@cameonut2011 said: @insider2 - Why don't the services make submitters agree that the TPGS reserves the right to rinse all non-toned, non-copper coins in acetone? It would kill PVC haze (incidental and applied by doctors to cover blemishes), remove organic crud, and remove putty.
Great question! Quick answer: Liability.
Long answer: The history of Conservation Services. I can only answer from my point of view.
When I joined ANACS in the 1970's, there were many coins that came in with gunk around the mintmark. No problem today but in the 1970's coin authentication was in its infancy. Most of the "experts" were measuring coins and taking specific gravity tests. Diagnostic information was virtually none existent. Oops! I already got off track but this would have made a great column.
Short answer: The history of Conservation...
Back to dirty coins. On several occasions, we needed to call the customer for permission to clean his coin so we could authenticate it. In some cases, I just did it, using a microscope of course. There's more but I'll just say that when we ran out of submission forms at ANACS, we added a signature line giving us permission to clean the coin if necessary. (IMO, all services should have this and ICG is doing it on the new printing as it saves time and phone calls.) At every other service after that, I've regularly cleaned coins, as needed for free, with the owner's permission.
When I joined NGC, I gave the owner the same "pitch" I gave to PCI: We should automatically clean (conserve) every coin that was sent in. My father had a "vapor degreaser" at his business that removed EVERYTHING from the surface of sheets of aluminum! I visualized using a commercial degreaser for coins. That's when I learned about the liability factor as NGC was a much larger TPGS than any I had previously worked at.
One good thing came from all this, As a grader, there was a coin with an unattractive copper spot that killed the prospect of a high grade. Mark asked if anyone could remove it. I did and the coin went up two grades. Later that day I was asked to do another. This continued on a small "experimental" scale until about a year later, I left the grading room and NCS was born.
Your post wasn't there when I posted mine...and this thread goes back to July of 2012 ???
I think we both knew that. This discussion was linked to an active one about altered surfaces. Note that I posted in it earlier to keep it on the first page so I could read it and comment - which I did above. Thank you very much. My only question is why did you post at all on this old thread? Most think A/S coins suck, that goes without saying.
Just an added comment... some forms of 'putty' can be detected by UV light... I keep a UV flashlight by my desk. That is not a 100% test, but can help. Cheers, RickO
@Jimnight asked: "My only question is why did you post at all on this old thread?"
Already answered above: This discussion was linked to an active one about altered surfaces. In that discussion, @Paradisefound asked about "putty." A member in that discussion posted a link to this old thread. I resurrected it to the first page for me, her and others to read.
Not everyone here is as knowledgeable as you. There is so much important information to learn that was posted long ago on CU and forgotten. IMHO, this was one of them.
@Insider2 said:
This type of alteration was around in the 1980's and the top two TPGS slabbed tens of thousands of these altered coins while the lowly little INSAB, and PCI where I graded/authenticated at the time were sending them back as altered surfaces.
The lightbulb in me thinks that if the garage slabbers (no offense) knew the racket early on but the pros did not, then they (the garage slabbers) probably had something to do with starting it...the other lightbulb in me thinks you guys shoulda just bought them at melt and sent them all in for “top two” plastic...smoke ‘em if you got ‘em baby, anything goes in the 1980’s
@Insider2 said:
This type of alteration was around in the 1980's and the top two TPGS slabbed tens of thousands of these altered coins while the lowly little INSAB, and PCI where I graded/authenticated at the time were sending them back as altered surfaces.
The lightbulb in me thinks that if the garage slabbers (no offense) knew the racket early on but the pros did not, then they (the garage slabbers) probably had something to do with starting it...the other lightbulb in me thinks you guys shoulda just bought them at melt and sent them all in for “top two” plastic...smoke ‘em if you got ‘em baby, anything goes in the 1980’s
Actually, at least one of the employees at the "garbage" services was examining coins using a stereo microscope and fluorescent light for many years before many of the "experts" at the top services were old enough to shave!
When the top to "elite" TPGS were founded, their employees (coin dealers) were missing many obvious alterations. You see, they were on a long learning curve back then. I had the bright idea to buy altered coins in slabs and send them in to make money when the TPGS's honored their guarantees. I remember at one major show I introduced myself to the owner of a major service, showed him an altered coin graded MS-65 and told him there were many dozens of them in the hall. His comment to me was "....it's only an 81-S." Needless to say, I decided my idea of getting rich quick would not have worked.
When the top to "elite" TPGS were founded, their employees (coin dealers) were missing many obvious alterations. You see, they were on a long learning curve back then. I had the bright idea to buy altered coins in slabs and send them in to make money when the TPGS's honored their guarantees.
Expecting and relying on any grading service to honor its guarantee is a non-starter these days. Sometimes they don't even try to lawyer it anymore and simply purport to claim the right to unilaterally and retroactively amend the guarantee/contract. Another service yet has resorted to a corporate shell game to try to dodge liability.
When the top to "elite" TPGS were founded, their employees (coin dealers) were missing many obvious alterations. You see, they were on a long learning curve back then. I had the bright idea to buy altered coins in slabs and send them in to make money when the TPGS's honored their guarantees.
Expecting and relying on any grading service to honor its guarantee is a non-starter these days. Sometimes they don't even try to lawyer it anymore and simply purport to claim the right to unilaterally and retroactively amend the guarantee/contract. Another service yet has resorted to a corporate shell game to try to dodge liability.
That's news to me. All I read about on forms is how good the services honor their guarantees. Guess I'm not very informed on what you say is actually going on.
BTW If I had my way there would be no guarantee for any grade given by a TPGS." Only authenticity. I worked at a time when authentication and grading were considered a valuable service to collectors. No one even thought to sue us for any errors in those early years!"
