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Doug Winter acquires the Paquet Double Eagle for $1.645M
Boosibri
Posts: 12,400 ✭✭✭✭✭
Boosibri
Posts: 12,400 ✭✭✭✭✭
Comments
<< <i>Hits on the cheek bother really me. All I see. >>
Not really fair when there are only 2 known.
<< <i>Paquet $20 sells for $1.645M
Cool purchase and write-up >>
With the low numbers of some of the newps you post yourself I'm more surprised you didn't buy it
Check out:
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References: USMarine6,Commoncents05,Timbuk3, lunytune2,Goldcoin98, and many more
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<< <i>Hits on the cheek bother really me. All I see. >>
Not really fair when there are only 2 known. >>
Congrats to Doug for buying the worst known example!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Hits on the cheek bother really me. All I see. >>
Not really fair when there are only 2 known. >>
Congrats to Doug for buying the worst known example! >>
Yeah, some of these prices for low ball set coins is getting out of hand.
Congrats to all involved.
Joseph J. Singleton - First Superintendent of the U.S. Branch Mint in Dahlonega Georgia
Findley Ridge Collection
About Findley Ridge
happening in Numismatics.
<< <i>Hits on the cheek bother really me. All I see. >>
All I see is blazing mint luster....on a pop 2 coin.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Given the comments, it's a good thing the reverse is face up in the slab now
Though the obverse hits didn't look so big in the 2006 photos
<< <i>Those to include the s mint coins have captured my attention ever since being a little boy flipping through the red book >>
OK, below is my s mint Paquet Double Eagle for comparison. While obviously not as rare, the "story" that accompanied how any of the San Francisco minted Paquets slipped into circulation, and remained unrecognized as collectable coins for decades, is itself
noteworthy. (Included in "the story" was the Pony Express and its role at the time with regard to transcontinental communication predating the extension of telegraph lines west of St. Joseph, Missouri - historical facts that delayed the message to the distant San
Francisco Mint to stop production and not proceed with circulation. Their lack of recognition for decades has resulted in no known mint state examples surviving.)
Below is a link to "the rest of 'the story'" regarding the Pony Express and its role with regard to the s mint Paquet coins.
With regard to the OP's post, certainly newsworthy, but in real dollar value wasn't the 2006 ANA Heritage auction sale of this same coin at $1,610,000.00 much higher than the 2014 sale for only $35,000.00 more in numerical dollars? I assume the same owner did
not hold the coin for the eight year interval, but if he had it would have in investment terms represented a significant loss just based on what $1,610,000.00 would now be worth at prevailing money market rates during that time period.
It would appear that the new owner certainly got a good value and Doug did well for his client to pick up this rarity at what was relatively a bargain price based on the 2006 sale.
The Pony Express and it role in the existance of the San Francisco minted Paquet Double Eagle
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<< <i>
<< <i>Hits on the cheek bother really me. All I see. >>
Not really fair when there are only 2 known. >>
Congrats to Doug for buying the worst known example! >>
Mike
Come on and think about it.
Ferrari GTO's selling at 52 million dollars, paintings selling for well over 100 million dollars?
At least with a rare coin, it is small enough that you can take it with you or stash it if the world errupts into chaos again.
1.6 million dollars for a scratched gold coin?
Well, OK, it may be only the second finest known...but of how many...2?
Uh... with or without any streach of the coin collector grey matter muscle, that is one seriously rare coin, and without doubt a real collectible gem.
Maybe it is the manipulations and shennanigans of a few coin brokers trying to corner the market that is holding rare coin values from reaching their full potential.
Me thinks that the unregulated grading services and closed off dealer networks have not legitimized the trading and value of rare coins.
Not so long ago, your stock market broker would shaft you out of 10% or so on a buy or sell order.
Nowadays, with the advent of computer networks and increased competetion, you can buy and sell those same stocks and bonds thru a broker with commisions of fractions of a percent.
