It seems that many of you feel a dealer should be on the hook if a certified coin is later said to be "doctored" in the opinion of a fourth-party reviewer. If so, how long does that dealer remain on the hook? A month? A year? Forever?
I once bought a coin from a very well known dealer that turned out to have been puttied. It took over a year for this to become evident enough to me, and still longer for me to send it in for spot review. Thankfully, the coin not only cleaned up beautifully, it came back at grade and went from non-CAC to CAC.
At the time, I was pretty irritated with the dealer for having sold me a puttied coin. In retrospect I'm not so sure he was at fault. But as a dealer, selling at retail, he should certainly be financially accountable and willing to accept a return should I have requested one.
<< <i>Does anyone have an opinion if that S shape on the cheek is the putty? No other part of the surface is that color/look, but for the highest bit of the eagles wing/shoulder.
Thanks, Eric >>
I am among those who would really appreciate seeing large, ultra-clear pictures of the coin tilted a couple of different directions in good light.
<< <i>It seems that many of you feel a dealer should be on the hook if a certified coin is later said to be "doctored" in the opinion of a fourth-party reviewer. If so, how long does that dealer remain on the hook? A month? A year? Forever? >>
I've worked for a moderately large corporation that did not have a time limit on when they would take goods back. However, I'm also sure they had a risk management group running the numbers behind the scenes. I'm not sure if all dealers could stay in business with this type of policy so it's hard for me to say. Doing right by your customers is important but so is staying in business.
<< <i>Does anyone have an opinion if that S shape on the cheek is the putty? No other part of the surface is that color/look, but for the highest bit of the eagles wing/shoulder. >>
I see no putty on the coins pic as that S your seeing is typical high point rub wear for the issue.
To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
<< <i>Does anyone have an opinion if that S shape on the cheek is the putty? No other part of the surface is that color/look, but for the highest bit of the eagles wing/shoulder. >>
I see no putty on the coins pic as that S your seeing is typical high point rub wear for the issue. >>
<< <i>Again, What would happen if the coin in question is sent to PCGS and they say its good? >>
FWIW they said its good already? JA is no slouch...neither is PCGS. I would just take the coin back. Its the right thing to do. Many offer "for any reason, if you are unhappy" etc. This may have been more than 2 weeks or whatever, but special circumstances ie putty potential call for special responses. And I'd eat the shipping too.
Eric >>
I have to agree with the consensus. After the thread being brought to my attention, I would not feel happy with keeping the coin and any dealer who won't let me return a problem coin after an industry wide expert opinion states the coin has been doctored. It not coming back with any green or gold sticker and returning it for that reason is ONE thing, but for it to be told that it's a puttied coin and now I the recipient is going to have problems with maybe selling it down the line is just unacceptable.
In fairness to the seller, I am sure he didn't meaningfully sell a puttied coin to the OP. However, he now knows the consensus of what the market thinks of the coin and at this point, for the seller's peace of mind and the buyer's, I would make an exception in this instance. This has happened to me before where I bought puttied gold a long time ago and found out thankfully when I received the coin that it was puttied and the seller took it back right away. Now if I found out it was puttied a few weeks after receiving it, well, I still think it's a grey area, but the buyer should be in the right. That's my 2c on this one.
Edit to Add: I agree also with the seller's response in the sense that how long does the buyer/seller have to make the return if the coin is found to be a problem? A month, year? I think after a certain period of time (return period), it should be out of the seller's hands and into PCGS's for their review. However, I think since its two forum members doing a deal, most of us in good faith would like to see the seller do the right thing and refund the OP full money back or 5% or whatever, but in reality, most of the times, that luxury would not be available outside of a community like ours.
wow tough situation, illini420 is a great guy, hope this gets worked out but honestly this should be PCGS problem and they need to take care of this and handle it.
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Hmmmmm. Tough one. I guess what I'd suggest is to send the coin to PCGS, let them clean it up, see if it still looks good, see if it regrades, see if it stickers....... and see where you stand. At least at that point you don't have a problem coin that nobody wants. There is a possibility that everyone will end up satisfied, so why not at least give it a whirl? That said, three or four trips with postage, grading fees, etc will add up.
I don't think there is an answer that will be perfectly acceptable to the interested parties. There is even more certainly no solution that will appease everyone here who has an opinion to offer. Now that this has risen to the point that the parties are known, it will be mighty hard to come away without hurt feelings, damaged reputations, or even worse. I know what I'd do in each person's position, but that doesn't really matter.
Is it possible to test/evaluate for putty while in the slab? Any chance the party that claims it's putty is mistaken? I would like to think the leading TPG got it right and it's nothing more than a bit a wear that resembles putty. JMO, hope all of this clears peacefully.
The fact that buyer is also a dealer who had the opportunity to view the coin, imo does make a difference here, whether or not it was for resale. I am not saying that there shouldn't be some kind of middle ground found, but I would not put this transaction in the same category as a dealer selling to a collector. If it was me, I would try to work for a solution. What's fair in this case will likely only be decided by the two involved.
I can think of a thread in the not so distant past where a member wanted a refund on some gold that the dealer overgraded, and the consensus was the member acts as a dealer, whether part time or full, and he should know what he/ or she is buying.
The only bad situation I have had sortta like this was a 1796 quarter I sold...actually traded a guy over 10 years ago. It was the rarer variety. It was a nice original coin that had been contemporarly bent and circulated long after. It probably had VG10 details. We did a retail trade in the 6K range. A solid year later the guy comes up to me at a show. Tells me his interests had change and would I buy it back. Ouch..since we traded retail for retail. I was tight on money at the time and told him so. He said he would be willing to trade!
