As a collector, I gracefully withdraw my former response to the OP's dilemma, as we have been informed that we don't know 'bupkis' about buying or selling coins.
Here is the history, some guy with a few bucks starts buying coins and posting them here, almost all of them net graded, then becomes an internet vest pocket dealer relying on CAC to spot check his purchases mainly BEFORE he buys, then thinks he can make money the other way.
<< <i>Coin in-hand, dealer to dealer. You know what you're looking at, or you do not. The seller may not know. The buyer may not know.
Or maybe it wasn't doctored. CAC's opinion has nothing whatsoever to do with PCGS' guarantee. Nor does mine. Or yours.
If it was counterfeit, who makes it good? Not until PCGS says it's counterfeit. They took a 6-figure hit on a territorial once.
This is dealer to dealer. If PCGS wants to eat the coin, or make a financial adjustment to the buyer, so be it. Whatever the review service, if they still like it, so be it.
No one in this transaction is entitled to the protection of the innocent or unknowing. No one in this transaction has an expectation of being rescued from their own lack of competence, their reliance upon the expertise of another.
All the collectors posting or lurking here can relax. It's enlightened self-interest for your dealer to have your back. Don't project your feelings as a collector, prudently and rightly skeptical, even fearful, about your lack of ability to protect yourself from grief or harm, into a dealer-to-dealer transaction.
You're a pro and you were wrong, got fooled? Happens to world-class experts every day.
Remarkable how many collectors who know bupkis about nitty-gritty wholesale have an opinion. >>
I didn't say you didn't know how to buy or sell cons. I said
<< <i>nitty-gritty wholesale >>
. If you're not a dealer who's worked in the sausage factory, you have not acquired the real-life experience of dealer-to-dealer interactions that would enable you to make judgments in the specific professional subset of coin trading.
My problem is not with what collectors posting here don't know. It's what collectors posting here don't know that they don't know. Denial is a defense against the pain of consciously dealing with aspects of reality with which an individual cannot cope.
Dealers are held to a higher standard by collectors. And by other dealers insofar as to our dealings with collectors. We have an obligation to "have your back". Collectors can rightly, to varying degrees, expect dealers to perform some of their due diligence for them.
Seemingly, at least when convenient, the OP styles himself as a dealer. I've met him. I've seen him interact with other dealers. I classify him, using Laurie's term, as a "wannabe". As in "No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night! " But if he thinks he's a pickle, and calls himself one, he'll not ever again be entitled to be cut slack as a cucumber might be.
I have respect, patience, concern and solicitude for most collectors. Beginning dealers? I'll help. I'm a pretty decent guy, and it's also enlightened self-interest. Preening wannabe's? Hehehe. What's for lunch?.
Anyone who's read some of my posts may have seen me end a description of one of my own mistakes with If I'm not rigorous in my analysis of my business dealings, I will lose money making the same mistakes all over again.
If CRO or MrE or myself (or many other dealers who post here) had any disagreement with each other, would we be wasting your time?
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
After reading this thread, I would be very hesitant to do business with the OP, not because he seems to have some history of wanting to reset transactions, but primarily his "friendly" threat to start a public thread about the transaction, then claiming it was discussed and "fine" with the other party, which from the other party's post, is clearly a deception.
<< <i>Starting this thread was a Joke, unprofessional , and just stupid. IMHO Send it back to PCGS and get over it. >>
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Starting this thread was a Joke, unprofessional , and just stupid. IMHO Send it back to PCGS and get over it. >>
Agree. I think Ankurj did further damage to his already shaky reputation here. And I wouldn't hesitate to do a coin transaction with illini.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
If the coin was received in hand and approval acknowledged by Ankur regarding the quality, then ownership passed to him.
If an outside party (after the completed transfer of the coin) pointed out to the new owner that the coin was puttied, then that is a situation for the owner and the grading company to remedy. It doesn't matter why you purchased the coin (to resell or for your personal collection); all that matters is that you didn't have the knowledge to see the putty on your own.
You (Ankur) completed the transaction, and now you're trying to back-peddle and misplace your ignorance on the person from whom you purchased the coin. It's not as if you're some newbie to the business or hobby. I'd chalk this one up to a "learning experience".
-Brandon -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins] -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
Ankur's predicament illustrates an interesting conundrum. Anyone can call himself a dealer---just hang out a shingle. The coin business, however, is very rough, and skills acquired as an average collector don't even come close to what is needed to stay alive as a dealer. I suspect that many collectors fantasize about using their numismatic knowledge to make money by dealing, at least to fund their coin acquisitions. Several dealers have told me that I should do this (become a dealer---I'm already quite good at fantasizing---and I think they're nuts). Most collectors do not see enough coins in hand to develop proficiency in grading and spotting problem coins (particularly ones already slabbed). Vest-pocket dealers better know how to grade, since make the bulk of their money by shrewd buying, and getting raw coins slabbed or slabbed ones upgraded. Every dealer makes mistakes---and has to own them. It takes an 'eye' to avoid being killed by mistakes.
