What happened to this PCGS MS63 $10 Indian? Coin doctoring / putty ?

REALGATOR · July 2, 2012 7:58PM

What would cause the look on this coin? Thanks...

1908-D $10 Ebay

lcoopie · July 2, 2012 9:21PM

nothing good

?putty

PerryHall · July 2, 2012 10:05PM

Yup. It's been puttied, usually to hide hairline scratches. It wasn't visible to the graders at the time it was slabbed but as the putty ages it turns a milky white color. This slab should be returned to PCGS who can usually remove the putty and reslab it. If the grade drops they will make a fair financial adjustment.

Broadstruck · July 2, 2012 10:09PM

Turn! Turn! Turn... Thanks for posting as that one of best examples of putty hazing over for gold newbies to see

golden · July 2, 2012 10:57PM

PerryHall · July 2, 2012 11:12PM

Most putty jobs are more subtle and far less obvious. Some have a blue tint to them. Usually a quick dip in acetone will remove the putty but this should be done by the grading service so you don't lose the grade guarantee.

Twobitcollector · July 2, 2012 11:28PM

How sad

bigjpst · July 2, 2012 11:43PM

I have never seen what putty on a gold coin looks like, but have heard descriptions. When I saw the pictures putty immediately came to mind, but the responses from others with more knowledge made this a good learning experience. Thanks for posting

ColonelJessup · July 3, 2012 12:17AM

Muy funqie.

edited to add: "putty" - a specific substance (Bondo) used when "thumbing" no longer proved to be effective in fooling enough of the people enough of the time. "Putty" has entered the lexicon as a specific term that has become a generic description. If you remember "Xerox" and its trademarking issues (40 years ago) you'll get the point.

I personnally prefer the term "gunk".

Lots of different substances and processes fall under this umbrella-like description. That's OK, but be aware that lots of different effects can result from different substances and various techniques for their application. All "altered surfaces" as currently accepted usage indicates, but by no means the only form of it.

Not meant to confuse, just to not assume that the current example is the only type of result.

PerryHall has the concept, and some of its effects, right on.

grip · July 3, 2012 12:29AM

So the coin turned after being slabed,how long would you say it takes?
Good post.

MsMorrisine · July 3, 2012 12:40AM

yeah... how long does it take for putty to turn?

and it's in a OGH too!

screwed up a coin AND a holder!

Broadstruck · July 3, 2012 12:43AM

<< yeah... how long does it take for putty to turn? >>

Usually many months or years after it was graded...

Another reason to inspect your collection regularly.

Broadstruck · July 3, 2012 12:54AM

<< and it's in a OGH too! >>

Actually most of the puttied gold I've seen has been in OGH's... Yet there's TONS more in ICG holders.

The example REALGATOR in the OP is a heavily application.

As PerryHall mentioned it's removable with a acetone rinse...

And a light coating might have bluish edge tint white cloudy appearance when rotated under a light source prior to the putty turning tan.

Bochiman · July 3, 2012 1:21AM

Wow and yuck!
Thanks for posting as that is a good learning photo to see.

Definitely a coin that should be cracked and off the market. I feel for the current owner if they got taken on it.

Reminds me of a few years back seeing the images of the proof franklins that had had material applied to them that was going bad in the holders over time.

homerunhall · July 3, 2012 1:27AM

Sure looks like a putty job to me.

So we'll check the cert number, find out who submitted the coin...and then I'll explain to the original submitter the wisdom of him buying this coin and cracking it out, if you know what I mean.

Look...coin doctoring is a fact of the marketplace. We continue to work on technological and legal solutions. We fight the battle every day. People put gunk on coins, they look OK for a while, then the gunk turns and the coins look like they were bombed by seagulls. We do have a grading guarantee, but putting putty or other chemicals on coins is not a good deal for the coin market and hurts everyone except the doctors who make a short term profit. And the sad part is that many wonderful coins are being ruined forever. What has been done to Matte proof gold is heartbreaking.

The community should also work on community solutions. This is a problem that effects everyone.

Broadstruck · July 3, 2012 1:39AM

<< Sure looks like a putty job to me.