These days, charging 15-20% to sell any certified coin is a flat out rip off, and it looks like price fixing to me.
Oh well, I digress.
Nice rare gold piece and a numismatic prize.
Now if I could just afford that 20% sales commission.
52 Million Dollar Ferrari
Congrats to Doug!
<< <i>Was Doug the buyer or really just the buyers agent? Guess it doesn't matter. >>
Fair question though. The reporting is ambiguous on the point.
Although Doug is a brilliant numismatist and a fair-minded dealer, anyone who writes a report about a coin that he bought may tend to provide a glowing review of it. In contrast, I put forth a balanced report.
Million Dollar Coins in ANA Auctions, Part 1
Neca63: <<Rare coins may be seriously undervalued...relatively>>
I agree. There are a large number of paintings and some other collectibles that have sold for more than $10m each.
In 2010, a bronze scultpure by Albert Giacometti sold for about US$104.3 million.
The Top Ten Auction Records for Coins & Patterns
<< <i>Million Dollar Coins in ANA Auctions, Part 1 >>
Nice background on the Dallas Bank Paquet.
"After some Double Eagles with the Paquet reverse design were made, U.S. Mint officials canceled the adoption of Paquet’s modified reverse design. It was decided that the reverse design would not be changed.
Early in 1861, U. S. Mint officials in Philadelphia sent orders to the New Orleans and San Francisco Branch Mints to not use reverse dies with Paquet’s design. By the time that such an order was received in San Francisco, thousands of 1861-S Double Eagles, with the Paquet reverse design, had already been minted and more than
one hundred now survive. I have never seen or heard a reference to an 1861-O Double Eagle with a Paquet reverse."
It was also interesting to note the differences in grades between the reverse and obverse of the coin subject of this thread. It seems a case could be made though that as to the Paquets the grade of the reverse should carry more weight than the grade of the obverse when arriving at a net grade for the full coin - simply because
of the significance of the reverse on the Paquets. That may help explain why the subject coin now carries a MS grade rather than its previous AU.
It is of further interest to read your confirmation that the subject coin has been cleaned. Impliedly its rarity trumps its having landed in a details holder as a more available coin may well have been relegated.
(For what it is worth, my San Francisco minted Paquet pictured in a prior post on this thread also appears to have a reverse that is somewhat comparatively superior to its obverse - though at least its obverse does not have the troubling gouge marks as on the cheek and neck of the Philadelphia minted specimen.)
<< <i>Rare coins may be seriously undervalued...relatively >>
WTF . . . A damn Comic Book Is going to blow this coin's price out of the water ! ! !
HH
1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S.
Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
<< <i>Although Doug is a brilliant numismatist and a fair-minded dealer, anyone who writes a report about a coin that he bought may tend to provide a glowing review of it. In contrast, I put forth a balanced report.
Million Dollar Coins in ANA Auctions, Part 1
Neca63: <<Rare coins may be seriously undervalued...relatively>>
I agree. There are a large number of paintings and some other collectibles that have sold for more than $10m each.
In 2010, a bronze scultpure by Albert Giacometti sold for about US$104.3 million.
The Top Ten Auction Records for Coins & Patterns >>
Informative post, Analyst. I found the comment by Alan Weinberg to be very interesting where he and others believe that the market has topped out for the time being, along with a shortage of cash flow and a concern about the price structure of rare coins.
<< <i>
<< <i>Although Doug is a brilliant numismatist and a fair-minded dealer, anyone who writes a report about a coin that he bought may tend to provide a glowing review of it. In contrast, I put forth a balanced report.
Million Dollar Coins in ANA Auctions, Part 1
Neca63: <<Rare coins may be seriously undervalued...relatively>>
I agree. There are a large number of paintings and some other collectibles that have sold for more than $10m each.
In 2010, a bronze scultpure by Albert Giacometti sold for about US$104.3 million.
