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POLL: Re - two or more point upgrades
georgiacop50
Posts: 2,909 ✭✭✭✭
For example when an MS64 coin jumps to MS66...
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My icon IS my coin. It is a gem 1949 FBL Franklin.
You may recall the psychedelic 1961 that I think AuroraBorealis has that went from 64 to 66.
At the bourse I was at last week, I saw a similar trick. A dealer there (who just happens to be a pretty proficient coin doctor) had a 1955 Franklin with unusual bright colors in a PCGS MS64 holder. Suddenly the same coin is in an MS66 Secure holder.
Tom
<< <i>Should not happen.....Cheers, RickO >>
Hoard the keys.
Slight, very slight, few, very few -- these terms are hard to quantify.
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<< <i>I have to wonder how much of a problem is the somewhat loose way PCGS defines differences between various grades.
Slight, very slight, few, very few -- these terms are hard to quantify.
Yes, well, that chart is obviously just put out there so they have something to point to and exclaim, "We have published standards!"
Not only are the adjectives used in the chart vague and subject to interpretation (What is the actual difference between "few" and "very few"?), but more importantly these standards are simply not employed in real-world grading.
Take the MS65 definition: There are scads of MS65 graded coins that do not have an above average strike. Similarly, there are scads of MS65 graded coins with prominent marks in the focal areas.
That's reality.
I like to get upgrades, of course...but I don't worry about it much otherwise.
<< <i>It's more art than science. >>
This. As long as pairs of eyes (and occasionally some brain cells) are used in the grading process, people should expect a distribution with occasional outliers that are +/- 1, 2, even 3 points. And expect to occasionally see coins in slabs that should have not been graded. A much better measure of the grade of a coin will require multiple grading attempts, and who wants to pay for this (and accept the mean grade, rather than the highest one)?
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>My personal best was an old ANACS photo certificate 1807 dime graded f-12 that PCGS graded vf-30. In fairness, this issue comes weakly struck, is hard to grade, and I was more in line with the PCGS grade. >>
My best is my '09s vdb. Back in 1999 I sent it to PCI where it graded VF35. This is when PCI was pretty conservative but, I know now, not very consistent. I sent it to PCGS via a board member and it came back XF45.
My icon IS my coin. It is a gem 1949 FBL Franklin.
To have a FINEST KNOWN graded 64 and then end up a 66 after selling is ....fairly upsetting.
Considering that NOW it is PCGS "valued" at $135,000
Now I did...okay.. since I bought it in '72 for $200.00 and sold it at double the 64 price just cuz the quality was what I.... THOUGHT.... was way up there.
But the only thing that halfway saved my butt was that I swapped it for gold at $400.
But dammit, it still hurts.
<< <i>I went with option 2 because it is the MOST significant disappointment/mistake I ever made in my numismatic pursuits.
To have a FINEST KNOWN graded 64 and then end up a 66 after selling is ....fairly upsetting.
Considering that NOW it is PCGS "valued" at $135,000
Now I did...okay.. since I bought it in '72 for $200.00 and sold it at double the 64 price just cuz the quality was what I.... THOUGHT.... was way up there.
But the only thing that halfway saved my butt was that I swapped it for gold at $400.
But dammit, it still hurts.
Seems to me that if you were happy with the sale price when you sold it, then it only hurts because you are making it hurt.
As already noted, grading is subjective. It could have come back a 63 or even a 62.
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.
Everybody makes mistakes and coin grading is not as precise as people think it is. Therefore if I get upgrade, I'm not upset.
It does bother me however when I see a clearly overgaded coin in a holder. I just shake my head and wish that the services could avoid doing that.
<< <i>
Seems to me that if you were happy with the sale price when you sold it, then it only hurts because you are making it hurt.
As already noted, grading is subjective. It could have come back a 63 or even a 62. >>
Stop saying true things and let me wallow in self pity.
My ...disappointment... was that I ....knew.... what I had and let pure unadulterated hatred for "grading" in general affect my judgment.
Dealers had said they would BUILD an auction AROUND that coin.
BUT..... I sold the damn thing. In a fit of pique. My fault.
But I'm still pissed at trusting some "company" to persuade me that I knew less than they did.
That and that I never trusted "objectivity" as the things I saw in those days did anything BUT instill confidence in "bought and paid for" ....opinions.
So, gimme another sour grape.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
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<< <i>Two point upgrades and downgrades are just a reminder that there's money to be made in this business. >>
That pretty much sums it up! Could not agree more.
<< <i>Two point upgrades and downgrades are just a reminder that there's money to be made in this business. >>
Bingo! It's all just vantage (with the right eyes).