He came to the show the next day with his new what I perceived as a new goldigger wife with baggage and hands me the coin. Whow! You cleaned the crap out of it. When I sold it it had nice original smooth surfaces. He had evidently soaked the coin in dip so long it was pourous. When I told him this he hands me a grading slip from PCI saying it was not genuine.
I told him if the coin was genuine I would gaurantee it. I still had about 3K of the coins I took in trade. We started to work out a deal and then the retail side got in.I gave him the 3K in coins I had taken in trade and told him I thought he had cut the value of the coin in 1/2. All the sudden I was a cheat,a theif, and scammer. I had agreeded to give him 3K in trade...and if the coin was real I would make him whole as I wanted to have the coin authenticated by the experts. They started to raise cain and I simply told them we will let the ANA arbitration board handle this since I was an ANA dealer at the time. They started raising cain and hollering names at me and the show hosts ejected them from the show.
We exchanged contact info and they left with the 3K in coins and me with the 96 quarter. Then the email threats started coming. I spent a chunk having the coin authenticated. It was genuine. And luckily I had a good picture of the coin before I sold it to him. I emailed him the picture and authentication. He could not deny the coin was the same before he messed it up...all the time denying he did anything to it. To make a long story short...I told him he could either send the 3K in coins back to me and I would send him the 96 quarter back,or we were done and I wouldn't give him a penny more. He agreed to keep the 3K in coins.
Now the kicker! I could have made him whole if he had approached me in a civil manor. I told him PCI was not the company to authenticate this coin...although they would have had no problem before he ruined it. I washed my hands of the coin for ethical reasons and blew it out for my cost to another dealer. 6 or 8 months later the coin sold in a heritage auction for $8700 if I remember correctly.
<< <i>I would wager it would come back in the 53-55 range if graded correctly.
Not that it's relevant to anything, but I'd wager that it would 58. I figure that if the coin was indeed puttied, it was done in hopes of getting an MS grade, and it didn't work. >>
If I as a dealer buy a coin (for stock, to keep or to seal into an acrylic toilet seat) and later determine it was puttied, I would not expect any recourse with the seller. Sure, I could try to negotiate something, but I would not expect any special consideration.
<< <i>I would wager it would come back in the 53-55 range if graded correctly.
Not that it's relevant to anything, but I'd wager that it would 58. I figure that if the coin was indeed puttied, it was done in hopes of getting an MS grade, and it didn't work. >>
Depends on what is hiding under the putty! >>
If this is indeed puttied it's just a thin coat not caked on like Tammy Faye Bakker make-up.
To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
<< <i>I would wager it would come back in the 53-55 range if graded correctly.
Not that it's relevant to anything, but I'd wager that it would 58. I figure that if the coin was indeed puttied, it was done in hopes of getting an MS grade, and it didn't work. >>
Depends on what is hiding under the putty! >>
If this is indeed puttied it's just a thin coat not caked on like Tammy Faye Bakker make-up. >>
You could be surprised! I was giving grading opinions at a show years ago. The guy showed me his coins and I told him they had wax on them! The arrogant SOB took a coin out of the group....and proceeded to improve on his work! I laughed at him!
PCGS should send Ankur a postpaid box and re-eval the coin. It would make no sense that he has to pay for a mistake they made. Then PCGS needs to determine if CAC is right that its been puttied and if it has, they should buy the coin back.
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if the dealer you bought it from is the one whom submitted it to the TPG and got it holdered, i would hold his feet to the fire, if not, i would have to feel the responsible party is the TPG. had the coin been counterfeit would it be the dealers fault that it slipped through the TPG ? my thinking may be off but the dealer is selling the coin based on the reputation of the TPG, if the TPG missed the putty, shouldnt the TPG be the place to begin the return process ? the dealer is selling the coin as guaranteed by the TPG. he isnt slabbing the coin
regardless of how many posts I have, I don't consider myself an "expert" at anything
I'd love to see a pic with the putty gone. My guess it was puttied to hide hits on her face, sort of like blemish cream a teenage girl uses. But, it sure looks like a hammer strike and I don't think acetone would change the color any.
In this case, it can't be too much of a financial hit on a AU common date bullionish coin?
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<< <i>Regarding CAC and the coin not passing, as I had said to Mike, if the coin did not pass due to it being overgraded, I would have no problem. But with the reason being doctoring, that is an entirely separate issue. >>
This is the crux of the issue here, imo. If a coin is overgraded but original, that is on the buyer, but if a coin is altered, to me, that is on the seller unless said seller discloses the doctoring in his/her description. Especially in this case as the buyer paid a premium for the grade according to him for eye appeal.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
IMO, Dealer buy back at 100% because of the doctoring, leason learned! and now let PCGS review the coin and determin what is right or wrong. price guide has it at $1130.00, I guess your premium was made the price higher. But a CAC sticker has nothing to do with it, IF it is putty then thats doctored, and a dealer should know how to tell a doctored coin, at least PCGS should! AU-58 slabbed coin but you would think it was a good coin and no closer inspection is needed.
I would put everything on hold (both agree to this) send the coin into PCGS and let them have a look see. Provide tracking information to the seller and any correspondence from PCGS and then go from there with a rational decision. Until you have a definitive answer by the encapsulation company, it's only one opinion that the coin was altered. Let the company who certified the coin make it a consensus.
<< <i>Experienced buyer, had the opportunity to see the coin in hand, and accepted it. Nothing more to talk about. >>
The buyer has been called out on these boards previously as switching roles between dealer and collector whenever he perceives an advantage to be gained by doing so. Illini owes him nothing.
