Not on copper most of the time. As you can see, and in total disagreement to the board member here who says otherwise, it turns copper funky colors. Once they turn that funky color, PCGS calls it questionable. There is always some purple in there.
On silver, it does nothing to cause a no grade unless you uncover a cleaning hiding under the gunk.
Yes that is the MS70 'look'. The patina is stripped off by MS70 revealing the toning on the surfaces beneath it. Most of the time a very nice look, but many don't like the patina stripped off.
Unless you are saving the copper from complete destruction, I would not use the cleaner. Some get graded this way and some don't. I guess it depends on their mood that day.
"May the silver waves that bear you heavenward be filled with love’s whisperings"
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
As has been so eloquently said already, MS70 results are not good on copper - always worse if there is any circulation whatever on the coin. I think personally that it takes the "life" out of the coin. MS70 treatment on Proof copper can be quite interesting and has been controversial.
Unc. Silver results are often quite positive. Again, circulated pieces often don't fare so well, in my experience.
I would not have cleaned it but I also think we are looking at two different things here. The background on the two upper right hand pics and he lower two pics are about a billion shades different that the background on what I assume are the original look. Not comparing apples to apples in my opinion.
it's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide
Third pic was taken to show the toning better looks "flashier" in hand
@tommy44 said:
I would not have cleaned it but I also think we are looking at two different things here. The background on the two upper right hand pics and he lower two pics are about a billion shades different that the background on what I assume are the original look. Not comparing apples to apples in my opinion.
@Boosibri said:
Never on copper. Nice original piece before...
"Never" is one of those words that should NEVER be used without a complete knowledge of the subject and decades of experience.
Do you actually have something to contribute?
?????????? I ALREADY HAVE. Thank you very much.
Now, all the OP needs to do is to put the "finishing touch" to the conservation job he has started.
PS AFAIK, Brian Silliman discusses coin conservation in his ANA course. Brian joined NCS after I started Numismatic CONSERVATION Service along with Dave Camire several years after we moved to FL.
PPS: Please post the reason you found to disagree with this UNIVERSAL TRUTH: ""Never" is one of those words that should NEVER be used without a complete knowledge of the subject and decades of experience."
Otherwise, I'll consider it for what it is - something completely unexpected from a member as you.
One opinion is any process that alters the original surface is "cleaning." Some differ. Whether the result is acceptable becomes an individual and commercial opinion.
To me, the treated views show the coin to have a little more eye appeal and 'pop'.
But certainly I can see the point of view of preserving the originality too.
I have used MS70 on some inexpensive coins and gotten similar results.
Due to the controversy I would never (risking Insider's wrath here ) use it on valuable pieces.
I would and have used the original Blue Ribbon material on valuable copper coins.
And if the OP were to treat his piece with this material, it would remove (hide is probably better) that faux frosty appearance on the CWT.
I know Rick Snow has strong, well informed opinions on these various treatments....hopefully he will chime in soon.
@Walkerguy21D said:
To me, the treated views show the coin to have a little more eye appeal and 'pop'.
But certainly I can see the point of view of preserving the originality too.
I have used MS70 on some inexpensive coins and gotten similar results.
Due to the controversy I would never (risking Insider's wrath here ) use it on valuable pieces.
I would and have used the original Blue Ribbon material on valuable copper coins.
And if the OP were to treat his piece with this material, it would remove (hide is probably better) that faux frosty appearance on the CWT.
I know Rick Snow has strong, well informed opinions on these various treatments....hopefully he will chime in soon.
You have risked "Insiders wrath" so here it comes! Excellent and informative post! After the application of "Care," the greasy film must be removed.
I am forced to agree with Wabbit on this and I can only assume the debate will begin in earnest very soon. based only on my experience, MS70 on copper/bronze tends to cause a color change and I believe that at least PCGS understands and recognizes this. I look at it like this --- everyone seems to know not to use an acidic product like E-Z-Est on copper/bronze, why would it be OK to use an alkaline product like MS70 on copper/bronze??
@keets said:
I am forced to agree with Wabbit on this and I can only assume the debate will begin in earnest very soon. based only on my experience, MS70 on copper/bronze tends to cause a color change and I believe that at least PCGS understands and recognizes this. I look at it like this --- everyone seems to know not to use an acidic product like E-Z-Est on copper/bronze, why would it be OK to use an alkaline product like MS70 on copper/bronze??
Because it removes the accumulation of corrosion products on the surface of copper and makes MOST copper surfaces "POP" with the original luster hidden by the ages. Think about it...very often "color change" is the desired result of coin conservation.
