What grade do you think the most worn 1804 Dollar would get today?
BillJones
Posts: 33,794 ✭✭✭✭✭
Here is a photo of Edward Cohen – DuPont specimen of the 1804. This photo is from “The Fantastic 1804 Dollar” by Eric P. Newman and Kenneth Bresset, which was published in 1962 by the Whitman Publishing Company.
The description is “Very Fine; has been circulated and has many nicks and scratches.”
What grade do you think this coin would get today? It was stolen in a late ‘60s robbery, and correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think that it has ever been recovered.
For the record the Mickley specimen, which currently up for auction, received this grade in the “Fantastic 1804 Dollar” book:
“Very nearly Uncirculated, nice steel gray tone, slight friction on the high points.”
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
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The coin is a VF. I just read the post and was pleased to see I was correct. Judging from the amount of wear, I think it would still grade VF today (VF-35 "details). Even though I tried to push XF, I don't think the surface luster will be present enough.
LOL, Got you, Today? Today this is an AU-50 green bean. (sorry JA the bean part is a joke also).
VF20. There is just too much wear to call it anything more ... even though a TPG might be tempted to do so in order to get it into their holder.
If you meant money: My guess would be around $1 million. I think that's what it takes to join the club.
Grade: VF something.
In the photo, I see curved marks above and into the "B" in Liberty. I wonder if someone was thinking of drilling a hole.
Vf20 all day everyday
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
I wonder if the DuPont coins are still togeather?
Haven’t some of them been found? The 66no motto set and the 54s, and 1804 dollar. Wow... to think they are out there
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
while that coin appears to be VF-35 "by the book", it would probably XF40 at either TPG. I don't think it would bean at XF40 due to the nicks.
It's a million dollar coin, easily. Heck, you can drill a hole in it and put it on a chain and it's probably still a quarter million.
This coin was recovered in 1993 in Switzerland and was subsequently donated to the ANA. I know @CaptHenway helped recover one but wasn't it the Linderman Class III when sent to ANACS in the early 80's?
Latin American Collection
From the NNP:
The Dupont collection was robbed at gunpoint early in the morning of October 6, 1967. Five men wearing hoods broke into the home in Miami. They took $4000 in cash including $1000 in loose silver dollars. They took an estimated $50,000 in jewelry and the coin collection. Included was much of the Mikhailovitch collection of Russian coins and medals. The U.S. collection included 3100 copper, bronze and silver coins and 1300 gold coins. It represented an almost complete collection of regular issues in silver and gold. It included both Type I and type III dollars of 1804. Included were the unique 1866 no motto quarter, unique 1866 no motto half dollar and one of two known 1866 no motto dollars. The Brasher Doubloon was returned in July 1968. The Linderman class III 1804 dollar came to ANACS for authentication and was recovered in 1981. The Cohen class I 1804 dollar was recovered in Switzerland in 1993. In 1994 the Cohen Class I 1804 dollar was donated to the ANA. The Linderman Class II 1804 dollar was donated to the Smithsonian Institution.
Latin American Collection
@jmlanzaf said: "While that coin appears to be VF-35 "by the book", it would probably XF40 at either Florida location."
What does "either Florida location" refer to? NGC is in Sarasota, FL. Do they have another location?
So, please forgive my ignorance, after reading Wiki and other sources on the 1804 dollars, how did this one circulate for so long? It would seem they would never have circulated or at least, be caught within a transaction or two.
@jmlanzaf
Care to elaborate on some ignorant (uninformed, inexperienced, obtuse, misguided, naive) misinformation you posted for what reason I believe I know!
What does "either Florida location" refer to?
This is a Class I 1804 dollar which was issued circa 1834 before there were very many coin collectors in the U.S. Few people would have recognized this as a collectors' item at that time. Therefore the piece could have been spent, or it may have been someone's pocket piece. According the "Fantastic 1804 Dollar" book:
"This dollar was said to have been received in 1865 over the counter by Edward Cohen, who was keeping the Exchange off in Richmond. It was passed by him to his uncle, Colonel M. I. Cohen of Baltimore, whose collection was sold by Edward Cogan, October 25-29, 1875."