Wrong! He sold a doctored coin, and the ethical solution is to give the buyer a 100% refund. He can then deal with PCGS. If CAC rejected the coin for not being nice enough for the grade or having too many marks, then the buyer should be on the hook. However that appears not to be the case. Take the coin back, send it in, and move on.
This is a tough call, and both persons involved are what I consider well respected members of the community.
At first reading Ankur's post, I would have thought I might try to offer a buy back, however, after getting both sides of the story, unless there was an agreement that coin needed to CAC to complete the deal, I would have not been so eager to buy it back. If this transaction was done out on the bourse, it would be a done deal in most cases. I have to look at the sellers point , that had a jewel come to light in this coin and it CAC gold(just say), I am sure the buyer would have been tickled pink and seller would most likely get no additional benefit.
Tough call, both are great forum members, hope they can work out something!!
<< <i>If I as a dealer buy a coin (for stock, to keep or to seal into an acrylic toilet seat) and later determine it was puttied, I would not expect any recourse with the seller. Sure, I could try to negotiate something, but I would not expect any special consideration. >>
Absolutely agree. The buyer is a dealer. The fact that this specific coin was not intended for resale is not relevant. I may also try to negotiate something, privately, in a similar situation. I would certainly not start a thread about it on the public forum where the seller is a member.
Send the coin in to PCGS. Live with the results. Move on.
A little birdie told me that Ankur was in trouble (again), so I thought I would come and help him out.
As usual, the story has some inaccuracies. First, the title is misleading. The coin is not "altered". That implies a level of doctoring and deception that is not present in this case.
Second, if Ankur wants to buy "big boy" gold coins like Indian $10's in AU, he should learn to identify putty and other surface contaminants. A dealer as smart and experienced as Ankur should not be deceived by a coin that quite obviously from the photo has areas of suspect coloration on both sides of the coin. Perhaps he should look at more coins and even find a mentor that could help him in this regard. Heck, even a dumb collector like me can figure this stuff out.
Third, as a dealer, Ankur should know better than to come onto a public forum and call another dealer out. What dealer in his right mind is going to want to do biz with Ankur after this fiasco?
Fourth, while the CAC opinion is a very informed and important one, it is not the be-all and end-all. If you liked the coin before the opinion and don't like it after just drop it in an auction and, oops!, now that the coin has been publically discussed and critiqued, perhaps we can find some bidder in Lithuania who has not read this thread and would be interested in buying it.
Fifth, is it just my observation or do some folks just naturally get themselves embroiled in more conflicts and brouhahas than others and what does it say about them?
Sixth, while the coin may not be original, it is not offensive, it is market acceptable, and I doubt that PCGS would or should do anything about the situation other than possibly ban Ankur from the forum (again) for violating several of the rules. Of course, the entertainment that he provides with his public gaffes would be a great loss to the community, but perhaps we could hire Krusty the Clown or some such joker to fill the void.
I hope that this post helps Ankur to find piece and resolution to this matter that may have cost him $100 or so but has severely injured his psyche. Illini did nothing wrong, an 85% buy back was more than fair under the circumstances, and at this point that offer should be withdrawn as the coin is not salable via normal channels.
"A dealer as smart and experienced as Ankur should not be deceived by a coin that quite obviously from the photo has areas of suspect coloration on both sides of the coin."
Hi RYK,
would you point these areas out? Thank you. I was bothered by some stuff on the cheek and some of the fields - same on the Rev and the high point of eagle feathers.
If I am reading this situation correctly, this was a sight-seen dealer to dealer transaction of a PCGS certified coin. Case closed---Illini is off the hook.
TomT-1794
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"A question for everyone here about a somewhat sticky situation. On May 1st I purchased a pcgs gold coin from a dealer who is a member on these boards for my own collection. This was a type piece I have wanted for my collection, and was NOT for resale. When the coin arrived, I liked the way it look and openly told the dealer I would be keeping it. However recently showing it to an expert, I was told the coin had putty applied to it which gave it a artificially attractive look. I did pay a premium for the look the coin had, and did not realize it was doctored.
I contacted the dealer about buying back the coin minus about 5%. I was told that he is not under an obligation to take it back, but would offer 15% back of what I paid. I thought about sending it to PCGS for their guarantee, but since I paid a premium for the look the coin had, they would most likely not pay the same.
So my question to everyone here is, what would you do in this situation? Chalk it up to tuition? Take the buy back and swallow the loss? Send to PCGS in hopes they can remove the putty?
There are a one thing I will not do in this thread, and ask you the same. I will NOT disclose who the dealer was unless they choose to disclose themselves. Please do not ask who it was. Also just to be clear, this coin was NOT purchased for resale, but for my collection.
Ankur"
-------
Good day. I'm only addressing the OP since it's HIS thread and HIS coin.
1. YOU bought the coin 2. YOU got another "outside'' expert opinion 3. YOU discovered an issue 4. YOU pay the tuition 5. The person who sold the coin really has no bearing on the coin , or the plastic or the transaction beyond YOUR discovery.
Now if one of us discovered it, do you think WE would do the same thing as you and tell the world ? I hope so. It's easier having the buck stop here than passing it. Also, had I discovered it, I would take the issue to the BIG HOUSE, not the small dealer who , like most of us, can get taken. any buy back is better than NO BUY BACK.
<< <i>A little birdie told me that Ankur was in trouble (again), so I thought I would come and help him out.
As usual, the story has some inaccuracies. First, the title is misleading. The coin is not "altered". That implies a level of doctoring and deception that is not present in this case.
Second, if Ankur wants to buy "big boy" gold coins like Indian $10's in AU, he should learn to identify putty and other surface contaminants. A dealer as smart and experienced as Ankur should not be deceived by a coin that quite obviously from the photo has areas of suspect coloration on both sides of the coin. Perhaps he should look at more coins and even find a mentor that could help him in this regard. Heck, even a dumb collector like me can figure this stuff out.
