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Returns on a slabbed coin that turned out to be altered
AnkurJ
Posts: 11,366 ✭✭✭✭
A question for everyone here about a somewhat sticky situation. On May 1st I purchased a pcgs gold coin from a dealer who is a member on these boards for my own collection. This was a type piece I have wanted for my collection, and was NOT for resale. When the coin arrived, I liked the way it look and openly told the dealer I would be keeping it. However recently showing it to an expert, I was told the coin had putty applied to it which gave it a artificially attractive look. I did pay a premium for the look the coin had, and did not realize it was doctored.
I contacted the dealer about buying back the coin minus about 5%. I was told that he is not under an obligation to take it back, but would offer 15% back of what I paid. I thought about sending it to PCGS for their guarantee, but since I paid a premium for the look the coin had, they would most likely not pay the same.
So my question to everyone here is, what would you do in this situation? Chalk it up to tuition? Take the buy back and swallow the loss? Send to PCGS in hopes they can remove the putty?
There are a one thing I will not do in this thread, and ask you the same. I will NOT disclose who the dealer was unless they choose to disclose themselves. Please do not ask who it was.
Also just to be clear, this coin was NOT purchased for resale, but for my collection.
Ankur
I contacted the dealer about buying back the coin minus about 5%. I was told that he is not under an obligation to take it back, but would offer 15% back of what I paid. I thought about sending it to PCGS for their guarantee, but since I paid a premium for the look the coin had, they would most likely not pay the same.
So my question to everyone here is, what would you do in this situation? Chalk it up to tuition? Take the buy back and swallow the loss? Send to PCGS in hopes they can remove the putty?
There are a one thing I will not do in this thread, and ask you the same. I will NOT disclose who the dealer was unless they choose to disclose themselves. Please do not ask who it was.
Also just to be clear, this coin was NOT purchased for resale, but for my collection.
Ankur
All coins kept in bank vaults.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
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RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
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EAC 6024
<< <i>I would send it to PCGS and let them fix it. You being a dealer, what would you do if you were the one that sold the coin? >>
Buy it back, and send it to PCGS myself. I have bought back coins in the past, once due to alteration.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>
<< <i>I would send it to PCGS and let them fix it. You being a dealer, what would you do if you were the one that sold the coin? >>
Buy it back, and send it to PCGS myself. I have bought back coins in the past, once due to alteration. >>
That's a good policy.
IMHO, I mean, if I were the dealer, I'd feel an obligation, for morality/decency, to take back the puttied coin, so as to retain your custom, good relations, and to be a nice guy. I'd also feel a little silly - if I knew enough to charge a premium I'd hope to know enough to see putty. Then again, I'm not a grader and it passed by them, but not by your expert. I'd feel it the right thing to do to take it back. As it was a non-intentional thing, you might or might not offer to pay return shipping if I accepted the return. I can see how it could be said that it is PCGS's problem but I am a small dealer of items also, and this is just what I would do in this situation. I have never had a return in my life but this is how I'd handle it.
Eric
Edited to add proper HTML code stuff.
<< <i>
<< <i>I would send it to PCGS and let them fix it. You being a dealer, what would you do if you were the one that sold the coin? >>
Buy it back, and send it to PCGS myself. I have bought back coins in the past, once due to alteration. >>
Absolutely as it should be and I wouldn't want to do business with someone that doesn't feel like they need to stand behind the product they sell.
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<< <i>
<< <i>I would send it to PCGS and let them fix it. You being a dealer, what would you do if you were the one that sold the coin? >>
Buy it back, and send it to PCGS myself. I have bought back coins in the past, once due to alteration. >>
Perfect answer here, no doubt about it.
EAC 6024
When I bought the coin, I thought it was a beautiful AU58 and when I sold it I felt the same. I would of course taken the coin back for a full refund if Ankur didn't like it upon receipt. But the coin was sent to CAC and it didn't sticker because they felt the coin was doctored in their opinion. On the flip side, if CAC loved it and gold stickered it, I'm sure I wouldn't have been offered a bonus payment
I still like the coin and know I could resell it again, but now that I know it has been rejected by CAC for alleged doctoring, I wouldn't be comfortable selling the coin again without disclosure of that to the next potential buyer. Instead, I would send it in to PCGS under their guarantee and based on what they typically pay out I'd lose another 10-15% on this coin, even if Ankur accepted my 85% buyback offer, plus I know that would take several months.
