Does the Bentley Collection Mystify You?

Coinosaurus · March 6, 2014 11:30AM

Got my catalog today. I have never seen anything like this and I have looked over literally thousands of auction catalogs.

This accumulation of extremely rare coins with various problems is astounding.

Clearly there was a thick checkbook involved. You wonder why someone would collect this stuff instead of very nice coins, which they obviously could afford. Yes, there are some nice coins in here, and some very valuable ones, but the sheer mass of problem coins is amazing.

Maybe it was all about rarity for them, and they didn't care so much about eye appeal. My view is that an eye appealing lower grade coin is always desirable than an equally priced higher grade coin with problems. Clearly this collector did not agree with me. And of course I am right about this even though it isn't my money on the line

lordmarcovan · March 6, 2014 11:32AM

<< Does the Bentley Collection Mystify You? >>

Yes.

Mostly because I've never heard of it.

RYK · March 6, 2014 11:52AM

Yes, and it is about time that someone brought it up.

I have been following and bidding on the gold coins and continue to do so.

There was also a simultaneous sale of the "Bently Nob Hill" collection, which made things even more confusing.

OldIndianNutKase · March 6, 2014 3:30PM

<<Maybe it was all about rarity for them, and they didn't care so much about eye appeal. My view is that an eye appealing lower grade coin is always desirable than an equally priced higher grade coin with problems. Clearly this collector did not agree with me. And of course I am right about this even though it isn't my money on the line
>>

I also see a number of registry sets that are populated by "lower grade" coins, but yet the sets are complete. Personally, I agree with you and do have sets that may never be complete because I like the "special" higher grade coins. I will not discredit Bentley in any way as it was his call how to spend his money. I just enjoy looking at his collection.

OINK

Boosibri · March 6, 2014 6:10PM

<< Yes, and it is about time that someone brought it up.

I have been following and bidding on the gold coins and continue to do so.

There was also a simultaneous sale of the "Bently Nob Hill" collection, which made things even more confusing. >>

There is a Donald Bently "Bently Collection" and Christopher Bently "Nob Hill". Donald is the late father of Christopher. Apparently both father and son liked expensive but processed gold. I view the collections as one in the same, the senior Bently collection benefiting a foundation and the Nob Hill collection being a personal sale likely split as they have for tax purposes.

You may recall Christopher made news as the San Francisco socialite whos ex-wife ended up dead in 2013. Bently

The senior Bently built Bently Nevada, an industrial company specializing in instrumentation, now a part of GE.

I bought the 42 $5 Large Letters P50 which is actually a very nice coin and was harmed by the inclusion amongst the other rare but low quality coins. Bently must not have been able to find a processed example for the date and had to settle for an original piece.
42 Large Letters

By the way...Heritage is getting very lazy in the cataloging of the Bently sales...The description of the upcoming 64-S $5 is just plain wrong...
"This notably rare half eagle is well-recognized by advanced collectors, but the issue is sometimes overlooked by those not fully aware of its place among Liberty fives. Quietly rare, it is surpassed in scarcity only by the 1842 Large Letters, 1843-O Small Letters , 1875 (just 200 minted), and the legendary 1854-S." 64-S $5 Not a chance that the 42 $5 LL or the 43-O is more rare than the 64-S. The inclusion of the 43-O $5 in the same paragraph is laughable.

ricko · March 6, 2014 9:50PM

All people do not have the same interests.... some collectors just enjoy coins and building a series. It is not always about highest grade or monster tarnish..Cheers, RickO

ahopewell55 · March 6, 2014 11:00PM

"Bently must not have been able to find a processed example for the date and had to settle for an original piece."

crypto79 · March 6, 2014 11:14PM

<< All people do not have the same interests.... some collectors just enjoy coins and building a series. It is not always about highest grade or monster tarnish..Cheers, RickO >>

As normal, Ricko is a voice of reason. The absolute market preference for "crust" is a fairly modern one and some collectors myself included can find charm in just about any coin. One of my fav collectors/collections is John frost. If looked at clinically and cold in an auction catalog one could say many of the same things about money spent but filled with wizzed Gobrecht dollars, pitted 92-0 micro halfs, circulated classic proofs and the such. But his enjoyment and what he contributes to the hobby is second to none. I get it and admire it, hell some time the plane Jane ladies are the most fun even if you have a couple model types in the rolladex.