Third, as a dealer, Ankur should know better than to come onto a public forum and call another dealer out. What dealer in his right mind is going to want to do biz with Ankur after this fiasco?
Fourth, while the CAC opinion is a very informed and important one, it is not the be-all and end-all. If you liked the coin before the opinion and don't like it after just drop it in an auction and, oops!, now that the coin has been publically discussed and critiqued, perhaps we can find some bidder in Lithuania who has not read this thread and would be interested in buying it.
Fifth, is it just my observation or do some folks just naturally get themselves embroiled in more conflicts and brouhahas than others and what does it say about them?
Sixth, while the coin may not be original, it is not offensive, it is market acceptable, and I doubt that PCGS would or should do anything about the situation other than possibly ban Ankur from the forum (again) for violating several of the rules. Of course, the entertainment that he provides with his public gaffes would be a great loss to the community, but perhaps we could hire Krusty the Clown or some such joker to fill the void.
I hope that this post helps Ankur to find piece and resolution to this matter that may have cost him $100 or so but has severely injured his psyche. Illini did nothing wrong, an 85% buy back was more than fair under the circumstances, and at this point that offer should be withdrawn as the coin is not salable via normal channels.
Back to hibernation.... >>
RYK, since you came out of hibernation, I felt it was fair to respond to your post. There is no trouble here, only you seem to feel that way (what a surprise). Mike and I spoke privately before me posting here. In fact he said he will decide what to do based on how other members here feel.
First: alteration Is anything applied or removed from a coin to make it more appealing. That was done in this case. Second: Maybe what is obvious to you is not to others, as has been pointed out on these boards. So please do enlighten us on the areas which were obviously puttied in your opinion. Third: As previously stated, Mike and I spoke before I posted this, and he had no problem with me posting about it here. Fourth: I would not sell this coin at this point without disclosing what I know. Frankly it is not the right thing to do, and I would not feel right doing it. Fifth: Feel free to say what you want about me, it does not effect me one iota. Sixth: Thank you for your ever so insightful post, and please let me know which rules I have violated.
Ankur
All coins kept in bank vaults. PCGS Registries Box of 20 SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>Depends on what is hiding under the putty! >>
If this is indeed puttied it's just a thin coat not caked on like Tammy Faye Bakker make-up. >>
Finally someone, in addition to the OP, notes that altered surfaces classification can have numerous substances/processes at the root of the of the problem.
Puttying first came upon the scene in 1983. Actual "Bondo" putty was used. To call a coin "puttied" today is like using the term "xeroxed" for any paper copy.
There are many many different compounds that may be used to alter a coin's services. Depends on the type of metal, texture, reflectivity, location and nature of the problem.
Probably being overly picky on this. Technically correct. A few will try to learn more.
I have seen coins with altered surfaces that have passed CAC, which means they've also passed a TPG. I have bought coins with altered surfaces and been fooled. I have taken off the altering substance and been gratified, but much more often disappointed.
Everyone pays tuition, including the TPGs.
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So the whole argument is over $110? What is the point of this thread? I think you were hoping for an upgrade to MS62 (PCGS price guide $2000). You lost. Thank you. Come again.
Submitting to PCGS will get you nothing after s/h fees. Any "premium" you paid is not covered by their warranty. So maybe they soak it in acetone and downgrade to AU55 (PCGS price guide $1100).
My question is, why did you think this coin was worth an upgrade?
After a transaction, you discovered the items was (probably) altered to commit fraud. To present it as something better then it really was. (I assume that is the "intent" of the putty.)
The transaction should be simply cancelled. Seller gets his coin back, buyer get's 100% of his money back.
Both parties are back where they were before the transaction.
Any "loss" the buyer may incur seems to be from the original purchase of this coin, not the resale of it.
Putty is not always easy to detect until it starts to turn. From what I was told, it had not turned, so can easily fool even an experienced collector/dealer. Didn't fool CAC just you. Take the 85% and realize if you play you pay. I agree with the seller buyer wouldn't have offer more If it had gold sticker we would have just seen a chest thumping post on how he "made" a gold sticker.
<< <i>PCGS price guide says AU58 is $1130, AU50 $1020?
So the whole argument is over $110? What is the point of this thread? I think you were hoping for an upgrade to MS62 (PCGS price guide $2000). You lost. Thank you. Come again.
Submitting to PCGS will get you nothing after s/h fees. Any "premium" you paid is not covered by their warranty. So maybe they soak it in acetone and downgrade to AU55 (PCGS price guide $1100).
My question is, why did you think this coin was worth an upgrade? >>
I never felt it would upgrade. In fact I felt it was overgraded.
All coins kept in bank vaults. PCGS Registries Box of 20 SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
15% haircut is fair. PCGS, the seller and the buyer all looked at the coin and didn't see putty.
The buyer liked the coin so much he sent it to CAC. CAC saw putty. Now, everybody sees putty.
The buyer hoped to score with CAC approval on an AU 58 coin. We don't know how much the buyer paid for the coin.
The buyer and seller have over 17,000 comments on this forum. They made a deal. Seller is making a fair offer.
