karpman, the coin looks beautiful after PCGS got rip of the putty! Can you see any blemishes that the coin doctors were trying to cover up as I see none
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Here's a pic of more recent Saint I purchased and then returned to the seller after I noticed something distracting on the surface of the obverse. Sorry for the poor pic from my iPhone and for the selection lines.
So after reviewing the returned coin, the dealer informed me that he didn't think it was puttied. But he also didn't offer me any other explanation except to say that he didn't think it was a doctored coin and that in his opinion it would be highly unlikely for a coin doctor to waste their time doctoring generic gold type of this grade. Now with that said, I was really pleased that he stood behind his 5 day return policy and accepted the coin back, but I just wished that he could have offered me a more definitive opinion on what he thought was on the surface of the Saint.
What do you guys think? ----> Putty or an enviornmental/storage issue causing the milky-white film?
It's great to be back on the boards and contributing!!! Thank you for any and all opinions on what may have happened to this Saint!
Jeff.K. Karp
Meet my first little guy, Benjamin. Born 4/8/2007 Pic taken at 2.5 years of age.
<< <i>BTW: I think it was HRH that referenced a serious problem with matted proof gold. Was this a reference to putty on most of the matted proof gold or was it a different issue altogether? If different, what was it that was done to most of them? >>
I think he is talking about hairline scratches being removed using a lasering process.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>BTW: I think it was HRH that referenced a serious problem with matted proof gold. Was this a reference to putty on most of the matted proof gold or was it a different issue altogether? If different, what was it that was done to most of them? >>
I think he is talking about hairline scratches being removed using a lasering process. >>
I think lasering is on regular proof gold and matte is more of a chemical process.
<< <i>The milkiness should be very obvious to any knowledgeable collector or dealer. >>
DonWillis, For most it's something learned after being bitten as there's no pictures of this type of doctoring in any books or websites that I know of. It would be great if PCGS could do a web page with images of different type of coin issues that fail the sniffer. Iodined gold is another that comes to mind yet if a newbie wanted to see a example of such he/she would be hard pressed to find one.
To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
<< <i>BTW: I think it was HRH that referenced a serious problem with matted proof gold. Was this a reference to putty on most of the matted proof gold or was it a different issue altogether? If different, what was it that was done to most of them? >>
I think he is talking about hairline scratches being removed using a lasering process. >>
I think lasering is on regular proof gold and matte is more of a chemical process. >>
Lasering is for recreating or smoothing brilliant mirror fields.
Chemical "pickling" in acid is often used to modify matte proof gold. Sometimes additives are applied to adhere to the surfaces afterwards. Different substances for brilliants and mattes, intended to affect and effect different aspects of reflectivity.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
<<Lots of different substances and processes fall under this umbrella-like description. That's OK, but be aware that lots of different effects can result from different substances and various techniques for their application. All "altered surfaces" as currently accepted usage indicates, but by no means the only form of it.>> - Col. Jessup
Exactly. And goodness knows the spread of potential "solutions" to unknown content putty jobs and the outcome when trying to conserve?
<< <i><<Lots of different substances and processes fall under this umbrella-like description. That's OK, but be aware that lots of different effects can result from different substances and various techniques for their application. All "altered surfaces" as currently accepted usage indicates, but by no means the only form of it.>> - Col. Jessup
Exactly. And goodness knows the spread of potential "solutions" to unknown content putty jobs and the outcome when trying to conserve?
Best wishes, Eric >>
There were some epoxied DMPL'sh S$1's around more than 10 years or so back. When the surfaces came off it wasn't pretty
Both services compared notes and stopped it after I'd only been fooled once
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
<< <i>Perhaps a bit naively, but I would have thought this one would be off the market by now... >>
It may have been in someone's safety deposit box for the last 10 years.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Perhaps a bit naively, but I would have thought this one would be off the market by now... >>
It will be interesting to see if the original submitter will buy this one off the market and crack it out. >>
See if PCGS was on the East Coast someone in a Hawaiian Shirt would already have had the submitter, his family, or new resident in his old house buy it!