As I posted once before, in the early 1980's, the first grading service at INSAB was threatened by a major auction house with a lawsuit for grading a slider AU. Thankfully the ANA announced the establishment of the second grading service before the dealer had a chance to sue us. The rest is history.
On the liability factor; I bought a Bust dime from a dealer who said he would stand behind it coming back at least MS60, I paid around a grand for it. I get a notification from NGC that the coin had pvc and needed to be conserved. I thought, fine, it will grade better, unfortunately what the small shop dealer called "luster" was pvc masquerading as such. So the coin came back as Unc. details, cleaned when the pvc was removed. And the dealer gave me my money back but saying that the grading service had "ruined" the coin and didn't want to do business with me again.
@logger7 said:
On the liability factor; I bought a Bust dime from a dealer who said he would stand behind it coming back at least MS60, I paid around a grand for it. I get a notification from NGC that the coin had pvc and needed to be conserved. I thought, fine, it will grade better, unfortunately what the small shop dealer called "luster" was pvc masquerading as such. So the coin came back as Unc. details, cleaned when the pvc was removed. And the dealer gave me my money back but saying that the grading service had "ruined" the coin and didn't want to do business with me again.
I agree with him. Very many coins look better covered in PVC. It gives them a frosty look. He said the coin was Unc which it was. Now telling what NCS did. You owned the coin and decided to change it. Guarantee over, No refund. Live and learn.
PS Next time let the dealer send it in BEFORE you buy it. It will save you both aggravation.
@logger7 said:
On the liability factor; I bought a Bust dime from a dealer who said he would stand behind it coming back at least MS60, I paid around a grand for it. I get a notification from NGC that the coin had pvc and needed to be conserved. I thought, fine, it will grade better, unfortunately what the small shop dealer called "luster" was pvc masquerading as such. So the coin came back as Unc. details, cleaned when the pvc was removed. And the dealer gave me my money back but saying that the grading service had "ruined" the coin and didn't want to do business with me again.
I agree with him. Very many coins look better covered in PVC. It gives them a frosty look. He said the coin was Unc which it was. Now telling what NCS did. You owned the coin and decided to change it. Guarantee over, No refund. Live and learn.
PS Next time let the dealer send it in BEFORE you buy it. It will save you both aggravation.
He thought it was a great coin, which it wasn't; neither of us saw it as pvc, which NGC/NCS did and he knew I was sending it in and guaranteed it would grade MS60 and I paid "all the money". He slandered (false accusation) NGC by saying they cleaned the coin improperly when all they did was dip it in acetone.
@logger7 said:
On the liability factor; I bought a Bust dime from a dealer who said he would stand behind it coming back at least MS60, I paid around a grand for it. I get a notification from NGC that the coin had pvc and needed to be conserved. I thought, fine, it will grade better, unfortunately what the small shop dealer called "luster" was pvc masquerading as such. So the coin came back as Unc. details, cleaned when the pvc was removed. And the dealer gave me my money back but saying that the grading service had "ruined" the coin and didn't want to do business with me again.
I agree with him. Very many coins look better covered in PVC. It gives them a frosty look. He said the coin was Unc which it was. Now telling what NCS did. You owned the coin and decided to change it. Guarantee over, No refund. Live and learn.
PS Next time let the dealer send it in BEFORE you buy it. It will save you both aggravation.
He thought it was a great coin, which it wasn't; neither of us saw it as pvc, which NGC/NCS did and he knew I was sending it in and guaranteed it would grade MS60 and I paid "all the money". He slandered (false accusation) NGC by saying they cleaned the coin improperly when all they did was dip it in acetone.
As I posted before he said the coin was unc which it was. So you own it. The ONLY THING I'm reading here is this nonsense: "all they did was dip it in acetone." You don't know that. You don't know what they did. And you've never been inside the conservation lab at NGC. Furthermore, I've read a few complaints about them in the last few years. I reserve judgment as until I have seen some bad conservation results, my opinion is as good as yours.
IMO, you are darn lucky the dealer refunded your money. Depending on the actual condition of the original coin, I may not have. He did the right thing by not doing business with you anymore.
PS This provides us with an excellent example as to why many dealers only do wholesale business to the trade. Use this as just another learning experience. Remember that I've suggested you only purchase coins already graded.
BTW If I had my way there would be no guarantee for any grade given by a TPGS." Only authenticity. I worked at a time when authentication and grading were considered a valuable service to collectors. No one even thought to sue us for any errors in those early years!"
I agree with you and as long as disclosed prior to submission/encapsulation it is an honest solution.
@logger7 said:
On the liability factor; I bought a Bust dime from a dealer who said he would stand behind it coming back at least MS60, I paid around a grand for it. I get a notification from NGC that the coin had pvc and needed to be conserved. I thought, fine, it will grade better, unfortunately what the small shop dealer called "luster" was pvc masquerading as such. So the coin came back as Unc. details, cleaned when the pvc was removed. And the dealer gave me my money back but saying that the grading service had "ruined" the coin and didn't want to do business with me again.
I agree with him. Very many coins look better covered in PVC. It gives them a frosty look. He said the coin was Unc which it was. Now telling what NCS did. You owned the coin and decided to change it. Guarantee over, No refund. Live and learn.
PS Next time let the dealer send it in BEFORE you buy it. It will save you both aggravation.
He thought it was a great coin, which it wasn't; neither of us saw it as pvc, which NGC/NCS did and he knew I was sending it in and guaranteed it would grade MS60 and I paid "all the money". He slandered (false accusation) NGC by saying they cleaned the coin improperly when all they did was dip it in acetone.
As I posted before he said the coin was unc which it was. So you own it. The ONLY THING I'm reading here is this nonsense: "all they did was dip it in acetone." You don't know that. You don't know what they did. And you've never been inside the conservation lab at NGC. Furthermore, I've read a few complaints about them in the last few years. I reserve judgment as until I have seen some bad conservation results, my opinion is as good as yours.
