<< <i>My reason for submitting was also because I was unsure of the color being natural. >>
By your own words, you thought the coin was over graded and was unsure of the color being natural. You should have returned the coin upon receipt. The deal was done with the dealer you purchased the coin from especially from what you wrote in your original post when you said "When the coin arrived, I liked the way it look and openly told the dealer I would be keeping it."
You are the one that sent it to CAC and are responsible for any monetary loss if CAC is correct and PCGS is unable to help in this situation. >>
The above post is one I agree with "the most". If an 85% buy-back is offered, I consider that fair. I do not think the seller should be held to a 100% buyback after 17 days have passed and an opinion given by CAC.
If you know you're going to want the coin you buy to be approved by someone after the purchase (TPG, CAC, whoever), maybe you could ask the seller if they will guarantee that approval before you complete the purchase?
<< <i>Again, What would happen if the coin in question is sent to PCGS and they say its good? >>
Technically, at least three graders at PCGS have already said it's good... >>
Yes, but that was when the coin was freshly puttied and looking a lot better/different than it is today.
If I'm the seller I'd feel like an idiot for selling a puttied/AT'd/frosted/altered coin for a premium. There's no doubt I'd have to take it back with a 100% refund and pay the buyer for postage both ways. That's how I've handled stuff like this in the past. My mistake....my loss..........not the customer's loss. I don't care if they've been a dealer before or are known as a hot shot collector. The fact that I sold it is all that matters. There's not even a debate about this issue on a puttied coin imo. >>
Coin in-hand, dealer to dealer. You know what you're looking at, or you do not. The seller may not know. The buyer may not know.
Or maybe it wasn't doctored. CAC's opinion has nothing whatsoever to do with PCGS' guarantee. Nor does mine. Or yours.
If it was counterfeit, who makes it good? Not until PCGS says it's counterfeit. They took a 6-figure hit on a territorial once.
This is dealer to dealer. If PCGS wants to eat the coin, or make a financial adjustment to the buyer, so be it. Whatever the review service, if they still like it, so be it.
No one in this transaction is entitled to the protection of the innocent or unknowing. No one in this transaction has an expectation of being rescued from their own lack of competence, their reliance upon the expertise of another.
All the collectors posting or lurking here can relax. It's enlightened self-interest for your dealer to have your back. Don't project your feelings as a collector, prudently and rightly skeptical, even fearful, about your lack of ability to protect yourself from grief or harm, into a dealer-to-dealer transaction.
You're a pro and you were wrong, got fooled? Happens to world-class experts every day.
Remarkable how many collectors who know bupkis about nitty-gritty wholesale have an opinion.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
1) I don't care how many coins Ankur buys or sell. I would never participate in a deal with him. Too much potential for drama.
2) As a dealer I would have taken the coin back at 100%.
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>You're a pro and you were wrong, got fooled? Happens to world-class experts every day. >>
Some people want to be pros but when something goes wrong, want somebody else to take the hit. Is that happening here? I have no idea- I'm just sayin'...
<< <i>Again, What would happen if the coin in question is sent to PCGS and they say its good? >>
Technically, at least three graders at PCGS have already said it's good... >>
Yes, but that was when the coin was freshly puttied and looking a lot better/different than it is today.
If I'm the seller I'd feel like an idiot for selling a puttied/AT'd/frosted/altered coin for a premium. There's no doubt I'd have to take it back with a 100% refund and pay the buyer for postage both ways. That's how I've handled stuff like this in the past. My mistake....my loss..........not the customer's loss. I don't care if they've been a dealer before or are known as a hot shot collector. The fact that I sold it is all that matters. There's not even a debate about this issue on a puttied coin imo. >>
I have to agree with this >>
Hmmm. So you're positive you've never sold a coin in a non-PCGS holder that subsequently didn't cross to PCGS because they deemed it AT or altered surfaces? Assuming that scenario has happened to someone (if not you), should they "feel like an idiot" for selling the coin (even though they never submitted it to PCGS when they owned it)? What exactly is the difference between this scenario and the one that started this thread?
I'll spare you my opinions... As a collector, I get the feeling they are not welcome here.
So it seems if a collector makes a costly mistake, it's "tuition". If a dealer makes a similar mistake, you might want to refer to it as..."the cost of doing business".
I changed my mind....... I'm going to give a taste of my opinion. I feel as if both parties are making too much of this relatively minor issue. As the seller, I would have offered a 100% return and then personally taken up the task of resubmission to PCGS for review and accepted the consequences...this is- "the cost of doing business". As the buyer, I would have likely not have pushed hard for the 100% on the return and taken some responsibility for my part in the original "business transaction" and agreement to purchase the coin.... Tuition/cost of doing business.... It's a fine line. Not enough $ at stake to be worth all the fuss IMO....
Thank you for the education and entertainment though. I learned a LOT!!!
Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014
Third, as a dealer, Ankur should know better than to come onto a public forum and call another dealer out. What dealer in his right mind is going to want to do biz with Ankur after this fiasco? >>
RYK, since you came out of hibernation, I felt it was fair to respond to your post. There is no trouble here, only you seem to feel that way (what a surprise). Mike and I spoke privately before me posting here. In fact he said he will decide what to do based on how other members here feel.
Third: As previously stated, Mike and I spoke before I posted this, and he had no problem with me posting about it here.
Ankur >>
I was just re-reading the thread and wanted to clarify this a bit. Ankur and I did exchange a few private messages before this thread was posted, but I didn't exactly have "no problem" with this matter being posted publicly.
After I made my approximately 85% buy back offer (which happened to also be the full PCGS Price Guide price of the coin in the amount of $1130) Ankur immediately rejected that offer and told me that he'd keep all of this in mind for future deals and that he planned to seek the opinion of the board on what they felt a fair resolution should have been. I was a bit surprised by that response which I sort of viewed as a threat. In response, I reiterated that I thought my offer was reasonable to him and that it was up to him whether to chose seek out the opinions of others, publicly if he desires and that in the event he chose to do that I would remain open minded about changing my mind.
Only after I saw that Ankur had actually posted this thread did I mention to him that I thought it would be best to see what the rest of the forum thinks before discussing the matter with him any further and/or deciding to do anything else about it.
That said, to Ankur's credit, he did not reveal I was the seller from the start and I chose to out myself.
<< <i>PCGS price guide says AU58 is $1130, AU50 $1020?
So the whole argument is over $110? What is the point of this thread? I think you were hoping for an upgrade to MS62 (PCGS price guide $2000). You lost. Thank you. Come again.