To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
<< <i>"right before my very eyes"...I don't think so. Meaning i don't believe the original buyer new,only a guess. >>
I'd venture to say that the coin was submitted by a knowledgeable inividual who knew full well what had been done to the coin and that the submission was closer to the 1995 time frame when the Collectors Club simply did not exist.
PCGS was only accepting submission from PCGS Authorized Coin Dealers which had to have established store fronts.
I'd also venture to guess that David Hall knows exactly who the individual is that submitted the coin and that that individual has a certain "history".
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
I'm curious: there have been issues with the silver eagles and milk spotting, and some seem to think an acetone dip would cure that issues....obviously an acetone dip fixes puttied coin issues...Maybe it would be in everyone's best interest if PCGS cleansed all coins in acetone before encapsulating them. This would take some extra time and probably extra cost, but it would alleviate some of the problems that are arising and ultimately save PCGS money in the long run. I may be over looking the reasoning for not doing this but upon first thought it sounds good.
Silver Eagle spotting is an entirely different issue. Acetone will not remove the spots. This problem is common to all .999 silver coins produced by every mint. We do not know the exact cause but it appears to be something in the minting process. Could it be the silicone used to speed up minting? We dont know. This is beyond the control of the grading services and there is nothing we can do to prevent or cure this spotting.
We receive original unopened boxes from multiple mints that contain many spotted coins in OMP. I
Just as with gold there appears to be a market for non-spotted SE and spotted. Until the mints figure out how to prevent this from happening the two markets will continue to be a reality.
Is it possible that this 1914 MPL was the product of a coin doctor using an acid based solution? What are the possibilities of the coin turning in the holder?
This was from a Heritage sale in 2008.
Does David or Don have any knowledge of the whereabouts of this coin?
<< <i>I'm curious: there have been issues with the silver eagles and milk spotting, and some seem to think an acetone dip would cure that issues....obviously an acetone dip fixes puttied coin issues...Maybe it would be in everyone's best interest if PCGS cleansed all coins in acetone before encapsulating them. This would take some extra time and probably extra cost, but it would alleviate some of the problems that are arising and ultimately save PCGS money in the long run. I may be over looking the reasoning for not doing this but upon first thought it sounds good. >>
PCGS has the responsibility to insure that coins submitted to them do not receive any damage or midification waht so ever. If they receive a coin in a submission that they believe is puttied, it would just be wrong on multiple levels for PCGS or ANY TPG to simply "dip" the coin and make it right. Thats the responsibility of the coins owner.
What would happen to PCGS's reputation if the putty was concealing a deep gash? Do you suppose the submitter would be pleased receiving an MS63 coin (which s/he thought would go MS66) with a deep gash in it? Do you think the submitter would scream that PCGS somehow "switched" the coin?
As for Acetone and Silver Eagles, I have no idea what folks are thinking since an Acetoner dip has absolutely no effect on the contaminents which cause milk spotting. My Silver Eagles get an E-Z-Est dip followed with a good water then alcohol rinse. Even that has limitations since speculation is that the contaminents which cause the spotting are actually struck into the surface of the coin.
Sadly, Unitl the US Mint actively addresses this probelm, the Silver American Eagle coins will coninue to be plagued by this issue. Only by changing the final coin rinse or perhaps adding a second rinse will alleviate this prob;em.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>Yup. It's been puttied, usually to hide hairline scratches. It wasn't visible to the graders at the time it was slabbed but as the putty ages it turns a milky white color. This slab should be returned to PCGS who can usually remove the putty and reslab it. If the grade drops they will make a fair financial adjustment. >>
Although not the same problem,do you know if PCGS or NCS can remove a very tiny amount of metallic mercury particles from silver collectible coins without effecting the grade?
Who did the seller think would buy that coin, a blind person? The coin is ruined and should not be in any self respecting dealer's case or store. It should either be conserved and salvaged or sold off as gold scrap unless there is a TPG guarantee.