IMO, you are darn lucky the dealer refunded your money. Depending on the actual condition of the original coin, I may not have. He did the right thing by not doing business with you anymore.
PS This provides us with an excellent example as to why many dealers only do wholesale business to the trade. Use this as just another learning experience. Remember that I've suggested you only purchase coins already graded.
OK, so having worked at NCS you are saying it is possible that they cleaned a Bust 10c introducing hairlines that weren't there before? That's a pretty serious charge and if proven then they should be liable for all such damage at the very least.
This was a dealer who kept talking about either this or the other major service that "switched" valuable coins on him, which is ridiculous.
@logger7 said: "OK, so having worked at NCS you are saying it is possible that they cleaned a Bust 10c introducing hairlines that weren't there before? That's a pretty serious charge and if proven then they should be liable for all such damage at the very least."
You need to go back and read the thread. The ONLY person making uninformed comments has been you.
Now, I would not give you a refund and kick you out of my store too. LOL!
@Insider2 said: @logger7 said: "OK, so having worked at NCS you are saying it is possible that they cleaned a Bust 10c introducing hairlines that weren't there before? That's a pretty serious charge and if proven then they should be liable for all such damage at the very least."
You need to go back and read the thread. The ONLY person making uninformed comments has been you.
Now, I would not give you a refund and kick you out of my store too. LOL!
That's a typical "my way or the highway" pig headed redneck uneducated and frankly dishonest attitude that would not hold up in any court for good reason; right reason and honest valuations does not support the arbitrary "opinion" way of doing business, where the uniform commercial code, and standard business practice is based on accurate assessments and valuations. If the guy had claimed the coin was a pristine Unc. when sold; NCS internal notes probably had enough evidence to substantiate the nature of the pvc on the coin and their methods.
@Insider2 said: @logger7 said: "OK, so having worked at NCS you are saying it is possible that they cleaned a Bust 10c introducing hairlines that weren't there before? That's a pretty serious charge and if proven then they should be liable for all such damage at the very least."
You need to go back and read the thread. The ONLY person making uninformed comments has been you.
Now, I would not give you a refund and kick you out of my store too. LOL!
That's a typical "my way or the highway" pig headed redneck uneducated and frankly dishonest attitude that would not hold up in any court for good reason; right reason and honest valuations does not support the arbitrary "opinion" way of doing business, where the uniform commercial code, and standard business practice is based on accurate assessments and valuations. If the guy had claimed the coin was a pristine Unc. when sold; NCS internal notes probably had enough evidence to substantiate the nature of the pvc on the coin and their methods.
LOL! Apparently, you know me. : Yes, "a typical "my way or the highway" pig-headed redneck uneducated..." Now, take your coin, get out of my store, and don't think of returning - ever.
The dealer said the coin was MS-60. NGC said It was. If the guy had claimed the coin was a pristine Unc. when sold; NCS internal notes probably had enough evidence to substantiate the nature of the pvc on the coin and their methods.
Now please stop posting uninformed nonsense. If you think NCS keeps records of what they do to a coin it is hopeless to continue this discussion. News flash, they probably don't even remember the coin.
@Insider2 said: @jmlanzaf said: "Sure...because the putty residue isn't obvious in the photo...."
Well. it should be! Burn this image into your brain. It is the first thing I saw. When these first appeared decades ago the alteration imitated the beautiful "skin" found on original gold. I'll bet tens of thousands of these coins were holdered. As you can see, they still pop up. The alteration turns a bluish color over time and is easily seen in fluorescent light.
I was being sarcastic. The seller wasn't hiding the putty - couldn't.
@Gazes said:
a benefit of a coin in an old holder. if it hasn't turned by now, it wont.
Not completely true. It depends on storage conditions. If it was stored in an intercept shield box in a cool environment, it would slow down many changes. Put it in ambient conditions and it might start changing.
@Insider2 said: @logger7 said: "OK, so having worked at NCS you are saying it is possible that they cleaned a Bust 10c introducing hairlines that weren't there before? That's a pretty serious charge and if proven then they should be liable for all such damage at the very least."
You need to go back and read the thread. The ONLY person making uninformed comments has been you.
Now, I would not give you a refund and kick you out of my store too. LOL!
That's a typical "my way or the highway" pig headed redneck uneducated and frankly dishonest attitude that would not hold up in any court for good reason; right reason and honest valuations does not support the arbitrary "opinion" way of doing business, where the uniform commercial code, and standard business practice is based on accurate assessments and valuations. If the guy had claimed the coin was a pristine Unc. when sold; NCS internal notes probably had enough evidence to substantiate the nature of the pvc on the coin and their methods.
@Insider2 is stating the obvious: gunk, toning, and even PVC can hide blemishes that the dealer could not have seen. No one has X-ray vision. If the dealer made a guarantee, then it is based on the condition of the coin as it was when it sold. If you chemically treat it (dip or otherwise) you have materially altered the merchandise and that would reasonably void any return. If it had PVC that neither of you saw, you should have asked NGC to send it back without conservation to get a refund. @Insider is saying you have no idea what was done. Even market acceptable conservation techniques can affect a coin's originality and value.
I don't see a judge being sympathetic to your case at all. It is similar to if a car dealership offers you a return privilege and you lightly side swipe a tree and do mild body work/a paint job, the dealer will refuse your return. He would win in court.
@Insider2 said: @logger7 said: "OK, so having worked at NCS you are saying it is possible that they cleaned a Bust 10c introducing hairlines that weren't there before? That's a pretty serious charge and if proven then they should be liable for all such damage at the very least."
You need to go back and read the thread. The ONLY person making uninformed comments has been you.
Now, I would not give you a refund and kick you out of my store too. LOL!
