<< <i> How in the heck is the market going to absorb $250-300M worth of the best stuff EVER! >>
Well, if I scrimp and save, I'm good for a couple grand if that will help.
But seriously....wouldn't they be best served by selling over a 5 or 8 year period? Let the big-buyers reload a couple of times, and keep the prices up....
<< <i>How in the heck is the market going to absorb $250-300M worth of the best stuff EVER! >>
TDN, you have just stated the most profound implication of the liquidation of this great collection. And along with the liquidation of the Gardner, Newman, and others the market will have to absorb a very large market valuation in a very short period of time. Perhaps this is a golden moment in history where great rarities can be purchased for 30-50% of prior valuation? I trust that you will also be a buyer like many of us, but also knowing that our great deals will be offset by even larger portfolio losses.
Absorbing $300,000,000 from one collection; not even considering that Heritage will likely find another $100,000,000 or $200,000,000 on top of that during the same time period!! The day to days issues of the classic coin market. The modern market only has to figure out how it is going to absorb (13) different 2014 Kennedy Half Dollars in the next six months
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
How in the heck is the market going to absorb $250-300M worth of the best stuff EVER!
When you consider that 80-90% of the value of this collection is in six and seven and maybe eight figure coins, the auctions are going to have very little impact on the vast majority of collectors, and the market for the coins that they collect. As for the small number of collectors that swim in these very deep waters, there may well be some bargains to be had. Tough to say.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
It's a collection I would put my life on hold to see and yes I would pay to see it as well. SB needs to put out the most amazing hard cover catalogues and charge through the teeth for them. Do it right.
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>How in the heck is the market going to absorb $250-300M worth of the best stuff EVER!
When you consider that 80-90% of the value of this collection is in six and seven and maybe eight figure coins, the auctions are going to have very little impact on the vast majority of collectors, and the market for the coins that they collect. As for the small number of collectors that swim in these very deep waters, there may well be some bargains to be had. Tough to say. >>
Andy - who do you think buys the duplicates of the people buying many of those coins.
<< <i>This is THE collection of United States early coinage. The only collection that I would pay to see. What an amazing mind blowing opportunity those of us who collect this stuff will have. I never expected this to come on the market in my lifetime.
How in the heck is the market going to absorb $250-300M worth of the best stuff EVER! >>
From the article: "It is anticipated that the collection will be sold over a series of auctions in New York City over the next several years."
This is amazing news. I can't wait to see the listings and the catalog. Anyone know if there is more "Modern" stuff in the collection like seated or Barber material?
It only stands to reason that anyone with enough money to "collect" at these levels is also smart enough to ....sense....when prices (not values) get ridiculously out of whack.
The current price levels for just AU (and not that pretty either) has gone beyond the pale and.....should.....give ANYONE who has been in the hobby for over a couple years reason to pause and consider whether a mediocre AU bust half dime should compel them to shell out over a thousand bucks.
For ....essentially.... a Dansco candidate.
I would expect that the market SHOULD take a breather. If not a widespread lightening of the load.
(I shouldn't post this as I still have some stuff left)
<< <i>Absorbing $300,000,000 from one collection; not even considering that Heritage will likely find another $100,000,000 or $200,000,000 on top of that during the same time period!! The day to days issues of the classic coin market. The modern market only has to figure out how it is going to absorb (13) different 2014 Kennedy Half Dollars in the next six months
Wondercoin >>
Not a lot of money in the upper stratosphere of the super wealthy.
My bad. If the collection will be sold over 2-3 years, make that probably another $1,000,000,000.00 in classics sold by Heritage during that period! Not to mention what I consign to Stacks. . Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>The Lord St. Oswald-Norweb specimen is currently graded by PCGS as MS64 and resides in a West Coast collection. It is lightly toned in lavender shades and displays a number of small dark planchet pits on the portrait of Liberty.
Not any more. It is blast white and frosty. I grade it an easy MS64+ >>
Hmm...I examined it very closely under natural daylight last summer, and while the toning was light and the surfaces were quite frosty, it definitely was not blast white. Have you seen it since then? >>
Nope, I saw it at Long Beach about three to four years ago. Its appearance at the time was that of a freshly dipped coin. My mistake, as you have seen it since. Surprising that the toning is coming back so quickly >>
That explains it! My experience has been that recently dipped early dollars will retone very rapidly. For example, following is the finest known example of a very rare die variety, a coin that I purchased in 1997. I later sold it privately in 1998. At the time I sold it, it had mottled toning. The new owner had it professionally conserved (dipped), and then it began retoning.