Dealers that I have met all had a long-time interest in numismatics, and many still collect. Very few, however, successfully made a leap from being a collector with average grading skills to a dealer who manages to stay in business for decades. Most dealers that I have talked with told me that they also had mentors.
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
I see this as a situation where nobody appears to have ill-intent. PCGS saw no problem with the coin. Seller saw no problem with the coin. Buyer saw no problem with the coin. Buyer and Seller are both very knowledgeable and this appears to be a arms-length transaction. Nobody was taking advantage of anyone. I personally would have bought the coin back as the seller to avoid the hassle, and not said a word about the situation if I were the buyer. Just an unfortunate set of circumstances.
Maybe focus the energy on doing the detective work to find who puttied the coin (assuming it actually is puttied).
<< <i>Maybe focus the energy on doing the detective work to find who puttied the coin (assuming it actually is puttied). >>
That's an interesting observation. It seems there's often no consequences for the person who did the deed, only for those downstream that have to deal with the piece.
One thought about doctoring is why would it ever stop if there are no consequences?
Send me a coin to submit that you bought on Ebay. You don't think it's doctored. Neither do I. Neither does the TPG. Someone else buys it. They think it's doctored. Who pays?
This is a very special trick question. Let's see what the responses are.
Stay out of this Andy
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
Weeeell.....Send it back to the TPG 10-20 times first (remove it from the slab each time before submitting). This is what it will take to really nail down whether it will grade and at what level.
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
<< <i>Golly, this ol' thread is still getting replies? Shocking!
Boosibri, this ain't the OP's first rodeo, and I am surprised that PerryHall does not remember previous fiascos here and ATS.
TwoSides, I believe that deleting a thread like this erases important background information that would be required reading for someone to deal with the OP. It would be unfair to the next victim.
For those who recommend that Illini return 100% to the OP, any dealer who offered 100% to other dealers when coins did not work would be in the poor house pretty quickly.
The coin, per the photo, has areas of concern, but I cannot condemn the coin based on the photo. In hand, it might be different.
Now, for the OP's benefit, I will offer two personal tales on how a Big Boy handles the situation, next time it comes up.
Several years ago I purchased the most expensive coin that I had ever purchased from a dealer that I knew very well and liked very much. A couple years later, much to my horror, the coin turned in its holder. I was very disappointed. Could I have gone back to the dealer and asked for my money back? Yes, and he likely would have given my every penny. Instead, I had the coin fixed, it turned out reasonably well, but I was stung by the overall experience, and sold the coin for a substantial loss. Did I come here and cry about it or try to use the forum to leverage a solution to my greater advantage? Of course not. Only a weasel would do something like that.
More recently, I purchased, quasi-sight unseen (read: punitive return policy) a high grade gold coin that I needed for quite some time. I received the coin, and clearly there was some surface issue. I did not need someone else to tell me that. It was in a PCGS holder, and I sent the coin in for appearance review, the coin was fixed, and it looks quite lovely now. It may or may not CAC (I never submitted it, before or after), but the coin looks like it belongs in the holder and solid for the grade. Problem solved. I guess I could have called the dealer out on the forum, and coerced a more advantageous solution for myself, but I have some pride, have a reputation to consider, and want dealers to come to me when they have coins I might want, not run away from me.
One thing that I would never, ever, ever do is use the forum to try to gain a couple hundreds dollars from someone else in a transaction gone awry, especially when I was the one who agreed to the transaction. Very poor form. So there are problems that can be solved without making a public spectacle of oneself.
>>
LOL, now that you've vented your spleen, could you slither back into hibernation?
For me the time period between the coin arriving and being ok versus when return was asked needs to be known. For me CAC would take likely 2 weeks, but for the OP I know it is local.
I know this may sound glib, and it is not my intent to flame anyone, but my understanding is to never buy collectible (read: not bullion) gold without CAC approval. JA is without a doubt THE decider when it comes to gold (read: NOT copper).
<< <i>In a dealer-to-dealer, sight-seen transaction this really doesn't matter. Payment made, coin shipped, coin accepted, done deal. >>
It appears this transaction is a dealer-to-sometimes dealer (but not right now), sometimes collector transaction, if I'm understanding the OP's position correctly from his comments in the thread.
<< <i>Send me a coin to submit that you bought on Ebay. You don't think it's doctored. Neither do I. Neither does the TPG. Someone else buys it. They think it's doctored. Who pays?
This is a very special trick question. Let's see what the responses are. >>
I don't see how anyone else besides the owner of the coin can be expected to pay.
