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Pogue collection
rkp
Posts: 450 ✭✭✭
Hi,
It looks like the Pogue collection will be sold over the next few years: Pogue sale announcement
Was this previously announced? More importantly, between 2013 - 2017 there will be a HUGE volume of the finest coins changing hands. Some of the biggest players are liquidating their coin holdings. Is the timing pure coincidence or does it speak to something larger than that - is the smart money getting out of the hobby? (To be clear, the value of my entire collection would probably not be enough to buy the worst coin in this collection).
It looks like the Pogue collection will be sold over the next few years: Pogue sale announcement
Was this previously announced? More importantly, between 2013 - 2017 there will be a HUGE volume of the finest coins changing hands. Some of the biggest players are liquidating their coin holdings. Is the timing pure coincidence or does it speak to something larger than that - is the smart money getting out of the hobby? (To be clear, the value of my entire collection would probably not be enough to buy the worst coin in this collection).
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Latin American Collection
Some pretty big collectors exiting the market... I would love to see a market analysis right now and see if there is a correlation between S&P highs and coin market highs... Kind of like S&P and NYC real estate.
Anyway... WOW
Sorry... please pass the towel so that I can clean up the drool
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Check out some of my 1794 Large Cents on www.coingallery.org
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>This is surprising news. >>
Indeed! Just a year ago, Pogue was bidding on the 1794 Carter dollar.
With respect to the coin market and where is it heading - I think its only going up over a long time. There are well documented studies in business that shows collector of artwork, cars, coins and other collectibles that many high powered collections have a 25 year or so life. Think back, 25 years ago (more or less) and we saw the Eliasberg, Norweb, Garrett and Pittman collections sold. With time, the market absorbed these coins and years later many collectors chase them wonderful coins. I think the same will be the case for the Pogue, Gardner and Newman coins. I am thrilled and hope to see and hold each of these coins! Great times for us coin collectors and hope each and everyone one of us should hold, study and learn more about these great coins. I also, hope David Bowers will be writing several books on the collection!!!
For those that didn't have the chance to see, hold and learn about the Eliasberg, Garret and Norweb collections then here is your chance. Truly historic - take advantage of it!!!
Wow.
I didn't see that coming.
I can't believe that we all will have the opportunity to bid on those spectacular coins. When details and images of those coins come out, people who aren't familiar with that collection will be stunned.
But I can now confirm that it is apparently June, and that therefore this seems to be true.
Coin Rarities Online
<< <i>I am absolutely shocked that the Pogue collection is going to be sold.
Wow.
I didn't see that coming.
I can't believe that we all will have the opportunity to bid on those spectacular coins. When details and images of those coins come out, people who aren't familiar with that collection will be stunned. >>
I've been watching this collection build for the last 15+ years and have been astounded at what's gone into it. A few (minor) pieces that passed through my hands have ended up with them, though Joe O'Connor told me the 1821 25c they got from me (I owned it for several hours) was only the 4th finest known for the date. They've probably improved upon it by now. . . .
I personally both credit and blame TDN. Once the Cardinal '94 was wrested from their hands, it ripped the heart right out of them Pogues.
And now the Childs' 1804 will make his milestone purchase seem more "reasonable".
Double-whammy delivered by "shock and awe". . .
Think the Hayes-Whitney/Walter-Gardner 1796 10c PCGS MS67 PCGS CAC (everyone knows it's THE Specimen) will still bring a million bucks? It's a lot nicer than the Newman '96 25c MS67+ NGC,CAC (to me a let-down and third on the list of those I like) at approx. $1,500,000. I liked the Newman '95 Draped Bust $1 MS66+ NGC,CAC more at $800,000 or so, and that was more on quality than merely price. Every single one of these coins is apples and oranges to everything else, or you can see why it might or should be. But the market for sui generis, and its ersatz derivative, plop-top, really has very little to do with the coins most of us play with.