So we'll check the cert number, find out who submitted the coin...and then I'll explain to the original submitter the wisdom of him buying this coin and cracking it out, if you know what I mean.

Look...coin doctoring is a fact of the marketplace. We continue to work on technological and legal solutions. We fight the battle every day. People put gunk on coins, they look OK for a while, then the gunk turns and the coins look like they were bombed by seagulls. We do have a grading guarantee, but putting putty or other chemicals on coins is not a good deal for the coin market and hurts everyone except the doctors who make a short term profit. And the sad part is that many wonderful coins are being ruined forever. What has been done to Matte proof gold is heartbreaking.

The community should also work on community solutions. This is a problem that effects everyone. >>

I'm loving the chasing down the original putty'r part!

To fight coin doctoring (especially since PCGS is now taking pictures of all coins submitted)...

Could a new clause be added to the submission agreement making it the submitters financial responsibility to reimburse for intentional doctoring unseen at grading

grip · July 3, 2012 2:14AM

NOBODY can beat them all the time.You just keep on plugging along and due
your best.

Broadstruck · July 3, 2012 2:31AM

<< NOBODY can beat them all the time.You just keep on plugging along and due
your best. >>

The only way to beat back is by finding a way of hitting them in the wallet!

lcoopie · July 3, 2012 2:52AM

sounds like it was submitted by a coin physician directly

streg2 · July 3, 2012 3:04AM

How would you know the original submitter was the culprit? If it passed the graders, then couldn't it have fooled the submiter and it was like that when they purchased the coin? Just wondering.

Broadstruck · July 3, 2012 3:17AM

<< How would you know the original submitter was the culprit? If it passed the graders, then couldn't it have fooled the submiter and it was like that when they purchased the coin? Just wondering. >>

It's doubtful that just a single coin was puttied, so if PCGS has had to deal with multiple coins from one submitter... Bingo!

Davideo · July 3, 2012 3:18AM

<< How would you know the original submitter was the culprit? If it passed the graders, then couldn't it have fooled the submiter and it was like that when they purchased the coin? Just wondering. >>

Yeah, unless there was a pattern it would seem difficult to make this conclusion.

Timbuk3 · July 3, 2012 4:02AM

Absolutely terrible !!!

Justlooking · July 3, 2012 4:39AM

That's a real shame.

TomB · July 3, 2012 4:51AM

I like aspects of the stance that HRH has mentioned, but the fact that the coin was certified at least 14-years ago may render tracking the original submitter a moot point.

johnny9434 · July 3, 2012 5:24AM

thats putty sloppy. how sad

REALGATOR · July 3, 2012 5:40AM

Its great to see our host take note and thanks for the feedback. I have never seen a putty job obscure so much of the surface and thought maybe there's another explanation.

Zoins · July 3, 2012 5:59AM

<< Sure looks like a putty job to me.

So we'll check the cert number, find out who submitted the coin...and then I'll explain to the original submitter the wisdom of him buying this coin and cracking it out, if you know what I mean.

Look...coin doctoring is a fact of the marketplace. We continue to work on technological and legal solutions. We fight the battle every day. People put gunk on coins, they look OK for a while, then the gunk turns and the coins look like they were bombed by seagulls. We do have a grading guarantee, but putting putty or other chemicals on coins is not a good deal for the coin market and hurts everyone except the doctors who make a short term profit. And the sad part is that many wonderful coins are being ruined forever. What has been done to Matte proof gold is heartbreaking.

The community should also work on community solutions. This is a problem that effects everyone. >>

This sounds promising. PCGS shouldn't be left holding the bag for things like this since it will provide no disincentive for doctoring to the continuing detriment of the hobby. Doctors need to be held accountable for their actions.

It will be interesting to see if the original submitter is still active in the coin marketplace.

dragon · July 3, 2012 6:40AM

Interesting that this piece is being openly offered for sale by what I assume is a coin dealer who's been on Ebay for nearly 14 yrs, has over 30,000 feedbacks, and currently has over 400 certified coins for sale.

grip · July 3, 2012 7:25AM

and it's a chronic infestation of the hobby.You would have to rat out your friends and
maybe your family.And that would be a good start.

darktone · July 3, 2012 7:38AM

I have seen coins like this at shows in dealer cases and trying to sell them. I honestly think most trusted pcgs's opinion so much they just did not know the coin was doctored. Really sad to these coins treated as widgets and just go by the number on the slab.

braddick · July 3, 2012 7:39AM

Any chance to original submitter had no idea the coin was puttied when he purchased it raw?