For dealers, once the coin has been accepted and paid for, they own the coin. I would view this as the end of the story for dealers unless the item turns out to be stolen or fake.
If a collector is the end buyer, they own the coin at the end of the return window (an ANA-member dealer is required to offer 15 days to retail customers, but I think eBay allows "Item Not As Described" claims for 45-60 days). After this, primary restitution for the buyer is the TPG guarantee. However, if something has materially changed with the coin (turned bad in the holder or a previously-unknown way of doctoring identified), the dealer may work out some or all of the cost for a known customer. For anonymous bargains purchased on eBay, the buyer should expect to foot the bill for TPG review.
Now, I look forward to being schooled by this very special trick question.
<< <i>I know this may sound glib, and it is not my intent to flame anyone, but my understanding is to never buy collectible (read: not bullion) gold without CAC approval. JA is without a doubt THE decider when it comes to gold (read: NOT copper). >>
For those inexperienced in high-end gold (like me), that is solid advice.
<< <i>I know this may sound glib, and it is not my intent to flame anyone, but my understanding is to never buy collectible (read: not bullion) gold without CAC approval. JA is without a doubt THE decider when it comes to gold (read: NOT copper). >>
What about Doug Winter? I haven't had any interactions with him myself but some very respected collectors, and dealers, have referred to him as a gold expert whose advice is solid. I have sent coins to CAC, bought coins with the sticker, and talked with JA about the coins I had sent in (not a lot, maybe around 80 coins total), and have a lot of respect for him. Just saying there are other experts in certain series (Rick Snow for IHCs would be a strong go-to for me, as an example).
What about Doug Winter? I haven't had any interactions with him myself but some very respected collectors, and dealers, have referred to him as a gold expert whose advice is solid. I have sent coins to CAC, bought coins with the sticker, and talked with JA about the coins I had sent in (not a lot, maybe around 80 coins total), and have a lot of respect for him. Just saying there are other experts in certain series (Rick Snow for IHCs would be a strong go-to for me, as an example).
Some people have a great eye and are comfortable buying raw coins. Others feel better buying PCGS or NGC coins. Other still want CAC on top of the PCGS or NGC slab. If that's what you want and need, then that's what you should buy.
15 pages of thread about a coin that hasn't even been sent back to PCGS yet to conclusively determine whether it even HAS been puttied?
Really?
All you have so far is JA's offhand opinion...which could be mistaken.
If I'm the seller here and sold it to another dealer- especially given the fact that we're not talking a lot of money difference here no matter the outcome...first off I'd think the other dealer is a cheapskate... ... but then, most likely as a courtesy I'd offer to pay the cost to send it in to PCGS to confirm/deny the putty job only, not to fix it.
If they say no putty, I consider the matter closed.
If they say putty and Ankur doesn't want to fix it, my buyback offer stands, otherwise he can keep it. His choice.
If they say putty and he wants to fix it, that's on his nickel; it's his piece, his decision, and part of the cost of doing business as a dealer. And I consider both parties dealers here. You want to play dealer, you handle your business like one... and dealer to dealer trades are as-is except in the case of counterfeits.
If this was a non-dealer customer, I'd just refund from the get go and deal with PCGS myself...
If I'm Ankur in this deal, given the minor difference in the downside I'd have just sent it to PCGS for confirmation and been done with it...and I certainly wouldn't have started a thread airing this out in public before having done so.
Actually I wouldn't have started a thread, period.
15 pages of thread about a coin that hasn't even been sent back to PCGS yet to conclusively determine whether it even HAS been puttied?
Really?
All you have so far is JA's offhand opinion...which could be mistaken.
If I'm the seller here and sold it to another dealer- especially given the fact that we're not talking a lot of money difference here no matter the outcome...first off I'd think the other dealer is a cheapskate... ... but then, most likely as a courtesy I'd offer to pay the cost to send it in to PCGS to confirm/deny the putty job only, not to fix it.
If they say no putty, I consider the matter closed.
If they say putty and Ankur doesn't want to fix it, my buyback offer stands, otherwise he can keep it. His choice.
If they say putty and he wants to fix it, that's on his nickel; it's his piece, his decision, and part of the cost of doing business as a dealer. And I consider both parties dealers here. You want to play dealer, you handle your business like one... and dealer to dealer trades are as-is except in the case of counterfeits.
If this was a non-dealer customer, I'd just refund from the get go and deal with PCGS myself...
If I'm Ankur in this deal, given the minor difference in the downside I'd have just sent it to PCGS for confirmation and been done with it...and I certainly wouldn't have started a thread airing this out in public before having done so.