The Top Ten Auction Records for Coins & Patterns >>
Informative post, Analyst. I found the comment by Alan Weinberg to be very interesting where he and others believe that the market has topped out for the time being, along with a shortage of cash flow and a concern about the price structure of rare coins. >>
I understand the argument about paintings and comic books selling for millions as an implication that rare coins are undervalued. To bolster that argument though we would need to do a market value comparison over time. I suspect the value of a Picasso or Monet has been more consistently upward over time than it has been for most rare coins. Probably also true for the rare comic
books. The recent auction result for the rare coin subject of this thread actually demonstrates how stagnant the valuation of the coin in question has been for the past decade. As noted in one of my prior posts on this thread the recent auction sale was in terms of real dollar value a big drop despite the numeric increase by a mere $30,000 or so.
<< <i>I found the comment by Alan Weinberg to be very interesting where he and others believe that the market has topped out for the time being, along with a shortage of cash flow and a concern about the price structure of rare coins. >>
I just read that comment and found it well worth reading. It matched my observations on this record price sale and other speculation on the current market.
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<< <i>I found the comment by Alan Weinberg to be very interesting where he and others believe that the market has topped out for the time being, along with a shortage of cash flow and a concern about the price structure of rare coins. >>
I just read that comment and found it well worth reading. It matched my observations on this record price sale and other speculation on the current market. >>
Of course "time being" could just be until the next FUN auction in January duplicating some of the record setting rare coin prices that FUN brought us this year.
Too bad.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
A hope well 55: <<I found the comment by Alan Weinberg to be very interesting where he and others believe that the market has topped out for the time being, along with a shortage of cash flow and a concern about the price structure of rare coins. >>
I have a great deal of respect for Alan Weinberg. He is one of the most honest, experienced and dedicated collectors. Even so, his comment was misleading. Price for rare U.S. coins have been, more or less, the same for the last four years. Some rarities have risen in value and other U.S. rarities have dropped over this time period. Even so, the trend line has been generally unchanged. The results of ANA auctions were not, on the whole, indicative of a drop in value in rarities. Since prices for every expensive rarities have been, more or less, the same for years, Alan's remark that these have "topped out," while true in a sense, is misleading. There is not evidence now of a downward trend. Please read part 2.
Million Dollar Coins in ANA Auctions, part 2, with interpretation of Specimen designations
... along with a shortage of cash flow and a concern about the price structure of rare coins. >>
There is no shortage of cash flow at this time. Consider the vast sums that were spent at the recent Newman sales, the Winter FUN and CSNS auctions, and the Gardner I sale in June. There are enormous sums being spent on rare coins.
The results of the ANA auctions relate to the characteristics of the individual coins that were auctioned. Also, if the two Class One 1804 dollars in the Pogue collection were not hovering in the sky presumably waiting to land, then the Garrett 1804 would probably have realized a much higher price on Aug. 6, 2014.
I have been analyzing auction results for many years and I am not aware of any particular current "concern about the price structure of rare coins. ">> Who is concerned? There are always players who say that prices will go down, even when they were rapidly rising from 2003 to 2007. I know one veteran dealer in rarities who, in 2004, said that prices were too high. They have more than doubled since 2004. I am not saying that prices for rarities overall will rise. I am saying that there is no evidence that they have dropped or will soon drop.
Johnny: <<a nice coin but thats an awful lot of money being spent on a beat up coin like that ...>>
There are only two known Philadelphia Mint Double Eagles with the Paquet reverse, and it is a famous variety. Since so many different coins have surpassed the million dollar threshold, it should not be surprising that this is one of them. The owner of the Norweb piece, who I know, is probably asking multiples of this auction result for his Philadelphia Paquet, if it is for sale.