Submitting to PCGS will get you nothing after s/h fees. Any "premium" you paid is not covered by their warranty. So maybe they soak it in acetone and downgrade to AU55 (PCGS price guide $1100).
My question is, why did you think this coin was worth an upgrade? >>
I never felt it would upgrade. In fact I felt it was overgraded. >>
Yet..........you paid a "premium" for the coin??
<< <i> I did pay a premium for the look the coin had, and did not realize it was doctored. >>
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>I haven't seen an answer to this question in my mind at any point in the thread although I may have overlooked it.
Ankur, how do you know CAC didn't sticker the coin because of putty/doctoring?
Did they correspond directly to you as to this being the reason?
I have submitted over a thousand coins to them with a decently high rate of stickering, well above average and never have they sent an unstickered coin back saying it didn't sticker because of puttying. Two times they put a little sticker on it saying PVC but never anything else. Just curious how you received this information and from whom at CAC?
Thanks >>
Glenn, I did speak with John afterwards about the coin. I was told there is putty on both the obverse and reverse. My reason for submitting was also because I was unsure of the color being natural.
In regards to me being a dealer. Yes for over a year I did so on a part time basis. Last month I decided to take a break due to other priorities so I shut down my site and wholesaled most of my inventory. However I did stand behind what I sold. In one instance a coin I sold turned out to be altered, and I bought it back at the full purchase price. >>
Strange. "When the coin arrived, I liked the way it look and openly told the dealer I would be keeping it. " and now "My reason for submitting was also because I was unsure of the color being natural. "
Realities aren't quite adding up other than "I didn't get my way so I'll use the forum to get my way."
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>but since I paid a premium for the look the coin... >>
and from a later post:
<< <i>I never felt it would upgrade. In fact I felt it was overgraded. >>
This seems odd. Why would you pay a premium for a coin you think is overgraded? >>
The premium was paid for the color/look based on images. When recieved on hand I felt the coin wad overgraded. The premium was paid based on images. >>
Huh?
Whats it gonna be?
"When the coin arrived, I liked the way it look and openly told the dealer I would be keeping it. "
OR
"When recieved on hand I felt the coin wad overgraded."
This is getting silly now.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
I did have an experience with a dealer about purchasing a putty coin from a dealer and this is how it went. About 4 years ago, I bought a gold coin that I thought it was beautiful. 6 Months later I showed it to another dealer and he thought it had putty on it. At that time, I did realize putty was being used on coins. I showed it back to the dealer and his comment to me was that he would take the coin back for a full refund. The dealer agreed with me that the coin was puttied and he didn't know it was puttied at the time he sold it to me. I gave him back the coin for a full refund.
Long story short, I love coin collecting, had this dealer not did the right thing, then maybe I switch to art collecting.
I think Mike and Ankur did nothing wrong. Both fooled by putty. It should go back to PCGS and see what they have to say about the coin. From there, I'm sure Mike and Ankur can work it out.
The problem is not the coin. I'm dumber than a manhole cover and even I do not have to read between the lines. With that said, when I seek advice it's because I need it before I make a decision. I have witenessed more people seeking "sides" here only to judge and misjudge others. I think a lot of people went to public school and never had to pay tuition.
I don't think I would have posted this thread in the first place as there were several other options available.
I have the feeling that this thread was started as retribution for the 10% difference in what the seller offered and what the buyer wanted. That doesn't seem to be a respectful way to go.
I know both parties which are the subject of this post and consider them to be good folks.
My last thoughts on this thread.
1. It's disappointing it was posted in the first place and not worked out between them. Too easy to not work on a solution privately with respect for the other's position, jump in publicly and try to get folks on your side. I just don't feel that is the way to go. Mike has been a full time dealer for only a short time, I think he has learned from this, and will handle a situation like this differently going forward.
2. The real culprit here is the guy who puttied the coin (if CAC is correct and they likely are), not Mike or Ankur. Sadly, whoever committed this act has gotten away with it and created this conflict of how to handle this coin, causing angst. I don't fault PCGS, Mike, or Ankur they are the victims.
So work it out in a reasonable manner, get the coin in for review and take care of the problem responsibly. Until PCGS reviews the coin no one knows what sort of $$ situation can be worked out anyway.
To be fair Ankur has a nasty habit of trying to renegotiate long done deals after sending his coins to CAC. He puts such absolute faith in JA opinion which is wise since he isn't a very good grader but he doesn't mind trying to buy on the cheap without stickers trying to realize the up tick in price if it makes the cut.
IMO he cant have it both ways, he is either a dealer who needs to take his wins/lumps based off of his own eye like a professional or play the hapless collector bit and only buy coins that already have the bells and whistles applied that are maxed out prices wise accordingly.
After reading this thread, I wonder how many forum members will avoid doing a coin transaction with Ankurj.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
To be fair Ankur has a nasty habit of trying to renegotiate long done deals after sending his coins to CAC. He puts such absolute faith in JA opinion which is wise since he isn't a very good grader but he doesn't mind trying to buy on the cheap without stickers trying to realize the up tick in price if it makes the cut. IMO he cant have it both ways, he is either a dealer who needs to take his wins/lumps based off of his own eye like a professional or play the hapless collector bit and only buy coins that already have the bells and whistles applied that are maxed out prices wise accordingly.
This hits the nail on the head. For those wanting to cut to the chase this post is it.
<< <i>To be fair Ankur has a nasty habit of trying to renegotiate long done deals after sending his coins to CAC. He puts such absolute faith in JA opinion which is wise since he isn't a very good grader but he doesn't mind trying to buy on the cheap without stickers trying to realize the up tick in price if it makes the cut. IMO he cant have it both ways, he is either a dealer who needs to take his wins/lumps based off of his own eye like a professional or play the hapless collector bit and only buy coins that already have the bells and whistles applied that are maxed out prices wise accordingly.
This hits the nail on the head. For those wanting to cut to the chase this post is it. >>
I'm guess that he is a bit surprised at the course that this thread has taken.
<< <i>After reading this thread, I wonder how many forum members will avoid doing a coin transaction with Ankurj. >>
Ankur is already on many many people's black list for being like this. He has done this exact thing with me and similar to a half dozen of my friends. I sold him a xf 45 gold coin telling him it would need to be crossed into a 40 holder to sticker (sold it for 40 price). 3 months later he PM me demanding a partial refund. All of this was after trying to get one when he first received the coin and I told him full return or nothing. He kept the coin and tried again.