Actually I wouldn't have started a thread, period. >>
I have seen hundreds of coins in MS65 holders that should be in 66 or perhaps 67 holders and vice-versa, coins in 67 holders that should be in 65 and 66 holders. Bottom line, if you're playing this game with the TPG and you want to send coins here and there to get upgrades or a second opinion, the coin is yours, PERIOD. Such activity with any certified holder is your coin for keeps if and when you engage in such games. To avoid your troubles, buy a holder coin as dirt cheap as possible and send it back to whomever graded it for that second time around opinion. But don't expect the seller to pay for your or the TGS's mistakes. How many times do you send it back in until you are comfortable that it's graded right? Until it comes back one point higher? Both seller and buyer had or has the option to do a review of the coin if they question it?. How are they going to know? Neither are pros in grading. For God's sake, whoever has the coin and if you have doubt, exercise that right, send the blessed thing in and find out. But the coin belongs to whoever accepts the coin and holds it beyond the return policy time frame, it's that simple. Playing this game that the seller should take the hit on every coin that doesn't meet the buyer's aspirations is bullshiit!
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
I'm partially in agreement with posts 19, 134 and 203. I'm marginally in agreement with post 176. And I'm still on the fence about posts 22, 188, 192 and 244. Carry on.
<< <i> All you have so far is JA's offhand opinion...which could be mistaken.
100 % right , a voice of reason to be sure. >>
A CAC sticker means: ◾It has been verified as meeting our strict quality standards. ◾CAC is an active bidder on many CAC coins. In fact, CAC has purchased over $275 million of CAC verified coins.
Since the buyer paid for JA's or CAC's opinion, they chose not to back this coin.
But it is just an opinion. One opinion.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
As a frequent lurker and reading almost 300 posts I would like to add my two cents.
Personaly I think it's a nice for the grade coin, graded by PCGS. And have seen other raw gold coins with that look that were stored in a leather pouch.
The seller offering the 15% fee is very reasonable and doing so knows that he will instantly lose $175-$200 just in melt value alone because of the recent tank in gold.
Which poses a question. If gold had gone up $350-$400 would we be reading almost 300 post? My guess probally not.
Which IMO is the reason for the post in the first place.
If the buyer did not like the coin when received in person, that was the time to make the return.
The buyer stated the coin looked overgraded in hand.
But said he liked the look and would be keeping it.
So in my mind at this point I consider it a hand shake done deal.
Now not confuse the situation more, but I do have a question.
If you were/are a dealer why are you paying retail on a seemingly common coin with all the dealer contacts that you have?
<< <i>I'm partially in agreement with posts 19, 134 and 203. I'm marginally in agreement with post 176. And I'm still on the fence about posts 22, 188, 192 and 244. Carry on. >>
Hilarious, for some reason.
<< <i>I still hate hairy Chihuahua's! >>
Definitely agree. In fact, chihuahuas in general just freak me out. Those bug-eyes!
I knew a coin dealer's Chihuahua who was carried off by a hawk. Only one of the breed I ever liked. No yelping, no growling, no bared teeth. The pooch was innocent. The coin dealer was not.
But I don't think this coin went through his hands. Not enough upside.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
<< <i>I'm partially in agreement with posts 19, 134 and 203. I'm marginally in agreement with post 176. And I'm still on the fence about posts 22, 188, 192 and 244. Carry on. >>
Upon entering this thread, could you please put a "You are here" arrow, because I think 'm sorta lost right now.
<< <i>The coin in question would never have been a candidate for puttying. The coin clearly has rub, grades nice AU. But putty doesn't restore mint luster. Many gold issues advance 5% or 10% from AU55 to MS60 to MS61 to MS62...and then double or triple going to MS63. Sometimes the big jump is from 63 to 64. In any case, the coin doctor tries to obtain an MS62 coin (or the grade just under the big price jump) that has a full strike, blast luster, but just a few too many hits to bring the higher grade and price. These are the coins where it is extemely profitable to hide or reduce the severity of bagmarks with putty or epoxy to fool the grading services into giving the higher grade.
So back to the 1907 No Motto $10 Indian..It's not a coin that would be puttied to deceive. The coin doctors want to double or triple their money...Trying to fill in some hits on a common coin that could never be Mint State, and only advances $50 from AU50 to AU58...has zero profit potential. So I think the coin MAY have some substance on it ... grease, PVC residue, skin oils, that is may have not been visible when it was encapsulated, but I don't think it's anything PCGS would fix under grade guarantee, nor do I think there is really anything wrong with it based on the 58 grade...
Bottom line, coin was purchased sight-seen in a dealer-to-dealer transaction. Buyer liked the coin...until it failed to get a sticker because JA thought "it might be" puttied based on looking through the plastic, while 3 PCGS graders who examined it before it was slabbed saw nothing., >>
Frank that's some good info, thank you.