NorthCoin: <<... the recent auction sale was in terms of real dollar value a big drop despite the numeric increase by a mere $30,000 or so. >>
Well, no, the result in Aug. 2006 was probably strong, significantly higher than the market values that prevailed at that time. The current result may just be a fair market value, a modest result. Moreover, the unusual nature of the Philly Paquet issue is such that these two coins cannot serve as any kind of barometer for markets for famous rarities. Please read again my analysis in part 1.
Million Dollar Coins in ANA Auctions, Part 1
Northcoin: <<It is of further interest to read your confirmation that the subject coin has been cleaned. Impliedly its rarity trumps its having landed in a details holder as a more available coin may well have been relegated. >>
The vast majority of AU-50 to MS-66 grade 19th century coins have been cleaned or dipped or both at one time or another. More than 90% of cleaned coins are gradable in accordance with PCGS standards, regardless of their respective rarity. Pre-1807 coins and pioneer gold coins often receive special consideration. If "the subject coin" received special consideration from PCGS, and I am not suggesting that it did, such consideration has nothing to do with the reality that the obverse has been cleaned. A common variety Liberty Double Eagle that had been cleaned in the same way would be gradable, if it has no serious problems.
The gashes on Miss Liberty's face are the serious issue with the Dallas Bank, Philly Paquet Double Eagle. Whether these gashes render the coin ungradable is a matter about which I am not commenting here. Note that several very much 'beat up' 1856-O Double Eagles are widely held to be gradable. Also, the reverse of "the subject coin" grades 63+ or 64-minus. It should not be surprising that the whole coin is judged to be gradable.
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Northcoin: <<It is of further interest to read your confirmation that the subject coin has been cleaned. Impliedly its rarity trumps its having landed in a details holder as a more available coin may well have been relegated. >>
The vast majority of AU-50 to MS-66 grade 19th century coins have been cleaned or dipped or both at one time or another. More than 90% of cleaned coins are gradable in accordance with PCGS standards, regardless of their respective rarity. Pre-1807 coins and pioneer gold coins often receive special consideration. If "the subject coin" received special consideration from PCGS, and I am not suggesting that it did, such consideration has nothing to do with the reality that the obverse has been cleaned. A common variety Liberty Double Eagle that had been cleaned in the same way would be gradable, if it has no serious problems.
The gashes on Miss Liberty's face are the serious issue with the Dallas Bank, Philly Paquet Double Eagle. Whether these gashes render the coin ungradable is a matter about which I am not commenting here. Note that several very much 'beat up' 1856-O Double Eagles are widely held to be gradable. Also, the reverse of "the subject coin" grades 63+ or 64-minus. It should not be surprising that the whole coin is judged to be gradable. >>
Thanks for taking the time to elaborate and explain how cleaned coins are in many instances (if not the majority for 19th century ones) gradable "in accordance with PCGS standards." It would be informative to identify just what those standards are and how they compare to NGC, ANACS, and CAC grading standards for cleaned coins - especially with regard to gold coins.
Also appreciated your further comments regarding the "whole coin" being pulled up by one side being superior. Do these grading services acknowledge that they in fact net grade despite not noting same on the holders as one often sees on ANACS holders?
Northcoin: <<Thanks for taking the time to elaborate and explain how cleaned coins are in many instances (if not the majority for 19th century ones) gradable "in accordance with PCGS standards.">>
My statement in this regard is not controversial. There are thousands of 19th century coins, with hairlines due to cleaning, in PCGS or NGC holders with numerical grades. There are also other kinds of cleaning, which do not leave noticeable hairlines. Typically, a severe cleaning will prevent a coin from receiving a numerical grade from PCGS.
NorthCoin: <<Also appreciated your further comments regarding the "whole coin" being pulled up by one side being superior.
It is not controversial to point out that the obverse counts more heavily than the reverse in a determination of an overall grade of a coin. My theory, which I have often mentioned in my articles, that the obverse counts for two-thirds and the reverse for one-third is my own interpretation of grading practices; it is not the stated policy of PCGS or NGC. Indeed, I know experts who disagree. Please regard that as my theory.