<< <i>Mercury (pure ) will boil off if heated but DON'T breathe the fumes... >>
TY, I'll stick it in the oven right now! Actually,I was thinking of sending the Morgan to NCS,but I have never made such a submission before. I called them today,but of course they don't give you a clue until you've spent the money first to sent it in.
I will forever have the image ingrained in my mind of the loud mouthed obnoxious dealer that I once observed openly puttying double eagles at a Baltimore show in a flurry of preparation for a last minute submission at the show. I am 100% certain that this coin doctor is now well known to DW and HRH and has been effectively left holding the bag. I haven't seen him around Baltimore in a long time..
<< <i>Mercury (pure ) will boil off if heated but DON'T breathe the fumes... >>
TY, I'll stick it in the oven right now! Actually,I was thinking of sending the Morgan to NCS,but I have never made such a submission before. I called them today,but of course they don't give you a clue until you've spent the money first to sent it in. >>
Can you really blame them for not wanting to discuss your coin without first seeing it?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
So we'll check the cert number, find out who submitted the coin...and then I'll explain to the original submitter the wisdom of him buying this coin and cracking it out, if you know what I mean.
Look...coin doctoring is a fact of the marketplace. We continue to work on technological and legal solutions. We fight the battle every day. People put gunk on coins, they look OK for a while, then the gunk turns and the coins look like they were bombed by seagulls. We do have a grading guarantee, but putting putty or other chemicals on coins is not a good deal for the coin market and hurts everyone except the doctors who make a short term profit. And the sad part is that many wonderful coins are being ruined forever. What has been done to Matte proof gold is heartbreaking.
The community should also work on community solutions. This is a problem that effects everyone. >>
Two years to the day plus a day later, that's weird! Wanted to TTT as I was wondering about puttied pieces, HRH's stance above, Crypto's recent observations re: the PCGS guarantee, and if anything's changed.
I myself have a puttied MS-63 1914 Barber quarter, no great shakes, looks like it "should" acetone off, and be reslabbable, hopefully as a 63 again. Maybe send in for the PCGS conservation service? Gonna take a fair bit of time from what I've read -- or I could acetone it myself and submit again, or, had random thoughts about placing into a Cap Plastics type set holder I've been messing around with.
Anyway, fortunately among my modest collection, just the one Barber Quarter seems to be the putty victim. Would love to have HRH chime in on any changes to the PCGS guarantee, if he wishes.
What horribly ruined coins and these weren't inexpensive either. I think I will just buy USM Products directly from the mint or slabbed 69 and 70 Mods. Certainly they would not putty those or would they.
The really terrible thing is that a novice collector unaware of putty will see that and think how could a TPG have slabbed something so horrible looking. I remember getting some gold coins from TTR in the old days and would get these doggy pieces (not knowing about puttying or even heard of it) and return them being dinged with their restock fee thinking who in the world would buy this stuff.....I will take the hit on the return before being stuck with that garbage.
The putty people should be hunted down, tried, pilloried, and then shot. Man those guys burn me up.
@streg2 said:
How would you know the original submitter was the culprit? If it passed the graders, then couldn't it have fooled the submiter and it was like that when they purchased the coin? Just wondering.
@Sonorandesertrat said:
<< <i>Interesting that this piece is being openly offered for sale by what I assume is a coin dealer who's been on Ebay for nearly 14 yrs, has over 30,000 feedbacks, and currently has over 400 certified coins for sale. >>
Ebay is commonly used as a venue for the sale of coins that won't sell in face-to-face transactions, so this is not a surprise.
Sure...because the putty residue isn't obvious in the photo....
@jmlanzaf said: "Sure...because the putty residue isn't obvious in the photo...."
Well. it should be! Burn this image into your brain. It is the first thing I saw. When these first appeared decades ago the alteration imitated the beautiful "skin" found on original gold. I'll bet tens of thousands of these coins were holdered. As you can see, they still pop up. The alteration turns a bluish color over time and is easily seen in fluorescent light.
@Broadstruck said: "Actually most of the puttied gold I've seen has been in OGH's... Yet there's TONS more in ICG holders."
Reading your post leads me to believe you may be a big dealer with a stock of the top TPGS slabs.