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
<< <i>The coin in question would never have been a candidate for puttying. The coin clearly has rub, grades nice AU. But putty doesn't restore mint luster. Many gold issues advance 5% or 10% from AU55 to MS60 to MS61 to MS62...and then double or triple going to MS63. Sometimes the big jump is from 63 to 64. In any case, the coin doctor tries to obtain an MS62 coin (or the grade just under the big price jump) that has a full strike, blast luster, but just a few too many hits to bring the higher grade and price. These are the coins where it is extemely profitable to hide or reduce the severity of bagmarks with putty or epoxy to fool the grading services into giving the higher grade.
So back to the 1907 No Motto $10 Indian..It's not a coin that would be puttied to deceive. The coin doctors want to double or triple their money...Trying to fill in some hits on a common coin that could never be Mint State, and only advances $50 from AU50 to AU58...has zero profit potential. So I think the coin MAY have some substance on it ... grease, PVC residue, skin oils, that is may have not been visible when it was encapsulated, but I don't think it's anything PCGS would fix under grade guarantee, nor do I think there is really anything wrong with it based on the 58 grade...
Bottom line, coin was purchased sight-seen in a dealer-to-dealer transaction. Buyer liked the coin...until it failed to get a sticker because JA thought "it might be" puttied based on looking through the plastic, while 3 PCGS graders who examined it before it was slabbed saw nothing., >>
Frank that's some good info, thank you. >>
That guy sure gives good advice and don't usually charge much for it.....
Comments
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
Hoard the keys.
Hoard the keys.
Please reread this: boldface extended/added
<< <i>Coin in-hand, dealer to dealer. You know what you're looking at, or you do not. The seller may not know. The buyer may not know.
Or maybe it wasn't doctored. CAC's opinion has nothing whatsoever to do with PCGS' guarantee. Nor does mine. Or yours.
If it was counterfeit, who makes it good? Not until PCGS says it's counterfeit. They took a 6-figure hit on a territorial once.
This is dealer to dealer. If PCGS wants to eat the coin, or make a financial adjustment to the buyer, so be it. Whatever the review service, if they still like it, so be it.
No one in this transaction is entitled to the protection of the innocent or unknowing. No one in this transaction has an expectation of being rescued from their own lack of competence, their reliance upon the expertise of another.
All the collectors posting or lurking here can relax. It's enlightened self-interest for your dealer to have your back. Don't project your feelings as a collector, prudently and rightly skeptical, even fearful, about your lack of ability to protect yourself from grief or harm, into a dealer-to-dealer transaction.
You're a pro and you were wrong, got fooled? Happens to world-class experts every day.
Remarkable how many collectors who know bupkis about nitty-gritty wholesale have an opinion. >>
I didn't say you didn't know how to buy or sell cons. I said
<< <i>nitty-gritty wholesale >>
. If you're not a dealer who's worked in the sausage factory, you have not acquired the real-life experience of dealer-to-dealer interactions that would enable you to make judgments in the specific professional subset of coin trading.
My problem is not with what collectors posting here don't know. It's what collectors posting here don't know that they don't know. Denial is a defense against the pain of consciously dealing with aspects of reality with which an individual cannot cope.
Dealers are held to a higher standard by collectors. And by other dealers insofar as to our dealings with collectors. We have an obligation to "have your back". Collectors can rightly, to varying degrees, expect dealers to perform some of their due diligence for them.
Seemingly, at least when convenient, the OP styles himself as a dealer. I've met him. I've seen him interact with other dealers. I classify him, using Laurie's term, as a "wannabe". As in "No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night!
I have respect, patience, concern and solicitude for most collectors. Beginning dealers? I'll help. I'm a pretty decent guy, and it's also enlightened self-interest. Preening wannabe's? Hehehe. What's for lunch?.
Anyone who's read some of my posts may have seen me end a description of one of my own mistakes with
If CRO or MrE or myself (or many other dealers who post here) had any disagreement with each other, would we be wasting your time?
Send it back to PCGS and get over it.
Major red flag for me. Maybe not for others
<< <i>Starting this thread was a Joke, unprofessional , and just stupid. IMHO
Send it back to PCGS and get over it. >>
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Starting this thread was a Joke, unprofessional , and just stupid. IMHO
Send it back to PCGS and get over it. >>
Agree. I think Ankurj did further damage to his already shaky reputation here. And I wouldn't hesitate to do a coin transaction with illini.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
If an outside party (after the completed transfer of the coin) pointed out to the new owner that the coin was puttied, then that is a situation for the owner and the grading company to remedy. It doesn't matter why you purchased the coin (to resell or for your personal collection); all that matters is that you didn't have the knowledge to see the putty on your own.
You (Ankur) completed the transaction, and now you're trying to back-peddle and misplace your ignorance on the person from whom you purchased the coin. It's not as if you're some newbie to the business or hobby. I'd chalk this one up to a "learning experience".