That's a typical "my way or the highway" pig headed redneck uneducated and frankly dishonest attitude that would not hold up in any court for good reason; right reason and honest valuations does not support the arbitrary "opinion" way of doing business, where the uniform commercial code, and standard business practice is based on accurate assessments and valuations. If the guy had claimed the coin was a pristine Unc. when sold; NCS internal notes probably had enough evidence to substantiate the nature of the pvc on the coin and their methods.
@Insider2 is stating the obvious: gunk, toning, and even PVC can hide blemishes that the dealer could not have seen. No one has X-ray vision. If the dealer made a guarantee, then it is based on the condition of the coin as is when sold. If you chemically treat it (dip or otherwise) you have materially altered the merchandise and that would reasonably void any return. If it had PVC that neither of you saw, you should have asked NGC to send it back without conservation to get a refund. @Insider is saying you have no idea what was done. Even market acceptable conservation techniques can affect a coin's originality and value.
I don't see a judge being sympathetic to your case at all. It is similar to if a car dealership offers you a return privilege and you lightly side swipe a tree and do mild body work/a paint job, the dealer will refuse your return. He would win in court.
That's an interesting comparison, but it does not compare to a coin bought as a no problem Unc. that is revealed to be impaired by top experts. And the top experts at NGC and PCGS like Rick Montgomery have been court witnesses on companies like Accugrade and the Kearney/Romano boiler room operation. Pricing and grade are based on objective criteria not subject to constantly shifting and arbitrary emotional "standards". https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-2nd-circuit/1709047.html
And I don't believe that any of the sharp graders at the four main grading services P/N/I/A would have any trouble in seeing pvc as well as how it can masquerade as "luster" like we did. If you bought a car that later was shown to be bondoed up that had been sold as never having been in an accident, the consumer has lots of recourse thanks to the lemon laws, etc.. The removal of pvc could never be construed as damage, as though an experienced numismatist would want it on any of his or her coins.
@Insider2 said: @logger7 said: "OK, so having worked at NCS you are saying it is possible that they cleaned a Bust 10c introducing hairlines that weren't there before? That's a pretty serious charge and if proven then they should be liable for all such damage at the very least."
You need to go back and read the thread. The ONLY person making uninformed comments has been you.
Now, I would not give you a refund and kick you out of my store too. LOL!
That's a typical "my way or the highway" pig headed redneck uneducated and frankly dishonest attitude that would not hold up in any court for good reason; right reason and honest valuations does not support the arbitrary "opinion" way of doing business, where the uniform commercial code, and standard business practice is based on accurate assessments and valuations. If the guy had claimed the coin was a pristine Unc. when sold; NCS internal notes probably had enough evidence to substantiate the nature of the pvc on the coin and their methods.
@Insider2 is stating the obvious: gunk, toning, and even PVC can hide blemishes that the dealer could not have seen. No one has X-ray vision. If the dealer made a guarantee, then it is based on the condition of the coin as is when sold. If you chemically treat it (dip or otherwise) you have materially altered the merchandise and that would reasonably void any return. If it had PVC that neither of you saw, you should have asked NGC to send it back without conservation to get a refund. @Insider is saying you have no idea what was done. Even market acceptable conservation techniques can affect a coin's originality and value.
I don't see a judge being sympathetic to your case at all. It is similar to if a car dealership offers you a return privilege and you lightly side swipe a tree and do mild body work/a paint job, the dealer will refuse your return. He would win in court.
That's an interesting comparison, but it does not compare to a coin bought as a no problem Unc. that is revealed to be impaired by top experts. And the top experts at NGC and PCGS like Rick Montgomery have been court witnesses on companies like Accugrade and the Kearney/Romano boiler room operation. Pricing and grade are based on objective criteria not subject to constantly shifting and arbitrary emotional "standards". https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-2nd-circuit/1709047.html
And I don't believe that any of the sharp graders at the four main grading services P/N/I/A would have any trouble in seeing pvc as well as how it can masquerade as "luster" like we did. If you bought a car that later was shown to be bondoed up that had been sold as never having been in an accident, the consumer has lots of recourse thanks to the lemon laws, etc.. The removal of pvc could never be construed as damage, as though an experienced numismatist would want it on any of his or her coins.
You should always read the case before you cite it. The case has no application to this thread or to your hypothetical. In the cited case, defendants were challenging their convictions for federal mail and wire fraud. They ran a coin sales group and sham grading service. The defendants represented to their clients that they graded based on the ANA standards and that the standards used were comparable to prevailing PCGS and NGC standards at the time. This was not the case as coins described as MS65 were coming back as AU50 to AU55. Moreover, one of the defendants claimed to use a three grader process like NGC/PCGS but used only one "grader" that employees testified never actually graded the coins or looked at them. The coins were represented as excellent investments. Customers were pushed away from certified coins. The fraudsters offered a buyback guarantee, but never honored it in a single instance. Evidence was concealed and destroyed. In fact, the business changed locations and names twice to keep the fraud going.
This is nothing like your hypothetical. The dealer called it mint state and offered a return. The coin was mint state but had issues not visible before conservation. No one forced you to pay NCS to conserve it. You could have returned it as it was, but chose to have it altered/conserved. Once you alter the merchandise, you void your return privilege and any guarantee. @Insider2 is correct that he didn't owe you a refund.
I'm pretty confident that the law would support the customer on this; the dealer certified the coin as a no problem Unc.; as both his self-slab indicated in the 2x2. He may have doctored it himself, or it may have been inadvertently on the coin. The same would apply to sellers of doctored coins who make claims that they are selling no problem coins well within the ANA grading standards. The price sheets are totally dependent on accurate grading of coins according to the ANA standards. If you have impaired coins or culls different standards apply. The standards are not arbitrary.