Unfortunately, IMHO, you are extremely misinformed. This type of alteration was around in the 1980's and the top two TPGS slabbed tens of thousands of these altered coins while the lowly little INSAB, and PCI where I graded/authenticated at the time were sending them back as altered surfaces. This is one of the easiest alterations to detect when you know what to look for: marks with the same surface as there surroundings. I've been at ICG for nine years and this crap does not get into our holders if I'm on the box. We don't cross them either.
@insider2 - Why don't the services make submitters agree that the TPGS reserves the right to rinse all non-toned, non-copper coins in acetone? It would kill PVC haze (incidental and applied by doctors to cover blemishes), remove organic crud, and remove putty.
Comments
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
So after reviewing the returned coin, the dealer informed me that he didn't think it was puttied. But he also didn't offer me any other explanation except to say that he didn't think it was a doctored coin and that in his opinion it would be highly unlikely for a coin doctor to waste their time doctoring generic gold type of this grade. Now with that said, I was really pleased that he stood behind his 5 day return policy and accepted the coin back, but I just wished that he could have offered me a more definitive opinion on what he thought was on the surface of the Saint.
What do you guys think? ----> Putty or an enviornmental/storage issue causing the milky-white film?
It's great to be back on the boards and contributing!!! Thank you for any and all opinions on what may have happened to this Saint!
Meet my first little guy, Benjamin. Born 4/8/2007
Pic taken at 2.5 years of age.
<< <i>BTW: I think it was HRH that referenced a serious problem with matted proof gold. Was this a reference to putty on most of the matted proof gold or was it a different issue altogether? If different, what was it that was done to most of them? >>
I think he is talking about hairline scratches being removed using a lasering process.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>This is a total newbie question, but the light area is the puttied part, not the darker area right? >>
I'd like to bring attention to this as I have a related question.
If the lighter area is the puttied part, what is going on with the darker area? The surfaces of that entire coin just look completely off.
Successful BST transactions with: copperhunter (2010), Tdec1000 (2010), barrytrot (2011), kaz, (2011), Metalsman (2011), jimineez1 (2020), U1chicago (2020)
<< <i>
<< <i>BTW: I think it was HRH that referenced a serious problem with matted proof gold. Was this a reference to putty on most of the matted proof gold or was it a different issue altogether? If different, what was it that was done to most of them? >>
I think he is talking about hairline scratches being removed using a lasering process. >>
I think lasering is on regular proof gold and matte is more of a chemical process.
<< <i>The milkiness should be very obvious to any knowledgeable collector or dealer. >>
DonWillis, For most it's something learned after being bitten as there's no pictures of this type of doctoring in any books or websites that I know of. It would be great if PCGS could do a web page with images of different type of coin issues that fail the sniffer. Iodined gold is another that comes to mind yet if a newbie wanted to see a example of such he/she would be hard pressed to find one.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>BTW: I think it was HRH that referenced a serious problem with matted proof gold. Was this a reference to putty on most of the matted proof gold or was it a different issue altogether? If different, what was it that was done to most of them? >>
I think he is talking about hairline scratches being removed using a lasering process. >>
I think lasering is on regular proof gold and matte is more of a chemical process. >>
Lasering is for recreating or smoothing brilliant mirror fields.
Chemical "pickling" in acid is often used to modify matte proof gold. Sometimes additives are applied to adhere to the surfaces afterwards. Different substances for brilliants and mattes, intended to affect and effect different aspects of reflectivity.
Exactly. And goodness knows the spread of potential "solutions" to unknown content putty jobs and the outcome when trying to conserve?
Best wishes,
Eric
<< <i><<Lots of different substances and processes fall under this umbrella-like description. That's OK, but be aware that lots of different effects can result from different substances and various techniques for their application. All "altered surfaces" as currently accepted usage indicates, but by no means the only form of it.>> - Col. Jessup
Exactly. And goodness knows the spread of potential "solutions" to unknown content putty jobs and the outcome when trying to conserve?