Just a fantasy that maybe Stacks-Bowers can pull an East-Coast rabbit out of their hats, being bi-Coastal themselves.
Phil Jackson and his long-time fiancé and Lakers exec Jeannie Buss at the Pogue sale. Jeannie, daughter of Dr. Jerry Buss, wants a keepsake to remind her of her Dad's collecting days. There being no 1913 V-nic available, she opts for the 1804 $1. Phil stands up and pulls a Pittman to subsequent world-wide attention. Yao Ming offers her an immediate 17.5% profit based on the frustration factor of not spending $1,000,000,000+ on the Clippers. Donald Trump announces a new round of financing for The Trump Collection based on his purchase of a highlight from the Pogue Collection. Better branding and all that, though the Trump Collection is maybe hotels or golf courses or ex-wives.
What are the Pogues worth? A cheesy $500,000,000 or so?
Let's get Steve Wynn to buy a coin! Look at what he's done for Renoir !
Back here on Earth, the scraps and crumbs, the third-finest knowns, will flood the market.
John Paulsen and George Soros will take opposite sides of a CDO swap based on the disposition of Saddle River gold.
A time of upheaval in the markets, just as Archimedes has suggested.
But damn! When you see the catalogues you will be ruined for life. . . .
Get in your order in early for leather-bound first editions.........
<< <i>I personally both credit and blame TDN. Once the Cardinal '94 was wrested from their hands, it ripped the heart right out of them Pogues.
And now the Childs' 1804 will make his milestone purchase seem more "reasonable".
Double-whammy delivered by "shock and awe" >>
lol
$5.25M Pogue underbid, love the look on Greg Rohan's face at 1:58
<< <i>Stunning news. With the Newman, Gardner and Pogue collections all being sold at roughly the same time, it seems like we're in the middle of a very special time in numismatic history. >>
Wonder what message the market is whispering to us.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>I personally both credit and blame TDN. Once the Cardinal '94 was wrested from their hands, it ripped the heart right out of them Pogues. >>
A brave new world of collecting is before us!
<< <i>I personally both credit and blame TDN. Once the Cardinal '94 was wrested from their hands, it ripped the heart right out of them Pogues. >>
I wonder if this is indeed the case. If I were building a set of the absolute finest known coins and knew I missed an opportunity to get one, now in strong hands and unwilling to let it go, I'd be pretty frustrated. Probably not angry enough myself to give up altogether but if I missed a couple others (maybe they weren't as successful as they wanted to be in some subsequent sales), I'd realize that my goal of building the absolute best set was becoming unreachable and perhaps cut my losses, having already accomplished a tremendous feat building the collection as-is.
<< <i>If I were building a set of the absolute finest known coins and knew I missed an opportunity to get one, now in strong hands and unwilling to let it go, I'd be pretty frustrated. >>
The TDN holdings tend to turn over frequently, by high end collection standards.
I wonder if this is indeed the case.
I doubt it. They already have a better one, even if it is just a plug-less business strike.
I can imagine many scenarios that might cause the Pogues to sell, but it's pure speculation. The one scenario I find most interesting - again, pure speculation and fantasy - is a Pogue family visit to Colorado Springs. Where, after thoroughly studying the Bass gold on display, they realized how much they might end up spending when that collection comes to market. Even the mighty get spooked sometimes.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Hmmmm - not sure where you came up with that but I think the Carter coin is pretty much universally acclaimed as finer than the Norweb coin
Don't the Pogues have the Rogers coin?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Hmmmm - not sure where you came up with that but I think the Carter coin is pretty much universally acclaimed as finer than the Norweb coin
Don't the Pogues have the Rogers coin? >>
No. They have the better of the two Norweb coins.
Carter/Cardinal's silver dollar much nicer.
I must be getting rusty. I only remember one Norweb coin, which was IIRC a fully white 64 with some trivial planchet issues.
And where are the St Oswald coins now?
If I were home, I'd just look it up myself. But I'm not, and I have to know right now!