I thought that was fair as we'd both be sharing the hit on this opinion of CAC, even though I know I'm under no obligation to buy that coin back. And of course, if the PCGS guarantee paid me what we both felt the coin was worth in our deal, I'd gladly make Ankur whole and wouldn't benefit from that. In deciding on the 85% buyback offer, I talked to a few dealers I trust and they said the going rate is typically 75%-90% when a dealer does want the coin back for resale, which isn't exactly the case here.
I have an open mind and am interested in hearing what you all have to say as well.
Mike
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
I have more faith in PCGS doing the right thing than some dealers.
Lance.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>I have nothing to hide, I sold the coin in question to Ankur.
When I bought the coin, I thought it was a beautiful AU58 and when I sold it I felt the same. I would of course taken the coin back for a full refund if Ankur didn't like it upon receipt. But the coin was sent to CAC and it didn't sticker because they felt the coin was doctored in their opinion. On the flip side, if CAC loved it and gold stickered it, I'm sure I wouldn't have been offered a bonus payment
I still like the coin and know I could resell it again, but now that I know it has been rejected by CAC for alleged doctoring, I wouldn't be comfortable selling the coin again without disclosure of that to the next potential buyer. Instead, I would send it in to PCGS under their guarantee and based on what they typically pay out I'd lose another 10-15% on this coin, even if Ankur accepted my 85% buyback offer, plus I know that would take several months.
I thought that was fair as we'd both be sharing the hit on this opinion of CAC, even though I know I'm under no obligation to buy that coin back. And of course, if the PCGS guarantee paid me what we both felt the coin was worth in our deal, I'd gladly make Ankur whole and wouldn't benefit from that. In deciding on the 85% buyback offer, I talked to a few dealers I trust and they said the going rate is typically 75%-90% when a dealer does want the coin back for resale, which isn't exactly the case here.
I have an open mind and am interested in hearing what you all have to say as well.
Mike >>
<< <i>I have nothing to hide, I sold the coin in question to Ankur.
When I bought the coin, I thought it was a beautiful AU58 and when I sold it I felt the same. I would of course taken the coin back for a full refund if Ankur didn't like it upon receipt. But the coin was sent to CAC and it didn't sticker because they felt the coin was doctored in their opinion. On the flip side, if CAC loved it and gold stickered it, I'm sure I wouldn't have been offered a bonus payment
I still like the coin and know I could resell it again, but now that I know it has been rejected by CAC for alleged doctoring, I wouldn't be comfortable selling the coin again without disclosure of that to the next potential buyer. Instead, I would send it in to PCGS under their guarantee and based on what they typically pay out I'd lose another 10-15% on this coin, even if Ankur accepted my 85% buyback offer, plus I know that would take several months.
I thought that was fair as we'd both be sharing the hit on this opinion of CAC, even though I know I'm under no obligation to buy that coin back. And of course, if the PCGS guarantee paid me what we both felt the coin was worth in our deal, I'd gladly make Ankur whole and wouldn't benefit from that. In deciding on the 85% buyback offer, I talked to a few dealers I trust and they said the going rate is typically 75%-90% when a dealer does want the coin back for resale, which isn't exactly the case here.
I have an open mind and am interested in hearing what you all have to say as well.
Mike >>
WOW! Read my reply above! I R Surprised!
<< <i>Putty is not always easy to detect until it starts to turn. From what I was told, it had not turned, so can easily fool even an experienced collector/dealer. >>
It fooled both of us (as well as the previous owner).
I like to think of myself as a fair guy. And maybe it turns out Ankur is the real fair guy here in offering to let me buy it back at around 95% of the selling price. I just can't imagine buying it back a full price though as it would set a precedent that buyers could buy from me, submit the coins to PCGS for regrade/crossover or CAC for approval, and if they don't get a favorable result then I'd have to buy the coin back? That just doesn't seem right either. Again, thank you all for your comments... I'm hopeful that Ankur and I will be able to work this out fairly for us both.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
The way I do things, for ME, if I sold a postcard that had a fake cancel or message and had been washed or something and re-written - I would take it back. "A man live by his rep" - West Indian Archie
Eric
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>Regarding CAC and the coin not passing, as I had said to Mike, if the coin did not pass due to it being overgraded, I would have no problem. But with the reason being doctoring, that is an entirely separate issue. >>
That's worse than being overgraded IMHO!