@logger7 said:
I'm pretty confident that the law would support the customer on this; the dealer certified the coin as a no problem Unc.; as both his self-slab indicated in the 2x2. He may have doctored it himself, or it may have been inadvertently on the coin. The same would apply to sellers of doctored coins who make claims that they are selling no problem coins well within the ANA grading standards. The price sheets are totally dependent on accurate grading of coins according to the ANA standards. If you have impaired coins or culls different standards apply. The standards are not arbitrary.
Actually, that conclusion is too broad. The dealer made a private guarantee to you - perhaps - by promising it would MS60. In general, a dealer is offering nothing but an opinion and the only guarantee, if there is one, is whatever is spelled out in the bill of sale.
Please stop obfuscating. YOU CLAIM TO BE A COIN DEALER. You purchased a raw coin and took the opinion of the seller as true - that the coin was MS. IT WAS. You were responsible for allowing a third-party to ALTER ITS AS SOLD CONDITION. You own it. NO REFUND! Nevertheless, It's easy to understand why the dealer gave you a refund. Now, keep out of my store forever as I only deal with professional dealers.
PS. Eventually, as you become more knowledgeable, you'll realize that coins with PVC film can be found straight graded by EVERY major TPGS. They can be very attractive.
PPS One of the most important requirements for conservation is to know which coins to conserve and which not to touch.
Apparently, the coin should have been left as is because both you and the dealer liked it.
PPPS Logger, where did you learn this nonsense? "The price sheets are totally dependent on accurate grading of coins according to the ANA standards. If you have impaired coins or culls different standards apply. The standards are not arbitrary."
I've suggest several times that you spend a few weeks in CO during the summer. It's great fun and it may turn you into a numismatist.
Dealer? I work in a big box store; I never buy from the public; when I buy I get the same pricing as any other customer does, I don't quibble or deal on stuff offered me. So there is really no difference between me and any other customer.
I either wouldn’t allow a return or would take it back and never deal again with a collector who took it upon themselves to conserve a coin and then try to return it. And yes, NCS has been known to ruin coins - they did it to one of mine.
@logger7 said:
Dealer? I work in a big box store; I never buy from the public; when I buy I get the same pricing as any other customer does, I don't quibble or deal on stuff offered me. So there is really no difference between me and any other customer.
I stand corrected. You came across as a "Vest-Pocket" dealer to me for all this time. I'm relieved you are not a coin dealer. Therefore, I take back most of my comments except stay out of my store and take a grading seminar. Whether I gave you a refund would depend on your attitude when you wanted to return the coin you bought.
I have found that when returning something it is best to take a store credit or a trade. Then I should keep you around.
@Jimnight said: @Insider2 said:
My only question is why did you post at all on this old thread?
I never looked at the date the thread was posted and assumed that it was a new thread. I'll be checking the dates from now on.
Old putty new putty old thread new thread long thread short thread. Its all about the educating some good folks so to make better decisions when collecting.
Carry on.
The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
I take all returns - and then block the returnees.
My "favorite" return of all time was an 1883 Liberty Nickel that was Unc with a green spot - AS ADVERTISED. The buyer scrubbed the nickel until it was a nest of hairlines and then returned it because he didn't like the way it looked. When I said to him - what did you do? He said, "I was trying to get the spot off".
You can imagine the dealer being concerned that you will try conserving any number of coins in his inventory and then returning them when you don't like the way they come out.
The only time I don't block a returnee is when there was something I missed.
@crazyhounddog said:
Old putty new putty old thread new thread long thread short thread. Its all about the educating some good folks so to make better decisions when collecting.
Carry on.
The only time I don't block a returnee is when there was something I missed.
I can't agree with that. Reasonable minds are free to differ. Not every return is frivolous. I would block frivolous returnees or one who altered a coin and then tried to force a return.
The only time I don't block a returnee is when there was something I missed.
I can't agree with that. Reasonable minds are free to differ. Not every return is frivolous. I would block frivolous returnees or one who altered a coin and then tried to force a return.
You don't have to agree - or disagree. You aren't the one footing the bill. You get a vote when it's your money.
If you want to return it at your expense, I won't block you. But they all want to return it at my expense. I'm not running an approval service. When you buy a $10 coin and return it to me, I'm out $6 round-trip shipping and I still have the coin. If it is exactly as described and photographed, I'm not letting you do it to me again.
I once had a woman buy a 1909 VDB cent in XF. She then contacted me and told me there was no VDB. I could see it in the photo. I pointed it out to her. She said she could see it in the photo but not on the coin. When I got it back it was clear as day WITHOUT MAGNIFICATION. I don't know if she didn't like it. I don't know if she was half blind. She claimed she showed it to 4 people who couldn't see the VDB. I'm assuming it was all lies and she just wanted to return it. So, I'm out $6 round trip shipping on a $10 coin.
On the other hand, I once had a guy return a slab because he didn't like it in person. He was a dealer. He returned it at his expense and even reimbursed me for the shipping to him. He did NOT get blocked.
The only time I don't block a returnee is when there was something I missed.
I can't agree with that. Reasonable minds are free to differ. Not every return is frivolous. I would block frivolous returnees or one who altered a coin and then tried to force a return.
You don't have to agree - or disagree. You aren't the one footing the bill. You get a vote when it's your money.
If you want to return it at your expense, I won't block you. But they all want to return it at my expense. I'm not running an approval service. When you buy a $10 coin and return it to me, I'm out $6 round-trip shipping and I still have the coin. If it is exactly as described and photographed, I'm not letting you do it to me again.
I once had a woman buy a 1909 VDB cent in XF. She then contacted me and told me there was no VDB. I could see it in the photo. I pointed it out to her. She said she could see it in the photo but not on the coin. When I got it back it was clear as day WITHOUT MAGNIFICATION. I don't know if she didn't like it. I don't know if she was half blind. She claimed she showed it to 4 people who couldn't see the VDB. I'm assuming it was all lies and she just wanted to return it. So, I'm out $6 round trip shipping on a $10 coin.