Boosibri · March 6, 2014 11:21PM

<< 

<< All people do not have the same interests.... some collectors just enjoy coins and building a series. It is not always about highest grade or monster tarnish..Cheers, RickO >>

As normaly Ricko is a voice of reason. The absolute market preference for "crust" is a fairly modern one and some collectors myself included can find charm in just about any coin. One of my fav collectors/collections is John frost. If looked at clinically and cold in an auction catalog one could say many of the same things about money spent but filled with wizzed Gobrecht dollars, pitted 92-0 micro halfs, circulated classic proofs and the such. But his enjoyment and what he contributes to the hobby is second to none. I get it and admire it, hell some time the plane Jane ladies are the most fun if you have a couple model types in the rolladex. >>

.

Im sure Bently enjoyed put his collection together. Despite that, his coins are of epically poor quality. That is a fact.

RYK · March 6, 2014 11:23PM

<< 

<< All people do not have the same interests.... some collectors just enjoy coins and building a series. It is not always about highest grade or monster tarnish..Cheers, RickO >>

As normaly Ricko is a voice of reason. The absolute market preference for "crust" is a fairly modern one... >>

While that may be true, I do not believe that there was ever a preference, among knowledgeable collectors, for coins that were scrubbed to within an inch of their lives, either.

Boosibri, thanks for filling in some of the details.

RYK · March 6, 2014 11:32PM

The flip side is that the collector drive and determination for completion or the "holy grail" coin often makes collectors buy coins that are detrimental to the overall quality of their collections.

I would also add that depending on when and how the Bentleys bought their coins, many of which are indeed rather low end, they are likely in a profit position, perhaps an even substantial profit position. So who's laughing at them now.

AMRC · March 6, 2014 11:38PM

I have seen other collections like this and it is no real mystery. Buying "Problem" coins is a way to to own the rarities at the least expensive end of the cost range. Many "collectors" start here as a way to to get into collecting but then never get past this "phase."

MrHalfDime · March 6, 2014 11:39PM

"As normaly Ricko is a voice of reason. The absolute market preference for "crust" is a fairly modern one and some collectors myself included can find charm in just about any coin. One of my fav collectors/collections is John frost. If looked at clinically and cold in an auction catalog one could say many of the same things about money spent but filled with wizzed Gobrecht dollars, pitted 92-0 micro halfs, circulated classic proofs and the such. But his enjoyment and what he contributes to the hobby is second to none. I get it and admire it, hell some time the plane Jane ladies are the most fun if you have a couple model types in the rolladex."

I was going to respond to this thread with a similar comment, but I see that Crypto79 has done an eloquent job, obviating the need for me to comment. I can only add that I know John Frost well, and must concur with Crypto's comments on John's incredible collection of rare, if sometimes slightly impaired, coins.

When I used to conduct classes for the Boy Scouts coin collecting badge, I always told the scouts that there was no wrong way to collect coins. A collection is a personal statement of the collector's preferences, likes, and tastes, and no one should tell them that they are wrong in collecting what they do.

crypto79 · March 6, 2014 11:46PM

<< 

<< 

<< All people do not have the same interests.... some collectors just enjoy coins and building a series. It is not always about highest grade or monster tarnish..Cheers, RickO >>

As normaly Ricko is a voice of reason. The absolute market preference for "crust" is a fairly modern one and some collectors myself included can find charm in just about any coin. One of my fav collectors/collections is John frost. If looked at clinically and cold in an auction catalog one could say many of the same things about money spent but filled with wizzed Gobrecht dollars, pitted 92-0 micro halfs, circulated classic proofs and the such. But his enjoyment and what he contributes to the hobby is second to none. I get it and admire it, hell some time the plane Jane ladies are the most fun if you have a couple model types in the rolladex. >>

.