I would have paid $1000 for this coin. With a green CAC sticker maybe it is worth $1150. Minus 15% it is now valued at $850. If I was the buyer I would think hard about taking or declining $850. I'd probably take it and move on.
these are the types of threads that keep me on this board, a dealer buys a slabbed coin from another dealer, he pays a premium for a coin's eye appeal, then later learns that the coin may be altered, before dealer #1 even bothers to substantiate the claim of it being altered, he is expecting dealer #2 to buy the coin back. so we have a coin in a PCGS holder that may be altered ... which would mean that it slipped by TWO dealers and PCGS and still may not be altered at all. everyone is willing to take the bet so long as someone else takes the risk. throughout every "heated" discussion ive had on here, one quote rings true. "when the chips are down people show you who they really are"
regardless of how many posts I have, I don't consider myself an "expert" at anything
<< <i>I never felt it would upgrade. In fact I felt it was overgraded. >>
So why send it to CAC? >>
1. To make sure it was not doctored 2. Consistency with the of my collection >>
The story doesn't add up. Why buy the coin in the first place? Sounds like a relatively common coin. An overgraded coin won't sticker. Sending it for a sticker makes zero sense, if that was the grading opinion. Third, earlier in the story, the op says a premium price was paid. What? This is where the train wreck occurs. A dealer buys an overgraded common coin at a premium price? A coin without a sticker. What? Again, the story doesn't add up. Adding this bit about thinking the coin was overgraded now makes the op look like a fool or a liar to me.
The bottom line: dealer to dealer transaction. Coin was inspected in person by the buying dealer and looked okay. Done deal. Yes, it would be different if the buyer were a collector, especially an inexperienced collector, but the op is a dealer and needs to start wearing those shoes, and stop pretending to be a collector when it is convenient.
Comments
I once bought a coin from a very well known dealer that turned out to have been puttied. It took over a year for this to become evident enough to me, and still longer for me to send it in for spot review. Thankfully, the coin not only cleaned up beautifully, it came back at grade and went from non-CAC to CAC.
At the time, I was pretty irritated with the dealer for having sold me a puttied coin. In retrospect I'm not so sure he was at fault. But as a dealer, selling at retail, he should certainly be financially accountable and willing to accept a return should I have requested one.
<< <i>Does anyone have an opinion if that S shape on the cheek is the putty? No other part of the surface is that color/look, but for the highest bit of the eagles wing/shoulder.
Thanks,
Eric >>
I am among those who would really appreciate seeing large, ultra-clear pictures of the coin tilted a couple of different directions in good light.
It's tough to tell much from a Glamour Shot.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>It seems that many of you feel a dealer should be on the hook if a certified coin is later said to be "doctored" in the opinion of a fourth-party reviewer. If so, how long does that dealer remain on the hook? A month? A year? Forever? >>
I've worked for a moderately large corporation that did not have a time limit on when they would take goods back. However, I'm also sure they had a risk management group running the numbers behind the scenes. I'm not sure if all dealers could stay in business with this type of policy so it's hard for me to say. Doing right by your customers is important but so is staying in business.
<< <i>Does anyone have an opinion if that S shape on the cheek is the putty? No other part of the surface is that color/look, but for the highest bit of the eagles wing/shoulder. >>
I see no putty on the coins pic as that S your seeing is typical high point rub wear for the issue.
<< <i>
<< <i>Does anyone have an opinion if that S shape on the cheek is the putty? No other part of the surface is that color/look, but for the highest bit of the eagles wing/shoulder. >>
I see no putty on the coins pic as that S your seeing is typical high point rub wear for the issue. >>
Thank you. It is not my series of course.
Eric
I hope EVERYONE has a great Friday night!
<< <i>
<< <i>Again, What would happen if the coin in question is sent to PCGS and they say its good? >>
FWIW they said its good already? JA is no slouch...neither is PCGS. I would just take the coin back. Its the right thing to do. Many offer "for any reason, if you are unhappy" etc. This may have been more than 2 weeks or whatever, but special circumstances ie putty potential call for special responses. And I'd eat the shipping too.
Eric >>
I have to agree with the consensus. After the thread being brought to my attention, I would not feel happy with keeping the coin and any dealer who won't let me return a problem coin after an industry wide expert opinion states the coin has been doctored. It not coming back with any green or gold sticker and returning it for that reason is ONE thing, but for it to be told that it's a puttied coin and now I the recipient is going to have problems with maybe selling it down the line is just unacceptable.
In fairness to the seller, I am sure he didn't meaningfully sell a puttied coin to the OP. However, he now knows the consensus of what the market thinks of the coin and at this point, for the seller's peace of mind and the buyer's, I would make an exception in this instance. This has happened to me before where I bought puttied gold a long time ago and found out thankfully when I received the coin that it was puttied and the seller took it back right away. Now if I found out it was puttied a few weeks after receiving it, well, I still think it's a grey area, but the buyer should be in the right. That's my 2c on this one.
Edit to Add: I agree also with the seller's response in the sense that how long does the buyer/seller have to make the return if the coin is found to be a problem? A month, year? I think after a certain period of time (return period), it should be out of the seller's hands and into PCGS's for their review. However, I think since its two forum members doing a deal, most of us in good faith would like to see the seller do the right thing and refund the OP full money back or 5% or whatever, but in reality, most of the times, that luxury would not be available outside of a community like ours.
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I don't think there is an answer that will be perfectly acceptable to the interested parties. There is even more certainly no solution that will appease everyone here who has an opinion to offer. Now that this has risen to the point that the parties are known, it will be mighty hard to come away without hurt feelings, damaged reputations, or even worse. I know what I'd do in each person's position, but that doesn't really matter.
Looks like rub to me. Then again, the putty would have been placed on and around any visible rub, to try to hide it.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I can think of a thread in the not so distant past where a member wanted a refund on some gold that the dealer overgraded, and the consensus was the member acts as a dealer, whether part time or full, and he should know what he/ or she is buying.