I wouldn't sell him pocket change for its weight in gold prices. It isn't worth the drama.
Boosibri: Nothing surprises me anymore about this forum. That is why I do not post as much as I used to. The two members above are those I haven't gotten along with for years, so their chiming in is no surprise. Even though a full apology was made and accepted by Crypto, he still holds s grudge. The only surprise is they didn't post earlier.
All coins kept in bank vaults. PCGS Registries Box of 20 SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>To be fair Ankur has a nasty habit of trying to renegotiate long done deals after sending his coins to CAC. He puts such absolute faith in JA opinion which is wise since he isn't a very good grader but he doesn't mind trying to buy on the cheap without stickers trying to realize the up tick in price if it makes the cut. IMO he cant have it both ways, he is either a dealer who needs to take his wins/lumps based off of his own eye like a professional or play the hapless collector bit and only buy coins that already have the bells and whistles applied that are maxed out prices wise accordingly.
This hits the nail on the head. For those wanting to cut to the chase this post is it. >>
I'm guess that he is a bit surprised at the course that this thread has taken. >>
Agree. I think his reputation and his standing here has been damaged by this thread. Instead of whining he should just send the coin back to PCGS so they can fix it. They'll probably remove the putty and re-slab it at the same grade. I wouldn't be surprised if removing the putty exposes some nice underlying luster resulting in a more attractive coin.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I think RYK, ColonelJessup and Crypto made some good observations.
It has become apparent in this hobby/business that coins graded by PCGS and CAC approved tend to carry the most value and are in strongest demand, but this "finished product" also costs the most to purchase in the marketplace.
One practice is to try buying unstickered coins and/or coins in non-PCGS holders at a discounted price, then try to add value by crossing/stickering coins and "creating" finished product. The kicker is, at least from a dealer standpoint, that sometimes this works and sometimes it doesn't. If one is trying to buy coins cheaper because they are not PCGS/CAC and then add value through grading and stickers, they need to be prepared for coins to not work sometimes.
If someone wants to use the assertion that they are a dealer in a transaction as a negotiating tool (not sure if that was the case here, but it certainly could have been), then be prepared to buy a coin in a quick sight-seen transaction without all of the securities and benefits that a retail collector receives in a transaction (but pays for in essence by paying a retail price).
FWIW, I have seen coins that had grease/putty on them in all TPG holders as well as in CAC Stickered holders.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -- Aristotle
For a large selection of U.S. Coins & Currency, visit The Reeded Edge's online webstore at the link below.
My above post stated, I would always try to work with a retail customer on any coin that they were not happy with, especially any coin that was potentially problematic.
The problem is when situations involving guaranteeing the crossing or CAC stickering of a coin get taken advantage of.
For example, I had the following scenario play out with an early copper coin. I had listed it for sale at a certain price. A collector/quasi-dealer calls and wants to buy the coin, but wants it to CAC sticker. I had done previous business with this person and felt the coin would sticker, so I offered the following options:
1) They could buy the coin at less than my asking price and have a sight-seen return privilege, but no CAC guarantee. 2) I could send the coin to CAC, and if it stickered, they would pay my original listed price (which was fair because the coin would be worth more stickered and would be one I would price higher).
The person opted to have me submit the coin to CAC. Well the coin came back with a sticker, and when I informed the prospective buyer, they tried to counter me and hammer me on the coin price, despite our previous discussion. I simply declined, listed the coin for sale with the CAC sticker at about $200 more than I had offered it to the original customer and sold it immediately. They were upset that I "sold them out", but I was bothered that they took advantage of my fair offer, then tried to renegotiate the terms after I had stickered the coin for them.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -- Aristotle
For a large selection of U.S. Coins & Currency, visit The Reeded Edge's online webstore at the link below.
<< <i>Boosibri: Nothing surprises me anymore about this forum. That is why I do not post as much as I used to. The two members above are those I haven't gotten along with for years, so their chiming in is no surprise. Even though a full apology was made and accepted by Crypto, he still holds s grudge. The only surprise is they didn't post earlier. >>
There is a difference between accepting your apology and respecting you. This isn't 2nd grade, a quick obligatory "I'm sorry" doesn't repair perceived personality flaws be they real or Imagined. There is no grudge, just a warning to other sellers that there is a cost to doing business with you.
<< <i>If it were in my power , this thread would go poof. The damage is done and the coin is still the same. What remains is human tragedy and travesty. >>
It's also one of the realities of the hobby. Ever so often there will be conflicts and issues that arise. Not everyone chooses to deal with them in the same way.
I have had two dealings with Ankur and both went smoothly. After the most recent one I sorta remarked TIC that maybe I should have asked for more $$ for the one I sold.
Wow, this thread is almost as goofy as ones on the car forums I spend most of my time on. IMHO I don't feel that Illini is under any obligation to the buyer to take the coin back. That being said, as a small businessman(industrial real estate/landlord), I compromise on stuff all the time to make deals happen, or problems go away. Seller offered a 15% restocking fee, buyer wanted 5%, you guys couldn't meat in the middle at 10%? I'm also amazed it took nine pages before someone else mentioned 10%. I don't buy gold and am a noob, thanks for the education about "puttying" of gold. Should have been a poll at the beginning, seeing as how we Romans are to decide the fate of this deal.
I have had two dealings with Ankur and both went smoothly. After the most recent one I sorta remarked TIC that maybe I should have asked for more $$ for the one I sold. >>
When coins are sold low and a profit can be made isn't were the OP has proven to be problematic, it's the preponderance of the transactions that he feels entitled to a reset button.
To be fair to Ankur he doesn't have a bad disposition and his checks are always good, there are worse buyers out there for sure. This is just a habit he needs to grow out of.
I won't comment on the direct issues but on the underlying issue that someone else did bring up.....initial communication can be key.
Case in point, a few years back, a board member (no longer posts and I am afraid that is likely due to health reasons taking their toll) that I did not know other than seeing a few posts, was selling some raw gold coins on the BST. I don't collect gold coins but the prices seemed somewhat reasonable and they were AUish coins with a nice look and I wanted a date that he had, for my son.
I contacted him with my offer (slightly below what he was asking) and politely expressed that I was no gold expert and, nothing against him, but I was concerned about problem/fake coins. He said he would send to me, without payment, and that once I received them, if I was ok with them, to pay the agreed upon amount. If I wasn't ok, send them back.
