As collectors, what can we do to stop coin doctoring?

AnkurJ · January 18, 2013 12:51AM

Other than the obvious bit buy from known doctors, what else can be done?
Every day I see coins online with AT, putty etc.

Is pointing out to a dealer that a coin is doctored bad practice?

Thoughts?
AJ

derryb · January 18, 2013 12:54AM

novice and ebay dealers need to be informed.

mrpotatoheadd · January 18, 2013 1:19AM

<< Is pointing out to a dealer that a coin is doctored bad practice?

Thoughts? >>

Unless your opinion has been solicited, telling someone (dealer or collector) their coin is doctored is likely to met with resistance. Try asking their opinion of the coin with regards to the doctoring you're seeing instead. "Excuse me- this coin looks like it might have been cleaned/AT'd/etc.- what do you think?" might be better received.

CoinZip · January 18, 2013 1:20AM

Education is the key..........

Edited to add: I don't see any problem asking a seller their opinion on the coins surface originality. I personally would not dispute the opinion, rather take it into consideration.
Its also a good idea to find out the dealers guarantee or return policy.

LindeDad · January 18, 2013 1:31AM

All I can see is to just don't support them. Selective buying practices by more of the community is the key IMO. Couple that with education of the new comers to do the same is our aim in most cases I hope.

MrEureka · January 18, 2013 2:09AM

Is pointing out to a dealer that a coin is doctored bad practice?

As a dealer, I want to know if someone is passing on my coin because he thinks it is doctored. After all, I might learn something, or I might have an opportunity to set him straight and make a sale. Of course, I'd be more receptive if the buyer has already proven to me that he's willing to pay a premium price for nice original coins, in which case I would know that our discussions are more than academic or pure sport.

ambro51 · January 18, 2013 2:12AM

Stop buying USED coins. Buy only NEW coins from the local mint of your choice. Duh

renomedphys · January 18, 2013 2:17AM

Stop paying a premium for eye appeal

Baley · January 18, 2013 2:42AM

every day rainbow toned coins are posted online and mostly get ooohs and aaaahs and most of the color looks intentionally applied to me.

what the heck can someone "do" besides offer their opinion when asked? it's all opinion, but expert opinion is based on probability that it's natural, combined with how the coin actually looks, and an evaluation of the "convenience" of the color meaning does it look too good?

and if it's so beautiful, where has it been all these years, where do these new monster morgan common date obverse banded toners come from, surely they aren't still opening new (original) bags and rolls of morgans every week and going, "wow, look at that accidental color!"

more likely people have been putting dipped white coins into albums, rolls, bags, whatever and duplicating the process in a few years in a way that is mostly indistinguishable from original accidental toning, and you can expect that at this moment people are wrapping white coins for storage that you'll see in holders in a few years and go oooh and aaaah.

Same thing with the overstrikes with fake dates, there's nothing to "do" if there's a market demand, except express opinion that more can be made any time so be careful paying for altered surfaces and assorted re-productions because that's the opposite of Original

Everyone says "collect what you like" and a lot of collectors like color, shine, and novelty, and everyone likes Attractive coins so the drive to Improve imperfect or boring coins will never go away, like others have said it's all about education of what's real and what's fake and what's in between, and how to try to tell the difference (you never Know) and you can't force education on anyone, they have to want to learn

Steve27 · January 18, 2013 2:58AM

Stop paying a premium for toned coins (after all, toned coins are damaged coins).

19Lyds · January 18, 2013 3:15AM

Damn. Steve beat me to it!

Whatever!

Elevating Toned Coins as the most desireable of coins for whatever reason, is a fools game. Sure, some will play the "original skin" argument but the sad reality is that ONLY the Doctor knows for sure!

And there are Lots and Lots of Doctors in addition to Doctor Wannabees! (All in the name of edumacation that is!

)

AnkurJ · January 18, 2013 3:16AM

There's a big difference between toning that has occurred from a coin sitting in an album for years and one made in a garage with a blow torch.

