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OGHs in the era of Reconsideration

RYKRYK Posts: 35,800 ✭✭✭✭✭
With the announcement of the new Reconsideration service late last year, in which, among other things, PCGS will evaluate OGH era coins for possible upgrades but leave the coin in the holder if no upgrade is warranted. A dealer friend predicted the demise of the OGH and its cache. After all, the only coins left in OGHs would be the ones that did not warrant the upgrade, right?

Well, nine months into the Reconsideration Era, I believe that the OGH is still alive and well. People appreciate coins that have been graded and left alone for 15+ years and recognize that perhaps some still may be undergraded. I personally own dozens of coins in OGHs and have little interest in submitting them at his point in time. I do not know anyone who has submitted their OGHs to this service but would be interested to learn if others have and what their experience has been.
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Comments

  • goldengolden Posts: 9,998 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have a few OGH. I have had very good luck sending in gold coins. I will send in a few more soon.
  • bidaskbidask Posts: 14,031 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have some coins in ogh's too and I do not plan to submit them
    as I prefer the aura and mystique of owning coins in an ogh to the
    possibility of a Reconsideration.
    I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
    I give away money. I collect money.
    I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




  • crypto79crypto79 Posts: 8,623
    Old holders biggest attribute is the ability to prove that the coin wasn't messed with during a very coin doctor heavy time in our hobbies history. That will never change and their premiums will only increase as the duration of encasement/protection grows.
  • I agree with RYK's stance and have left my OGHs undisturbed (in their bank vault environs).

    Edited to correct a typo.
    "Clamorous for Coin"
  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 12,410 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I agree with your stance though I think that the OGH holds a stronger place in the heart of the collector vs with most dealers. If the coin has a good chance of upgrading, most dealers will crack or use the reconsideration service.
  • stevebensteveben Posts: 4,639 ✭✭✭✭✭
    when they are like this...
    image
    they don't need an upgrade.

    but...buyer beware. there are many genuine coins with grades in ogh's, as they net graded, rare coins. there are a few on heritage in the up-coming auction.
  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Keeping everything in their old holders.
    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,800 ✭✭✭✭✭
    BTW, this is not to say that every coin in an OGH is a valued prize. There are some that are enthusiastically graded, by current standards, some that have turned in the holder, and some that are just not that nice.

    I agree with Boosibri's point that collectors may tend to value the OGH more than dealers, but I see that some dealers are wise to the premium for the OGH and are valuing them as such.
  • stmanstman Posts: 11,352 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I can appreciate the old holder. But the first thing I do as with any coin holdered if it looks under graded is check to see if it might have been silently net graded. They did this more in the old holders as they weren't offering the genuine slab then. I see too many collectors going nuts over the old holder and the premium associated with it, and not paying as much attention to the coin. Some ugly and over-graded (IMO) ones too.

    I also agree that it's nice to know the coin might not have been messed with in years........ but it could have been messed with years ago and still stayed stable.
    The coin Doc's might not have been as sophisticated as today, but no doubt they were around, and maybe even some good ones. That's my worthless opinion anyway.
    Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,800 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Excellent point, Stman, regarding the net grading, which was far more common in the past.
  • Alltheabove76Alltheabove76 Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭✭
    Can someone explain the logic/fairness behind the 1% fee on upgrades? I don't see the rationale at all. Why should you pay a penalty fee to get your coin into the holder it belongs?

    Bobby
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,800 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Can someone explain the logic/fairness behind the 1% fee on upgrades? I don't see the rationale at all. Why should you pay a penalty fee to get your coin into the holder it belongs?

    Bobby >>


    It has never been explained to me, but my rationale would be that when cracking out coins from other holders, occasionally mistakes are made or encountered: rim problems, damage sustained cracking out the coins, surface problems only detectable outside the holder, etc. The 1% fee covers the potential liability that PCGS takes when cracking out your coin.