Im sure Bently enjoyed put his collection together. Despite that, his coins are of epically poor quality. That is a fact. >>

No it isn't, it is an opnion. "Quality" is subjective and a descriptive term in its nature and open to interpretation. Even if the majority of opinions align with the markets preference, I would say that people's tastes tend to be overly influenced by resale and lquidity considerations. The man's enjoyment speaks their real application of the quality of the collection. I bet he still turns a profit so what we are talking about are people's tastes and then trying to assign a pecking order to them? I agree the people who cut the biggest checks tend to perfer coins with a different look, and if that look is as original as they proclaim when they are cutting the check, well that will be sorted when people are going through the next generation of auction Catalogs

Clemenza · March 6, 2014 11:49PM

Does it mystify me? No.

But I am certainly enchanted by it.

Sonorandesertrat · March 6, 2014 11:58PM

"I would say that people's tastes tend to be overly influenced by resale and lquidity considerations."

I agree. A coin collection should, first and foremost, be a source of pleasure for its owner. If the owner understands that others may not feel as he does about the coins, there is no harm done, assuming that the owner understood what he bought in the first place.

Collecting coins as a diversion/hobby and collecting coins for future price appreciation are intents that do not necessarily coincide.

Boosibri · March 6, 2014 11:59PM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< All people do not have the same interests.... some collectors just enjoy coins and building a series. It is not always about highest grade or monster tarnish..Cheers, RickO >>

As normaly Ricko is a voice of reason. The absolute market preference for "crust" is a fairly modern one and some collectors myself included can find charm in just about any coin. One of my fav collectors/collections is John frost. If looked at clinically and cold in an auction catalog one could say many of the same things about money spent but filled with wizzed Gobrecht dollars, pitted 92-0 micro halfs, circulated classic proofs and the such. But his enjoyment and what he contributes to the hobby is second to none. I get it and admire it, hell some time the plane Jane ladies are the most fun if you have a couple model types in the rolladex. >>

.

Im sure Bently enjoyed put his collection together. Despite that, his coins are of epically poor quality. That is a fact. >>

No it isn't, it is an opnion. "Quality" is subject and a descriptive term in its nature and open to interpretation. Even if the majority of opinions align with the markets preference, I would say that people's tastes tend to be overly influenced by resale and lquidity considerations. The man's enjoyment speaks their real application of the quality of the collection. I bet he still turns a profit so what we are talking about are people's tastes and then trying to assign a pecking order to them? I agree the people who cut the biggest checks tend to perfer coins with a different look, if that look is as original as the proclaim when they are cutting the check will be sorted when people are goin through the next generation of auction Catalogs >>

Find me a person who thinks that these are quality coins. Bently is dead but he may still be your best shot. To restate my previous statement...his coins are nearly all processed and lacking original surfaces.

Im sure his estate made a profit based on some of the PRL. Would have have done better if the coins were more wholesome, yes. Could he have amassed the collection he did if that was his persuasion, no.

crypto79 · March 7, 2014 12:30AM

<< Find me a person who thinks that these are quality coins. Bently is dead and but he may still be your best shot. >>

well played

mbogoman · March 7, 2014 12:51AM

Sometimes a coin is so scarce that buying one with a problem is the only viable option. Take the 1871 CC Seated dollar for example. My budget will never allow me to purchase a choice example, unless it goes for well below market. And the simple fact is that they don't come around that often, so the wait can be interminable and the competition fierce. But I can fill the hole and get great satisfaction with a problem example as long as the problem is not egregious. For me, a moderate old cleaning on such an issue is fine.

And to complete my CC dollar collection, the 73 will definitely be a problem...in more ways than one!

gypsylea · March 7, 2014 1:30AM

Strictly from a market timing standpoint, now might be the time to focus on rare date problem coins. From an aesthetics standpoint, I agree with the OP.

COALPORTER · March 7, 2014 1:53AM

<< 

<< Does the Bentley Collection Mystify You? >>

Yes.

Mostly because I've never heard of it. >>

My first thought was a mega car collection.

BillJones · March 7, 2014 5:03AM

Some of the problem coins in the Bentley sale are very rare and virtually unobtainable in nice condition. One his most poorly preserved coins the 1797 quarter eagle is ex-jewelry, smoothed, tooled and re-engraved. Even with that list of problems the coin grabbed my attention. I would never buy a piece like that, but it was still worth a look.