This was before CAC and I did not want to screw with the seller and make him wait while I sent to PCGS....so, I took to a local dealer, within 24 hours of receipt, and got his opinion. I sent the money that day. About 2 years ago, I sent them to PCGS (all holdered, within the range the seller said they would). Last year, I sent to CAC, all but 1 holdered. The non-holder coin was still liked, but at 1 grade lower (ie,,,AU53 instead of AU55) according to JA. No issues with the coin though.
So, I do believe that if you know you DON'T know enough about what you are buying, but still want it, try being upfront and saying you want it but wonder if the seller is ok if you get another opinion....and put a time limit/condition on it.
Golly, this ol' thread is still getting replies? Shocking!
Boosibri, this ain't the OP's first rodeo, and I am surprised that PerryHall does not remember previous fiascos here and ATS.
TwoSides, I believe that deleting a thread like this erases important background information that would be required reading for someone to deal with the OP. It would be unfair to the next victim.
For those who recommend that Illini return 100% to the OP, any dealer who offered 100% to other dealers when coins did not work would be in the poor house pretty quickly.
The coin, per the photo, has areas of concern, but I cannot condemn the coin based on the photo. In hand, it might be different.
Now, for the OP's benefit, I will offer two personal tales on how a Big Boy handles the situation, next time it comes up.
Several years ago I purchased the most expensive coin that I had ever purchased from a dealer that I knew very well and liked very much. A couple years later, much to my horror, the coin turned in its holder. I was very disappointed. Could I have gone back to the dealer and asked for my money back? Yes, and he likely would have given my every penny. Instead, I had the coin fixed, it turned out reasonably well, but I was stung by the overall experience, and sold the coin for a substantial loss. Did I come here and cry about it or try to use the forum to leverage a solution to my greater advantage? Of course not. Only a weasel would do something like that.
More recently, I purchased, quasi-sight unseen (read: punitive return policy) a high grade gold coin that I needed for quite some time. I received the coin, and clearly there was some surface issue. I did not need someone else to tell me that. It was in a PCGS holder, and I sent the coin in for appearance review, the coin was fixed, and it looks quite lovely now. It may or may not CAC (I never submitted it, before or after), but the coin looks like it belongs in the holder and solid for the grade. Problem solved. I guess I could have called the dealer out on the forum, and coerced a more advantageous solution for myself, but I have some pride, have a reputation to consider, and want dealers to come to me when they have coins I might want, not run away from me.
One thing that I would never, ever, ever do is use the forum to try to gain a couple hundreds dollars from someone else in a transaction gone awry, especially when I was the one who agreed to the transaction. Very poor form. So there are problems that can be solved without making a public spectacle of oneself.
<< <i>If it were in my power , this thread would go poof. The damage is done and the coin is still the same. What remains is human tragedy and travesty. >>
It's also one of the realities of the hobby. Ever so often there will be conflicts and issues that arise. Not everyone chooses to deal with them in the same way.
I have had two dealings with Ankur and both went smoothly. After the most recent one I sorta remarked TIC that maybe I should have asked for more $$ for the one I sold. >>
The reality of this forum is that more than 1/2 of the topics here relate to dishonesty. Whether it's the unscientific chemical alterations applied to coins, or downright FRAUD, your "profession"/hobby is fraught with unscrupulous jerks who think they will receive some kind of happiness or measure of increase to their life by cheating people. If you want a true accounting of Numismatics, take a real accurate look at the physical appearance and mental stability of most coin dealers at shows, and most of you would do an about face and walk out immediately. The hobby is ruined.
With all due respect, my "poof" response is born of a want for protecting the integrity of all the members, as well as the hobby. It's clear that every deal is not going to be satisfactory and it's even clearer that some guys will always get the "upper hand" in the market. In this case it's the "doctor". And we can see how the DOCTOR is the cause, while we witness the effects. Then comes another entity that can spot issues that were hard to detect when these techniques first fooled the experts.
Long story short, ... we got us a screwed up coin in our beloved holder.
"History repeats itself. The first time as tragedy, the second as farce"
Indeed. Perceptions do matter. If this kind of deal had happened to me, I would simply have internalized it, and declined to do business with the dealer again. Making a public fuss about something like $100 or so? Bad PR purchased on the cheap. Some people never learn.
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
<< <i>Golly, this ol' thread is still getting replies? Shocking!
Boosibri, this ain't the OP's first rodeo, and I am surprised that PerryHall does not remember previous fiascos here and ATS.
TwoSides, I believe that deleting a thread like this erases important background information that would be required reading for someone to deal with the OP. It would be unfair to the next victim.
For those who recommend that Illini return 100% to the OP, any dealer who offered 100% to other dealers when coins did not work would be in the poor house pretty quickly.
The coin, per the photo, has areas of concern, but I cannot condemn the coin based on the photo. In hand, it might be different.
Now, for the OP's benefit, I will offer two personal tales on how a Big Boy handles the situation, next time it comes up.
Several years ago I purchased the most expensive coin that I had ever purchased from a dealer that I knew very well and liked very much. A couple years later, much to my horror, the coin turned in its holder. I was very disappointed. Could I have gone back to the dealer and asked for my money back? Yes, and he likely would have given my every penny. Instead, I had the coin fixed, it turned out reasonably well, but I was stung by the overall experience, and sold the coin for a substantial loss. Did I come here and cry about it or try to use the forum to leverage a solution to my greater advantage? Of course not. Only a weasel would do something like that.
More recently, I purchased, quasi-sight unseen (read: punitive return policy) a high grade gold coin that I needed for quite some time. I received the coin, and clearly there was some surface issue. I did not need someone else to tell me that. It was in a PCGS holder, and I sent the coin in for appearance review, the coin was fixed, and it looks quite lovely now. It may or may not CAC (I never submitted it, before or after), but the coin looks like it belongs in the holder and solid for the grade. Problem solved. I guess I could have called the dealer out on the forum, and coerced a more advantageous solution for myself, but I have some pride, have a reputation to consider, and want dealers to come to me when they have coins I might want, not run away from me.
One thing that I would never, ever, ever do is use the forum to try to gain a couple hundreds dollars from someone else in a transaction gone awry, especially when I was the one who agreed to the transaction. Very poor form. So there are problems that can be solved without making a public spectacle of oneself. >>
How do you fix the coin? And what becomes of it in 5 to 10 years?
One thing that can escalate in these types of threads is that suddenly "most dealers or scum" or that "most collectors are difficult to deal with."