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>No. They have the better of the two Norweb coins.
I must be getting rusty. I only remember one Norweb coin, which was IIRC a fully white 64 with some trivial planchet issues.
And where are the St Oswald coins now?
If I were home, I'd just look it up myself. But I'm not, and I have to know right now! >>
After the superb Neil-Carter-Lustig-Cardinal-TDN specimen strike example, the next 4 in the condition census are as follows:
The Col. Green-Lelan Rogers specimen is currently graded by PCGS as MS66+ and resides in the Stellar Collection.
The Lord St. Oswald-Ostheimer-Hayes specimen is currently graded by PCGS as MS66 and resides in the Pogue Collection. It was displayed with the Pogue Collection of Early Dollars at the 2001 ANA Show in Atlanta, and is neutral gray in toning, with some planchet issues.
The Lord St. Oswald-Norweb specimen is currently graded by PCGS as MS64 and resides in a West Coast collection. It is lightly toned in lavender shades and displays a number of small dark planchet pits on the portrait of Liberty.
The Boyd-Cardinal specimen had been graded by NGC as MS64 and was fully white with a couple minor planchet flakes. That coin is now graded by PCGS as MS63+, and resides with a Wall Street collector.
Not any more. It is blast white and frosty. I grade it an easy MS64+
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>The Lord St. Oswald-Norweb specimen is currently graded by PCGS as MS64 and resides in a West Coast collection. It is lightly toned in lavender shades and displays a number of small dark planchet pits on the portrait of Liberty.
Not any more. It is blast white and frosty. I grade it an easy MS64+ >>
What type of conservation brought about the perceived upgrade?
<< <i>The Lord St. Oswald-Norweb specimen is currently graded by PCGS as MS64 and resides in a West Coast collection. It is lightly toned in lavender shades and displays a number of small dark planchet pits on the portrait of Liberty.
Not any more. It is blast white and frosty. I grade it an easy MS64+ >>
Hmm...I examined it very closely under natural daylight last summer, and while the toning was light and the surfaces were quite frosty, it definitely was not blast white. Have you seen it since then?
<< <i>
<< <i>The Lord St. Oswald-Norweb specimen is currently graded by PCGS as MS64 and resides in a West Coast collection. It is lightly toned in lavender shades and displays a number of small dark planchet pits on the portrait of Liberty.
Not any more. It is blast white and frosty. I grade it an easy MS64+ >>
Hmm...I examined it very closely under natural daylight last summer, and while the toning was light and the surfaces were quite frosty, it definitely was not blast white. Have you seen it since then? >>
Nope, I saw it at Long Beach about three to four years ago. Its appearance at the time was that of a freshly dipped coin. My mistake, as you have seen it since. Surprising that the toning is coming back so quickly
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>When the Norweb coin was sold as part of the Norweb collection by B&M, it was "blast white" with dozens of trivial black planchet inclusions. Maybe the inclusions have since been removed, and maybe the coin subsequently toned. On the other hand, when you start about "the toning coming back", it makes me wonder if we're talking about the same coin, or if someone's not remembering something correctly. But like I said before, I'm rusty. >>
First let me correct a mis-statement of mine above - I meant to say the finer of the two St Oswald coins is what is owned by the Pogues.
Second - I'm looking at the Norweb Catalog and the 1794 is pictured on the cover in color. I wouldn't call the coin blast white in that picture but rather off white and the spots are extremely prominent. I remembered this fact when holding the coin at Long Beach and it struck me that they were nowhere to be seen. My conclusion, based upon the frosty whiteness of the coin and lack of spots, was that the coin had been freshly dipped. I thought it looked great - very much like that 1795 Draped Bust dollar that is now MS65+.
<< <i>the superb Neil-Carter-Lustig-Cardinal-TDN specimen strike >>
How come Col. Green isn't often mentioned in the provenance, not just here, but in many references?
Do we really know that the coin came from Col. Green? If so, how?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>How come Col. Green isn't often mentioned in the provenance, not just here, but in many references?
