Options
I personally find this to be somewhat unethical...am I wrong.
JohnnyCache
Posts: 1,918 ✭✭✭✭✭
I suspect this happens all the time but I am curious to hear from other board members as to whether, or not, they feel this practice is unethical.
A 1917 SLQ was sold to an ebay user.
The coin was graded MS60 details Cleaned by anacs.
The buyer cracked out coin and listed it as Gem BU++ FH, his opinion, but there was no mention that it was graded "details - cleaned" by TPG at anacs. or otherwise had any problems.
Leading buyers to think the coin is unblemished IMO.
JC
edited
A 1917 SLQ was sold to an ebay user.
The coin was graded MS60 details Cleaned by anacs.
The buyer cracked out coin and listed it as Gem BU++ FH, his opinion, but there was no mention that it was graded "details - cleaned" by TPG at anacs. or otherwise had any problems.
Leading buyers to think the coin is unblemished IMO.
JC
edited
0
Comments
Was for sale raw
unethical that happens all the time from some sellers in any venue.
There is some room for benefit of the doubt, not knowing of the seller's intent. Maybe he makes a habit of it - his way of profiting from
the crackout game?
Also anyone buying this as an original Gem BU needs to spend more time in 'coin school'. I suspect it will eventually garner low MS money
once the auction has concluded. But if two or more folks really believe this is Gem BU and gotta have it, then the winner will eventually learn
the meaning of caveat emptor the hard way.
"Don't hate the player hate the game"
<< <i>Somewhat unethical, yes - but it could be the buyer felt it was grossly undergraded in the holder it was in, in his opinion.
There is some room for benefit of the doubt, not knowing of the seller's intent. Maybe he makes a habit of it - his way of profiting from
the crackout game?
Also anyone buying this as an original Gem BU needs to spend more time in 'coin school'. I suspect it will eventually garner low MS money
once the auction has concluded. But if two or more folks really believe this is Gem BU and gotta have it, then the winner will eventually learn
the meaning of caveat emptor the hard way. >>
This sums up things nicely.
I purchased a coin in a PCGS holder NO grade altered surface.
broke it out and putting it in a majic sollution on it and sent it back to slab land.
Graded this time MS62.
Hoard the keys.
I hope there are some ethical sellers on there.
FH
I think there is a good chance the coin is not cleaned based on Anacs and those holders.
I busted a dude cracking a whizzed coins, toning them nice, and reselling. Now that is not right, AT ALL!!! (I wonder if it ever ended up in a holder again??!!)
Before:
After:
dip for free
Notice the seller is not even flatting the staples on the 2x2.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Omit "somewhat" and you've hit the bullseye
<< <i>I suspect this happens all the time but I am curious to hear from other board members as to whether, or not, they feel this practice is unethical.
A 1917 SLQ was sold to an ebay user.
The coin was graded MS60 details Cleaned by anacs.
Buyer promptly cracks out coin and lists it as Gem BU++ FH
No mention of the chance it was cleaned or otherwise had a problem.
Basically the seller is leading buyers to think the coin is unblemished IMO.
I know this to be the same coin but you can compare marks on the coins reverse easily to tell it is the same coin.
Sold to current seller as MS60 Details - Cleaned
Now for sale raw
JC >>
You can always keep an eye on his auction, wait for the winner or seller to give feedback for the coin & then contact the winner with the "good news." Good luck
<< <i>Yes there are several threads on here about dealers who make a living doing this over and over. >>
If anyone cares to share who these dealers are, please PM me. I would love to know just for my own protection.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>"Don't hate the player hate the game" >>
This is the attitude that will eventually bring down Western Civilization. Anything goes as long as enough folks are doing it. Lie, cheat, steal, even murder as long as you are with enough folks playing the same "game" and offering protection in numbers.
http://macrocoins.com
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
<< <i>
<< <i>"Don't hate the player hate the game" >>
This is the attitude that will eventually bring down Western Civilization. Anything goes as long as enough folks are doing it. Lie, cheat, steal, even murder as long as you are with enough folks playing the same "game" and offering protection in numbers. >>
Can't agree with you on that one. I'm simply saying that not all coins in problem holders belong there. If you know enough to buy coins in problem holders and either get them into problem free holders where they should have been to begin with then more power to you. They don't always get it right the first time. Sometimes you have to "put another quarter into the machine" Knowledge is power.
This situation is different because he is obviously selling multiple clearly problem coins as problem free.
Lost to me for a while, was how nice that coin really looks!
<< <i>This situation is different because he is obviously selling multiple clearly problem coins as problem free. >>
Perhaps I misread your post as it sounded like you were supporting this seller's unethical behavior.
http://macrocoins.com
I mentioned it was cleaned 4 times in the original listing.
I took a number of photo's in order for people to have the ability to judge the coin themselves as best they could.
I personally feel that not mentioning the coin was graded as "details-cleaned" by TPG is misleading, and I don't operate that way.
JC
edited for clarity.
The reason he is doing what he's doing is because he knows that most people grade using the "ANA/grading service" grading standards, and because of that, he knows that by calling his cleaned, scratched, low grade coin "Gem BU", most people will assume he is referring to the standards used by the ANA and reputable grading services, and he is hoping some novice will come along and pay close to MS-65 money for the coin. Ask yourself if you would want to pay "Gem BU" money for that coin? If not, you shouldn't call it that.