Altough there are certainly problems in this hobby, and there are both some problematic dealers and buyers out there, the majority of numismatic transactios go smoothly and pleasantly. This is overall a great hobby/business to be involved in. I haven't reached 30 yet, and I certainly hope to be around it a long time.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -- Aristotle
For a large selection of U.S. Coins & Currency, visit The Reeded Edge's online webstore at the link below.
<< <i>PCGS price guide says AU58 is $1130, AU50 $1020?
So the whole argument is over $110? What is the point of this thread? I think you were hoping for an upgrade to MS62 (PCGS price guide $2000). You lost. Thank you. Come again.
Submitting to PCGS will get you nothing after s/h fees. Any "premium" you paid is not covered by their warranty. So maybe they soak it in acetone and downgrade to AU55 (PCGS price guide $1100).
My question is, why did you think this coin was worth an upgrade? >>
I never felt it would upgrade. In fact I felt it was overgraded. >>
Why would you pay a premium for a coin you felt was overgraded; and why would you attempt to CAC a coin you felt was overgraded? Your song seems to be out of tune, badly.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>My reason for submitting was also because I was unsure of the color being natural. >>
By your own words, you thought the coin was over graded and was unsure of the color being natural. You should have returned the coin upon receipt. The deal was done with the dealer you purchased the coin from especially from what you wrote in your original post when you said "When the coin arrived, I liked the way it look and openly told the dealer I would be keeping it."
You are the one that sent it to CAC and are responsible for any monetary loss if CAC is correct and PCGS is unable to help in this situation. >>
The above post is one I agree with "the most". If an 85% buy-back is offered, I consider that fair. I do not think the seller should be held to a 100% buyback after 17 days have passed and an opinion given by CAC.
Just a thought...
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Again, What would happen if the coin in question is sent to PCGS and they say its good? >>
Technically, at least three graders at PCGS have already said it's good... >>
Yes, but that was when the coin was freshly puttied and looking a lot better/different than it is today.
If I'm the seller I'd feel like an idiot for selling a puttied/AT'd/frosted/altered coin for a premium. There's no doubt I'd have to take it back with a 100% refund and pay the buyer
for postage both ways. That's how I've handled stuff like this in the past. My mistake....my loss..........not the customer's loss. I don't care if they've been a dealer before or are
known as a hot shot collector. The fact that I sold it is all that matters. There's not even a debate about this issue on a puttied coin imo. >>
I have to agree with this
Or maybe it wasn't doctored. CAC's opinion has nothing whatsoever to do with PCGS' guarantee. Nor does mine. Or yours.
If it was counterfeit, who makes it good? Not until PCGS says it's counterfeit. They took a 6-figure hit on a territorial once.
This is dealer to dealer. If PCGS wants to eat the coin, or make a financial adjustment to the buyer, so be it. Whatever the review service, if they still like it, so be it.
No one in this transaction is entitled to the protection of the innocent or unknowing. No one in this transaction has an expectation of being rescued from their own lack of competence, their reliance upon the expertise of another.
All the collectors posting or lurking here can relax. It's enlightened self-interest for your dealer to have your back. Don't project your feelings as a collector, prudently and rightly skeptical, even fearful, about your lack of ability to protect yourself from grief or harm, into a dealer-to-dealer transaction.
You're a pro and you were wrong, got fooled? Happens to world-class experts every day.
Remarkable how many collectors who know bupkis about nitty-gritty wholesale have an opinion.
1) I don't care how many coins Ankur buys or sell. I would never participate in a deal with him. Too much potential for drama.
2) As a dealer I would have taken the coin back at 100%.
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>You're a pro and you were wrong, got fooled? Happens to world-class experts every day. >>
Some people want to be pros but when something goes wrong, want somebody else to take the hit. Is that happening here? I have no idea- I'm just sayin'...
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Again, What would happen if the coin in question is sent to PCGS and they say its good? >>
Technically, at least three graders at PCGS have already said it's good... >>
Yes, but that was when the coin was freshly puttied and looking a lot better/different than it is today.
If I'm the seller I'd feel like an idiot for selling a puttied/AT'd/frosted/altered coin for a premium. There's no doubt I'd have to take it back with a 100% refund and pay the buyer
for postage both ways. That's how I've handled stuff like this in the past. My mistake....my loss..........not the customer's loss. I don't care if they've been a dealer before or are
known as a hot shot collector. The fact that I sold it is all that matters. There's not even a debate about this issue on a puttied coin imo. >>
I have to agree with this >>
Hmmm. So you're positive you've never sold a coin in a non-PCGS holder that subsequently didn't cross to PCGS
because they deemed it AT or altered surfaces? Assuming that scenario has happened to someone (if not you),
should they "feel like an idiot" for selling the coin (even though they never submitted it to PCGS when they owned
it)? What exactly is the difference between this scenario and the one that started this thread?
I'll spare you my opinions... As a collector, I get the feeling they are not welcome here.
So it seems if a collector makes a costly mistake, it's "tuition".
If a dealer makes a similar mistake, you might want to refer to it as..."the cost of doing business".
I changed my mind....... I'm going to give a taste of my opinion.
I feel as if both parties are making too much of this relatively minor issue.
As the seller, I would have offered a 100% return and then personally taken up the task of resubmission to PCGS for review and accepted the consequences...this is-
"the cost of doing business".
As the buyer, I would have likely not have pushed hard for the 100% on the return and taken some responsibility for my part in the original "business transaction" and agreement to purchase the coin.... Tuition/cost of doing business.... It's a fine line.
Not enough $ at stake to be worth all the fuss IMO....
Thank you for the education and entertainment though. I learned a LOT!!!
Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014
<< <i>
<< <i>
Third, as a dealer, Ankur should know better than to come onto a public forum and call another dealer out. What dealer in his right mind is going to want to do biz with Ankur after this fiasco?
>>
RYK, since you came out of hibernation, I felt it was fair to respond to your post. There is no trouble here, only you seem to feel that way (what a surprise). Mike and I spoke privately before me posting here. In fact he said he will decide what to do based on how other members here feel.
Third: As previously stated, Mike and I spoke before I posted this, and he had no problem with me posting about it here.
Ankur >>
I was just re-reading the thread and wanted to clarify this a bit. Ankur and I did exchange a few private messages before this thread was posted, but I didn't exactly have "no problem" with this matter being posted publicly.
