Does this look like some e-bay fraud?

agentjim007 · October 9, 2002 7:59AM

Looks like the same coin to me. e-bay 1799 $
check out the NGC 55 1799 $

goose3 · October 9, 2002 8:03AM

Hey, you're back.

that sure looks the same to me. Call David Lawrence and ask them to look at it!!!!!!!

the toning on the lady is the same and the dirt in the letters on the reverse is identical!!!!!!!

airplanenut · October 9, 2002 8:03AM

Here's the link to the item at DLRC- 1799 AU55

Looks suspicious...

agentjim007 · October 9, 2002 8:05AM

Its the same coin. Many marks and toning spots match up and the ones that don't are a tilt in the coin that doesn't show certain marks.

goose3 · October 9, 2002 8:06AM

You going to call DLRC?

Russ · October 9, 2002 8:09AM

It's the same coin. Looks like the seller did some editing of the right field on the obverse to get rid of the ticks. But, that reverse certainly gives it away.

Yep, the stench in this auction is pretty strong.

Russ, NCNE

agentjim007 · October 9, 2002 8:09AM

I just sent them an e-mail with link to the auction.

agentjim007 · October 9, 2002 8:11AM

I don't think he edited. Many scratches and ticks can be hidden by tilting a coin a certain way.

Russ · October 9, 2002 8:14AM

<< Many scratches and ticks can be hidden by tilting a coin a certain way. >>

True. But, if that's the case, it would mean the seller actually possesses the coin to do the pics. If he does, than why would this be fraud?

Russ, NCNE

Clankeye · October 9, 2002 8:14AM

Way to go Jim. That situation looks like it needs a real hard look.
Welcome back. Glad you're here.

AgentJim--- he's back, he's bad, he's better than ever.

Outhaul · October 9, 2002 8:21AM

Overlapped both of them on Paintshop Pro and they're a dead match, pixel for pixel. This other guy is a zero on eBay, so that may tell you something. Looks like 007 is on the alert, good catch.

Cheers,

Bob

abuell · October 9, 2002 8:27AM

Zero feedback and private auctions! Check out the seller's other auctions!!!!!

goose3 · October 9, 2002 8:28AM

LOOK AT THESE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Russ · October 9, 2002 8:30AM

What do you want to bet that if you did a little research, you'd find that sellers other auction scans at coin dealer sites just like the first one.

Russ, NCNE

MadMarty · October 9, 2002 8:34AM

Would you send $65,000 to a seller with 0 feedback.... I don't think so, but someone will and get taken

Russ · October 9, 2002 8:44AM

Full "BARS"? I don't know anything about Mercs, but isn't it "bands"?

Russ, NCNE

coinguy1 · October 9, 2002 8:51AM

Gentlemen, I'd appreciate your thougts, opinions and suggestions - after reading your posts and looking at the seller's list of coins, I suspect that he is "offering" some coins that we own. Among them are: the 1807 $5 , the 1857 25c, the 1876 1c, the 1880 $1, the 1881 1c and the 1883 $5 and the 1923-S 25c. Some appear to be fairly easy matches and others are somewhat iffy. How can we stop this guy?

airplanenut · October 9, 2002 8:51AM

<< Full "BARS"? I don't know anything about Mercs, but isn't it "bands"? Russ, NCNE >>

He must not have had room for the last letter, so he made up a new term!

Rover · October 9, 2002 8:55AM

I am drafting an email to ebay right now. It has his auctions compared with links to the real sales venues. As you find matches post them or PM me and I will add them to the letter.
Matches so far:
1799 Draped Bust Dollar AU55
1807 Capped Bust Half Eagle MS64 $5 Gold
1880 Trade Dollar Proof 65 Cameo
1853 Seated Quarter Arr./Rays Rev. MS64

Let's get him NARU'd by midnight.....
Dan

Russ · October 9, 2002 8:58AM

BAM! Here's another one swiped from DLRC:

1880 PR65CAM Trade Dollar.

Same coin at DLRC.