Do we really know that the coin came from Col. Green? If so, how? >>
If we don't know, why do some people think the coin came from Col. Green?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The Lord St. Oswald-Norweb specimen is currently graded by PCGS as MS64 and resides in a West Coast collection. It is lightly toned in lavender shades and displays a number of small dark planchet pits on the portrait of Liberty.
Not any more. It is blast white and frosty. I grade it an easy MS64+ >>
Hmm...I examined it very closely under natural daylight last summer, and while the toning was light and the surfaces were quite frosty, it definitely was not blast white. Have you seen it since then? >>
Nope, I saw it at Long Beach about three to four years ago. Its appearance at the time was that of a freshly dipped coin. My mistake, as you have seen it since. Surprising that the toning is coming back so quickly >>
That explains it! My experience has been that recently dipped early dollars will retone very rapidly. For example, following is the finest known example of a very rare die variety, a coin that I purchased in 1997. I later sold it privately in 1998. At the time I sold it, it had mottled toning. The new owner had it professionally conserved (dipped), and then it began retoning.
This is how it looked when it was auctioned in 2002, 4 years after dipping. (The photo shows that the coin toned, but the colors did not show up in the picture.) :
And this is how it looked when it was TrueViewed in 2009, 11 years after dipping:
The toning came back in a fairly short amount of time (11 years) and very attractively at that!
<< <i>
<< <i>the superb Neil-Carter-Lustig-Cardinal-TDN specimen strike >>
How come Col. Green isn't often mentioned in the provenance, not just here, but in many references? >>
I did not list Col. Green in the pedigree of the Specimen 1794 Dollar, because Col. Green never owned it!
Col. Green owned a total of 11 1794 dollars, the best of which is the one I labeled as the Col. Green-Lelan Rogers-Stellar specimen. During the research of the Specimen 1794 Dollar, John Dannreuther asked Eric Newman if he recalled having seen the Specimen coin among the Col. Green holdings. He responded confidently that he would have remembered the Specimen coin and it was NOT among the Col. Green holdings.
I distinctly remember Norweb had two 1794 silver dollars in her collection! back in the 1970's. She had the choice uncirculated and a second one about uncirculated one.
Was the AU one sold or traded privately?
<< <i>Wait a minute!
I distinctly remember Norweb had two 1794 silver dollars in her collection! back in the 1970's. She had the choice uncirculated and a second one about uncirculated one.
Was the AU one sold or traded privately? >>
The Norweb family donated a circulated 1794 dollar to the American Numismatic Society. Perhaps that is the "second one" you are remembering.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>the superb Neil-Carter-Lustig-Cardinal-TDN specimen strike >>
How come Col. Green isn't often mentioned in the provenance, not just here, but in many references? >>
I did not list Col. Green in the pedigree of the Specimen 1794 Dollar, because Col. Green never owned it!
Col. Green owned a total of 11 1794 dollars, the best of which is the one I labeled as the Col. Green-Lelan Rogers-Stellar specimen. During the research of the Specimen 1794 Dollar, John Dannreuther asked Eric Newman if he recalled having seen the Specimen coin among the Col. Green holdings. He responded confidently that he would have remembered the Specimen coin and it was NOT among the Col. Green holdings. >>
A number of articles mention Col. Green including the following in 2010, when the coin was purchased by Cardinal. The Numismatic News is referenced by Wikipedia.
- "PCGS-Certified 1794 Dollar Sets World's Record". PCGS: May 21, 2010.
- "Dollar Sets Record Price". Numismatic News: 1, 38. 8 June 2010.
- "Rare 1794 Silver Dollar Sets World Record Price at $7.85 Million". Donn Pearlman Public Relations: May 20, 2010.