    If you do not want to pay it, submit raw, and you take on the liability described above.
  • AnkurJAnkurJ Posts: 11,370 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>when they are like this...
    image
    they don't need an upgrade.

    but...buyer beware. there are many genuine coins with grades in ogh's, as they net graded, rare coins. there are a few on heritage in the up-coming auction. >>



    Agreed. And nice coin! I used to own it! image
    All coins kept in bank vaults.
    PCGS Registries
    Box of 20
    SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
  • Alltheabove76Alltheabove76 Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Can someone explain the logic/fairness behind the 1% fee on upgrades? I don't see the rationale at all. Why should you pay a penalty fee to get your coin into the holder it belongs?

    Bobby >>


    It has never been explained to me, but my rationale would be that when cracking out coins from other holders, occasionally mistakes are made or encountered: rim problems, damage sustained cracking out the coins, surface problems only detectable outside the holder, etc. The 1% fee covers the potential liability that PCGS takes when cracking out your coin.

    If you do not want to pay it, submit raw, and you take on the liability described above. >>



    I understand that, but it isn't what I asked. I want to know the justification.
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,800 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>Can someone explain the logic/fairness behind the 1% fee on upgrades? I don't see the rationale at all. Why should you pay a penalty fee to get your coin into the holder it belongs?

    Bobby >>


    It has never been explained to me, but my rationale would be that when cracking out coins from other holders, occasionally mistakes are made or encountered: rim problems, damage sustained cracking out the coins, surface problems only detectable outside the holder, etc. The 1% fee covers the potential liability that PCGS takes when cracking out your coin.

    If you do not want to pay it, submit raw, and you take on the liability described above. >>



    I understand that, but it isn't what I asked. I want to know the justification. >>


    There is a real additional cost compared to raw grading because of issues described above. Or, if you do not like that explanation, they charge it because they can. Finally, you can flip and ask how they could possibly have done crossovers for free for all of those years. image
  • shylockshylock Posts: 4,288 ✭✭✭
    The best PCGS holder in terms of both looks and standards. But I confess I have one ready to go to PCGS for Reconsideration.
    Along with a rattler.

    I'm curious, how do collectors feel now about rattlers? They were the "OGH" of years ago, and would bet the best rattlers wound
    up in OGHs. Most of the rattlers that have survived are the lower tier of that grading era. I think the OGH very high grade coins will
    exist forever because they represent the best of two eras of the strictest PCGS grading, plus have that OGH vintage value which is
    worth as much or more than a sticker. But the ones that have high value upgrade potential will eventually go the way of the rattler.


  • keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
    the topic of this thread makes me appreciate, among other things, the wisdom of DHeath who is fond of stating that the time for encapsulation is at the point of sale. just because PCGS starts a new service is no reason to have a coin regarded.
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,800 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have never been a fan of the Rattler, from an aesthetics standpoint. I will occasionally buy coins in Rattlers, but I will always move them to more current holders.
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,800 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>the topic of this thread makes me appreciate, among other things, the wisdom of DHeath who is fond of stating that the time for encapsulation is at the point of sale. just because PCGS starts a new service is no reason to have a coin regarded. >>


    One might argue that there is never a reason to have a coin regarded. image
  • keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
    smoe of the time, no.
  • mozinmozin Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭
    I simply like the green background better than the new blue background. If the coin has the CAC sticker, I will buy the OGH, instead of the newer holder with CAC.

    It does make sense to me that most all of the remaining OGH have already been tried for upgrades, and failed.
    I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
  • shylockshylock Posts: 4,288 ✭✭✭
    I have never been a fan of the Rattler, from an aesthetics standpoint. I will occasionally buy coins in Rattlers, but I will always move them to more current holders.

    From an aesthetics standpoint the rattlers are the dinosaur of slabs. The complete opposite of their replacement, which has become an icon.