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
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<< <i>
<< <i>Starting this thread was a Joke, unprofessional , and just stupid. IMHO
Send it back to PCGS and get over it. >>
Agree. I think Ankurj did further damage to his already shaky reputation here. And I wouldn't hesitate to do a coin transaction with illini. >>
Dealers that I have met all had a long-time interest in numismatics, and many still collect. Very few, however, successfully made a leap from being a collector with average grading skills to a dealer who manages to stay in business for decades. Most dealers that I have talked with told me that they also had mentors.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Maybe focus the energy on doing the detective work to find who puttied the coin (assuming it actually is puttied).
<< <i>Maybe focus the energy on doing the detective work to find who puttied the coin (assuming it actually is puttied). >>
That's an interesting observation. It seems there's often no consequences for the person who did the deed, only for those downstream that have to deal with the piece.
One thought about doctoring is why would it ever stop if there are no consequences?
This is a very special trick question. Let's see what the responses are.
Stay out of this Andy
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>Starting this thread was a Joke, unprofessional , and just stupid. IMHO
Send it back to PCGS and get over it. >>
POTD
<< <i>Golly, this ol' thread is still getting replies? Shocking!
Boosibri, this ain't the OP's first rodeo, and I am surprised that PerryHall does not remember previous fiascos here and ATS.
TwoSides, I believe that deleting a thread like this erases important background information that would be required reading for someone to deal with the OP. It would be unfair to the next victim.
For those who recommend that Illini return 100% to the OP, any dealer who offered 100% to other dealers when coins did not work would be in the poor house pretty quickly.
The coin, per the photo, has areas of concern, but I cannot condemn the coin based on the photo. In hand, it might be different.
Now, for the OP's benefit, I will offer two personal tales on how a Big Boy handles the situation, next time it comes up.
Several years ago I purchased the most expensive coin that I had ever purchased from a dealer that I knew very well and liked very much. A couple years later, much to my horror, the coin turned in its holder. I was very disappointed. Could I have gone back to the dealer and asked for my money back? Yes, and he likely would have given my every penny. Instead, I had the coin fixed, it turned out reasonably well, but I was stung by the overall experience, and sold the coin for a substantial loss. Did I come here and cry about it or try to use the forum to leverage a solution to my greater advantage? Of course not. Only a weasel would do something like that.
More recently, I purchased, quasi-sight unseen (read: punitive return policy) a high grade gold coin that I needed for quite some time. I received the coin, and clearly there was some surface issue. I did not need someone else to tell me that. It was in a PCGS holder, and I sent the coin in for appearance review, the coin was fixed, and it looks quite lovely now. It may or may not CAC (I never submitted it, before or after), but the coin looks like it belongs in the holder and solid for the grade. Problem solved. I guess I could have called the dealer out on the forum, and coerced a more advantageous solution for myself, but I have some pride, have a reputation to consider, and want dealers to come to me when they have coins I might want, not run away from me.
One thing that I would never, ever, ever do is use the forum to try to gain a couple hundreds dollars from someone else in a transaction gone awry, especially when I was the one who agreed to the transaction. Very poor form.
So there are problems that can be solved without making a public spectacle of oneself.
LOL, now that you've vented your spleen, could you slither back into hibernation?
<< <i>For me the time period between the coin arriving and being ok versus when return was asked needs to be known. >>
In a dealer-to-dealer, sight-seen transaction this really doesn't matter. Payment made, coin shipped, coin accepted, done deal.
Coin Rarities Online
Empty Nest Collection
<< <i>In a dealer-to-dealer, sight-seen transaction this really doesn't matter. Payment made, coin shipped, coin accepted, done deal. >>
It appears this transaction is a dealer-to-sometimes dealer (but not right now), sometimes collector transaction, if I'm understanding the OP's position correctly from his comments in the thread.
<< <i>Send me a coin to submit that you bought on Ebay. You don't think it's doctored. Neither do I. Neither does the TPG. Someone else buys it. They think it's doctored. Who pays?
This is a very special trick question. Let's see what the responses are. >>
I don't see how anyone else besides the owner of the coin can be expected to pay.
For dealers, once the coin has been accepted and paid for, they own the coin. I would view this as the end of the story for dealers unless the item turns out to be stolen or fake.
If a collector is the end buyer, they own the coin at the end of the return window (an ANA-member dealer is required to offer 15 days to retail customers, but I think eBay allows "Item Not As Described" claims for 45-60 days). After this, primary restitution for the buyer is the TPG guarantee. However, if something has materially changed with the coin (turned bad in the holder or a previously-unknown way of doctoring identified), the dealer may work out some or all of the cost for a known customer. For anonymous bargains purchased on eBay, the buyer should expect to foot the bill for TPG review.
Now, I look forward to being schooled by this very special trick question.