What surprises me more is some of the problem coins that got grades. I won't say more in fairness to Mr. Bentley and Heritage, for those can spot them, you might be surprised too.

crypto79 · March 7, 2014 5:22AM

Link for context

First thing I had thought was it looks like a collection built in the 1980-2000s through coin world adds

Boosibri · March 7, 2014 5:48AM

His 1870-CC 25c isn't that bad!
1870-CC

jdimmick · March 7, 2014 4:57PM

I was amazed at all of the key coins in this sale, and as other mentioned the quality difference from coin to coin. some of the key's were nice, others not nice at all.

I am watching two in this sale(non gold), a friend is watching three of the gold. I really needed to go out to san fran to view these in person, but I am going to have someone do it for me.

jim

MrEureka · March 8, 2014 12:36AM

Strictly from a market timing standpoint, now might be the time to focus on rare date problem coins.

I'm not so sure that "Details" coins are being discounted any more heavily these days. In fact, if you compare them to "maxed out" coins with grades, it's probably just the opposite.

However, even if we accept the premise that the discounts on problem coins are severe, and that they are relative bargains, time is more likely to turn these bargains into dull investments, at best. After all, if your coin appeals only to bargain hunters, you can't very well expect those bargain hunters to ever get into a bidding war for your coin. It's just not in their DNA.

gypsylea · March 8, 2014 1:26AM

>>After all, if your coin appeals only to bargain hunters, you can't very well expect those bargain hunters to ever get into a bidding war for your coin. It's just not in their DNA. <<

Dependence on a bidding war as an exit strategy may not work out so well regardless of what you buy.

crypto79 · March 8, 2014 1:30AM

<< >>After all, if your coin appeals only to bargain hunters, you can't very well expect those bargain hunters to ever get into a bidding war for your coin. It's just not in their DNA. <<

Dependence on a bidding war as an exit strategy may not work out so well regardless of what you buy. >>

Ha, you don't post much but that was a pretty good one

And with Mr E too actually

gypsylea · March 8, 2014 2:21AM

<< 

<< >>After all, if your coin appeals only to bargain hunters, you can't very well expect those bargain hunters to ever get into a bidding war for your coin. It's just not in their DNA. <<

Dependence on a bidding war as an exit strategy may not work out so well regardless of what you buy. >>

Ha, you don't post much but that was a pretty good one

And with Mr E too actually >>

Not trying to score points, but thanks. Markets are strange beasts, tastes change, credit lines disappear,etc. Sometimes contrarians can be right, but it would be very difficult to play that role and be a full time dealer. If you were an investor, then I don't see how it would hurt to diversify a little bit, maybe buy one of the processed straight graded gold coins that would make someone like Doug Winters puke, if the price spread relative to a no problems crusty original was steep.

MrEureka · March 8, 2014 2:53AM

<<After all, if your coin appeals only to bargain hunters, you can't very well expect those bargain hunters to ever get into a bidding war for your coin. It's just not in their DNA. >>

Dependence on a bidding war as an exit strategy may not work out so well regardless of what you buy.

Fair enough, but let me rephrase my position.

In general, rare coins make dull long term investments. To do really well in the long run, your best bet is to buy coins that are so wonderful that they could spark a bidding war. Not that you have to sell at auction. If you have such a wonderful piece, you might just be able to get someone to pay "moon money" in a private transaction.

And as for buying "sludge" to diversify your portfolio, and holding those coins long term, I consider it a defeatist approach. In other words, the only way the sludge will help your overall investment return is if the overall market declines. (Because in a declining market, the high-flying wonder coins will usually fall the most.)

lava · March 8, 2014 2:54AM

In high end antiques, problems typically take the value down to 10%. Problem coins are way beyond that, so very questionable whether the value is there.

MrEureka · March 8, 2014 2:57AM

In high end antiques, problems typically take the value down to 10%.