The coin must be evaluated first as the application of MS-70 (or any other chemical) on copper surfaces that are unsuitable WILL cause unsightly results - "blue" is not one of them (see OP's coin); yet it seems to be falling out of favor with the TPGS's. The knowledge acquired by the folks working at TPGS conservation services (IGG, NCS, ANACS (?), and PCGS) is why they are so valuable to collectors.
BTW, an honest professional will tell you that just about any chemical (including water) has the potential and will occasionally "blow-up" any coin for no apparent reason. Trust me, as I know.
@Smittys said:
Third pic was taken to show the toning better looks "flashier" in hand
@tommy44 said:
I would not have cleaned it but I also think we are looking at two different things here. The background on the two upper right hand pics and he lower two pics are about a billion shades different that the background on what I assume are the original look. Not comparing apples to apples in my opinion.
You say "flashier", I say "artificial". The original coins would have slabbed. The cleaned coins probably would not and even raw may be worth less, at least to a discerning eye.
Poll Question: There are about a dozen posters commenting in this thread. One or two say they have never used MS-70 on copper. Several (includes me) say they have with mixed results.
I'm interested in knowing if any of the folks posting opinions here have actually used this product on copper more than one time. Care to post an answer?
@Insider2 said: Poll Question: There are about a dozen posters commenting in this thread. One or two say they have never used MS-70 on copper. Several (includes me) say they have with mixed results.
I'm interested in knowing if any of the folks posting opinions here have actually used this product on copper more than one time. Care to post an answer?
I have experimented with it. I have had mixed results. In my chemical opinion, the fake coloring is likely due to an interaction between the detergent and some surface contaminant. If it were an interaction with the copper itself, you'd see the same thing on brand new shiny clean cents, and you don't.
The "surface contaminant" could be the surface toning itself. MS-70 has potassium hydroxide, which is a base, but it can also engage in oxidation/reduction reactions which may be converting the surface oxide/sulfide into a different compound giving rise too the purple/blue. My suspicion (I have no empirical evidence) is that it is not the oxide/sulfide but some other surface contamination.
At that point, I got bored with the experiment. If anyone wants to continue the experiment, I would take a bunch of dirty toned cents and do my best to clean half of them in several different non-aqueous solvents (acetone, heptane, etc). See if the half that get cleaned well and the half that don't get cleaned well behave the same with the MS-70.
I don’t have any before and after photos, but on brown coins I’ve only seen that light frosty iridescence form on the surfaces.
On red coins you can get some bold blue, purple, and other colors. These were supposedly part of a 1943 Mexican mint set, stored in the old yellow envelopes for decades. All the coins developed a dull brownish haze. Here are the copper coins, post MS-70 treatment.
I also highly recommend to NOT soak a matte proof Lincoln in Acetone.
I once brought a dipped proof Indian back from the dead (I didn't dip it) by using MS-70 on it later. The MS-70 changed the color BACK to an acceptable one. (Pure luck) It is nothing but a guessing game when using MS-70.
I would rather own the "before" coin. I have never knowingly bought an MS-70 treated coin, but I have not cared for it from the photos of coins I've seen that have been subjected to it.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Next time I get a request to clean up a copper coin I'll post a before and after discussion. I've seen dull, brown,
AU-58 CWT's "pop" into "glossy," Brown-Red MS-64 and 65's numerous times. That's the point of Conservation!
I just like the saying on the token, which obviously was done in the days before social media, back when there was still free speech without coordinated and extreme condemnation, if someone disagrees.
"The flag of our union, If anybody attempts to tear it down, shoot him on the spot."
As far as the cleaning, I like the original color which is what I see on old copper coins all the time, and I certainly like original un-dipped color on gold, yet I can also see that in some cases like the Mexican examples you can get an interesting result that could appeal to some.
@Goldminers said:
I just like the saying on the token, which obviously was done in the days before social media, back when there was still free speech without coordinated and extreme condemnation, if someone disagrees.
"The flag of our union, If anybody attempts to tear it down, shoot him on the spot."
As far as the cleaning, I like the original color which is what I see on old copper coins all the time, and I certainly like original un-dipped color on gold, yet I can also see that in some cases like the Mexican examples you can get an interesting result that could appeal to some.
The Mexican coins need to be "fixed" as they appear chemically altered and totally unacceptable (artificial color) these days. They are not Indian Head Proofs.
Yes, the Mexican coins do seem extremely unnatural to me and not original looking, and so could use "fixing" or they should have been restored a different way, but some people might pay more because they look shiny.