Kaelasdad · January 18, 2013 3:23AM

I also agree, please stop buying toned coins, step away, let these coins go for zero premium, I volunteer to take as many NT coins off the market for you guys as i can to keep the clutter away. These horrible, terrible damaged album toned coins need to just be placed in an environment where they will do no further hard to your delicate eyes.

Kaelasdad · January 18, 2013 3:25AM

To me, bad practice is when those who dont know the difference condemn all toned coins. Know what toning is, know what the doctored coins look like, know what is possible in album toned coins and then, make an informed judgement, opinion, or purchase.

Elcontador · January 18, 2013 3:40AM

<< There's a big difference between toning that has occurred from a coin sitting in an album for years and one made in a garage with a blow torch. >>

Yes. However, it's not as cut and dried as that. Whenever there is enough demand for a product, that demand will be filled.

Did you see anywhere near the number of attractively toned Morgans in the 1970s and 1980s as there are available now? I rarely saw any. I have a GSA 1884 CC which has a band of cobalt toning on the reverse near the rim between 12:00 and 2:00, probably due to bag toning, and I've seen quite a few Morgans with light champagne toning during that time, but that's about it. Some people pay huge multiples of sheet for attractively toned Morgans. Practically speaking, the important thing is not whether they are NT or AT, but rather, are they "market acceptable." And I'll go one further. Are they "market acceptable" to you?

Revier, in his book about Bust Dollars, concedes that a good 80% of them no longer have their original skin. People want these coins, and the powers that be made a decision on what is and what is not "market acceptable" with respect to these coins. I looked over more than 100 of them in various grades of AJ before buying one, and only four were "market acceptable" to me.

Peeling this onion further, one has to distinguish between PF coins, which often toned because of the materials in which they were stored at the mint, and business strikes which toned because of the albums in which they were stored. And then, of course, some people decided to create toning on these coins.

A number of years back, Shylock did some excellent posts and provided examples of natural toning on IHCs. This was at the time that neon blue PF IHCs first came available.

To summarize, I don't think we can stop coin doctoring. Ignoring the financial issues which accompany this matter, we don't have a definition of coin doctoring on which we agree. What we can do is not buy coins which we do not think are market acceptable to us. That's it.

Sonorandesertrat · January 18, 2013 3:52AM

"There's a big difference between toning that has occurred from a coin sitting in an album for years and one made in a garage with a blow torch."

True, but how does one tell the difference between the former and accelerated toning (coin in an old album, in a small room with a heater and perhaps a humidifier). About five years ago, I saw a picture of a coin doctor's 'toning room': shelves full of open Wayte Raymond-type albums (as I recall), full of collector coins, cracked open.

TwoSides2aCoin · January 18, 2013 4:03AM

I solicit opinions as well as criticism. The truth sets man free. Tell it like it is.

AnkurJ · January 18, 2013 4:12AM

This doesn't end with ATd coins. What about puttied gold? Copper being smoothed to hide porosity?
This is not just about toned coins.

RedTiger · January 18, 2013 5:09AM

<< There's a big difference between toning that has occurred from a coin sitting in an album for years and one made in a garage with a blow torch. >>

What about the doc that uses a room full of albums to tone hundreds of coins at a time? Is that natural? Is that person a doc? The AT/NT debate is for the most part pointless because of docs that use what most believe are natural processes, but accelerate the rate using environmental factors, and also do hundreds or perhaps even thousands of coins at a time.

Best way is to stop collecting for quality. Buy average generic looking coins and enjoy. If there is no premium for certain looks, the doctoring won't go away, but will be much less. Another thing to do is stop registry collecting. Paying multiples for one or two grade points is a large driver in puttying, lasering and other advanced techniques.

Education? Mostly useful for the blow torch amateur doctoring techniques. There will always be stupid people. Docs, at least the better docs, tend to be very smart people, often with powers of persuasion, so that their best work often becomes a preferred look.