The Civil War ended in 1865, and this dollar was picked up in Richmond, Virginia at a time when the South on its back in every way. Richmond had just fallen to the Union forces and the Confederates had set it on fire to keep the supplies stored there out of hands of the Union. Perhaps the person who passed this piece "over the counter" to Edward Cohen was down to his last dollar.
Correct, except that the Linderman piece I recovered should be called a Class III in the last reference.
It was hand carried in. The crooks had shown it to a dealer in Texas, who had agreed to buy it for an agreed-upon price. The deal was that if we agreed it was genuine the crook would leave it with us for certification, fly (or maybe drive) back to Texas to get his cash, and then we would send the certified coin to the new owner. After I recognized it and we got the guy to leave it, we just told the dealer don't give him any money.
RE: "The Dupont collection was robbed at gunpoint early...."
Uhhh, no....the DuPont collection was stolen at gunpoint early....
As for the coin, I agree with VF, damaged. But today's "grading" might call it "MS-62, PL" or some other false description.
I think they would give it a vf35 for marketing purposes.... I think it is a vf20 minus
Since the string seems to have its limit, I'll weigh in.
I would have a hard time giving this coin a "clean" VF grade becauase of all marks and the rim nick at 10k on the revese. Most lower grade Bust Dollars have fewer marks than this piece. This piece is below average, preservation wise, for a Bust Dollar.
There are still nice "true EF" Bust Dollars out there. Here is lowest grade piece in my date set, a 1798 Small Eagle Dollar that is in a** PCGS VF-35 holder**. For those who think that this 1804 Dollar should get within shouting distance of the EF, you should look at this coin.
But I know, using "comercial grading standards" it's an 1804 and that adds 15 to 20 points to the grade.
There's a better picture of the Cohen here:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/679275/numismatic-treasures-3-1804-silver-dollar
Scroll down a ways.
Is their "restoration/conservation service a separate facility?
NGC and NCS are in the same building. NCS grades are assigned by NGC graders after they are conserved.
Actually, there are at least three TPGS's in FL. WINGS reviews foreign coins with a sticker. ICG is a second tier service. They would need to pry my cold hands off the delete key if they tried to grade that dollar XF.
Sorry, I was trying to say either TPG and dropped a mental bit. I mean either PCGS or NGC...or ANACS for that matter.
By the way, when I make an excellent point, everyone fails to read it. But when I make a mistake....EVERYONE spots it immediately. LOL.
By the way, what reason do you think I have for posting misinformation?
It is listed as raw PR30 in the roster that Heritage has with the one currently up for auction. If it were any other year, I would guess a VF Details (damage or scratches). Being an 1804, I suspect Proof-30 probably would be the slab grade.
https://coins.ha.com/itm/proof-early-dollars/1804-1-original-pr62-pcgs-secure/a/1276-4003.s?ic16=ViewItem-BrowseTabs-Auction-Open-ThisAuction-120115
"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
I call it BU....."BEAT UP"!
Perhaps it was carried as a pocket piece?
Possible.
VF35
My immediate thought upon seeing the photos was VF30.
For this coin, grade does not really matter... Sure, we can debate among ourselves the level of abuse the coin has endured.... But all of us would love to own it, and few ever will. Cheers, RickO
Was in ANA Headquarters yesterday so I took another quick look at the Cohen. It is on display face down next to the Bebee, which is face up.
Overall, in the light available in the exhibit, it looks like a decent VF-20. Had to look to see the rim marks.
There are a few sparkles of the original Proof surface in well-protected areas.
A great old thread by LeeG.
Hmmm...I wonder whose hands this coin passed through, in commerce, through history.
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VF 35