Stalk, stalk, stalk...stalk, stalk, stalk...stalking. Only kidding. I wish you would take a crack at answering you own question as it is a very good one and very easy to explain. Unfortunately, a complete answer needs qualifiers and will take a lot of typing. I'm going to answer this eventually but I'm sure others her (including you) can give the answer.
@Insider2 said:
Next time I get a request to clean up a copper coin I'll post a before and after discussion. I've seen dull, brown,
AU-58 CWT's "pop" into "glossy," Brown-Red MS-64 and 65's numerous times. That's the point of Conservation!
@Insider2 said:
Next time I get a request to clean up a copper coin I'll post a before and after discussion. I've seen dull, brown,
AU-58 CWT's "pop" into "glossy," Brown-Red MS-64 and 65's numerous times. That's the point of Conservation!
You certainly don't grade them as such!
I don't claim to be a "commercial grader." I've been told that my job is to be first on the coin and make sure our finalizer knows the "technical condition" of the coin - altered surface, repairs, originality, circulation wear ah, rub, damage, "cabinet friction," rim/edge condition, environmental damage, etc. I frequently put into the notes section comments as:
If I was looking for this CWT by Fuld catalog number and was offered the "after" version, I would give it consideration. If I was offered the "before" version, I would give it more consideration.
@au58 said:
If I was looking for this CWT by Fuld catalog number and was offered the "after" version, I would give it consideration. If I was offered the "before" version, I would give it more consideration.
I agree. I'd take the "Before" also and make it into a beautiful "After" that you would really enjoy owning. Best of all, it would look 100% natural.
@Insider2 said: Poll Question: There are about a dozen posters commenting in this thread. One or two say they have never used MS-70 on copper. Several (includes me) say they have with mixed results.
I'm interested in knowing if any of the folks posting opinions here have actually used this product on copper more than one time. Care to post an answer?
Yup, I have and have before and after images that I have shown here before.
I would and have used the original Blue Ribbon material on valuable copper coins.
The problem with BR is that it is a volatile compound and goes away with time. After applied, makes a copper look great, but then you have to redo it from time to time. If you then put it in a slab, well without later applications, the copper turns dull. Seen this happen on many of my coppers when I followed the EACS club mantra of BR 'conditioning'........... (It was even for sale in the club journal). No more of that for me I like my copper slabbed with no intervention to disguise problems.
Smittys
Posts: 9,876 ✭✭✭✭✭
Comments
I would say, yes, it is mostly market acceptable.
Is it cleaning, technically, I suppose it is.
Not on copper most of the time. As you can see, and in total disagreement to the board member here who says otherwise, it turns copper funky colors. Once they turn that funky color, PCGS calls it questionable. There is always some purple in there.
On silver, it does nothing to cause a no grade unless you uncover a cleaning hiding under the gunk.
Never on copper. Nice original piece before...
Latin American Collection
It can do wonders for some coins, high grade AU to MS. Not a great choice for anything lower, IMO. Does work better for silver coins.
Explain the pics please. I see three sides to one coin.
bob
Not recommended !!!
Yes that is the MS70 'look'. The patina is stripped off by MS70 revealing the toning on the surfaces beneath it. Most of the time a very nice look, but many don't like the patina stripped off.
Best, SH
Successful transactions with-Boosibri,lkeigwin,TomB,Broadstruck,coinsarefun,Type2,jom,ProfLiz, UltraHighRelief,Barndog,EXOJUNKIE,ldhair,fivecents,paesan,Crusty...
Patina is part of the character and I
it
I think it is acceptable on ms silver. anything circulated has turned out a little weird for me.
the copper is controversial. The tokens definitely have the ms70 look
Unless you are saving the copper from complete destruction, I would not use the cleaner. Some get graded this way and some don't. I guess it depends on their mood that day.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
As has been so eloquently said already, MS70 results are not good on copper - always worse if there is any circulation whatever on the coin. I think personally that it takes the "life" out of the coin. MS70 treatment on Proof copper can be quite interesting and has been controversial.
Unc. Silver results are often quite positive. Again, circulated pieces often don't fare so well, in my experience.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
I preferred the 'before' look... the 'after' look appears brassy and without the nice 'chocolate' look of old copper. Cheers, RickO
I would not use it on copper, and have not used it in years. There are products that aren't as harsh.
+1
"Never" is one of those words that should NEVER be used without a complete knowledge of the subject and decades of experience.