Unknown · January 18, 2013 5:17AM

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johnny9434 · January 18, 2013 5:19AM

<< Stop paying a premium for toned coins (after all, toned coins are damaged coins). >>

yeah stop buying rusty coins

ColonelJessup · January 18, 2013 6:05AM

<< 

Did you see anywhere near the number of attractively toned Morgans in the 1970s and 1980s as there are available now? I rarely saw any. >>

Actually, the Continental Bank's vault properties, sold after it went bad in the earlier 80's to Chicago's Ed Milas, included over 200 bags of silver S$1. The premium over bullion value for the group en masse was very slight. Government just wanted to clean up the deal.

A huge chunk of these were S-mints. Thousands and thousands of these were beautifully toned. Gorgeous and spectacular also were much more available than most here might imagine. Toned coin values were promoted via auctions containing 50 or more toned gems individually and in multi-coin (mostly 3 piece) lots. The hoard was dispersed quietly over about 18 months.

My contact was George Weingart. I never knew the real skinny. I was not really in that world. I laughed along and learned.

OnlyGoldIsMoney · January 18, 2013 6:34AM

<< This doesn't end with ATd coins. What about puttied gold? Copper being smoothed to hide porosity?
This is not just about toned coins. >>

Ankur, glad to see you're back.

I am concerned about puttied gold. It is difficult to detect by the grading companies when first applied but evident to all when coins turn in the holders. Has anyone estimated how much time is necessary for the putty to become evident?

MikeInFL · January 18, 2013 8:54AM

<< 

<< This doesn't end with ATd coins. What about puttied gold? Copper being smoothed to hide porosity?
This is not just about toned coins. >>

Ankur, glad to see you're back.

I am concerned about puttied gold. It is difficult to detect by the grading companies when first applied but evident to all when coins turn in the holders. Has anyone estimated how much time is necessary for the putty to become evident? >>

In my case it took about 15 years for it to become obvious. I would imagine it is dependent on quite a few things however, and I have but one example.

As for the OP's question -- As collectors, what can we do to stop coin doctoring? -- I think the only answer is education, experience and the knowledge gained therein.

crazyhounddog · January 18, 2013 9:21AM

Well, if Ankur would quit buying them it would help a bunch!!....

Just kidding of course. What can we as collectors do? I have no idea.

ebaybuyer · January 19, 2013 1:20AM

telling a dealer "your coin is puttied" will meet with as much resistance as: your "beautifully toned" morgan is AT's so stop buying them. it should be a personal responsibility for each and every collector to WANT to educate themselves of what they are buying... yet few choose to. opting rather to pay someone else for an opinion of what they are buying. and that is sad.

Zoins · January 19, 2013 4:00PM

One way to slow it down is to talk about it openly more. Review websites like Yelp are fairly popular in some areas.

1Mike1 · January 19, 2013 5:30PM

<< Other than the obvious bit buy from known doctors, what else can be done?
Every day I see coins online with AT, putty etc.

Is pointing out to a dealer that a coin is doctored bad practice?

Thoughts?
AJ >>

I would say pointing it out would not be good practice. Perhaps a new forum could be developed by our host for specifically educating each other and discussing the doctoring practices. I don’t collect gold so I don’t have a clue what puttying is or what it looks like or even what the putty substance is made of. Maybe if the doctored coins in question could be shared via photographs we could learn more. I collect Lincolns and have never heard of smoothing the surfaces of copper (I assume you are talking colonials). As far as toning it can be quite controversial and I don’t believe there is a real acceptable approach to explaining why some toning is acceptable and other is not (with the exception of the ghastly looking blow torched Lincolns I’ve seen on eBay). Even though it has been done in the past, and with all due respect to our host, I was disappointed with a thread a while back with the announcement that PCGS would offer a conservation service. As far as I know these preserved coins are not being marked as such. Education is definately key to stopping the doctors from passing the coins on to market.

mkman123 · January 19, 2013 5:37PM

Can someone tell me if coins that had MS70 placed on them, is that called doctoring???