<< <i>Somewhat unethical is like being somewhat pregnant. It's ethical or it's not. >>
Well said!
The seller must be excited.
I wonder if his auction of the raw piece will exceed what he paid for the details slab. Obviously his business model is geared to accomplish selling the raw coin for more. I just have to wonder about the people bidding this stuff up.......
The market for problem slabbed material is primarily people who want to crack out the coins and put in their albums. I feel sorry for the winning bidder who thinks he got a bargain and sends it in for grading.
He forgot to mention that the coin was saved by his grandfather who saved it
through the Depression and passed it on to him.
It was subsequently purchased (at about $80. or so, as I was the underbidder); cracked out, and placed in a wonderfully attractive, larger Capital Plastics holder with a price tag of 6K+.
I wish I could dig up that thread as layers of various thoughts on both sides of the camp presented itself with some remarkable conclusions.
<< <i>
I wonder if his auction of the raw piece will exceed what he paid for the details slab. Obviously his business model is geared to accomplish selling the raw coin for more. I just have to wonder about the people bidding this stuff up....... >>
If the seller cracks out problem coins as sells as problem free, I can't imagine there is not a shill system in place for the bidding.
When the coin was in the holder, it was toned, and it looked to me to be that kind of AT coin doctors put on cleaned coins in an attempt to get them graded. Now that it is a raw coin, it is bright white, which indicated that it has been dipped to remove the AT. It now looks like a "Gem BU" to the novice who thinks that a bright white silver coin with lots of detail qualifies for that grade. Back in the 1960s and early '70s selling this type of material was the basis of the business plan for many dealers, and they ripped off a lot of collectors this way.
This is just one more example of why one should never bid a raw coin offered on eBay for more than a nominal amount. To me bidding on certified coins, even in PCGS or NGC holders, is a risk unless the bids are low for the coin. Bidding raw or buying coins in "Uncle Elmer's Grading Service" slabs is very often financial suicide. You can learn that lesson here, or you can buy this stuff and learn the hard way, sometimes years later when you try to sell what you bought to a knowledgeable person.
About ethics and good vs. bad with coins on eBay ? I'm burned out on caring.
https://acoinshop.com/ —-> https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Purchased a PCGS MS64 $10 Liberty a few years back because it looked like a no brainer MS65. Cracked it out and ended up getting "altered surfaces" from both PCGS and NGC.
Showed the coin to several leading gold dealers I knew and none could tell me what was wrong with the coin other than it looked "too good" to them. I tried selling the coin raw w/o
success as I fully disclosed the problems. Tossed in the towel and consigned it to a major auction figuring that as a raw coin someone might see the potential I did. Guess that made
me a "criminal" trying to pass altered material off without full disclosure of my 2 previous grading attempts. And no doubt if it was left raw, it would have been described as choice unc,
leaving it up to the bidders to decide what it was really worth.
The story had a twist to the ending though. The auction house loved the coin and sent it back in for grading one last time. NGC MS66. I doubled up on a coin I couldn't even give
away for a 25% loss. The coin went MS64, AS, AS, MS66 on 4 grading events. What was the real grade of the coin? Each TPG saw it twice and they were split 50-50 on whether
it was Altered Surfaces or gradeable.
Slabbed
His purchase before "improving"
Cracked
His now CHOICE UNCIRCULATED++ BU MS
Edited to add, just look at the "buck tooth" hit between the 12th and 13th stars
<< <i>Given the nature of both photos it is hard to tell if this coin really has the hairlines polishing that are the marks of cleaning, BUT the other circumstantial evidence supports that fact that it is a "messed with," cleaned coin. The Reeded Edge half dollar shown earlier CLEARLY was a whizzed coin from the photos, but these photos of the Standing Liberty quarter hide that fact if it is a fact. You simply can't tell from either set of photos.
When the coin was in the holder, it was toned, and it looked to me to be that kind of AT coin doctors put on cleaned coins in an attempt to get them graded. Now that it is a raw coin, it is bright white, which indicated that it has been dipped to remove the AT. It now looks like a "Gem BU" to the novice who thinks that a bright white silver coin with lots of detail qualifies for that grade. Back in the 1960s and early '70s selling this type of material was the basis of the business plan for many dealers, and they ripped off a lot of collectors this way.
This is just one more example of why one should never bid a raw coin offered on eBay for more than a nominal amount. To me bidding on certified coins, even in PCGS or NGC holders, is a risk unless the bids are low for the coin. Bidding raw or buying coins in "Uncle Elmer's Grading Service" slabs is very often financial suicide. You can learn that lesson here, or you can buy this stuff and learn the hard way, sometimes years later when you try to sell what you bought to a knowledgeable person. >>
Best wishes,
Eric
To Roadrunner> The wrong intity sent in the coin for grading the first 3 times. Seems those big boys have pull at the TPG's for some reason.
Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
Wait until some of the folks who bought those other cracked out coins start finding out. This seller is soon going to be history.
Yes, there are some here with nothing else to do, and they will hunt them down one by one.
The more I see and learn about the plastic game the more I dislike it. If it's a subjective artform than don't put an objective measurement on it that folks look at, to a large extent, objectively. My thought is that there should be third party authenticators, not third party graders. Just identify that a coin is authentic. From there the market can determine it's value.