This is how it looked when it was auctioned in 2002, 4 years after dipping. (The photo shows that the coin toned, but the colors did not show up in the picture.) :
And this is how it looked when it was TrueViewed in 2009, 11 years after dipping:
The toning came back in a fairly short amount of time (11 years) and very attractively at that! >>
IMO -- If those images are each true-to-life, then the "conservation" and time haven't been kind to this old dollar.
<< <i>It only stands to reason that anyone with enough money to "collect" at these levels is also smart enough to ....sense....when prices (not values) get ridiculously out of whack.
The current price levels for just AU (and not that pretty either) has gone beyond the pale and.....should.....give ANYONE who has been in the hobby for over a couple years reason to pause and consider whether a mediocre AU bust half dime should compel them to shell out over a thousand bucks.
For ....essentially.... a Dansco candidate.
I would expect that the market SHOULD take a breather. If not a widespread lightening of the load.
(I shouldn't post this as I still have some stuff left)
NOT in that league though. >>
Meh. Stuff is always expensive when you look at it in the light of whatever you were used to as a youth. In the '50s when a house cost what it cost, a car cost what it cost, etc. did any old grumpuses then, grouse at you about how things "used to be" in their day?
Bust half dime for a dansco? How about no bust half dime whatsoever -- much more typical for today's collector.
<< <i>First off - congratulations to Stacks for landing probably the most famous collection currently owned! Next, I truly hope that Stacks offers an educational experience to collectors and non collectors on this collection. Over the years, I tried to follow the coins that this family acquired and this collection is truly one of the finest collection built over many many years. In my opinion, this is truly historic for us collectors just to learn about these special coins - even holding these coin are truly special and I hope each and everyone of us shares in this experience! With respect to the coin market and where is it heading - I think its only going up over a long time. There are well documented studies in business that shows collector of artwork, cars, coins and other collectibles that many high powered collections have a 25 year or so life. Think back, 25 years ago (more or less) and we saw the Eliasberg, Norweb, Garrett and Pittman collections sold. With time, the market absorbed these coins and years later many collectors chase them wonderful coins. I think the same will be the case for the Pogue, Gardner and Newman coins. I am thrilled and hope to see and hold each of these coins! Great times for us coin collectors and hope each and everyone one of us should hold, study and learn more about these great coins. I also, hope David Bowers will be writing several books on the collection!!!
For those that didn't have the chance to see, hold and learn about the Eliasberg, Garret and Norweb collections then here is your chance. Truly historic - take advantage of it!!! >>
So, how did the coin market react in the year or so after the Eliasberg, Norweb, Garrett and Pittman collections were sold? Was there a pullback / correction before prices started moving up again? History does not repeat itself, but it does happen in cycles.
Yorkshireman,Obsessed collector of round, metallic pieces of history.Hunting for Latin American colonial portraits plus cool US & British coins.
I see that Q David Bowers is writing two books on the Pogue Family Collection in conjunction with the sale. If I'm repeating the obvious I apologize as I missed it.
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>I have ca. 60 books by QDB, so another 1 or 2 won't hurt. My wife likes The Pogues, so the books better have LPs tucked in rear pockets. >>
That's going to go over most every bodies head. I like your wife already
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Great collections are always bought and sold. Sometimes they span generations. It will be nice to admire this collection in retrospect, after it is cataloged and sold.
It will be interesting to see how the coin sales play out.
I know very little about the set composition, except that it contains some fascinating rare and expensive pieces. But is everything super high end Grade A numismatic delicacies? Or do they have "normal" coins too? Do they have world or ancient coins?
I think one of the nice things about the Eliasberg, or, say, the Newman collection, is that it was so diverse as to offer something for everyone. I could never afford Eric Newman's early silver dollars, but I was able to pick up one of his English coins for $200. Similarly, Eliasberg's collection was so extensive, and included less valuable world coins, currency, and medals. I wonder if the Pogues collected "working men's" coins of not the highest numismatic rarity?
<< <i>And this is how it looked when it was TrueViewed in 2009, 11 years after dipping:
The toning came back in a fairly short amount of time (11 years) and very attractively at that!
IMO -- If those images are each true-to-life, then the "conservation" and time haven't been kind to this old dollar. >>
I don't believe either images are correct. Lance. >>
What do you mean by aren't correct? Many different photo appearances can all be "correct" based on lighting and other conditions. Do you mean the photos have been altered some how?