It is not fair to the graders at PCGS for us to assume that "the subject coin" received some kind of special consideration. IF PCGS graders found the obverse to be MS-60 and the reverse to be MS-63+ or MS-64, then an overall grade of MS-61 would then be fair and sensible. I emphasize the word "IF" here; I do not know who graded the coin at PCGS or what exactly the pertinent graders were thinking. Interested collectors should ask David Hall or Don Willis about PCGS grading practices. I have never been in 'the grading room' at PCGS.
NorthCoin: <<Do these grading services acknowledge that they in fact net grade despite not noting same on the holders ...?
When Ron Guth was president of PCGS, there was a monthly 'print' magazine. In some or all issues, there was a policy statement and explanation regarding the use of net grading by PCGS. Today, I could not find this same statement on the PCGS web site, though it could possibly be there. It may not be indicative of current policy. Again, it would make sense to ask David Hall, Don Willis or Ron Guth about PCGS policies, not me. I can reflect upon the characteristics of many of the thousands of 19th century coins that I have seen in PCGS holders.
I cite that past statement in at least one of my articles:
“The Riverboat Collection” of Private & Territorial gold coins
All 1913 5c, all 1804 $1 Restrikes. There are a series of declining sale prices. Look at some of the Jung coins and the disappointments there.
Shall we remember that the "market" for these coins is likely less than 10 players. JA's bought two 1804's from Heritage auctions in the last three or four years in the $2.3M range and the Queller piece went sideways at roughly $3.5M. Not as many people "need" one any more.
On the other hand, MS67 High Reliefs seem stable.
Anyone with other examples that fully illustrate these seemingly contradictory points? Micro-markets at that, not even niches.
About nice reverses raising grades..... so far off, it's silly.
https://coins.ha.com/itm/liberty-double-eagles/double-eagles/coming-soon-pcgs-8933-/p/1333-93001.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515
The owner's valuation (as stated on this Forum) - $10,000,000.
Will it be sold unreserved?
Absent the 1849, the all-time coolest $20 Lib. Glad I was sitting down when I held it raw at Norweb lot viewing.
a white whale, or is it a unicorn? pretty amazing either way.
those mint workers sure did work over the obv die. just love ha's zoom feature. best in the land i've seen for numismatics, even if they'd made it more difficult to drag images from the zoom window like a lot of other sites have done.
Certainly a rare variety with considerable effort put into its documentation and research, but I would be very surprised if it sold for $10m today.
Still laughing
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Kudos to Doug. It's wonderful to have a passion and especially wonderful if you have the resources to pursue that passion.
The double eagle- 4.5 mil hammer
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
I remember how proud Emory Mae Norweb was when she showed me her 1861 Paquet $20 back in 1971 in Cleveland, Ohio.
I remember her remarking how it was the 110th anniversary of the minting of this coin. She joked that it was a little anniversary after the big 100th anniversary 10 years before.
Now we are up to the 160th anniversary.
Beautiful gold coin...
Should be interesting to watch the bidding on this one. Cheers, RickO
Who is the owner and where did he value it at $10,000,000? Thanks
Privaterarecoincollector. In a thread on this forum. Couldn’t find it with the search feature
@Gazes -
@privaterarecoincollector - Oliver Jung - a thread here a month or two ago proclaiming a most rightful delight and pride of ownership.
edited to add: I'd appreciate hearing much more about @oreville's meeting with Emory Mae Norweb
Thanks @tradedollarnut and @ColonelJessup
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1054593/in-the-meanwhile
Sorry it was 50 years ago and I was barely 18 years old as a freshmen at Case Western Reserve University and really wanted to become a vest pocket dealer. I was really into uncirculated 20th century coinage at the time plus and so excited about the new Eisenhower clad dollars which were just released. So when I accidentally met the Norwebs at the bank vault department they showed me a world of coins I did not yet fully understand or appreciate.