I would not have cleaned it but I also think we are looking at two different things here. The background on the two upper right hand pics and he lower two pics are about a billion shades different that the background on what I assume are the original look. Not comparing apples to apples in my opinion.
it's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide
Third pic was taken to show the toning better looks "flashier" in hand
Do you actually have something to contribute?
Latin American Collection
?????????? I ALREADY HAVE. Thank you very much.
Now, all the OP needs to do is to put the "finishing touch" to the conservation job he has started.
PS AFAIK, Brian Silliman discusses coin conservation in his ANA course. Brian joined NCS after I started Numismatic CONSERVATION Service along with Dave Camire several years after we moved to FL.
PPS: Please post the reason you found to disagree with this UNIVERSAL TRUTH: ""Never" is one of those words that should NEVER be used without a complete knowledge of the subject and decades of experience."
Otherwise, I'll consider it for what it is - something completely unexpected from a
member as you.
One opinion is any process that alters the original surface is "cleaning." Some differ. Whether the result is acceptable becomes an individual and commercial opinion.
To me, the treated views show the coin to have a little more eye appeal and 'pop'.
But certainly I can see the point of view of preserving the originality too.
I have used MS70 on some inexpensive coins and gotten similar results.
) use it on valuable pieces.
Due to the controversy I would never (risking Insider's wrath here
I would and have used the original Blue Ribbon material on valuable copper coins.
And if the OP were to treat his piece with this material, it would remove (hide is probably better) that faux frosty appearance on the CWT.
I know Rick Snow has strong, well informed opinions on these various treatments....hopefully he will chime in soon.
You have risked "Insiders wrath" so here it comes! Excellent and informative post! After the application of "Care," the greasy film must be removed.
I am forced to agree with Wabbit on this and I can only assume the debate will begin in earnest very soon. based only on my experience, MS70 on copper/bronze tends to cause a color change and I believe that at least PCGS understands and recognizes this. I look at it like this --- everyone seems to know not to use an acidic product like E-Z-Est on copper/bronze, why would it be OK to use an alkaline product like MS70 on copper/bronze??
i would say it is. not a bad improvement but just the same
Because it removes the accumulation of corrosion products on the surface of copper and makes MOST copper surfaces "POP" with the original luster hidden by the ages. Think about it...very often "color change" is the desired result of coin conservation.
The coin must be evaluated first as the application of MS-70 (or any other chemical) on copper surfaces that are unsuitable WILL cause unsightly results - "blue" is not one of them (see OP's coin); yet it seems to be falling out of favor with the TPGS's. The knowledge acquired by the folks working at TPGS conservation services (IGG, NCS, ANACS (?), and PCGS) is why they are so valuable to collectors.
BTW, an honest professional will tell you that just about any chemical (including water) has the potential and will occasionally "blow-up" any coin for no apparent reason. Trust me, as I know.
Interesting discussion.
My YouTube Channel
I've never used this stuff before, but I've heard of it.
It's an oil, right?
My YouTube Channel
You say "flashier", I say "artificial". The original coins would have slabbed. The cleaned coins probably would not and even raw may be worth less, at least to a discerning eye.
No, MS70 is an aqueous detergent. That's why the copper results are mixed.
translinesupply.com/PDF/MDSSHEETS/MS707530.MSDS.pdf
Poll Question: There are about a dozen posters commenting in this thread. One or two say they have never used MS-70 on copper. Several (includes me) say they have with mixed results.
I'm interested in knowing if any of the folks posting opinions here have actually used this product on copper more than one time. Care to post an answer?
a multitude of times, enough to have an opinion based in fact and not speculation. please comment on Wabbit since you don't stalk me.
I have experimented with it. I have had mixed results. In my chemical opinion, the fake coloring is likely due to an interaction between the detergent and some surface contaminant. If it were an interaction with the copper itself, you'd see the same thing on brand new shiny clean cents, and you don't.
The "surface contaminant" could be the surface toning itself. MS-70 has potassium hydroxide, which is a base, but it can also engage in oxidation/reduction reactions which may be converting the surface oxide/sulfide into a different compound giving rise too the purple/blue. My suspicion (I have no empirical evidence) is that it is not the oxide/sulfide but some other surface contamination.
At that point, I got bored with the experiment. If anyone wants to continue the experiment, I would take a bunch of dirty toned cents and do my best to clean half of them in several different non-aqueous solvents (acetone, heptane, etc). See if the half that get cleaned well and the half that don't get cleaned well behave the same with the MS-70.
Yes multiple times.