After I made my approximately 85% buy back offer (which happened to also be the full PCGS Price Guide price of the coin in the amount of $1130) Ankur immediately rejected that offer and told me that he'd keep all of this in mind for future deals and that he planned to seek the opinion of the board on what they felt a fair resolution should have been. I was a bit surprised by that response which I sort of viewed as a threat. In response, I reiterated that I thought my offer was reasonable to him and that it was up to him whether to chose seek out the opinions of others, publicly if he desires and that in the event he chose to do that I would remain open minded about changing my mind.
Only after I saw that Ankur had actually posted this thread did I mention to him that I thought it would be best to see what the rest of the forum thinks before discussing the matter with him any further and/or deciding to do anything else about it.
That said, to Ankur's credit, he did not reveal I was the seller from the start and I chose to out myself.
Thanks again for all of the comments posted.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
<< <i>
<< <i>PCGS price guide says AU58 is $1130, AU50 $1020?
So the whole argument is over $110? What is the point of this thread? I think you were hoping for an upgrade to MS62 (PCGS price guide $2000). You lost. Thank you. Come again.
Submitting to PCGS will get you nothing after s/h fees. Any "premium" you paid is not covered by their warranty. So maybe they soak it in acetone and downgrade to AU55 (PCGS price guide $1100).
My question is, why did you think this coin was worth an upgrade? >>
I never felt it would upgrade. In fact I felt it was overgraded. >>
Yet..........you paid a "premium" for the coin??
<< <i> I did pay a premium for the look the coin had, and did not realize it was doctored. >>
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>I haven't seen an answer to this question in my mind at any point in the thread although I may have overlooked it.
Ankur, how do you know CAC didn't sticker the coin because of putty/doctoring?
Did they correspond directly to you as to this being the reason?
I have submitted over a thousand coins to them with a decently high rate of stickering, well above average and never have they sent an unstickered coin back saying it didn't sticker because of puttying. Two times they put a little sticker on it saying PVC but never anything else. Just curious how you received this information and from whom at CAC?
Thanks >>
Glenn,
I did speak with John afterwards about the coin. I was told there is putty on both the obverse and reverse. My reason for submitting was also because I was unsure of the color being natural.
In regards to me being a dealer. Yes for over a year I did so on a part time basis. Last month I decided to take a break due to other priorities so I shut down my site and wholesaled most of my inventory. However I did stand behind what I sold. In one instance a coin I sold turned out to be altered, and I bought it back at the full purchase price. >>
Strange. "When the coin arrived, I liked the way it look and openly told the dealer I would be keeping it. " and now "My reason for submitting was also because I was unsure of the color being natural. "
Realities aren't quite adding up other than "I didn't get my way so I'll use the forum to get my way."
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>From the first post:
<< <i>but since I paid a premium for the look the coin... >>
and from a later post:
<< <i>I never felt it would upgrade. In fact I felt it was overgraded. >>
This seems odd. Why would you pay a premium for a coin you think is overgraded? >>
The premium was paid for the color/look based on images.
When recieved on hand I felt the coin wad overgraded. The premium was paid based on images. >>
Huh?
Whats it gonna be?
"When the coin arrived, I liked the way it look and openly told the dealer I would be keeping it. "
OR
"When recieved on hand I felt the coin wad overgraded."
This is getting silly now.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
This is getting silly now.
a silly thread.. about putty
I have learned this in life and love, sometimes the hard way.
Eric
WOW!
The coin is in a PCGS AU58 holder. For $1330, you could get an MS61,
probably with no putty.
I don't see anything in the coin to make it worth $1330 or even the PCGS "value" of
$1130.
Now, we understand why the "send it back to PCGS" scenario won't work.
The price on the original sale and even the buyback offer are just too high.
Long story short, I love coin collecting, had this dealer not did the right thing, then maybe I switch to art collecting.
With that said, when I seek advice it's because I need it before I make a decision. I have witenessed more people seeking "sides" here only to judge and misjudge others. I think a lot of people went to public school and never had to pay tuition.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
I have the feeling that this thread was started as retribution for the 10% difference in what the seller offered and what the buyer wanted.
That doesn't seem to be a respectful way to go.
My last thoughts on this thread.
1. It's disappointing it was posted in the first place and not worked out between them. Too easy to not work on a solution privately with respect for the other's position, jump in publicly and try to get folks on your side. I just don't feel that is the way to go. Mike has been a full time dealer for only a short time, I think he has learned from this, and will handle a situation like this differently going forward.
2. The real culprit here is the guy who puttied the coin (if CAC is correct and they likely are), not Mike or Ankur. Sadly, whoever committed this act has gotten away with it and created this conflict of how to handle this coin, causing angst. I don't fault PCGS, Mike, or Ankur they are the victims.
So work it out in a reasonable manner, get the coin in for review and take care of the problem responsibly. Until PCGS reviews the coin no one knows what sort of $$ situation can be worked out anyway.
Website-Americana Rare Coin Inc
IMO he cant have it both ways, he is either a dealer who needs to take his wins/lumps based off of his own eye like a professional or play the hapless collector bit and only buy coins that already have the bells and whistles applied that are maxed out prices wise accordingly.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
This hits the nail on the head. For those wanting to cut to the chase this post is it.
<< <i>To be fair Ankur has a nasty habit of trying to renegotiate long done deals after sending his coins to CAC. He puts such absolute faith in JA opinion which is wise since he isn't a very good grader but he doesn't mind trying to buy on the cheap without stickers trying to realize the up tick in price if it makes the cut. IMO he cant have it both ways, he is either a dealer who needs to take his wins/lumps based off of his own eye like a professional or play the hapless collector bit and only buy coins that already have the bells and whistles applied that are maxed out prices wise accordingly.
This hits the nail on the head. For those wanting to cut to the chase this post is it. >>
I'm guess that he is a bit surprised at the course that this thread has taken.
Latin American Collection
<< <i>After reading this thread, I wonder how many forum members will avoid doing a coin transaction with Ankurj.
Ankur is already on many many people's black list for being like this. He has done this exact thing with me and similar to a half dozen of my friends. I sold him a xf 45 gold coin telling him it would need to be crossed into a 40 holder to sticker (sold it for 40 price). 3 months later he PM me demanding a partial refund. All of this was after trying to get one when he first received the coin and I told him full return or nothing. He kept the coin and tried again.
I wouldn't sell him pocket change for its weight in gold prices. It isn't worth the drama.