Eric
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 700
If a grading company would regrade their pieces higher I would not be upset about it. As time goes on, they see more and more specimens, and thus get much better acquainted with the entire sample size. After they know more of the sample size, perhaps they'd be capable of a more fair assessment.
Dolan
<< <i>But when money is made off two or more point changes in a grade, that money is sometimes made at someone else's expense. When the previous owner paid for a professional grade of their coin which later turned out to be a couple points off, there's something not right about that either. Sure, grading isn't an exact science, but changes of a few points shouldn't happen. After seeing a PCGS 63 later turn into a PCGS 67, I started to spend a lot more time teaching myself to grade so that I would minimize the chances of being one of those collectors getting the short end of the stick after a dealer scores a few point upgrade... >>
Mike has a point. Just as Andy says that there's money to be made in this business, a two point grading spread indicates that there is money to be lost in this business, as well.
I wouldn't quibble with an upgrade from a VF 35 to an XF 40, or in the case of some Bust $s, from an AU 53 to an AU 55. Nor would I argue a one point grade adjustment up or down on a liner / shot coin, or to reflect that gradings standards have changed over time (a one point grade bump for nice color is also a good example of this). However, once a coin is at an MS 63 level, I don't think a two point upgrade shouldn't happen. From Seated coinage to say, SLQs and Walkers, the difference between an MS 63 and an MS 65 should be obvious. Ditto re an MS 64 and MS 66, and an MS 65 and MS 67.
I think a two point upgrade or downgrade - the latter unless the coin turns in the holder - may create a lack of confidence in some collectors re the consistency of the TPGs.
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"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>Context, context, context!!!
If a grading company would regrade their pieces higher I would not be upset about it. As time goes on, they see more and more specimens, and thus get much better acquainted with the entire sample size. After they know more of the sample size, perhaps they'd be capable of a more fair assessment. >>
I need a paper towel, just spit my Sam Adams all over my I phone.
<< <i> I need a paper towel, just spit my Sam Adams all over my I phone. >>
Obviously, Wooly and I are worlds apart in our views.
I would like nothing better than for my mouthpiece to smell of hops and toasty malt.
I on occasion have sent in PCGS coins back for regrade
(Now called "reconsideration" ). I have about a 50% success
rate. Not any huge upgrades, but 64's to 65's. Non designated
FH 's to designated FH's. you get the picture.
A good friend has set his #1 set in a few times for regrade,
and each time a few more coins get bumped. He's resubmitted
quite a few times and although I have not kept track of which
specific dates were bumped, I know that a few went from 65's
(OGH's) to 66+ or 67's.
I hear the comment "shouldn't happen"... but it does. Grading
being subjective, you're bound to get a few increases when you
submit... and in contrast, you should get a few demotions - but
you won't based on the PCGS guarantee.
Recently I read ( somewhere here ) that they will be downgrading
some submissions if you use "Secure Plus". I can't say that is Gospel
Truth or not... It's something that got stuck in the old grey matter.
So, all things being equal, when you submit for "reconsideration" be
prepared for good and bad news. Guess it all depends which group
service you use ?!
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !
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<< <i>Two point upgrades and downgrades are just a reminder that there's trusting people to be ripped in this business. >>
*fixed
Here is one of my experiences...
I buy coin.
1879-CC Morgan
I think it`s definitely undergraded and send it to the bean place.
It comes back with a green bean. I felt it deserved a gold, but am fine with it in it`s holder since I`m partial to the rattlers.
As I`m still holding the 79-CC with the other 7 or so coins that were sent in, I clumsily drop it on my tile floor less than 5 minutes after unpacking it.
This is my "new" coin now
Well, I`m really kicking myself at this point. Now what do I do?? Do I keep it like it is and risk some unsightly/unattractive crack line toning or send it to PCGS for a new holder
I decide I can`t take the chance to keep it in the rattler as is and send it away. Seeing a nice original coin I went for the Secure Plus Holder for something new.
(SENT AS A REGRADE, NOT REHOLDER)
Here is the result
Just as I thought from the beginning; an undergraded coin.
By two points at that
So yes, it can and does happen...
In my mind a two grade point change is less unsettling when it is change from MS60 to MS62. In MOST cases, this is going to garner a considerably smaller change in value than an MS64 to MS66 jump up.
For example, Lee's 79-CC $ gained around 25%-30% in going from MS60 to MS62. (Don't get me wrong, a thousand dollars is still a thousand dollars! regardless of percent increase!)
But I have a much harder time accepting the superbly colored 1949-D Franklin I recall making the change from 64FBL to 66FBL. That is a change from a $250 coin to a $10,000 coin.
Say coin A is MS-67 and Coin B is MS-65 . The person at the grading company then puts the coins in the wrong holders.
I have a good example that this could happen, I just don't know if is Appropriate to show it here.