While others are quibbling about some particular image or another, my guess is that super-professsional imaging will be done for the disposition of this collection.
If it hasn't already been done.
They can afford Steiglitz and their own personal slabbing machines. I'm sure both TPG's would supply private services very similar to what is now done with re-holdering at public venues.
Expect the Pogues and Stacks to supply us with the same quality of online archive Gene Gardner has so lovingly prepared.
Pittman is vaunted for his humble start as epitomized by mortgaging his house to do Farouk. Gene will inform anyone who asks why he sold his first collection in 1965. Rather slyly, rather drily, he will relate that he agreed with his wife that they should live in a house. . . . . . .
He got back in. .
I expect a Professor Irwin Corey-like response from Forumites as to what it might signify about the direction of "the market" if Gene Gardner has his paddle up for Pogue goodies. . .
You? I? Special parking rates at selected convenient locations and all registered bidders get a pretty good box lunch at lot viewing. .
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
<< <i>While others are quibbling about some particular image or another, my guess is that super-professsional imaging will be done for the disposition of this collection.
If it hasn't already been done.
They can afford Steiglitz and their own personal slabbing machines. I'm sure both TPG's would supply private services very similar to what is now done with re-holdering at public venues.
Expect the Pogues and Stacks to supply us with the same quality of online archive Gene Gardner has so lovingly prepared.
Pittman is vaunted for his humble start as epitomized by mortgaging his house to do Farouk. Gene will inform anyone who asks why he sold his first collection in 1965. Rather slyly, rather drily, he will relate that he agreed with his wife that they should live in a house. . . . . . .
He got back in. .
I expect a Professor Irwin Corey-like response from Forumites as to what it might signify about the direction of "the market" if Gene Gardner has his paddle up for Pogue goodies. . .
You? I? Special parking rates at selected convenient locations and all registered bidders get a pretty good box lunch at lot viewing. . >>
Nice. Web provides an egalitarian format for a legacy. Human consciousness is certainly evolving beyond the skull at a rapid pace.
Curly would say,'its our duty to posterity'...
I say, Gene WILL be back. The bug never leaves your blood. 😁
Comments
<< <i>
How in the heck is the market going to absorb $250-300M worth of the best stuff EVER! >>
Well, if I scrimp and save, I'm good for a couple grand if that will help.
But seriously....wouldn't they be best served by selling over a 5 or 8 year period? Let the big-buyers reload a couple of times, and keep the prices up....
<< <i>How in the heck is the market going to absorb $250-300M worth of the best stuff EVER! >>
TDN, you have just stated the most profound implication of the liquidation of this great collection. And along with the liquidation of the Gardner, Newman, and others the market will have to absorb a very large market valuation in a very short period of time. Perhaps this is a golden moment in history where great rarities can be purchased for 30-50% of prior valuation? I trust that you will also be a buyer like many of us, but also knowing that our great deals will be offset by even larger portfolio losses.
The poker game has just begun.
OINK
I did not expect this either!"
Get your priorities straight Oreville!!
Wondercoin
Wondercoin
When you consider that 80-90% of the value of this collection is in six and seven and maybe eight figure coins, the auctions are going to have very little impact on the vast majority of collectors, and the market for the coins that they collect. As for the small number of collectors that swim in these very deep waters, there may well be some bargains to be had. Tough to say.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>How in the heck is the market going to absorb $250-300M worth of the best stuff EVER!
When you consider that 80-90% of the value of this collection is in six and seven and maybe eight figure coins, the auctions are going to have very little impact on the vast majority of collectors, and the market for the coins that they collect. As for the small number of collectors that swim in these very deep waters, there may well be some bargains to be had. Tough to say. >>
Andy - who do you think buys the duplicates of the people buying many of those coins.
<< <i>This is THE collection of United States early coinage. The only collection that I would pay to see. What an amazing mind blowing opportunity those of us who collect this stuff will have. I never expected this to come on the market in my lifetime.
How in the heck is the market going to absorb $250-300M worth of the best stuff EVER! >>
From the article: "It is anticipated that the collection will be sold over a series of auctions in New York City over the next several years."
The current price levels for just AU (and not that pretty either) has gone beyond the pale and.....should.....give ANYONE who has been in the hobby for over a couple years reason to pause and consider whether a mediocre AU bust half dime should compel them to shell out over a thousand bucks.
For ....essentially.... a Dansco candidate.
I would expect that the market SHOULD take a breather.