<< <i>Regarding CAC and the coin not passing, as I had said to Mike, if the coin did not pass due to it being overgraded, I would have no problem. But with the reason being doctoring, that is an entirely separate issue. >>
It's what I keep thinking. Grade opinion is "meaningless" in a like situation - but this is different. I'd want to take it back for the reasons I stated above, I'd also want to look at it again for one thing, to maybe learn.
Eric
<< <i>Do only collectors pay "tuition"? >>
It seems like it's acceptable for collectors to pay "tuition" to dealers in this hobby. It helps them learn to to be more astute later.
Here's how I would have handled it, not that anyone cares since I'm just some guy but...
Once it was discovered the coin had problems then I'd immediately offer to buy it back at full price, I'd even pay shipping. Good press is invaluable and I'd mention that I wouldn't mind a glowing review on the forums for the handling of the situation
You're right. If it CAC'ed with a gold bean you wouldn't have seen any extra cash but that's irrelevant IMO. It didn't just not CAC because it wasn't strong for the grade it was doctored. At least it's correctable doctoring which isn't usually the case. It could have been so much worse.
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<< <i>illini...can you not go back on who you purchased the coin from? That is how things work in this business! >>
I originally bought the coin from a local coin shop which is now out of business, so that isn't an option.
For those of you that have asked me via PM, here's a photo of the coin in question:
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
<< <i>
<< <i>Putty is not always easy to detect until it starts to turn. From what I was told, it had not turned, so can easily fool even an experienced collector/dealer. >>
It fooled both of us (as well as the previous owner).
I like to think of myself as a fair guy. And maybe it turns out Ankur is the real fair guy here in offering to let me buy it back at around 95% of the selling price. I just can't imagine buying it back a full price though as it would set a precedent that buyers could buy from me, submit the coins to PCGS for regrade/crossover or CAC for approval, and if they don't get a favorable result then I'd have to buy the coin back? That just doesn't seem right either. Again, thank you all for your comments... I'm hopeful that Ankur and I will be able to work this out fairly for us both. >>
I would have to agree with Mike here too. Do you have to take every coin back that does not get a sticker? What would happen if the coin in question is ssent to PCGS and they say its good?
EAC 6024
<< <i>
<< <i>Putty is not always easy to detect until it starts to turn. From what I was told, it had not turned, so can easily fool even an experienced collector/dealer. >>
It fooled both of us (as well as the previous owner).
I like to think of myself as a fair guy. And maybe it turns out Ankur is the real fair guy here in offering to let me buy it back at around 95% of the selling price. I just can't imagine buying it back a full price though as it would set a precedent that buyers could buy from me, submit the coins to PCGS for regrade/crossover or CAC for approval, and if they don't get a favorable result then I'd have to buy the coin back? That just doesn't seem right either. Again, thank you all for your comments... I'm hopeful that Ankur and I will be able to work this out fairly for us both. >>
That's a completely different scenario. Comparing apples to oranges.
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<< <i>
<< <i>illini...can you not go back on who you purchased the coin from? That is how things work in this business! >>
I originally bought the coin from a local coin shop which is now out of business, so that isn't an option.
For those of you that have asked me via PM, here's a photo of the coin in question:
If I'm not mistaken...I see the putty running down from the Liberty's eye in that Pic!
<<It seems like it's acceptable for collectors to pay "tuition" to dealers in this hobby. It helps them learn to to be more astute later.>>
And the dealer to the TPG?
No one is infallible but I'd pay for a mistake to keep my rep.
Is that the putty - the S shape on the cheek?
Eric
Lance.
If a coin is whizzed/puttied/rim filled/fake/etc. that's completely different.
In the first scenario you still have a completely original coin in the holder it was purchased in. In the second scenario you have a doctored unoriginal coin which may be incorrectly graded due to the doctoring covering up faults, hairlines, hits, etc.
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EAC 6024
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Putty is not always easy to detect until it starts to turn. From what I was told, it had not turned, so can easily fool even an experienced collector/dealer. >>
It fooled both of us (as well as the previous owner).