I don't know antiques, but I'll bet the discount is higher on the dealer's buy prices than it is on their retail prices. Same as it is with rare coins, only (I'd guess) more so.

gypsylea · March 8, 2014 3:18AM

>>And as for buying "sludge" to diversify your portfolio, and holding those coins long term, I consider it a defeatist approach. In other words, the only way the sludge will help your overall investment return is if the overall market declines. (Because in a declining market, the high-flying wonder coins will usually fall the most.) <<

Andy, you are getting close!! Before I retired, I represented a very large scale commodities trader-- in the league of actually owning seats on the CBOT. His mantra was "If you don't spread, you are dead." If I could afford to play in the moon money league, I would, but I wouldn't put all my money there, particularly if it is possible to find "sludge" that wasn't considered such a few years ago and just isn't that common.

Coinosaurus · March 8, 2014 3:55AM

There is money in sludge - one my first big scores as a collector was buying an 1873-CC quarter with a boatload of problems for $1500. It is a coin I would never touch today. But the CC market took off and I doubled my money when I sold the coin a couple years later. More power to the consignor if he similarly cashes in, but aesthetically it is just distasteful to me deal in this stuff anymore.

MrEureka · March 8, 2014 5:06AM

There is money in sludge - one my first big scores as a collector was buying an 1873-CC quarter with a boatload of problems for $1500. It is a coin I would never touch today. But the CC market took off and I doubled my money when I sold the coin a couple years later.

And how would you have done with a choice VF if held over the same period of time? (Assume you got as good a value on the VF as you actually got on the ugly one.)

crump41 · March 8, 2014 6:02AM

To me it seems that if the coin was a better date and the price was low, they bought it. They didn't seem to try to do much to maximize the sales results though: I didn't see any CAC stickers, plus grades, crackouts, regrades.

Boosibri · March 8, 2014 6:20AM

<< To me it seems that if the coin was a better date and the price was low, they bought it. They didn't seem to try to do much to maximize the sales results though: I didn't see any CAC stickers, plus grades, crackouts, regrades. >>

I thought of this as well. I wonder if the CAC percentage was presumed to be so low that having any coins certified would cast a shadow over the other 98%. As such these have been tough sales and a few gems have gone cheaply and a few dogs have gone for moon money (64-S $10 for $117k).

Baley · March 8, 2014 9:25AM

The collection does not entirely mystify me; I do not mind rare coins with problems at a price of a reasonable net grade, and have many such pieces myself.
Other collectors would rather do without, than accept a piece with any problems or damage, and there are certain types and dates that they will therefore never own.

I'd be thrilled to own any of his 1796-1833 quarter eagles, for example, or one of his early or Gobrecht dollars.

The seated material does very little for me, and I'll admit to being somewhat puzzled about some of the more common coins that have problems.

tradedollarnut · March 8, 2014 9:34AM

Because in a declining market, the high-flying wonder coins will usually fall the most

My knee jerk reaction is that this just isn't true ... can you back it up with a few examples?

ranshdow · March 8, 2014 10:02AM

I'd be thrilled to own any of his 1796-1833 quarter eagles, for example, or one of his early or Gobrecht dollars.

Looking at just the three Gobrect dollars in the upcoming Donald Bently auction:

30076: 1836 VF details & plugged: currently $1300
30077: 1836 AU det, cleaned, rim dings, exceptionally bright: currently $3250
30078: 1836 proof det, deeply toned, first striking period: currently $4500

I can see you're in good company....

DIMEMAN · March 8, 2014 11:28AM

At the risk of offending someone......I think too many people out here are wearing blinders. If it's not top pop with stars and stickers it's just druge and not desirable.

I guess what it boils down to weither you are a collector wanting to complete series with what you can afford or you just want trophy coins.

JMHO

Coinosaurus · March 8, 2014 12:01PM

<< Because in a declining market, the high-flying wonder coins will usually fall the most

My knee jerk reaction is that this just isn't true ... can you back it up with a few examples? >>

Not sure I agree with the premise, but I do recall someone taking a bath on the 1870-S half dime c. 1990.

streeter · March 8, 2014 1:06PM

No mystery to me.

The five and ten San Francisco libs are a nice collectible run.