On the other hand, I once had a guy return a slab because he didn't like it in person. He was a dealer. He returned it at his expense and even reimbursed me for the shipping to him. He did NOT get blocked.
My post came off the wrong way, and I see it is because of my sloppy/poor wording. You can obviously run your business however you wish. My point was that it can be short sighted from a business perspective in cases where there are shades of gray. Not everything is black and white in those cases. The first example you cite about the cent is clearly frivolous and not what I was referencing at all. I also didn't say that you necessarily foot the bill. You read way too much into my comments.
On the other hand, I once had a guy return a slab because he didn't like it in person. He was a dealer. He returned it at his expense and even reimbursed me for the shipping to him. He did NOT get blocked.
My post came off the wrong way, and I see it is because of my sloppy/poor wording. You can obviously run your business however you wish. My point was that it can be short sighted from a business perspective in cases where there are shades of gray. Not everything is black and white in those cases. The first example you cite about the cent is clearly frivolous and not what I was referencing at all. I also didn't say that you necessarily foot the bill. You read way too much into my comments.
Fair enough. Sorry if I went overboard. It's a sore subject with me. I don't want to block people. And I wouldn't for a regular customer. But there's to many charge back games a customer can play on eBay to take chances with people who have proven themselves to be hard to please.
Comments
Great question! Quick answer: Liability.
Long answer: The history of Conservation Services. I can only answer from my point of view.
When I joined ANACS in the 1970's, there were many coins that came in with gunk around the mintmark. No problem today but in the 1970's coin authentication was in its infancy. Most of the "experts" were measuring coins and taking specific gravity tests. Diagnostic information was virtually none existent. Oops! I already got off track but this would have made a great column.
Short answer: The history of Conservation...
Back to dirty coins. On several occasions, we needed to call the customer for permission to clean his coin so we could authenticate it. In some cases, I just did it, using a microscope of course. There's more but I'll just say that when we ran out of submission forms at ANACS, we added a signature line giving us permission to clean the coin if necessary. (IMO, all services should have this and ICG is doing it on the new printing as it saves time and phone calls.) At every other service after that, I've regularly cleaned coins, as needed for free, with the owner's permission.
When I joined NGC, I gave the owner the same "pitch" I gave to PCI: We should automatically clean (conserve) every coin that was sent in. My father had a "vapor degreaser" at his business that removed EVERYTHING from the surface of sheets of aluminum! I visualized using a commercial degreaser for coins. That's when I learned about the liability factor as NGC was a much larger TPGS than any I had previously worked at.
One good thing came from all this, As a grader, there was a coin with an unattractive copper spot that killed the prospect of a high grade. Mark asked if anyone could remove it. I did and the coin went up two grades. Later that day I was asked to do another. This continued on a small "experimental" scale until about a year later, I left the grading room and NCS was born.
That really sucks!!
I'm sorry that you didn't like my post.
@Insider2 said:
I'm sorry that you didn't like my post.
Your post wasn't there when I posted mine...and this thread goes back to July of 2012 ???
I think we both knew that. This discussion was linked to an active one about altered surfaces. Note that I posted in it earlier to keep it on the first page so I could read it and comment - which I did above. Thank you very much. My only question is why did you post at all on this old thread? Most think A/S coins suck, that goes without saying.
@Insider2 said:
My only question is why did you post at all on this old thread?
I never looked at the date the thread was posted and assumed that it was a new thread. I'll be checking the dates from now on.
Ancient thread alert!!
Sometimes a reminder is helpful. If you see this and wondered why, now you know. Really looks awful.
I am learning about puttied coin too @karpman9...and I am glad you returned it. BTW your son Benjamin is very cute
Just an added comment... some forms of 'putty' can be detected by UV light... I keep a UV flashlight by my desk. That is not a 100% test, but can help. Cheers, RickO
@Jimnight asked: "My only question is why did you post at all on this old thread?"
Already answered above: This discussion was linked to an active one about altered surfaces. In that discussion,
@Paradisefound asked about "putty." A member in that discussion posted a link to this old thread. I resurrected it to the first page for me, her and others to read.
Not everyone here is as knowledgeable as you. There is so much important information to learn that was posted long ago on CU and forgotten. IMHO, this was one of them.
The lightbulb in me thinks that if the garage slabbers (no offense) knew the racket early on but the pros did not, then they (the garage slabbers) probably had something to do with starting it...the other lightbulb in me thinks you guys shoulda just bought them at melt and sent them all in for “top two” plastic...smoke ‘em if you got ‘em baby, anything goes in the 1980’s
Actually, at least one of the employees at the "garbage" services was examining coins using a stereo microscope and fluorescent light for many years before many of the "experts" at the top services were old enough to shave!
When the top to "elite" TPGS were founded, their employees (coin dealers) were missing many obvious alterations. You see, they were on a long learning curve back then. I had the bright idea to buy altered coins in slabs and send them in to make money when the TPGS's honored their guarantees. I remember at one major show I introduced myself to the owner of a major service, showed him an altered coin graded MS-65 and told him there were many dozens of them in the hall. His comment to me was "....it's only an 81-S." Needless to say, I decided my idea of getting rich quick would not have worked.
Expecting and relying on any grading service to honor its guarantee is a non-starter these days. Sometimes they don't even try to lawyer it anymore and simply purport to claim the right to unilaterally and retroactively amend the guarantee/contract. Another service yet has resorted to a corporate shell game to try to dodge liability.
That's news to me. All I read about on forms is how good the services honor their guarantees. Guess I'm not very informed on what you say is actually going on.
BTW If I had my way there would be no guarantee for any grade given by a TPGS." Only authenticity. I worked at a time when authentication and grading were considered a valuable service to collectors. No one even thought to sue us for any errors in those early years!"