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The only bad situation I have had sortta like this was a 1796 quarter I sold...actually traded a guy over 10 years ago. It was the rarer variety. It was a nice original coin that had been contemporarly bent and circulated long after. It probably had VG10 details. We did a retail trade in the 6K range. A solid year later the guy comes up to me at a show. Tells me his interests had change and would I buy it back. Ouch..since we traded retail for retail. I was tight on money at the time and told him so. He said he would be willing to trade!
He came to the show the next day with his new what I perceived as a new goldigger wife with baggage and hands me the coin. Whow! You cleaned the crap out of it. When I sold it it had nice original smooth surfaces. He had evidently soaked the coin in dip so long it was pourous. When I told him this he hands me a grading slip from PCI saying it was not genuine.
I told him if the coin was genuine I would gaurantee it. I still had about 3K of the coins I took in trade. We started to work out a deal and then the retail side got in.I gave him the 3K in coins I had taken in trade and told him I thought he had cut the value of the coin in 1/2. All the sudden I was a cheat,a theif, and scammer. I had agreeded to give him 3K in trade...and if the coin was real I would make him whole as I wanted to have the coin authenticated by the experts. They started to raise cain and I simply told them we will let the ANA arbitration board handle this since I was an ANA dealer at the time. They started raising cain and hollering names at me and the show hosts ejected them from the show.
We exchanged contact info and they left with the 3K in coins and me with the 96 quarter. Then the email threats started coming. I spent a chunk having the coin authenticated. It was genuine. And luckily I had a good picture of the coin before I sold it to him. I emailed him the picture and authentication. He could not deny the coin was the same before he messed it up...all the time denying he did anything to it. To make a long story short...I told him he could either send the 3K in coins back to me and I would send him the 96 quarter back,or we were done and I wouldn't give him a penny more. He agreed to keep the 3K in coins.
Now the kicker! I could have made him whole if he had approached me in a civil manor. I told him PCI was not the company to authenticate this coin...although they would have had no problem before he ruined it. I washed my hands of the coin for ethical reasons and blew it out for my cost to another dealer. 6 or 8 months later the coin sold in a heritage auction for $8700 if I remember correctly.
Is there a lesson to be learned here?
<< <i>Is that the putty - the S shape on the cheek?
Looks like rub to me. Then again, the putty would have been placed on and around any visible rub, to try to hide it. >>
That is what I was thinking. It has a odd color to me but I don't know gold. Thanks Mr. A
Eric
<< <i>I would wager it would come back in the 53-55 range if graded correctly.
Not that it's relevant to anything, but I'd wager that it would 58. I figure that if the coin was indeed puttied, it was done in hopes of getting an MS grade, and it didn't work. >>
Depends on what is hiding under the putty!
Not really. The coin was never really worth slabbing, much less doctoring, if the target grade was anything short of mint state.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Coin Rarities Online
<< <i>
<< <i>I would wager it would come back in the 53-55 range if graded correctly.
Not that it's relevant to anything, but I'd wager that it would 58. I figure that if the coin was indeed puttied, it was done in hopes of getting an MS grade, and it didn't work. >>
Depends on what is hiding under the putty!
If this is indeed puttied it's just a thin coat not caked on like Tammy Faye Bakker make-up.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I would wager it would come back in the 53-55 range if graded correctly.
Not that it's relevant to anything, but I'd wager that it would 58. I figure that if the coin was indeed puttied, it was done in hopes of getting an MS grade, and it didn't work. >>
Depends on what is hiding under the putty!
If this is indeed puttied it's just a thin coat not caked on like Tammy Faye Bakker make-up. >>
You could be surprised! I was giving grading opinions at a show years ago. The guy showed me his coins and I told him they had wax on them! The arrogant SOB took a coin out of the group....and proceeded to improve on his work! I laughed at him!
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In this case, it can't be too much of a financial hit on a AU common date bullionish coin?
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<< <i>Regarding CAC and the coin not passing, as I had said to Mike, if the coin did not pass due to it being overgraded, I would have no problem. But with the reason being doctoring, that is an entirely separate issue. >>
This is the crux of the issue here, imo. If a coin is overgraded but original, that is on the buyer, but if a coin is altered, to me, that is on the seller unless said seller discloses the doctoring in his/her description. Especially in this case as the buyer paid a premium for the grade according to him for eye appeal.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Dealer buy back at 100% because of the doctoring, leason learned!
and now let PCGS review the coin and determin what is right or wrong.
price guide has it at $1130.00, I guess your premium was made the price higher.
But a CAC sticker has nothing to do with it, IF it is putty then thats doctored,
and a dealer should know how to tell a doctored coin, at least PCGS should! AU-58 slabbed coin
but you would think it was a good coin and no closer inspection is needed.
*
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< <i>Experienced buyer, had the opportunity to see the coin in hand, and accepted it. Nothing more to talk about. >>
The buyer has been called out on these boards previously as switching roles between dealer and collector whenever he perceives an advantage to be gained by doing so. Illini owes him nothing.
Wrong! He sold a doctored coin, and the ethical solution is to give the buyer a 100% refund. He can then deal with PCGS. If CAC rejected the coin for not being nice enough for the grade or having too many marks, then the buyer should be on the hook. However that appears not to be the case. Take the coin back, send it in, and move on.
At first reading Ankur's post, I would have thought I might try to offer a buy back, however, after getting both sides of the story, unless there was an agreement that coin needed to CAC to complete the deal, I would have not been so eager to buy it back. If this transaction was done out on the bourse, it would be a done deal in most cases. I have to look at the sellers point , that had a jewel come to light in this coin and it CAC gold(just say), I am sure the buyer would have been tickled pink and seller would most likely get no additional benefit.
Tough call, both are great forum members, hope they can work out something!!