If not a widespread lightening of the load.
(I shouldn't post this as I still have some stuff left)
NOT in that league though.
<< <i>Dr Pete - I thought they had a complete run of US dimes from 1796 to date as well as other series. So they did have seated/Barber material. >>
I believe that you are mistaken as I do not believe that they own an 1894-S dime nor the 1873-CC
<< <i>Absorbing $300,000,000 from one collection; not even considering that Heritage will likely find another $100,000,000 or $200,000,000 on top of that during the same time period!! The day to days issues of the classic coin market. The modern market only has to figure out how it is going to absorb (13) different 2014 Kennedy Half Dollars in the next six months
Wondercoin >>
Not a lot of money in the upper stratosphere of the super wealthy.
Steve Wynn paid $139M for a Picasso.
Then put his elbow through it.
The story.
<< <i>
<< <i>Hmmmm - not sure where you came up with that but I think the Carter coin is pretty much universally acclaimed as finer than the Norweb coin
Don't the Pogues have the Rogers coin? >>
No. They have the better of the two Norweb coins. >>
So this is merely a "mine is bigger than yours" argument?
Very very wealthy people sell priceless gems to (presumably) other very very wealthy people. SSDD, as someone once said.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The Lord St. Oswald-Norweb specimen is currently graded by PCGS as MS64 and resides in a West Coast collection. It is lightly toned in lavender shades and displays a number of small dark planchet pits on the portrait of Liberty.
Not any more. It is blast white and frosty. I grade it an easy MS64+ >>
Hmm...I examined it very closely under natural daylight last summer, and while the toning was light and the surfaces were quite frosty, it definitely was not blast white. Have you seen it since then? >>
Nope, I saw it at Long Beach about three to four years ago. Its appearance at the time was that of a freshly dipped coin. My mistake, as you have seen it since. Surprising that the toning is coming back so quickly >>
That explains it! My experience has been that recently dipped early dollars will retone very rapidly. For example, following is the finest known example of a very rare die variety, a coin that I purchased in 1997. I later sold it privately in 1998. At the time I sold it, it had mottled toning. The new owner had it professionally conserved (dipped), and then it began retoning.
This is how it looked when it was auctioned in 2002, 4 years after dipping. (The photo shows that the coin toned, but the colors did not show up in the picture.) :
And this is how it looked when it was TrueViewed in 2009, 11 years after dipping:
The toning came back in a fairly short amount of time (11 years) and very attractively at that! >>
IMO -- If those images are each true-to-life, then the "conservation" and time haven't been kind to this old dollar.
<< <i>It only stands to reason that anyone with enough money to "collect" at these levels is also smart enough to ....sense....when prices (not values) get ridiculously out of whack.
The current price levels for just AU (and not that pretty either) has gone beyond the pale and.....should.....give ANYONE who has been in the hobby for over a couple years reason to pause and consider whether a mediocre AU bust half dime should compel them to shell out over a thousand bucks.
For ....essentially.... a Dansco candidate.
I would expect that the market SHOULD take a breather.
If not a widespread lightening of the load.
(I shouldn't post this as I still have some stuff left)
NOT in that league though.
Meh. Stuff is always expensive when you look at it in the light of whatever you were used to as a youth. In the '50s when a house cost what it cost, a car cost what it cost, etc. did any old grumpuses then, grouse at you about how things "used to be" in their day?
Bust half dime for a dansco? How about no bust half dime whatsoever -- much more typical for today's collector.
<< <i>First off - congratulations to Stacks for landing probably the most famous collection currently owned! Next, I truly hope that Stacks offers an educational experience to collectors and non collectors on this collection. Over the years, I tried to follow the coins that this family acquired and this collection is truly one of the finest collection built over many many years. In my opinion, this is truly historic for us collectors just to learn about these special coins - even holding these coin are truly special and I hope each and everyone of us shares in this experience!
With respect to the coin market and where is it heading - I think its only going up over a long time. There are well documented studies in business that shows collector of artwork, cars, coins and other collectibles that many high powered collections have a 25 year or so life. Think back, 25 years ago (more or less) and we saw the Eliasberg, Norweb, Garrett and Pittman collections sold. With time, the market absorbed these coins and years later many collectors chase them wonderful coins. I think the same will be the case for the Pogue, Gardner and Newman coins. I am thrilled and hope to see and hold each of these coins! Great times for us coin collectors and hope each and everyone one of us should hold, study and learn more about these great coins. I also, hope David Bowers will be writing several books on the collection!!!