<< <i>I know this may sound glib, and it is not my intent to flame anyone, but my understanding is to never buy collectible (read: not bullion) gold without CAC approval. JA is without a doubt THE decider when it comes to gold (read: NOT copper
For those inexperienced in high-end gold (like me), that is solid advice.
<< <i>I know this may sound glib, and it is not my intent to flame anyone, but my understanding is to never buy collectible (read: not bullion) gold without CAC approval. JA is without a doubt THE decider when it comes to gold (read: NOT copper
What about Doug Winter?
I haven't had any interactions with him myself but some very respected collectors, and dealers, have referred to him as a gold expert whose advice is solid.
I have sent coins to CAC, bought coins with the sticker, and talked with JA about the coins I had sent in (not a lot, maybe around 80 coins total), and have a lot of respect for him. Just saying there are other experts in certain series (Rick Snow for IHCs would be a strong go-to for me, as an example).
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
I haven't had any interactions with him myself but some very respected collectors, and dealers, have referred to him as a gold expert whose advice is solid.
I have sent coins to CAC, bought coins with the sticker, and talked with JA about the coins I had sent in (not a lot, maybe around 80 coins total), and have a lot of respect for him. Just saying there are other experts in certain series (Rick Snow for IHCs would be a strong go-to for me, as an example).
Some people have a great eye and are comfortable buying raw coins. Others feel better buying PCGS or NGC coins. Other still want CAC on top of the PCGS or NGC slab. If that's what you want and need, then that's what you should buy.
15 pages of thread about a coin that hasn't even been sent back to PCGS yet to conclusively determine whether it even HAS been puttied?
Really?
All you have so far is JA's offhand opinion...which could be mistaken.
If I'm the seller here and sold it to another dealer- especially given the fact that we're not talking a lot of money difference here no matter the outcome...first off I'd think the other dealer is a cheapskate...
If they say no putty, I consider the matter closed.
If they say putty and Ankur doesn't want to fix it, my buyback offer stands, otherwise he can keep it. His choice.
If they say putty and he wants to fix it, that's on his nickel; it's his piece, his decision, and part of the cost of doing business as a dealer. And I consider both parties dealers here. You want to play dealer, you handle your business like one... and dealer to dealer trades are as-is except in the case of counterfeits.
If this was a non-dealer customer, I'd just refund from the get go and deal with PCGS myself...
If I'm Ankur in this deal, given the minor difference in the downside I'd have just sent it to PCGS for confirmation and been done with it...and I certainly wouldn't have started a thread airing this out in public before having done so.
Actually I wouldn't have started a thread, period.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>This has gotten beyond ridiculous.....
15 pages of thread about a coin that hasn't even been sent back to PCGS yet to conclusively determine whether it even HAS been puttied?
Really?
All you have so far is JA's offhand opinion...which could be mistaken.
If I'm the seller here and sold it to another dealer- especially given the fact that we're not talking a lot of money difference here no matter the outcome...first off I'd think the other dealer is a cheapskate...
If they say no putty, I consider the matter closed.
If they say putty and Ankur doesn't want to fix it, my buyback offer stands, otherwise he can keep it. His choice.
If they say putty and he wants to fix it, that's on his nickel; it's his piece, his decision, and part of the cost of doing business as a dealer. And I consider both parties dealers here. You want to play dealer, you handle your business like one... and dealer to dealer trades are as-is except in the case of counterfeits.
If this was a non-dealer customer, I'd just refund from the get go and deal with PCGS myself...
If I'm Ankur in this deal, given the minor difference in the downside I'd have just sent it to PCGS for confirmation and been done with it...and I certainly wouldn't have started a thread airing this out in public before having done so.
Actually I wouldn't have started a thread, period. >>
100 % right , a voice of reason to be sure.
To avoid your troubles, buy a holder coin as dirt cheap as possible and send it back to whomever graded it for that second time around opinion.
But don't expect the seller to pay for your or the TGS's mistakes. How many times do you send it back in until you are comfortable that it's graded right? Until it comes back one point higher?
Both seller and buyer had or has the option to do a review of the coin if they question it?. How are they going to know? Neither are pros in grading. For God's sake, whoever has the coin and if you have doubt, exercise that right, send the blessed thing in and find out.
But the coin belongs to whoever accepts the coin and holds it beyond the return policy time frame, it's that simple. Playing this game that the seller should take the hit on every coin that doesn't meet the buyer's aspirations is bullshiit!
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
I'm marginally in agreement with post 176.
And I'm still on the fence about posts 22, 188, 192 and 244.
Carry on.
<< <i> All you have so far is JA's offhand opinion...which could be mistaken.
100 % right , a voice of reason to be sure. >>
A CAC sticker means:
◾It has been verified as meeting our strict quality standards.