Zoins · January 19, 2013 5:38PM

<< Can someone tell me if coins that had MS70 placed on them, is that called doctoring??? >>

It might depend on the metal of the coin, e.g. silver vs. copper.

STONE · January 19, 2013 7:23PM

Im coming into this conversation late, but...

...stop submitting coins to PCGS will solve one of the problems of coin doctoring!

ricko · January 20, 2013 3:52AM

For me, it is simple. I do not buy tarnished coins....never liked them. Will never understand the attraction. For me, as minted, or honestly crusty through commercial use. Cheers, RickO

pennyannie · January 20, 2013 4:18AM

To many people are willing to cross the line to make a quick buck. You can do what you want but you need to start at point A. People jump in at all levels of hobbies, business and go balls out not knowing anything about what is going on. They buy first and then learn they made the mistake.

So you spend 5k on a doctored coins worth 1500, who is going to just throw it in the trash can? Now the buyer needs to unload the coin for +/- 5k and he....

It would be nice if the coin shows had all sorts of HUGE banners saying "Beware of doctored coins" on every isle and signs that said for free opinions see pcgs at table so and so. The promoters would never go for a idea like this as buyers would be turned off tyhat the hobby is full of crooks.

1Mike1 · January 20, 2013 4:53AM

<< 

<< Other than the obvious bit buy from known doctors, what else can be done?
Every day I see coins online with AT, putty etc.

Is pointing out to a dealer that a coin is doctored bad practice?

Thoughts?
AJ >>

I would say pointing it out would not be good practice. Perhaps a new forum could be developed by our host for specifically educating each other and discussing the doctoring practices. I don’t collect gold so I don’t have a clue what puttying is or what it looks like or even what the putty substance is made of. Maybe if the doctored coins in question could be shared via photographs we could learn more. I collect Lincolns and have never heard of smoothing the surfaces of copper (I assume you are talking colonials). As far as toning it can be quite controversial and I don’t believe there is a real acceptable approach to explaining why some toning is acceptable and other is not (with the exception of the ghastly looking blow torched Lincolns I’ve seen on eBay). Even though it has been done in the past, and with all due respect to our host, I was disappointed with a thread a while back with the announcement that PCGS would offer a conservation service. As far as I know these preserved coins are not being marked as such. Education is definately key to stopping the doctors from passing the coins on to market. >>

After writing this I decided to look for information on doctored coins. I found some well written material on detecting doctored coins and it's located on the host's website.

I recommend reading both Part 1 and part 2

Lucanus · January 20, 2013 5:23AM

Stop buying dipped and AT coins. That would be a good start.

Doug

sniocsu · January 20, 2013 5:46AM

Ok. I see that toning on Morgans, putty on gold, and smoothing of copper has been discussed. What about dug large cents/colonials? Does anyone have any opinions on brushing, etc. that is commonly done to these coins?

pharmer · January 20, 2013 6:25AM

That's right. The easiest first step is to stop dipping. Changing coins with tarnish to coins that look like new is the most blatant and common coin doctoring.

Zoins · January 20, 2013 7:29AM

<< 

<< Other than the obvious bit buy from known doctors, what else can be done?
Every day I see coins online with AT, putty etc.

Is pointing out to a dealer that a coin is doctored bad practice?

Thoughts?
AJ >>

I would say pointing it out would not be good practice. >>

I'm not really sure, short of reviewing dealers on a site like Yelp.

The Omerta, or code of silence, among dealers on doctoring, despite the PNG's Code of Ethics and Definition of Doctoring, is what perpetuates doctoring. There is often asymmetric knowledge between dealers and collectors which is used to take advantage of collectors that may get turned off from the hobby and not come back. The Omerta perpetuates the process.

Collectors can help stop doctoring by naming dealers in venues such as Yelp which are designed to support the consumer by having a place to post the truth. It's done everyday for other areas.

As collectors, what can we do to stop coin doctoring?

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