I'll be interested in the resolution
BHNC #203
<< <i>If I as a dealer buy a coin (for stock, to keep or to seal into an acrylic toilet seat) and later determine it was puttied, I would not expect any recourse with the seller. Sure, I could try to negotiate something, but I would not expect any special consideration. >>
Absolutely agree. The buyer is a dealer. The fact that this specific coin was not intended for resale is not relevant. I may also try to negotiate something, privately, in a similar situation. I would certainly not start a thread about it on the public forum where the seller is a member.
Send the coin in to PCGS. Live with the results. Move on.
merse
Eric
As usual, the story has some inaccuracies. First, the title is misleading. The coin is not "altered". That implies a level of doctoring and deception that is not present in this case.
Second, if Ankur wants to buy "big boy" gold coins like Indian $10's in AU, he should learn to identify putty and other surface contaminants. A dealer as smart and experienced as Ankur should not be deceived by a coin that quite obviously from the photo has areas of suspect coloration on both sides of the coin. Perhaps he should look at more coins and even find a mentor that could help him in this regard. Heck, even a dumb collector like me can figure this stuff out.
Third, as a dealer, Ankur should know better than to come onto a public forum and call another dealer out. What dealer in his right mind is going to want to do biz with Ankur after this fiasco?
Fourth, while the CAC opinion is a very informed and important one, it is not the be-all and end-all. If you liked the coin before the opinion and don't like it after just drop it in an auction and, oops!, now that the coin has been publically discussed and critiqued, perhaps we can find some bidder in Lithuania who has not read this thread and would be interested in buying it.
Fifth, is it just my observation or do some folks just naturally get themselves embroiled in more conflicts and brouhahas than others and what does it say about them?
Sixth, while the coin may not be original, it is not offensive, it is market acceptable, and I doubt that PCGS would or should do anything about the situation other than possibly ban Ankur from the forum (again) for violating several of the rules. Of course, the entertainment that he provides with his public gaffes would be a great loss to the community, but perhaps we could hire Krusty the Clown or some such joker to fill the void.
I hope that this post helps Ankur to find piece and resolution to this matter that may have cost him $100 or so but has severely injured his psyche. Illini did nothing wrong, an 85% buy back was more than fair under the circumstances, and at this point that offer should be withdrawn as the coin is not salable via normal channels.
Back to hibernation....
Hi RYK,
would you point these areas out? Thank you. I was bothered by some stuff on the cheek and some of the fields - same on the Rev and the high point of eagle feathers.
Best wishes,
Eric, looking to learn.
Check out some of my 1794 Large Cents on www.coingallery.org
I contacted the dealer about buying back the coin minus about 5%. I was told that he is not under an obligation to take it back, but would offer 15% back of what I paid. I thought about sending it to PCGS for their guarantee, but since I paid a premium for the look the coin had, they would most likely not pay the same.
So my question to everyone here is, what would you do in this situation? Chalk it up to tuition? Take the buy back and swallow the loss? Send to PCGS in hopes they can remove the putty?
There are a one thing I will not do in this thread, and ask you the same. I will NOT disclose who the dealer was unless they choose to disclose themselves. Please do not ask who it was.
Also just to be clear, this coin was NOT purchased for resale, but for my collection.
Ankur"
-------
Good day. I'm only addressing the OP since it's HIS thread and HIS coin.
1. YOU bought the coin
2. YOU got another "outside'' expert opinion
3. YOU discovered an issue
4. YOU pay the tuition
5. The person who sold the coin really has no bearing on the coin , or the plastic or the transaction beyond YOUR discovery.
Now if one of us discovered it, do you think WE would do the same thing as you and tell the world ? I hope so. It's easier having the buck stop here than passing it.
Also, had I discovered it, I would take the issue to the BIG HOUSE, not the small dealer who , like most of us, can get taken. any buy back is better than NO BUY BACK.
Have a lovely rest of the day.
EOM
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>A little birdie told me that Ankur was in trouble (again), so I thought I would come and help him out.
As usual, the story has some inaccuracies. First, the title is misleading. The coin is not "altered". That implies a level of doctoring and deception that is not present in this case.
Second, if Ankur wants to buy "big boy" gold coins like Indian $10's in AU, he should learn to identify putty and other surface contaminants. A dealer as smart and experienced as Ankur should not be deceived by a coin that quite obviously from the photo has areas of suspect coloration on both sides of the coin. Perhaps he should look at more coins and even find a mentor that could help him in this regard. Heck, even a dumb collector like me can figure this stuff out.
Third, as a dealer, Ankur should know better than to come onto a public forum and call another dealer out. What dealer in his right mind is going to want to do biz with Ankur after this fiasco?
Fourth, while the CAC opinion is a very informed and important one, it is not the be-all and end-all. If you liked the coin before the opinion and don't like it after just drop it in an auction and, oops!, now that the coin has been publically discussed and critiqued, perhaps we can find some bidder in Lithuania who has not read this thread and would be interested in buying it.
Fifth, is it just my observation or do some folks just naturally get themselves embroiled in more conflicts and brouhahas than others and what does it say about them?
Sixth, while the coin may not be original, it is not offensive, it is market acceptable, and I doubt that PCGS would or should do anything about the situation other than possibly ban Ankur from the forum (again) for violating several of the rules. Of course, the entertainment that he provides with his public gaffes would be a great loss to the community, but perhaps we could hire Krusty the Clown or some such joker to fill the void.
I hope that this post helps Ankur to find piece and resolution to this matter that may have cost him $100 or so but has severely injured his psyche. Illini did nothing wrong, an 85% buy back was more than fair under the circumstances, and at this point that offer should be withdrawn as the coin is not salable via normal channels.