◾CAC is an active bidder on many CAC coins. In fact, CAC has purchased over $275 million of CAC verified coins.
Since the buyer paid for JA's or CAC's opinion, they chose not to back this coin.
But it is just an opinion. One opinion.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Personaly I think it's a nice for the grade coin, graded by PCGS. And have seen other raw gold coins with that look that were stored
in a leather pouch.
The seller offering the 15% fee is very reasonable and doing so knows that he will instantly lose $175-$200 just in melt value alone
because of the recent tank in gold.
Which poses a question. If gold had gone up $350-$400 would we be reading almost 300 post?
My guess probally not.
Which IMO is the reason for the post in the first place.
If the buyer did not like the coin when received in person, that
was the time to make the return.
The buyer stated the coin looked overgraded in hand.
But said he liked the look and would be keeping it.
So in my mind at this point I consider it a hand shake done deal.
Now not confuse the situation more, but I do have a question.
If you were/are a dealer why are you paying retail on a seemingly common coin with all the dealer contacts that you have?
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>I'm partially in agreement with posts 19, 134 and 203.
I'm marginally in agreement with post 176.
And I'm still on the fence about posts 22, 188, 192 and 244.
Carry on. >>
Hilarious, for some reason.
<< <i>I still hate hairy Chihuahua's! >>
Definitely agree. In fact, chihuahuas in general just freak me out. Those bug-eyes!
Empty Nest Collection
But I don't think this coin went through his hands. Not enough upside.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
<< <i>Just curious if the coin in question is ever going to be sent back to PCGS for evaluation... >>
It will be at Long Beach.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>I'm partially in agreement with posts 19, 134 and 203.
I'm marginally in agreement with post 176.
And I'm still on the fence about posts 22, 188, 192 and 244.
Carry on. >>
Upon entering this thread, could you please put a "You are here" arrow, because I think 'm sorta lost right now.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
Broadstruck, I LOVE that Krusty the Clown sticker
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
<< <i>The coin in question would never have been a candidate for puttying. The coin clearly has rub, grades nice AU. But putty doesn't restore mint luster. Many gold issues advance 5% or 10% from AU55 to MS60 to MS61 to MS62...and then double or triple going to MS63. Sometimes the big jump is from 63 to 64. In any case, the coin doctor tries to obtain an MS62 coin (or the grade just under the big price jump) that has a full strike, blast luster, but just a few too many hits to bring the higher grade and price. These are the coins where it is extemely profitable to hide or reduce the severity of bagmarks with putty or epoxy to fool the grading services into giving the higher grade.
So back to the 1907 No Motto $10 Indian..It's not a coin that would be puttied to deceive. The coin doctors want to double or triple their money...Trying to fill in some hits on a common coin that could never be Mint State, and only advances $50 from AU50 to AU58...has zero profit potential. So I think the coin MAY have some substance on it ... grease, PVC residue, skin oils, that is may have not been visible when it was encapsulated, but I don't think it's anything PCGS would fix under grade guarantee, nor do I think there is really anything wrong with it based on the 58 grade...
Bottom line, coin was purchased sight-seen in a dealer-to-dealer transaction. Buyer liked the coin...until it failed to get a sticker because JA thought "it might be" puttied based
on looking through the plastic, while 3 PCGS graders who examined it before it was slabbed saw nothing., >>
Frank that's some good info, thank you.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
<< <i>
<< <i>The coin in question would never have been a candidate for puttying. The coin clearly has rub, grades nice AU. But putty doesn't restore mint luster. Many gold issues advance 5% or 10% from AU55 to MS60 to MS61 to MS62...and then double or triple going to MS63. Sometimes the big jump is from 63 to 64. In any case, the coin doctor tries to obtain an MS62 coin (or the grade just under the big price jump) that has a full strike, blast luster, but just a few too many hits to bring the higher grade and price. These are the coins where it is extemely profitable to hide or reduce the severity of bagmarks with putty or epoxy to fool the grading services into giving the higher grade.
So back to the 1907 No Motto $10 Indian..It's not a coin that would be puttied to deceive. The coin doctors want to double or triple their money...Trying to fill in some hits on a common coin that could never be Mint State, and only advances $50 from AU50 to AU58...has zero profit potential. So I think the coin MAY have some substance on it ... grease, PVC residue, skin oils, that is may have not been visible when it was encapsulated, but I don't think it's anything PCGS would fix under grade guarantee, nor do I think there is really anything wrong with it based on the 58 grade...
Bottom line, coin was purchased sight-seen in a dealer-to-dealer transaction. Buyer liked the coin...until it failed to get a sticker because JA thought "it might be" puttied based
on looking through the plastic, while 3 PCGS graders who examined it before it was slabbed saw nothing., >>
Frank that's some good info, thank you. >>
That guy sure gives good advice and don't usually charge much for it.....