As I posted once before, in the early 1980's, the first grading service at INSAB was threatened by a major auction house with a lawsuit for grading a slider AU. Thankfully the ANA announced the establishment of the second grading service before the dealer had a chance to sue us. The rest is history.
On the liability factor; I bought a Bust dime from a dealer who said he would stand behind it coming back at least MS60, I paid around a grand for it. I get a notification from NGC that the coin had pvc and needed to be conserved. I thought, fine, it will grade better, unfortunately what the small shop dealer called "luster" was pvc masquerading as such. So the coin came back as Unc. details, cleaned when the pvc was removed. And the dealer gave me my money back but saying that the grading service had "ruined" the coin and didn't want to do business with me again.
I agree with him. Very many coins look better covered in PVC. It gives them a frosty look. He said the coin was Unc which it was. Now telling what NCS did. You owned the coin and decided to change it. Guarantee over, No refund. Live and learn.
PS Next time let the dealer send it in BEFORE you buy it. It will save you both aggravation.
He thought it was a great coin, which it wasn't; neither of us saw it as pvc, which NGC/NCS did and he knew I was sending it in and guaranteed it would grade MS60 and I paid "all the money". He slandered (false accusation) NGC by saying they cleaned the coin improperly when all they did was dip it in acetone.
As I posted before he said the coin was unc which it was. So you own it. The ONLY THING I'm reading here is this nonsense: "all they did was dip it in acetone." You don't know that. You don't know what they did. And you've never been inside the conservation lab at NGC. Furthermore, I've read a few complaints about them in the last few years. I reserve judgment as until I have seen some bad conservation results, my opinion is as good as yours.
IMO, you are darn lucky the dealer refunded your money. Depending on the actual condition of the original coin, I may not have. He did the right thing by not doing business with you anymore.
PS This provides us with an excellent example as to why many dealers only do wholesale business to the trade. Use this as just another learning experience. Remember that I've suggested you only purchase coins already graded.
>
I agree with you and as long as disclosed prior to submission/encapsulation it is an honest solution.
OK, so having worked at NCS you are saying it is possible that they cleaned a Bust 10c introducing hairlines that weren't there before? That's a pretty serious charge and if proven then they should be liable for all such damage at the very least.
This was a dealer who kept talking about either this or the other major service that "switched" valuable coins on him, which is ridiculous.
@logger7 said: "OK, so having worked at NCS you are saying it is possible that they cleaned a Bust 10c introducing hairlines that weren't there before? That's a pretty serious charge and if proven then they should be liable for all such damage at the very least."
You need to go back and read the thread. The ONLY person making uninformed comments has been you.
Now, I would not give you a refund and kick you out of my store too. LOL!
That's a typical "my way or the highway" pig headed redneck uneducated and frankly dishonest attitude that would not hold up in any court for good reason; right reason and honest valuations does not support the arbitrary "opinion" way of doing business, where the uniform commercial code, and standard business practice is based on accurate assessments and valuations. If the guy had claimed the coin was a pristine Unc. when sold; NCS internal notes probably had enough evidence to substantiate the nature of the pvc on the coin and their methods.
LOL! Apparently, you know me.
: Yes, "a typical "my way or the highway" pig-headed redneck uneducated..." Now, take your coin, get out of my store, and don't think of returning - ever. 
The dealer said the coin was MS-60. NGC said It was. If the guy had claimed the coin was a pristine Unc. when sold; NCS internal notes probably had enough evidence to substantiate the nature of the pvc on the coin and their methods.
Now please stop posting uninformed nonsense. If you think NCS keeps records of what they do to a coin it is hopeless to continue this discussion. News flash, they probably don't even remember the coin.
I was being sarcastic. The seller wasn't hiding the putty - couldn't.
Not completely true. It depends on storage conditions. If it was stored in an intercept shield box in a cool environment, it would slow down many changes. Put it in ambient conditions and it might start changing.
@Insider2 is stating the obvious: gunk, toning, and even PVC can hide blemishes that the dealer could not have seen. No one has X-ray vision. If the dealer made a guarantee, then it is based on the condition of the coin as it was when it sold. If you chemically treat it (dip or otherwise) you have materially altered the merchandise and that would reasonably void any return. If it had PVC that neither of you saw, you should have asked NGC to send it back without conservation to get a refund. @Insider is saying you have no idea what was done. Even market acceptable conservation techniques can affect a coin's originality and value.
I don't see a judge being sympathetic to your case at all. It is similar to if a car dealership offers you a return privilege and you lightly side swipe a tree and do mild body work/a paint job, the dealer will refuse your return. He would win in court.
That's an interesting comparison, but it does not compare to a coin bought as a no problem Unc. that is revealed to be impaired by top experts. And the top experts at NGC and PCGS like Rick Montgomery have been court witnesses on companies like Accugrade and the Kearney/Romano boiler room operation. Pricing and grade are based on objective criteria not subject to constantly shifting and arbitrary emotional "standards". https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-2nd-circuit/1709047.html
And I don't believe that any of the sharp graders at the four main grading services P/N/I/A would have any trouble in seeing pvc as well as how it can masquerade as "luster" like we did. If you bought a car that later was shown to be bondoed up that had been sold as never having been in an accident, the consumer has lots of recourse thanks to the lemon laws, etc.. The removal of pvc could never be construed as damage, as though an experienced numismatist would want it on any of his or her coins.