Any chance at all?

grip · July 3, 2012 9:10AM

"right before my very eyes"...I don't think so. Meaning i don't believe the original buyer
new,only a guess.

Zoins · July 3, 2012 9:11AM

<< and it's a chronic infestation of the hobby.You would have to rat out your friends and
maybe your family.And that would be a good start. >>

This is why the approach outlined by David is good. It doesn't necessarily 'out' anyone publicly but puts them on notice with a useful suggestion to help the hobby get these slabs off the marketplace.

braddick · July 3, 2012 9:22AM

<< "right before my very eyes"...I don't think so. >>

I missed that part on my first read of this thread. (Caught it now though.)

Ahmanfan · July 3, 2012 9:30AM

This is a total newbie question, but the light area is the puttied part, not the darker area right?

Broadstruck · July 3, 2012 9:33AM

<< This is a total newbie question, but the light area is the puttied part, not the darker area right? >>

Yes it's used on all the key grading areas and to mask abrasions in the fields.

coinkat · July 3, 2012 9:42AM

Just a couple of thoughts

There is no question that this one was submitted around 15 years ago. In that time, I wonder how it was stored and whether the coin was exposed to significant temperature changes, including moisture. Does the putty ultimately become this blatant or is it a product of several other factors that even include the circumstances of how the putty was applied and what other material was involved in the process.

Broadstruck · July 3, 2012 10:03AM

<< Just a couple of thoughts

There is no question that this one was submitted around 15 years ago. In that time, I wonder how it was stored and whether the coin was exposed to significant temperature changes, including moisture. Does the putty ultimately become this blatant or is it a product of several other factors that even include the circumstances of how the putty was applied and what other material was involved in the process. >>

Storage conditions I'm sure have a lot to do with if the tell tale sign of putty show themselves in months or years. Do to the larger diameter of a $10 Eagle there's more surface area needs to be covered so more putty would be used then on a smaller diameter $2 1/2. Large or small diameter, light or heavy application... When putty finally reaches it's fully cured hardness level this cloudy tan coloration is what you'll find on gold.

MidLifeCrisis · July 3, 2012 3:50PM

This is a good, educational thread.

I recommend the OP edit the title to reflect the overall important issue being discussed.

mkman123 · July 3, 2012 5:32PM

PCGS should buy this coin from the seller and destroy it!

PerryHall · July 3, 2012 9:20PM

<< PCGS should buy this coin from the seller and destroy it! >>

Why should they destroy it? The owner should return it to PCGS and PCGS should crack it out, conserve it using acetone to remove the putty and then reslab it at the proper grade. If the grade drops since the putty was originally hiding some hairline scratchs, they will make a financial adjustment to the owner.

Sonorandesertrat · July 4, 2012 12:28AM

<< Interesting that this piece is being openly offered for sale by what I assume is a coin dealer who's been on Ebay for nearly 14 yrs, has over 30,000 feedbacks, and currently has over 400 certified coins for sale. >>

Ebay is commonly used as a venue for the sale of coins that won't sell in face-to-face transactions, so this is not a surprise.

CaptHenway · July 4, 2012 12:48AM

<< Sure looks like a putty job to me.

So we'll check the cert number, find out who submitted the coin...and then I'll explain to the original submitter the wisdom of him buying this coin and cracking it out, if you know what I mean.

Look...coin doctoring is a fact of the marketplace. We continue to work on technological and legal solutions. We fight the battle every day. People put gunk on coins, they look OK for a while, then the gunk turns and the coins look like they were bombed by seagulls. We do have a grading guarantee, but putting putty or other chemicals on coins is not a good deal for the coin market and hurts everyone except the doctors who make a short term profit. And the sad part is that many wonderful coins are being ruined forever. What has been done to Matte proof gold is heartbreaking.