I like to think of myself as a fair guy. And maybe it turns out Ankur is the real fair guy here in offering to let me buy it back at around 95% of the selling price. I just can't imagine buying it back a full price though as it would set a precedent that buyers could buy from me, submit the coins to PCGS for regrade/crossover or CAC for approval, and if they don't get a favorable result then I'd have to buy the coin back? That just doesn't seem right either. Again, thank you all for your comments... I'm hopeful that Ankur and I will be able to work this out fairly for us both. >>
I would have to agree with Mike here too. Do you have to take every coin back that does not get a sticker? What would happen if the coin in question is ssent to PCGS and they say its good? >>
Who said I take every coin back that does not sticker? I have about a 65% pass rate with CAC, that does not mean I returned the other 35%. But when a coin is doctored, then yes, I would ask for a buy back.
Amwld: you are correct, that is putty. I mistook it for wear on the cheek.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>Again, What would happen if the coin in question is sent to PCGS and they say its good? >>
Technically, at least three graders at PCGS have already said it's good...
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
<< <i>Again, What would happen if the coin in question is sent to PCGS and they say its good? >>
Then he'd be able to resell it and know it was a solid coin.
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<< <i>Again, What would happen if the coin in question is sent to PCGS and they say its good? >>
After it was pointed out to me, I saw the putty. I would be surprised if PCGS didn't. They passed it before as it probably was not as evident.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
Please take extra large, very high quality pictures of the coin so that we collectors can see the putty and learn from this problem.
Tom
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Do only collectors pay "tuition"? >>
It seems like it's acceptable for collectors to pay "tuition" to dealers in this hobby. It helps them learn to to be more astute later. >>
And the dealer to the TPG? >>
I haven't heard the term associated with dealers and TPGs. Is it used that way?
I'm more familiar with dealers cracking out and resubmitting to get the desired grade which is slightly different.
This. If a dealer sells me a doctored coin and won't make me whole when I inform him of the problem, I would NEVER do business with him again. Period.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
I had a similar situation a few weeks ago with a PCGS-graded coin that had been lacquered. On DW's advice, I sent to PCGS under their new conservation service. It's expensive, but at least they guaranty the grade.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>
<< <i>Again, What would happen if the coin in question is sent to PCGS and they say its good? >>
After it was pointed out to me, I saw the putty. I would be surprised if PCGS didn't. They passed it before as it probably was not as evident. >>
I purchased a $10 Indian probably about a year ago now where the putty had clearly turned in the holder. That one got past three grades too. Putty is tough to spot. PCGS should start giving coins an acetone wash by default. In my instance the seller offered to take it back but I submitted myself because I liked the price regardless.
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<< <i>Again, What would happen if the coin in question is sent to PCGS and they say its good? >>
FWIW they said its good already? JA is no slouch...neither is PCGS. I would just take the coin back. Its the right thing to do. Many offer "for any reason, if you are unhappy" etc. This may have been more than 2 weeks or whatever, but special circumstances ie putty potential call for special responses. And I'd eat the shipping too.
Eric
IMHO the coin in question should look about the same once PCGS dips off the so called putty and is a pretty liquid type date for rapid resale.
It seems that many of you feel a dealer should be on the hook if a certified coin is later said to be "doctored" in the opinion of a fourth-party reviewer. If so, how long does that dealer remain on the hook? A month? A year? Forever? And should the dealer be on the hook even the sale is made to another dealer, regardless of whether it's for that dealer's personal collection or for resale?
This is my first time dealing with a situation like this so I'm trying to figure out what is right, and I don't think it's as clear as saying that if CAC says the coin is doctored that the dealer must always take a return or else they are unethical... though I respect those of you who seem to feel that way.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
<< <i>Whatever you both decide to do...
IMHO the coin in question should look about the same once PCGS dips off the so called putty and is a pretty liquid type date for rapid resale. >>
I would wager it would come back in the 53-55 range if graded correctly.
I would wager it would come back in the 53-55 range if graded correctly.
Not that it's relevant to anything, but I'd wager that it would 58. I figure that if the coin was indeed puttied, it was done in hopes of getting an MS grade, and it didn't work.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
NO ONE thinks that.
<<It seems that many of you feel a dealer should be on the hook if a certified coin is later said to be "doctored" in the opinion of a fourth-party reviewer.>>
No, not technically. IMHO, I would just take it back. It's easier than typing all this for one thing. No precedent would be set - how often =is this going to happen to one dealer.
Best wishes,
Eric
Thanks,
Eric