Wikipedia:
<< <i>In 2013, the finest known example, which was among the earliest coins struck and was prepared with special care, was sold in a private treaty sale for $10,016,875, the highest selling price of any coin in history.[23] The dollar was graded Specimen-66 by the Professional Coin Grading Service, noting the special conditions under which it was struck.[23] The coin, which had previously been owned by Colonel E.H.R. Green, was sold by Steven L. Contursi, president of Rare Coin Wholesalers, to the Cardinal Collection Educational Foundation of California.[23] Contursi said that the coin was a "national treasure" and that he was proud to have been its "custodian" since 2003.[23] Martin Logies, representative of the foundation that purchased the coin, said that of all the rarities he had seen, he believed that one was the "single most important of all".[23] >>
<< <i>Quite the conversation before us >>
+1
<< <i>Price Jumps for 1794 Silver Dollar
1794 silver dollar: By David L. Ganz, Numismatic News
May 28, 2010
Hi-Yo, away! The coin market came roaring back from its parallel with national economic malaise with the reported sale of a gem uncirculated 1794 silver dollar for a show stopping $7.8 million. The coin, which some believe is actually the very first silver dollar struck by the Philadelphia Mint, is graded as among the best uncirculated coins of that year to be discovered – now termed Specimen-66 by the Professional Coin Grading Service.
Two major studies on the elusive 1794 dollar, one by Jack Collins, the other by Martin Logies, each agree that the coin is the top of the condition census. Some earlier remarks by catalogers who handled it as well as the Lord St. Oswald specimen, acquired at the Philadelphia Mint in the fall of 1794, lean toward the other as superior.
In any case, the test of which grade is the greater is measured in infinitesimal calibrations – and the one owned by Steve Contursi (and formerly Amon Carter, Jr.) – makes the case for a spectacular history that goes back more than 60 years, and in the process shows how a true rarity has fared.
The coin that broke all prior records – including the previous high of $7.59 million for the King Farouk specimen of the 1933 $20 gold piece – makes its first modern appearance when Col. E.H.R. Green’s collection was acquired by Burdette G. Johnson and the St. Louis Stamp & Coin Company.
It next picks up in dealer James Kelly’s inventory on Fixed Price List No. 20 in 1945; collector C. David Pierce (who later was a professional with several auctions to his credit in Gengerke’s auction records) acquired the coin, and the following year, 1946, the Hollinbeck-Kagin Coin Company, Des Moines, Iowa, offered the Pierce collection in a February (Page 196) advertisement in The Numismatist, the American Numismatic Association’s monthly journal.
Abe Kosoff and Abner Kreisberg (Numismatic Gallery) next acquire the coin and sell it to Will W. Neil. The next year, 1947, B. Max Mehl of Fort Worth, Texas, sells the Neil collection at a mail- bid auction, where it realizes $1,250. The winning bidder: Amon Carter Sr. It stayed in the Carter family until his son, Amon Carter Jr. died and had his collection sold in 1984. Stack’s handled that sale at $264,000.
[...]
It’s not every day that a major rarity is sold, and it doesn’t always go up. The Neil-Carter-Contursi coin’s next auction appearance was in 1986 at the Hoagy Carmichael sale by Superior, where Anthony Terranova was the buyer at $209,000. It then evidently passed through several familiar hands: Ed Milas and Marvin Browder (for RARCOA), Andy Lustig (1988) at $375,000, and in 1991, Superior’s May, 1991 sale of “An Amazing Collection of U.S. Silver Dollars,” where it brought $506,000.
There were some intervening owners including Jay Parrino, but it is Steve Contursi who held it for the last several years, when he finally agreed to sell it to the Cardinal Educational Collection at $7,850,000. >>
Thanks. I did not know Norweb donated the second 1794 $1 to the ANS.
And now they're sellin their Coin Collection ? Wow, you just never know what a bunch of old Irish
Punkers have been into.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
How in the heck is the market going to absorb $250-300M worth of the best stuff EVER!
I am accumulating $ to be prepared for my daughter's eventual wedding.
I did not expect this either!
It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Surprised the home town auction firm did not get the deal.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"