The two members above are those I haven't gotten along with for years, so their chiming in is no surprise. Even though a full apology was made and accepted by Crypto, he still holds s grudge. The only surprise is they didn't post earlier.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>
<< <i>To be fair Ankur has a nasty habit of trying to renegotiate long done deals after sending his coins to CAC. He puts such absolute faith in JA opinion which is wise since he isn't a very good grader but he doesn't mind trying to buy on the cheap without stickers trying to realize the up tick in price if it makes the cut. IMO he cant have it both ways, he is either a dealer who needs to take his wins/lumps based off of his own eye like a professional or play the hapless collector bit and only buy coins that already have the bells and whistles applied that are maxed out prices wise accordingly.
This hits the nail on the head. For those wanting to cut to the chase this post is it. >>
I'm guess that he is a bit surprised at the course that this thread has taken. >>
Agree. I think his reputation and his standing here has been damaged by this thread. Instead of whining he should just send the coin back to PCGS so they can fix it. They'll probably remove the putty and re-slab it at the same grade. I wouldn't be surprised if removing the putty exposes some nice underlying luster resulting in a more attractive coin.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
It has become apparent in this hobby/business that coins graded by PCGS and CAC approved tend to carry the most value and are in strongest demand, but this "finished product" also costs the most to purchase in the marketplace.
One practice is to try buying unstickered coins and/or coins in non-PCGS holders at a discounted price, then try to add value by crossing/stickering coins and "creating" finished product. The kicker is, at least from a dealer standpoint, that sometimes this works and sometimes it doesn't. If one is trying to buy coins cheaper because they are not PCGS/CAC and then add value through grading and stickers, they need to be prepared for coins to not work sometimes.
If someone wants to use the assertion that they are a dealer in a transaction as a negotiating tool (not sure if that was the case here, but it certainly could have been), then be prepared to buy a coin in a quick sight-seen transaction without all of the securities and benefits that a retail collector receives in a transaction (but pays for in essence by paying a retail price).
FWIW, I have seen coins that had grease/putty on them in all TPG holders as well as in CAC Stickered holders.
For a large selection of U.S. Coins & Currency, visit The Reeded Edge's online webstore at the link below.
The Reeded Edge
The problem is when situations involving guaranteeing the crossing or CAC stickering of a coin get taken advantage of.
For example, I had the following scenario play out with an early copper coin. I had listed it for sale at a certain price. A collector/quasi-dealer calls and wants to buy the coin, but wants it to CAC sticker. I had done previous business with this person and felt the coin would sticker, so I offered the following options:
1) They could buy the coin at less than my asking price and have a sight-seen return privilege, but no CAC guarantee.
2) I could send the coin to CAC, and if it stickered, they would pay my original listed price (which was fair because the coin would be worth more stickered and would be one I would price higher).
The person opted to have me submit the coin to CAC. Well the coin came back with a sticker, and when I informed the prospective buyer, they tried to counter me and hammer me on the coin price, despite our previous discussion. I simply declined, listed the coin for sale with the CAC sticker at about $200 more than I had offered it to the original customer and sold it immediately. They were upset that I "sold them out", but I was bothered that they took advantage of my fair offer, then tried to renegotiate the terms after I had stickered the coin for them.
For a large selection of U.S. Coins & Currency, visit The Reeded Edge's online webstore at the link below.
The Reeded Edge
<< <i>Boosibri: Nothing surprises me anymore about this forum. That is why I do not post as much as I used to.
The two members above are those I haven't gotten along with for years, so their chiming in is no surprise. Even though a full apology was made and accepted by Crypto, he still holds s grudge. The only surprise is they didn't post earlier. >>
There is a difference between accepting your apology and respecting you. This isn't 2nd grade, a quick obligatory "I'm sorry" doesn't repair perceived personality flaws be they real or Imagined. There is no grudge, just a warning to other sellers that there is a cost to doing business with you.
<< <i>..... What remains is human tragedy and travesty. >>
Quote from Marx (Karl, not Groucho, whom I like a lot more)
"History repeats itself. The first time as tragedy, the second as farce"
<< <i>If it were in my power , this thread would go poof. The damage is done and the coin is still the same. What remains is human tragedy and travesty. >>
It's also one of the realities of the hobby. Ever so often there will be conflicts and issues that arise. Not everyone chooses to deal with them in the same way.
I have had two dealings with Ankur and both went smoothly. After the most recent one I sorta remarked TIC that maybe I should have asked for more $$ for the one I sold.
IMHO I don't feel that Illini is under any obligation to the buyer to take the coin back.
That being said, as a small businessman(industrial real estate/landlord), I compromise on stuff all the time to make deals happen, or problems go away. Seller offered a 15% restocking fee, buyer wanted 5%, you guys couldn't meat in the middle at 10%? I'm also amazed it took nine pages before someone else mentioned 10%.
I don't buy gold and am a noob, thanks for the education about "puttying" of gold.
Should have been a poll at the beginning, seeing as how we Romans are to decide the fate of this deal.
<< <i>
I have had two dealings with Ankur and both went smoothly. After the most recent one I sorta remarked TIC that maybe I should have asked for more $$ for the one I sold.
When coins are sold low and a profit can be made isn't were the OP has proven to be problematic, it's the preponderance of the transactions that he feels entitled to a reset button.
To be fair to Ankur he doesn't have a bad disposition and his checks are always good, there are worse buyers out there for sure. This is just a habit he needs to grow out of.
I won't comment on the direct issues but on the underlying issue that someone else did bring up.....initial communication can be key.
Case in point, a few years back, a board member (no longer posts and I am afraid that is likely due to health reasons taking their toll) that I did not know other than seeing a few posts, was selling some raw gold coins on the BST. I don't collect gold coins but the prices seemed somewhat reasonable and they were AUish coins with a nice look and I wanted a date that he had, for my son.
I contacted him with my offer (slightly below what he was asking) and politely expressed that I was no gold expert and, nothing against him, but I was concerned about problem/fake coins. He said he would send to me, without payment, and that once I received them, if I was ok with them, to pay the agreed upon amount. If I wasn't ok, send them back.
This was before CAC and I did not want to screw with the seller and make him wait while I sent to PCGS....so, I took to a local dealer, within 24 hours of receipt, and got his opinion. I sent the money that day. About 2 years ago, I sent them to PCGS (all holdered, within the range the seller said they would). Last year, I sent to CAC, all but 1 holdered. The non-holder coin was still liked, but at 1 grade lower (ie,,,AU53 instead of AU55) according to JA. No issues with the coin though.