    But the coin always lasts longer than the plastic and eventually most of the OGH coins will go the way of the rattlers. Hopefully I'm wrong and

    and if I'm not I hope it takes a very long time.
  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,461 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Here are a couple that will be staying in the old holders. image

    image

    RADAR OGH. image

    image

    Gold just looks better with the green label.

    image
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal.
  • CoinRaritiesOnlineCoinRaritiesOnline Posts: 3,681 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>It does make sense to me that most all of the remaining OGH have already been tried for upgrades, and failed. >>



    Are you suggesting that all of them have already been sent in for the Reconsideration service? 'Cuz that's the only way they could have been "tried".
  • shylockshylock Posts: 4,288 ✭✭✭
    Black NGC slab with a gold CAC? Slab nirvana image

    image
  • CatbertCatbert Posts: 7,647 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Seated Half Society member #38
    "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,800 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>It does make sense to me that most all of the remaining OGH have already been tried for upgrades, and failed. >>



    Are you suggesting that all of them have already been sent in for the Reconsideration service? 'Cuz that's the only way they could have been "tried". >>


    I can account for six dozen or so that have never been Reconsidered. image
  • TomBTomB Posts: 22,093 ✭✭✭✭✭
    In my experience, dealers are generally quite a bit quicker to crack out an apparently conservatively graded coin from an OGH for resubmission and potentially higher grade than are most collectors. This does not mean all full-time dealers, but enough of them to make a dent in the populations.
    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • ElcontadorElcontador Posts: 7,694 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Only a fool would crack a Large or Half Cent out of an OGH for reasons already mentioned. And it's not just RD copper.
    "Vou invadir o Nordeste,
    "Seu cabra da peste,
    "Sou Mangueira......."
  • SeattleSlammerSeattleSlammer Posts: 10,065 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have never cracked an OGH nor sent one in for reconsideration. Though I have a handful that I'm confident are undergraded.
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 31,395 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I agree with Boosibri's point that collectors may tend to value the OGH more than dealers, but I see that some dealers are wise to the premium for the OGH and are valuing them as such. >>



    Like toning, many are more wise to the premium when selling than they are when buying.
    theknowitalltroll;
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 31,395 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Can someone explain the logic/fairness behind the 1% fee on upgrades? I don't see the rationale at all. Why should you pay a penalty fee to get your coin into the holder it belongs?

    Bobby >>


    It has never been explained to me, but my rationale would be that when cracking out coins from other holders, occasionally mistakes are made or encountered: rim problems, damage sustained cracking out the coins, surface problems only detectable outside the holder, etc. The 1% fee covers the potential liability that PCGS takes when cracking out your coin. >>



    It might also be that they are getting tired of cutting big checks to submitters while they get but a pittance grading fee. In many cases, the successful crossover results in more value to the submitter than if the coin wasn't crossed. Obviously more than just the submission cost or nobody would be doing it. Maybe a year ago I cracked out a 1890-S NGC ms64 Morgan [roughly a $300 coin]. It came back from PCGS as ms65. I sold the thing [which did not bean BTW] for around $900 so [assuming like results would have been gotten on crossover submission] PCGS in effect wrote me a check for $600 in exchange for a measly $25 fee.
    theknowitalltroll;
  • coinlieutenantcoinlieutenant Posts: 9,320 ✭✭✭✭✭
    How many will be left 1000 years from now I wonder? Better yet, who will care? Inquiring minds want to know...
  • breakdownbreakdown Posts: 2,260 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think the OGH is still alive and well -- maybe my own myopic view of things since I have a number of OGHs that I am unlikely to ever try for a regrade. Crypto's reason is a very good one and particularly for a series like Buffalos where the messed-with coins became widespread after the OGHs. Here's a Buffalo I think is very nice for the grade but I really like it in the holder it's in:

    image

    A top pop is another good example -- I've considered sending in my 1917 Walker for reconsideration both because I suspect it's nicer than the other 67s and also I would love to have a TrueView of it. But it's in an early OGH type that Oreville started a census on and I like to speculate that it might have been one of the first Walkers from the teens or twenties to make 67 at PCGS:

    image

    There are other examples but I think the thought that most OGHs have been tried or will be tried is simply not correct. I have plenty in my collection and I'm sure many others do as well.