Best wishes,
Eric >>
There were some epoxied DMPL'sh S$1's around more than 10 years or so back. When the surfaces came off it wasn't pretty
Both services compared notes and stopped it after I'd only been fooled once
peacockcoins
<< <i>Perhaps a bit naively, but I would have thought this one would be off the market by now... >>
It may have been in someone's safety deposit box for the last 10 years.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Perhaps a bit naively, but I would have thought this one would be off the market by now... >>
It will be interesting to see if the original submitter will buy this one off the market and crack it out.
<< <i>
<< <i>Perhaps a bit naively, but I would have thought this one would be off the market by now... >>
It may have been in someone's safety deposit box for the last 10 years. >>
No, sorry.
I meant now that's it's been brought to the attention of the hobby's Market Makers...
peacockcoins
<< <i>
<< <i>Perhaps a bit naively, but I would have thought this one would be off the market by now... >>
It will be interesting to see if the original submitter will buy this one off the market and crack it out. >>
See if PCGS was on the East Coast someone in a Hawaiian Shirt would already have had the submitter, his family, or new resident in his old house buy it!
<< <i>1908-D $10 Ebay >>
All kidding aside if you check the OP's link above you'll see it's already OFF the market
I'm glad someone, anyone stepped up to make right a wrong.
peacockcoins
<< <i>
<< <i>1908-D $10 Ebay >>
All kidding aside if you check the OP's link above you'll see it's already OFF the market
<< <i>eBay removed the listing and asked the seller to contact PCGS. >>
Good deal!
<< <i>"right before my very eyes"...I don't think so. Meaning i don't believe the original buyer
new,only a guess. >>
I'd venture to say that the coin was submitted by a knowledgeable inividual who knew full well what had been done to the coin and that the submission was closer to the 1995 time frame when the Collectors Club simply did not exist.
PCGS was only accepting submission from PCGS Authorized Coin Dealers which had to have established store fronts.
I'd also venture to guess that David Hall knows exactly who the individual is that submitted the coin and that that individual has a certain "history".
The name is LEE!
We receive original unopened boxes from multiple mints that contain many spotted coins in OMP. I
Just as with gold there appears to be a market for non-spotted SE and spotted. Until the mints figure out how to prevent this from happening the two markets will continue to be a reality.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
What are the possibilities of the coin turning in the holder?
This was from a Heritage sale in 2008.
Does David or Don have any knowledge of the whereabouts of this coin?
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
<< <i>I'm curious: there have been issues with the silver eagles and milk spotting, and some seem to think an acetone dip would cure that issues....obviously an acetone dip fixes puttied coin issues...Maybe it would be in everyone's best interest if PCGS cleansed all coins in acetone before encapsulating them. This would take some extra time and probably extra cost, but it would alleviate some of the problems that are arising and ultimately save PCGS money in the long run. I may be over looking the reasoning for not doing this but upon first thought it sounds good. >>
PCGS has the responsibility to insure that coins submitted to them do not receive any damage or midification waht so ever. If they receive a coin in a submission that they believe is puttied, it would just be wrong on multiple levels for PCGS or ANY TPG to simply "dip" the coin and make it right. Thats the responsibility of the coins owner.
What would happen to PCGS's reputation if the putty was concealing a deep gash? Do you suppose the submitter would be pleased receiving an MS63 coin (which s/he thought would go MS66) with a deep gash in it? Do you think the submitter would scream that PCGS somehow "switched" the coin?
As for Acetone and Silver Eagles, I have no idea what folks are thinking since an Acetoner dip has absolutely no effect on the contaminents which cause milk spotting. My Silver Eagles get an E-Z-Est dip followed with a good water then alcohol rinse. Even that has limitations since speculation is that the contaminents which cause the spotting are actually struck into the surface of the coin.
Sadly, Unitl the US Mint actively addresses this probelm, the Silver American Eagle coins will coninue to be plagued by this issue. Only by changing the final coin rinse or perhaps adding a second rinse will alleviate this prob;em.
The name is LEE!
Remember this thread if you are considering buying any coin "sight unseen".