Collect what you like. He didn't confuse his ego with either of those series.He wasn't "compensating" as they say in the corvette world

tradedollarnut · March 9, 2014 2:14AM

<< 

<< Because in a declining market, the high-flying wonder coins will usually fall the most

My knee jerk reaction is that this just isn't true ... can you back it up with a few examples? >>

Not sure I agree with the premise, but I do recall someone taking a bath on the 1870-S half dime c. 1990. >>

They will fall the most dollarwise just because they are so valuable, but percentagewise I think it's more likely to be generic common dates in gem holders like the Morgan dollars.

JJSingleton · March 9, 2014 5:21AM

I acquired the 61-D dollar from this collection back at the FUN show. It was previously from the Chestatee/ Dukes Creek collection dupes. It is a superior example for the grade. I too am quite surprised from what I see from the rest of the collection that is now up for auction.

Boosibri · March 12, 2014 3:54PM

In a sign that all of the Bently coins were not complete crap, the 42 $5 Large Letters P50 I bought from the auction CAC'd. One of just three in all grades ( I have one of the other two as well).

joebb21 · March 13, 2014 12:10AM

<< Link for context

First thing I had thought was it looks like a collection built in the 1980-2000s through coin world adds >>

This was basically my thought as well.

BillJones · March 13, 2014 12:35AM

The negative attitudes that some people express here are indication of changing tastes. Now the grade means more than rarity so far as market prices go. A coin like the 1794 silver dollar in SP-66 sells for $10 million while an 1804 dollar sells for millions less. Ditto for the Brasher doubloon. There approximately 130, 1794 dollars known, 15, 1804 dollars and 7 Brasher doubloons. Clearly the condition number grade now trumps rarity, but that was not always so. Back when I was young collector in the 1960s those who collected strictly Mint State coins were unusual. The emphasis was on acquiring the rarities in attractive, but not necessarily perfect condition.

Bently has the same 1854-S quarter eagle that Eliasberg had graded Good-6. It is the lowest graded one among the 12 listed in the roster of pieces known. Are you going to call it "junk" because it's only a Good-6? I get a bit tired of the bashing. There are not many of us who will have a collection that will rate an auction catalog of its own when the time comes for any of us or our heirs to sell. Why not just leave it at that?

tradedollarnut · March 13, 2014 12:40AM

<< The negative attitudes that some people express here are indication of changing tastes. Now the grade means more than rarity so far as market prices go. A coin like the 1794 silver dollar in SP-66 sells for $10 million while an 1804 dollar sells for millions less. Ditto for the Brasher doubloon. There approximately 130, 1794 dollars known, 15, 1804 dollars and 7 Brasher doubloons. Clearly the condition number grade now trumps rarity, but that was not always so. Back when I was young collector in the 1960s those who collected strictly Mint State coins were unusual. The emphasis was on acquiring the rarities in attractive, but not necessarily perfect condition.

Bently has the same 1854-S quarter eagle that Eliasberg had graded Good-6. It is the lowest graded one among the 12 listed in the roster of pieces known. Are you going to call it "junk" because it's only a Good-6? I get a bit tired of the bashing. There are not many of us who will have a collection that will rate an auction catalog of its own when the time comes for any of us or our heirs to sell. Why not just leave it at that? >>

Speaking from firsthand knowledge, I can tell you that the numerical grade had less to do with the value than the historical importance as we became convinced that particular 1794 was the first coin struck. Aside from your example being somewhat flawed, I do agree with your premise.

DIMEMAN · March 13, 2014 12:59AM

Well said Bill.

gypsylea · March 13, 2014 2:26AM

Ditto what Bill Jones said. When my father and I were working on a set of circ Walkers back in the 1965-70 era, competition for the keys and semi-keys in nice VF-AU condition was intense, and dealers could pretty much get Redbook prices for examples that were all there for the grade. The only folks I can recall that focused on MS Walkers were working on short sets. One friend of Dad's completed a nice set of the proofs. Other than that, the action was in circs. That was true of most series, as I recall, though I do remember even back then that there were a few people who would pay what I thought were inordinate amounts of money for full red MS copper.

I really find it hard to relate to the disdain expressed for the Bentley collection, though I can contextualize it as being due to an unfortunate loss of historical memory. Financially, I think the consignors will do well on the collection. More importantly, I bet Mr. Bentley got a real kick out of his coins.

Does the Bentley Collection Mystify You?

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