Russ, NCNE

agentjim007 · October 9, 2002 8:58AM

Russ..excellent point about him needing the coin to tilt out certain marks. I was going the wrong way with that. Still its the same coin and it must be picture quality or something that keeps certain marks from showing up.

Rover · October 9, 2002 9:02AM

Good, keep em coming!

geb209 · October 9, 2002 9:03AM

And another:

Ebay

Larry Whitlow

Sad.

coinguy1 · October 9, 2002 9:04AM

Dan, please see list of Pinnacle Rarities' coins I suspect should be included - my post is two above yours. Thanks,Mark

keets · October 9, 2002 9:06AM

getting past all the police work, this time period was an interesting one for our coinage. does anyone else notice the change on the reverse and understand what it was all about?

al h.

Russ · October 9, 2002 9:09AM

<< does anyone else notice the change on the reverse and understand what it was all about? >>

We changed from warmongers to peaceniks.

Russ, NCNE

coinguy1 · October 9, 2002 9:12AM

In the mean time, Pinnacle has sent a message to Ebay (without any real expectation that they will act upon it) and I sent the following message to the seller:

Dear seller,

Please be advised of the following: It is obvious that you are "offering" items for sale which do not belong to you and that you have misappropriated images from the web sites of various rare coin dealers who are now in contact with each other. If your so called "sales" are not canceled by noon tomorrow, Thursday, October 10, you will be reported to the appropriate authorities. And, we don't simply mean Ebay fraud protection. We are all too familiar with your type and we know exactly what to do.

Sincerely,
Mark

Rover · October 9, 2002 9:13AM

Mark, I looked at the following and am not sure they are the same pic:
1923-S 25c
1857 25c

Maybe somebody with better software like Photoshop can darken the image.

I am confident that the 1807 Capped Bust Half Eagle MS64 $5 Gold is a match. Of the 3 matches so far they look to have almost no manipulation of the image.
Seems strange he would manipulate some and not others.... I could be wrong.
D.

airplanenut · October 9, 2002 9:15AM

DLRC is emailing eBay- they just replied to my email.

Jeremy

Tonelover · October 9, 2002 9:15AM

Mark, pretty straight to the point. For some reason I don't think he's going to be around for very long. I'm keeping an eye on his closed auctions. SInce he's using a Buy it Now option, someone looking for a deal is likely to pounce before he gets shut down.

Rover · October 9, 2002 9:18AM

This is what I sent:

Subject: FRAUD ALERT---Seller "masterful-collections"

Seller masterful-collections has listed numerous expensive and VERY rare coins that are ALSO listed for sale at legitimate auction houses or rare coin dealers. I have listed just a few examples below (his auction followed by a link to where the REAL coin is being sold). You can see that he is using the exact same picture as the legitimate sales venues:

1799 Draped Bust Dollar AU55
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1387543415
is being sold at
http://www.davidlawrence.com/coins/viewcoin.cfm?Inventory=54997

1807 Capped Bust Half Eagle MS64 $5 Gold
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1387543442
is being sold at
http://www.pinnacle-rarities.com/inventory.html#halfeagles

1880 Trade Dollar Proof 65 Cameo
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1387543951
can be found at
http://www.davidlawrence.com/coins/viewcoin.cfm?Inventory=55001

1853 Seated Quarter Arr./Rays Rev. MS64
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1387543536
can be found at
http://www.whitlowltd.com/cgi-bin/getPic.pl?c=52704

I could keep going, but this should suffice.
Thanks
Dan Bachman
ebay user cardston

Somebody start a stopwatch.....

keets · October 9, 2002 9:22AM

actually it's the other way around, russ. they switched the arrows into the right foot in 1797 to let the world----the british, mostly----know that we were more than willing to fight. we relented after awhile and switched back to seeking peace first with a resolve to fight secondary around 1807-8. if you remember, at the time we were still struggling with the french and british for control of the continent. in hindsight, if you consider that we fought the british a few years later, we acted a little prematurely.

i think it's a good example of what our coinage should depict instead of the politically correct type of stuff and the cutesy state quarter type designs. it's a very good medium for a world message with historical precedent.

al h.

geb209 · October 9, 2002 9:22AM

Looks the same (altered photo?):

Ebay

JJTeaparty

agentjim007 · October 9, 2002 9:25AM

Just thinking, should I go hit all his BIN's so he gets a monster e-bay bill?