So, I do believe that if you know you DON'T know enough about what you are buying, but still want it, try being upfront and saying you want it but wonder if the seller is ok if you get another opinion....and put a time limit/condition on it.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Boosibri, this ain't the OP's first rodeo, and I am surprised that PerryHall does not remember previous fiascos here and ATS.
TwoSides, I believe that deleting a thread like this erases important background information that would be required reading for someone to deal with the OP. It would be unfair to the next victim.
For those who recommend that Illini return 100% to the OP, any dealer who offered 100% to other dealers when coins did not work would be in the poor house pretty quickly.
The coin, per the photo, has areas of concern, but I cannot condemn the coin based on the photo. In hand, it might be different.
Now, for the OP's benefit, I will offer two personal tales on how a Big Boy handles the situation, next time it comes up.
Several years ago I purchased the most expensive coin that I had ever purchased from a dealer that I knew very well and liked very much. A couple years later, much to my horror, the coin turned in its holder. I was very disappointed. Could I have gone back to the dealer and asked for my money back? Yes, and he likely would have given my every penny. Instead, I had the coin fixed, it turned out reasonably well, but I was stung by the overall experience, and sold the coin for a substantial loss. Did I come here and cry about it or try to use the forum to leverage a solution to my greater advantage? Of course not. Only a weasel would do something like that.
More recently, I purchased, quasi-sight unseen (read: punitive return policy) a high grade gold coin that I needed for quite some time. I received the coin, and clearly there was some surface issue. I did not need someone else to tell me that. It was in a PCGS holder, and I sent the coin in for appearance review, the coin was fixed, and it looks quite lovely now. It may or may not CAC (I never submitted it, before or after), but the coin looks like it belongs in the holder and solid for the grade. Problem solved. I guess I could have called the dealer out on the forum, and coerced a more advantageous solution for myself, but I have some pride, have a reputation to consider, and want dealers to come to me when they have coins I might want, not run away from me.
One thing that I would never, ever, ever do is use the forum to try to gain a couple hundreds dollars from someone else in a transaction gone awry, especially when I was the one who agreed to the transaction. Very poor form.
So there are problems that can be solved without making a public spectacle of oneself.
<< <i>
<< <i>If it were in my power , this thread would go poof. The damage is done and the coin is still the same. What remains is human tragedy and travesty. >>
It's also one of the realities of the hobby. Ever so often there will be conflicts and issues that arise. Not everyone chooses to deal with them in the same way.
I have had two dealings with Ankur and both went smoothly. After the most recent one I sorta remarked TIC that maybe I should have asked for more $$ for the one I sold.
The reality of this forum is that more than 1/2 of the topics here relate to dishonesty. Whether it's the unscientific chemical alterations applied to coins, or downright FRAUD, your "profession"/hobby is fraught with unscrupulous jerks who think they will receive some kind of happiness or measure of increase to their life by cheating people. If you want a true accounting of Numismatics, take a real accurate look at the physical appearance and mental stability of most coin dealers at shows, and most of you would do an about face and walk out immediately. The hobby is ruined.
Long story short, ... we got us a screwed up coin in our beloved holder.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Indeed. Perceptions do matter. If this kind of deal had happened to me, I would simply have internalized it, and declined to do business with the dealer again.
Making a public fuss about something like $100 or so? Bad PR purchased on the cheap. Some people never learn.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>Golly, this ol' thread is still getting replies? Shocking!
Boosibri, this ain't the OP's first rodeo, and I am surprised that PerryHall does not remember previous fiascos here and ATS.
TwoSides, I believe that deleting a thread like this erases important background information that would be required reading for someone to deal with the OP. It would be unfair to the next victim.
For those who recommend that Illini return 100% to the OP, any dealer who offered 100% to other dealers when coins did not work would be in the poor house pretty quickly.
The coin, per the photo, has areas of concern, but I cannot condemn the coin based on the photo. In hand, it might be different.
Now, for the OP's benefit, I will offer two personal tales on how a Big Boy handles the situation, next time it comes up.
Several years ago I purchased the most expensive coin that I had ever purchased from a dealer that I knew very well and liked very much. A couple years later, much to my horror, the coin turned in its holder. I was very disappointed. Could I have gone back to the dealer and asked for my money back? Yes, and he likely would have given my every penny. Instead, I had the coin fixed, it turned out reasonably well, but I was stung by the overall experience, and sold the coin for a substantial loss. Did I come here and cry about it or try to use the forum to leverage a solution to my greater advantage? Of course not. Only a weasel would do something like that.
More recently, I purchased, quasi-sight unseen (read: punitive return policy) a high grade gold coin that I needed for quite some time. I received the coin, and clearly there was some surface issue. I did not need someone else to tell me that. It was in a PCGS holder, and I sent the coin in for appearance review, the coin was fixed, and it looks quite lovely now. It may or may not CAC (I never submitted it, before or after), but the coin looks like it belongs in the holder and solid for the grade. Problem solved. I guess I could have called the dealer out on the forum, and coerced a more advantageous solution for myself, but I have some pride, have a reputation to consider, and want dealers to come to me when they have coins I might want, not run away from me.
One thing that I would never, ever, ever do is use the forum to try to gain a couple hundreds dollars from someone else in a transaction gone awry, especially when I was the one who agreed to the transaction. Very poor form.
So there are problems that can be solved without making a public spectacle of oneself. >>
How do you fix the coin? And what becomes of it in 5 to 10 years?
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Altough there are certainly problems in this hobby, and there are both some problematic dealers and buyers out there, the majority of numismatic transactios go smoothly and pleasantly. This is overall a great hobby/business to be involved in. I haven't reached 30 yet, and I certainly hope to be around it a long time.
For a large selection of U.S. Coins & Currency, visit The Reeded Edge's online webstore at the link below.
The Reeded Edge
<< <i>
<< <i>PCGS price guide says AU58 is $1130, AU50 $1020?
So the whole argument is over $110? What is the point of this thread? I think you were hoping for an upgrade to MS62 (PCGS price guide $2000). You lost. Thank you. Come again.
Submitting to PCGS will get you nothing after s/h fees. Any "premium" you paid is not covered by their warranty. So maybe they soak it in acetone and downgrade to AU55 (PCGS price guide $1100).
My question is, why did you think this coin was worth an upgrade? >>
I never felt it would upgrade. In fact I felt it was overgraded. >>
Why would you pay a premium for a coin you felt was overgraded; and why would you attempt to CAC a coin you felt was overgraded? Your song seems to be out of tune, badly.
Latin American Collection