You should always read the case before you cite it. The case has no application to this thread or to your hypothetical. In the cited case, defendants were challenging their convictions for federal mail and wire fraud. They ran a coin sales group and sham grading service. The defendants represented to their clients that they graded based on the ANA standards and that the standards used were comparable to prevailing PCGS and NGC standards at the time. This was not the case as coins described as MS65 were coming back as AU50 to AU55. Moreover, one of the defendants claimed to use a three grader process like NGC/PCGS but used only one "grader" that employees testified never actually graded the coins or looked at them. The coins were represented as excellent investments. Customers were pushed away from certified coins. The fraudsters offered a buyback guarantee, but never honored it in a single instance. Evidence was concealed and destroyed. In fact, the business changed locations and names twice to keep the fraud going.
This is nothing like your hypothetical. The dealer called it mint state and offered a return. The coin was mint state but had issues not visible before conservation. No one forced you to pay NCS to conserve it. You could have returned it as it was, but chose to have it altered/conserved. Once you alter the merchandise, you void your return privilege and any guarantee. @Insider2 is correct that he didn't owe you a refund.
I'm pretty confident that the law would support the customer on this; the dealer certified the coin as a no problem Unc.; as both his self-slab indicated in the 2x2. He may have doctored it himself, or it may have been inadvertently on the coin. The same would apply to sellers of doctored coins who make claims that they are selling no problem coins well within the ANA grading standards. The price sheets are totally dependent on accurate grading of coins according to the ANA standards. If you have impaired coins or culls different standards apply. The standards are not arbitrary.
Actually, that conclusion is too broad. The dealer made a private guarantee to you - perhaps - by promising it would MS60. In general, a dealer is offering nothing but an opinion and the only guarantee, if there is one, is whatever is spelled out in the bill of sale.
New grade
Genuine-bombed by seagulls
Love it HRH!
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@logger7
Please stop obfuscating. YOU CLAIM TO BE A COIN DEALER. You purchased a raw coin and took the opinion of the seller as true - that the coin was MS. IT WAS. You were responsible for allowing a third-party to ALTER ITS AS SOLD CONDITION. You own it. NO REFUND! Nevertheless, It's easy to understand why the dealer gave you
a refund. 
Now, keep out of my store forever as I only deal with professional dealers.
PS. Eventually, as you become more knowledgeable, you'll realize that coins with PVC film can be found straight graded by EVERY major TPGS. They can be very attractive.
PPS One of the most important requirements for conservation is to know which coins to conserve and which not to touch.
Apparently, the coin should have been left as is because both you and the dealer liked it.
PPPS Logger, where did you learn this nonsense? "The price sheets are totally dependent on accurate grading of coins according to the ANA standards. If you have impaired coins or culls different standards apply. The standards are not arbitrary."
I've suggest several times that you spend a few weeks in CO during the summer. It's great fun and it may turn you into a numismatist.
Dealer? I work in a big box store; I never buy from the public; when I buy I get the same pricing as any other customer does, I don't quibble or deal on stuff offered me. So there is really no difference between me and any other customer.
I either wouldn’t allow a return or would take it back and never deal again with a collector who took it upon themselves to conserve a coin and then try to return it. And yes, NCS has been known to ruin coins - they did it to one of mine.
I stand corrected. You came across as a "Vest-Pocket" dealer to me for all this time. I'm relieved you are not a coin dealer. Therefore, I take back most of my comments except stay out of my store and take a grading seminar. Whether I
gave you a refund would depend on your attitude when you wanted to return the coin you bought.
I have found that when returning something it is best to take a store credit or a trade.
Then I should keep you around. 
Old putty new putty old thread new thread long thread short thread. Its all about the educating some good folks so to make better decisions when collecting.
Carry on.
A good thread to bump. Very interesting read!
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I take all returns - and then block the returnees.
My "favorite" return of all time was an 1883 Liberty Nickel that was Unc with a green spot - AS ADVERTISED. The buyer scrubbed the nickel until it was a nest of hairlines and then returned it because he didn't like the way it looked. When I said to him - what did you do? He said, "I was trying to get the spot off".
You can imagine the dealer being concerned that you will try conserving any number of coins in his inventory and then returning them when you don't like the way they come out.
The only time I don't block a returnee is when there was something I missed.
@crazyhounddog said:
Old putty new putty old thread new thread long thread short thread. Its all about the educating some good folks so to make better decisions when collecting.
Carry on.
Exactly.
I can't agree with that. Reasonable minds are free to differ. Not every return is frivolous. I would block frivolous returnees or one who altered a coin and then tried to force a return.
You don't have to agree - or disagree. You aren't the one footing the bill. You get a vote when it's your money.
If you want to return it at your expense, I won't block you. But they all want to return it at my expense. I'm not running an approval service. When you buy a $10 coin and return it to me, I'm out $6 round-trip shipping and I still have the coin. If it is exactly as described and photographed, I'm not letting you do it to me again.
I once had a woman buy a 1909 VDB cent in XF. She then contacted me and told me there was no VDB. I could see it in the photo. I pointed it out to her. She said she could see it in the photo but not on the coin. When I got it back it was clear as day WITHOUT MAGNIFICATION. I don't know if she didn't like it. I don't know if she was half blind. She claimed she showed it to 4 people who couldn't see the VDB. I'm assuming it was all lies and she just wanted to return it. So, I'm out $6 round trip shipping on a $10 coin.
On the other hand, I once had a guy return a slab because he didn't like it in person. He was a dealer. He returned it at his expense and even reimbursed me for the shipping to him. He did NOT get blocked.
My post came off the wrong way, and I see it is because of my sloppy/poor wording. You can obviously run your business however you wish. My point was that it can be short sighted from a business perspective in cases where there are shades of gray. Not everything is black and white in those cases. The first example you cite about the cent is clearly frivolous and not what I was referencing at all. I also didn't say that you necessarily foot the bill. You read way too much into my comments.
Fair enough. Sorry if I went overboard. It's a sore subject with me. I don't want to block people. And I wouldn't for a regular customer. But there's to many charge back games a customer can play on eBay to take chances with people who have proven themselves to be hard to please.