I don’t have any before and after photos, but on brown coins I’ve only seen that light frosty iridescence form on the surfaces.
On red coins you can get some bold blue, purple, and other colors. These were supposedly part of a 1943 Mexican mint set, stored in the old yellow envelopes for decades. All the coins developed a dull brownish haze. Here are the copper coins, post MS-70 treatment.
I also highly recommend to NOT soak a matte proof Lincoln in Acetone.
I once brought a dipped proof Indian back from the dead (I didn't dip it) by using MS-70 on it later. The MS-70 changed the color BACK to an acceptable one. (Pure luck) It is nothing but a guessing game when using MS-70.
I would rather own the "before" coin. I have never knowingly bought an MS-70 treated coin, but I have not cared for it from the photos of coins I've seen that have been subjected to it.
What happened with that one?
Collector, occasional seller
Next time I get a request to clean up a copper coin I'll post a before and after discussion. I've seen dull, brown,
AU-58 CWT's "pop" into "glossy," Brown-Red MS-64 and 65's numerous times. That's the point of Conservation!
I just like the saying on the token, which obviously was done in the days before social media, back when there was still free speech without coordinated and extreme condemnation, if someone disagrees.
"The flag of our union, If anybody attempts to tear it down, shoot him on the spot."
As far as the cleaning, I like the original color which is what I see on old copper coins all the time, and I certainly like original un-dipped color on gold, yet I can also see that in some cases like the Mexican examples you can get an interesting result that could appeal to some.
National Commemorative Medals of the U.S. Mint:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/medals-tokens/national-commemorative-medals-united-states-mint-1940-present/alltimeset/195526
The Mexican coins need to be "fixed" as they appear chemically altered and totally unacceptable (artificial color) these days. They are not Indian Head Proofs.
I've seen dull, brown, AU-58 CWT's "pop" into "glossy," Brown-Red MS-64 and 65's numerous times
so MS70 turns an AU58 into an MS64-65?? please explain how it added luster and got rid of rub.
Insider,
Yes, the Mexican coins do seem extremely unnatural to me and not original looking, and so could use "fixing" or they should have been restored a different way, but some people might pay more because they look shiny.
National Commemorative Medals of the U.S. Mint:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/medals-tokens/national-commemorative-medals-united-states-mint-1940-present/alltimeset/195526
Stalk, stalk, stalk...stalk, stalk, stalk...stalking.
Only kidding. I wish you would take a crack at answering you own question as it is a very good one and very easy to explain. Unfortunately, a complete answer needs qualifiers and will take a lot of typing. I'm going to answer this eventually but I'm sure others her (including you) can give the answer.
You certainly don't grade them as such!
I have heard if used correctly it can restore original luster. I would leave it to the host unless your just wanting to take care of your own.
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
I don't claim to be a "commercial grader." I've been told that my job is to be first on the coin and make sure our finalizer knows the "technical condition" of the coin - altered surface, repairs, originality, circulation wear ah, rub, damage, "cabinet friction," rim/edge condition, environmental damage, etc. I frequently put into the notes section comments as:
"Commercial 64?"
"Unc enough"
"Market acceptable?"
"with rub"
Thankfully, I'm not the grading finalizer. I'm the authentication finalizer - a much more "black & white" decision.
If I was looking for this CWT by Fuld catalog number and was offered the "after" version, I would give it consideration. If I was offered the "before" version, I would give it more consideration.
I agree. I'd take the "Before" also and make it into a beautiful "After" that you would really enjoy owning. Best of all, it would look 100% natural.
Here are four more dark side pieces treated with MS 70, two views:
Yup, I have and have before and after images that I have shown here before.
Best, SH
Successful transactions with-Boosibri,lkeigwin,TomB,Broadstruck,coinsarefun,Type2,jom,ProfLiz, UltraHighRelief,Barndog,EXOJUNKIE,ldhair,fivecents,paesan,Crusty...
able pieces.
The problem with BR is that it is a volatile compound and goes away with time. After applied, makes a copper look great, but then you have to redo it from time to time. If you then put it in a slab, well without later applications, the copper turns dull. Seen this happen on many of my coppers when I followed the EACS club mantra of BR 'conditioning'........... (It was even for sale in the club journal). No more of that for me I like my copper slabbed with no intervention to disguise problems.
Best, SH
Successful transactions with-Boosibri,lkeigwin,TomB,Broadstruck,coinsarefun,Type2,jom,ProfLiz, UltraHighRelief,Barndog,EXOJUNKIE,ldhair,fivecents,paesan,Crusty...