Back to hibernation.... >>
RYK, since you came out of hibernation, I felt it was fair to respond to your post. There is no trouble here, only you seem to feel that way (what a surprise). Mike and I spoke privately before me posting here. In fact he said he will decide what to do based on how other members here feel.
First: alteration Is anything applied or removed from a coin to make it more appealing. That was done in this case.
Second: Maybe what is obvious to you is not to others, as has been pointed out on these boards. So please do enlighten us on the areas which were obviously puttied in your opinion.
Third: As previously stated, Mike and I spoke before I posted this, and he had no problem with me posting about it here.
Fourth: I would not sell this coin at this point without disclosing what I know. Frankly it is not the right thing to do, and I would not feel right doing it.
Fifth: Feel free to say what you want about me, it does not effect me one iota.
Sixth: Thank you for your ever so insightful post, and please let me know which rules I have violated.
Ankur
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<< <i>
<< <i>Depends on what is hiding under the putty!
If this is indeed puttied it's just a thin coat not caked on like Tammy Faye Bakker make-up. >>
Finally someone, in addition to the OP, notes that altered surfaces classification can have numerous substances/processes at the root of the of the problem.
Puttying first came upon the scene in 1983. Actual "Bondo" putty was used. To call a coin "puttied" today is like using the term "xeroxed" for any paper copy.
There are many many different compounds that may be used to alter a coin's services. Depends on the type of metal, texture, reflectivity, location and nature of the problem.
Probably being overly picky on this. Technically correct. A few will try to learn more.
I have seen coins with altered surfaces that have passed CAC, which means they've also passed a TPG. I have bought coins with altered surfaces and been fooled. I have taken off the altering substance and been gratified, but much more often disappointed.
Everyone pays tuition, including the TPGs.
Do not got to a coin show without a Stinger missile. Or a holster bra. It's not safe out there.
I take it car putty/wax/synthetics/what have you do not show under a black light like in-painting on an oil painting. Would that it would be so easy.
Have a great weekend,
Eric
So the whole argument is over $110? What is the point of this thread? I think you were hoping for an upgrade to MS62 (PCGS price guide $2000). You lost. Thank you. Come again.
Submitting to PCGS will get you nothing after s/h fees. Any "premium" you paid is not covered by their warranty. So maybe they soak it in acetone and downgrade to AU55 (PCGS price guide $1100).
My question is, why did you think this coin was worth an upgrade?
After a transaction, you discovered the items was (probably) altered to commit fraud. To present it as something better then it really was.
(I assume that is the "intent" of the putty.)
The transaction should be simply cancelled. Seller gets his coin back, buyer get's 100% of his money back.
Both parties are back where they were before the transaction.
Any "loss" the buyer may incur seems to be from the original purchase of this coin, not the resale of it.
Didn't fool CAC just you. Take the 85% and realize if you play you pay. I agree with the seller buyer wouldn't have offer more If it had gold sticker we would have just seen a chest thumping post on how he "made" a gold sticker.
<< <i>PCGS price guide says AU58 is $1130, AU50 $1020?
So the whole argument is over $110? What is the point of this thread? I think you were hoping for an upgrade to MS62 (PCGS price guide $2000). You lost. Thank you. Come again.
Submitting to PCGS will get you nothing after s/h fees. Any "premium" you paid is not covered by their warranty. So maybe they soak it in acetone and downgrade to AU55 (PCGS price guide $1100).
My question is, why did you think this coin was worth an upgrade? >>
I never felt it would upgrade. In fact I felt it was overgraded.
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Box of 20
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<< <i>I never felt it would upgrade. In fact I felt it was overgraded. >>
So why send it to CAC?
Coin Rarities Online
The buyer liked the coin so much he sent it to CAC. CAC saw putty. Now, everybody sees putty.
The buyer hoped to score with CAC approval on an AU 58 coin. We don't know how much the buyer
paid for the coin.
The buyer and seller have over 17,000 comments on this forum. They made a deal.
Seller is making a fair offer.
I would have paid $1000 for this coin. With a green CAC sticker maybe it is worth $1150.
Minus 15% it is now valued at $850. If I was the buyer I would think hard about taking or
declining $850. I'd probably take it and move on.
<< <i>
<< <i>I never felt it would upgrade. In fact I felt it was overgraded. >>
So why send it to CAC? >>
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<< <i>
<< <i>I never felt it would upgrade. In fact I felt it was overgraded. >>
So why send it to CAC? >>
1. To make sure it was not doctored
2. Consistency with the of my collection
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SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>but since I paid a premium for the look the coin... >>
and from a later post:
<< <i>I never felt it would upgrade. In fact I felt it was overgraded. >>
This seems odd. Why would you pay a premium for a coin you think is overgraded?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I never felt it would upgrade. In fact I felt it was overgraded. >>
So why send it to CAC? >>
1. To make sure it was not doctored
2. Consistency with the of my collection >>
The story doesn't add up. Why buy the coin in the first place? Sounds like a relatively common coin. An overgraded coin won't sticker. Sending it for a sticker makes zero sense, if that was the grading opinion. Third, earlier in the story, the op says a premium price was paid. What? This is where the train wreck occurs. A dealer buys an overgraded common coin at a premium price? A coin without a sticker. What? Again, the story doesn't add up. Adding this bit about thinking the coin was overgraded now makes the op look like a fool or a liar to me.
The bottom line: dealer to dealer transaction. Coin was inspected in person by the buying dealer and looked okay. Done deal. Yes, it would be different if the buyer were a collector, especially an inexperienced collector, but the op is a dealer and needs to start wearing those shoes, and stop pretending to be a collector when it is convenient.