    "Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.

  • stevebensteveben Posts: 4,639 ✭✭✭✭✭
    this thread need more OGH

    image
    image
    image
  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 24,709 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>the topic of this thread makes me appreciate, among other things, the wisdom of DHeath who is fond of stating that the time for encapsulation is at the point of sale. just because PCGS starts a new service is no reason to have a coin regarded. >>





    image
    All glory is fleeting.
  • CoinRaritiesOnlineCoinRaritiesOnline Posts: 3,681 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>the topic of this thread makes me appreciate, among other things, the wisdom of DHeath who is fond of stating that the time for encapsulation is at the point of sale. just because PCGS starts a new service is no reason to have a coin regraded. >>



    image >>



    Registry participants interested in maximizing points / grades will feel differently.
  • I have a few in the OGH's and I plan on keeping them that way. The biggest reason for me is I know that they are stable for the most part. I have had a couple of coins turn ugly and it has made me gun shy. I would rather send them in for CAC approval.
  • stevebensteveben Posts: 4,639 ✭✭✭✭✭
    i miss this one:

    image
  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 12,410 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thanks for the good topic RYK.
  • Here's a coin that was my favorite in a group of OGH C- and D-Mint gold that a dealer friend handled about 10 years ago. The entire group sold out "onesie - twosie" at a memorable regional coin show, almost entirely to my Southern gold circle of friends. Acquaintances who arrived late were disappointed that they had missed out on the OGH mini-hoard. For the record, most pieces sold at prices well above the price guide for the certified grade. This coin is still in my collection and has never been viewed by the bean factory. The photo is courtesy of BluCC.

    image
    "Clamorous for Coin"
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,800 ✭✭✭✭✭
    this thread need more OGH

    Okay, here's a dozen tens:

    image
    image
    image
    image
    image
    image
    image
    image
    image
    image
    image
    image
  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,461 ✭✭✭✭✭
    So, is there any financial incentive by a theoretical TPG firm to upgrade a coin that shouldn't upgrade??
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal.
  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,461 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Here's an OGH that hasn't yet appeared in this thread....... image

    image
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal.
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,800 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>So, is there any financial incentive by a theoretical TPG firm to upgrade a coin that shouldn't upgrade?? >>


    I do not believe so. Compromising standards for 1% would be penny wise and pound foolish.

    There are about a half dozen coins in my collection, primarily generics, that would probably benefit from Reconsideration, if I were going to sell them. The majority would likely not benefit, and some might even be diminished in value in higher grade holders.image
  • TomBTomB Posts: 22,093 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>So, is there any financial incentive by a theoretical TPG firm to upgrade a coin that shouldn't upgrade?? >>


    I do not believe so. Compromising standards for 1% would be penny wise and pound foolish.

    There are about a half dozen coins in my collection, primarily generics, that would probably benefit from Reconsideration, if I were going to sell them. The majority would likely not benefit, and some might even be diminished in value in higher grade holders.image >>



    If not harmed in value, quite a few would likely face greatly reduced liquidity.
    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • stevebensteveben Posts: 4,639 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>
    Agreed. And nice coin! I used to own it! image >>



    and thank you, sir, for selling it! ;-)

    oh yeah, ryk...i see at least one coin from dwn you beat me to...nice coins, everyone!
  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Interesting subject and responses

    A conclusion can easily be drawn as to the subjective nature of grading which is far more significant than most collectors seem to believe

    I enjoyed the first 6 no motto Eagles- the images of those coins really capture the difficulty of finding quality examples in any grade

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

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