Russ · October 9, 2002 9:25AM

geb209,

Yep, that's the same FE. The reverse gives it away.

Russ, NCNE

Russ · October 9, 2002 9:26AM

<< Just thinking, should I go hit all his BIN's so he gets a monster e-bay bill? >>

Nah, than eBay wouldn't nuke him because they'd want the revenue.

Russ, NCNE

coinguy1 · October 9, 2002 9:31AM

Dan, you are right about the 1857 25c not being a match. I believe that the 1923-S 25c is ours, though. See small spot on "I" in "UNITED" on reverse. Aslo, the guy at our office who does our imaging believes that the 1880 Morgan $1, the 1883 $5 proof, the 1807 $5 and the 1893-CC $20 match. I'm also fairly confident about the 1876 1c and the 1881 1c.

Outhaul · October 9, 2002 9:36AM

He has a bid on one coin. I looked at the auction and it is private, bidders not revealed. Think he doesn't want anyone alerting his bidders?

1799

Russ · October 9, 2002 9:39AM

I have a hunch that somebody in this thread bid on that coin just to keep track of things.

Russ, NCNE

abuell · October 9, 2002 9:39AM

I just seller the following email:

I notice that the your picture of the 1799 $ is also used on the David Lawrence Rare Coins web site. Also, pictures of other coins that you are currently offering are from coin dealer web sites - specifically, Pinnacle Rarities, JJ Teaparty, David Lawrence and Larry Whitlow, just to name a few. Just thought that you might like to know.

Sincerely, abuell

toothpuller · October 9, 2002 9:40AM

Shouldn't this be a police matter, not an ebay matter. Ebay most likely won't do anything but NARU the seller .

Mark at Pinnacle since you are somewhat of a victim, as your images are being used to commit fraud, maybe you should contact your local police. By the way, I bought the 1902 MS65RD IHC from your website about an hour and a half ago. Was it really there? Just kidding, but I really did buy the coin.

lordmarcovan · October 9, 2002 9:42AM

Rover · October 9, 2002 9:43AM

Just got this from ebay:

Thank you for taking time to notify us about these items. We appreciate your efforts in helping us maintain a safe trading environment.

eBay wants you to know that the following items have been reported and are under investigation:
1387543415
1387543442
1387543951
1387543536

blah, blah, blah.....

mark-I think you are right on the others.

Dan

Russ · October 9, 2002 9:44AM

<< Shouldn't this be a police matter, not an ebay matter. >>

Toothpuller,

I doubt the police would be interested at this point. Technically, he hasn't committed a crime until a transaction occurs. All he's done at this point is borrow scans without permission which is, at worst, a civil offense, not a criminal matter.

Russ, NCNE

Rover · October 9, 2002 9:47AM

somebody just got outbid...

coinguy1 · October 9, 2002 9:53AM

toothpuller - I don't think it would be a local matter because the guy is most likely doing his dirty work from out of state.

Regarding the Indian cent - I haven't seen it in 12 days. But, if memory serves me correctly, it was a solid 63 and fully red, too!. Oops, it's in a 65 holder? Just pulling your leg, tooth or whatever. Actually, I liked it a lot and hope you do too.

dorkkarl · October 9, 2002 9:59AM

(to avoid confusion, removed my WRONG ASSERTION about these being different coins)

K S

toothpuller · October 9, 2002 10:04AM

The BINs on those Indian Heads are ridiculously low. No one would sell those coins at those prices.

dorkkarl · October 9, 2002 10:05AM

(to avoid confusion, removed my gibberish about these being different coins)

K S

coinguy1 · October 9, 2002 10:11AM

KS - we are not talking about just two coins. You say you read the thread - what are your opinions on the other coins discussed?

Russ · October 9, 2002 10:16AM

Karl,

They are the same coins. For a smart guy, you're sure blowing it this time.

Russ, NCNE

Does this look like some e-bay fraud?

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