The community should also work on community solutions. This is a problem that effects everyone. >>

An equitable solution, and may I suggest a new numismatic term:
.
"Seagull toning!"
.
TD
.

jmski52 · July 4, 2012 1:35AM

I don't know about puttying coins, but I do know about epoxy. All epoxy resins will react with ultraviolet light over time and become hazy. This is why some of the older car finishes would turn "chalky" after awhile. The resins being used would react with sunlight.

I don't know what kinds of putties are being used, but I recall in a previous thread that epoxy was mentioned. Some epoxies are 1-component, which means that they cure (crosslink) on their own after being activated by uv. Other epoxies are 2-component, but I doubt that they are used in doctoring coins.

If a putty is actually being used to doctor coins, that implies that some type of filler is (clay or silica) incorporated into the resin, but I would think that that type of formulation would be more obvious, even when applied as a thin film.

I've never looked at coins under uv lighting, but I would expect that to be a good way to screen for tampering.

Swampboy · July 4, 2012 2:55AM

<< An equitable solution, and may I suggest a new numismatic term: . "Seagull toning!" >>

I can see it now.

Post your Seagull toned coins.

CaptHenway · July 5, 2012 9:22AM

<< 

<< An equitable solution, and may I suggest a new numismatic term: . "Seagull toning!" >>

I can see it now.

Post your Seagull toned coins. >>

That particular market is dropping..........

DonWillis · July 5, 2012 11:10AM

PCGS should buy this coin from the seller and destroy it!

Believe it or not, the coin is probably very nice. We may downgrade it, or not. All the putty will come off with an acetone wash. Coin doctors applied putty to cover the slightest imperfections. Sometimes they got the higher grade. Sometimes they didn't. I have seen a lot of coins where we have removed the putty and I thought it looked great.

When applied as intended putty is invisible. It turns milky in a few months. The milkiness should be very obvious to any knowledgeable collector or dealer.

Today we have tools to help us detect doctored coins that we didn't have years ago. If you see or suspect a coin to be puttied please let me know. No PCGS dealer should sell an obviously puttied coin.

All this is a good exercise as to why you should be buying only PCGS coins. No matter how many years pass after we authenticate and grade a coin our unlimited guarantee still applies. Don't listen to all the nonsense out there - PCGS buys back any problem coin that we have holdered - no one else.

Where else can you buy a lifetime guarantee on any other product?

ClosedLoop · July 5, 2012 11:22AM

Newbie questions,
1) Can puddy be removed from a coin no matter how old it is?
2) is puddly used only on gold?
Thanks

karpman9 · July 5, 2012 1:05PM

I purchased a very clean and hardly marked 1928 PCGS MS66 Saint a while back. After my purchase, I enjoyed it for a while and then stashed it away for almost a year. During that time my beautiful example of type turned in the holder to what you see below - diagnosis confirmed by Poorguy at the ANA-Phoenix show was putty on the obverse.

I then sent the coin to PCGS for evaluation and after a while, they sent back my coin with the putty removed but with the MS66 grade unchanged. I included a pic of the coin as it was prior to PCGS removing the putty in two views. The next time I go to my SDB, I'll take a photo as it is today for a before and after pic to post.

***PCGS did a nice job (read SERVICE) in removing the putty. But I still can't shake the idea that whatever the doctor tried to cover-up with putty is still there on the surface and therefore, I own someone elses reject. Although who knows, maybe they simply tried a shot at a 67?***

Regardless, I very much appreciate HRH and DWillis from PCGS chiming in and being so upfront/transparent with this very ugly problem.

BTW: I think it was HRH that referenced a serious problem with matted proof gold. Was this a reference to putty on most of the matted proof gold or was it a different issue altogether? If different, what was it that was done to most of them?

Head-on view *with putty*:

Angled view *with putty*:

Zoins · July 5, 2012 1:12PM

@Don: Thanks for the post. It's good to hear how PCGS handles these coins.

@Jeff: Nice photos showing what Don was talking about. Thanks for sharing.

What happened to this PCGS MS63 $10 Indian? Coin doctoring / putty ?

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