<< <i>Yup. It's been puttied, usually to hide hairline scratches. It wasn't visible to the graders at the time it was slabbed but as the putty ages it turns a milky white color. This slab should be returned to PCGS who can usually remove the putty and reslab it. If the grade drops they will make a fair financial adjustment. >>
Although not the same problem,do you know if PCGS or NCS can remove a very tiny amount of metallic mercury particles from silver collectible coins without effecting the grade?
Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>Mercury (pure ) will boil off if heated but DON'T breathe the fumes... >>
TY, I'll stick it in the oven right now!
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
<< <i>
<< <i>Mercury (pure ) will boil off if heated but DON'T breathe the fumes... >>
TY, I'll stick it in the oven right now!
Can you really blame them for not wanting to discuss your coin without first seeing it?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
<< <i>Sure looks like a putty job to me.
So we'll check the cert number, find out who submitted the coin...and then I'll explain to the original submitter the wisdom of him buying this coin and cracking it out, if you know what I mean.
Look...coin doctoring is a fact of the marketplace. We continue to work on technological and legal solutions. We fight the battle every day. People put gunk on coins, they look OK for a while, then the gunk turns and the coins look like they were bombed by seagulls. We do have a grading guarantee, but putting putty or other chemicals on coins is not a good deal for the coin market and hurts everyone except the doctors who make a short term profit. And the sad part is that many wonderful coins are being ruined forever. What has been done to Matte proof gold is heartbreaking.
The community should also work on community solutions. This is a problem that effects everyone. >>
Two years to the day plus a day later, that's weird!
I myself have a puttied MS-63 1914 Barber quarter, no great shakes, looks like it "should" acetone off, and be reslabbable, hopefully as a 63 again. Maybe send in for the PCGS conservation service? Gonna take a fair bit of time from what I've read -- or I could acetone it myself and submit again, or, had random thoughts about placing into a Cap Plastics type set holder I've been messing around with.
Anyway, fortunately among my modest collection, just the one Barber Quarter seems to be the putty victim. Would love to have HRH chime in on any changes to the PCGS guarantee, if he wishes.
" the proof is in the puttyng "
( The spelling's atrocious , but how about the puns ? )
The really terrible thing is that a novice collector unaware of putty will see that and think how could a TPG have slabbed something so horrible looking. I remember getting some gold coins from TTR in the old days and would get these doggy pieces (not knowing about puttying or even heard of it) and return them being dinged with their restock fee thinking who in the world would buy this stuff.....I will take the hit on the return before being stuck with that garbage.
The putty people should be hunted down, tried, pilloried, and then shot. Man those guys burn me up.
Note to read this...
+1
Sure...because the putty residue isn't obvious in the photo....
Acetone on Puddy?
@jmlanzaf said: "Sure...because the putty residue isn't obvious in the photo...."
Well. it should be! Burn this image into your brain. It is the first thing I saw. When these first appeared decades ago the alteration imitated the beautiful "skin" found on original gold. I'll bet tens of thousands of these coins were holdered. As you can see, they still pop up. The alteration turns a bluish color over time and is easily seen in fluorescent light.
@Broadstruck said: "Actually most of the puttied gold I've seen has been in OGH's... Yet there's TONS more in ICG holders."
Reading your post leads me to believe you may be a big dealer with a stock of the top TPGS slabs.
Unfortunately, IMHO, you are extremely misinformed. This type of alteration was around in the 1980's and the top two TPGS slabbed tens of thousands of these altered coins while the lowly little INSAB, and PCI where I graded/authenticated at the time were sending them back as altered surfaces. This is one of the easiest alterations to detect when you know what to look for: marks with the same surface as there surroundings. I've been at ICG for nine years and this crap does not get into our holders if I'm on the box. We don't cross them either.
@insider2 - Why don't the services make submitters agree that the TPGS reserves the right to rinse all non-toned, non-copper coins in acetone? It would kill PVC haze (incidental and applied by doctors to cover blemishes), remove organic crud, and remove putty.
a benefit of a coin in an old holder. if it hasn't turned by now, it wont.