For those that didn't have the chance to see, hold and learn about the Eliasberg, Garret and Norweb collections then here is your chance. Truly historic - take advantage of it!!! >>
So, how did the coin market react in the year or so after the Eliasberg, Norweb, Garrett and Pittman collections were sold?
Was there a pullback / correction before prices started moving up again?
History does not repeat itself, but it does happen in cycles.
<< <i>Stupid question (again). Anyone know if these coins are raw or graded? >>
Raw would be really cool but I'd expect it would be a bloodbath...
As heck there's many collectors these days that can't even buy certified without a sticker.
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>I have ca. 60 books by QDB, so another 1 or 2 won't hurt. My wife likes The Pogues, so the books better have LPs tucked in rear pockets. >>
That's going to go over most every bodies head
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
It will be interesting to see how the coin sales play out.
I know very little about the set composition, except that it contains some fascinating rare and expensive pieces. But is everything super high end Grade A numismatic delicacies? Or do they have "normal" coins too? Do they have world or ancient coins?
I think one of the nice things about the Eliasberg, or, say, the Newman collection, is that it was so diverse as to offer something for everyone. I could never afford Eric Newman's early silver dollars, but I was able to pick up one of his English coins for $200. Similarly, Eliasberg's collection was so extensive, and included less valuable world coins, currency, and medals. I wonder if the Pogues collected "working men's" coins of not the highest numismatic rarity?
K
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
<< <i>Folks should view these coins. >>
Agreed.
And they should be Trueviewed as well.
<< <i>And this is how it looked when it was TrueViewed in 2009, 11 years after dipping:
The toning came back in a fairly short amount of time (11 years) and very attractively at that!
IMO -- If those images are each true-to-life, then the "conservation" and time haven't been kind to this old dollar. >>
I don't believe either images are correct.
Lance.
<< <i>
<< <i>And this is how it looked when it was TrueViewed in 2009, 11 years after dipping:
The toning came back in a fairly short amount of time (11 years) and very attractively at that!
IMO -- If those images are each true-to-life, then the "conservation" and time haven't been kind to this old dollar. >>
I don't believe either images are correct.
Lance. >>
What do you mean by aren't correct? Many different photo appearances can all be "correct" based on lighting and other conditions. Do you mean the photos have been altered some how?
I am not much interested in corner cases.
Lance.
<< <i>No, not altered. Not corrected, as they should be. >>
Corrected as in Photoshop? I'm still not sure what you mean by "corrected".
If it hasn't already been done.
They can afford Steiglitz and their own personal slabbing machines. I'm sure both TPG's would supply private services very similar to what is now done with re-holdering at public venues.
Expect the Pogues and Stacks to supply us with the same quality of online archive Gene Gardner has so lovingly prepared.
Pittman is vaunted for his humble start as epitomized by mortgaging his house to do Farouk. Gene will inform anyone who asks why he sold his first collection in 1965. Rather slyly, rather drily, he will relate that he agreed with his wife that they should live in a house. . . . . . .
He got back in. .
I expect a Professor Irwin Corey-like response from Forumites as to what it might signify about the direction of "the market" if Gene Gardner has his paddle up for Pogue goodies. . .
You? I? Special parking rates at selected convenient locations and all registered bidders get a pretty good box lunch at lot viewing. .
<< <i>While others are quibbling about some particular image or another, my guess is that super-professsional imaging will be done for the disposition of this collection.
If it hasn't already been done.
They can afford Steiglitz and their own personal slabbing machines. I'm sure both TPG's would supply private services very similar to what is now done with re-holdering at public venues.
Expect the Pogues and Stacks to supply us with the same quality of online archive Gene Gardner has so lovingly prepared.
Pittman is vaunted for his humble start as epitomized by mortgaging his house to do Farouk. Gene will inform anyone who asks why he sold his first collection in 1965. Rather slyly, rather drily, he will relate that he agreed with his wife that they should live in a house. . . . . . .
He got back in. .
I expect a Professor Irwin Corey-like response from Forumites as to what it might signify about the direction of "the market" if Gene Gardner has his paddle up for Pogue goodies. . .
You? I? Special parking rates at selected convenient locations and all registered bidders get a pretty good box lunch at lot viewing. .
Nice. Web provides an egalitarian format for a legacy. Human consciousness is certainly evolving beyond the skull at a rapid pace.
Curly would say,'its our duty to posterity'...
I say, Gene WILL be back. The bug never leaves your blood. 😁