1720-A 20 Sol US French Colonial coin that is likely top-pop Looking for Provenance help.
Senator32
Posts: 407 ✭✭✭✭✭
Hello CU forums,
I purchased an amazing mostly world coin collection in the Midwest USA this last week and was shocked to find a very rare US French Colonial coin in the mix that is in gem condition. From what I have seen, this coin will almost certainly become the finest known once PCGS has graded it, and it even came with the card from when it was last sold in the 70s or 80s by Steve Ivy Rare Coins (now president of HA).
Firstly, I wanted to share this amazing coin with the forum, but also enlist the help of the forum members to to find the provenance for this amazing coin. I know it was sold by Steve Ivy Rare Coins, but have yet to find the auction / catalog for the exact date it was sold...and hopefully who owned it before hand.
My example: 
Steve Ivy Rare Coins card:
Coinfacts link: http://www.pcgscoinfacts.com/Coin/Detail/167113/55
Thanks,
Larry
Comments
No idea of provenance, but a real beauty
BHNC #203
Thanks - I was struck by how pretty it is too! Hoping someone on the forums used to buy a lot from Steve Ivy and can help me trace it back.
I can't help with the provenance, but I can say that I have owned this issue in PCGS MS64 and 63 holders. Are you thinking this one will grade better than 64?
Coin Rarities Online
I am. Honestly I think it is 65-66. No marks, full original booming luster and original un-dipped surfaces. We shall see if PCGS agrees...but in hand this coin is jaw-dropping. I went a bit overboard on the lighting in the photo to show how clean the surfaces are.
Very nice coin...No idea on provenance... but let us know what it grades... Cheers, RickO
Wonderful coin but I don't see 65-66 from the pics. Perhaps it is me or perhaps the coin is even nicer in hand?
Latin American Collection
Thanks - we shall see what PCGS says. No doubt in my mind it is unc at very least.
From the pictures I'm seeing a 58 or 62.
I promise to report back with the PCGS results.
I’ll say it’ll grade:
can you take a picture that is a little less white to it. Very old for sure but hard to tell condition from picture.
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
I would but already on its way to PCGS
. Will post the TrueView image. I always over-expose my coins to see the surfaces...helps ID marks and issue but does not do a good job showing luster.
I have been collecting early French Royal of Louis 14-16 but I have yet to pick up this coin.
Congrats.
Very nice old Paris coin. Best wishes on the grade.
The Ivy auction catalogs are up on the NNP.
Ed. S.
(EJS)
good luck and keep us updated!!! Anyone notice the coin has dropped in value? A pcgs one sold for nearly 5k in 2011, in 2017, a ngc one sold for less than 1500...
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
that card is not from an auction, but inventory - like the person bought it at a show or from storefront
@davewesen You are 100% correct. I actually emailed Steve Ivy himself and he confirmed this
. Sadly makes it harder to track....oh well back to digging through the NNP 
That is a pretty broad brush
Latin American Collection
Grades are in and I am super excited to say this 1720-A 20 Sol French Colonial got a MS-63! Will post a TrueView once the image gets posted in the next 48 hours.
wow, congrats
BHNC #203
Way to go@Senator32 glad you got it back so soon.
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
Look forward to seeing this on Reddit!
Hope you're not too disappointed with the assigned grade.
I bet the Trueview will be great.
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
Very nice coin! Congrats! I have no idea what are the highest graded coins are by PCGS(or NGC for that matter) but keep in mind that there are some awesome ones of this type overseas as well as in the US that have never been slabbed.
IMO, you are going to be disappointed. While it is a very attractive coin, AU/UNC still means something.
The luster on the high parts of your coin is gone. IMO, it is a "technical" AU-58 with planchet flaws (not unusual) that has a shot at a "commercial" MS-62. If the graders have not seen many, you may even get an MS-64. LOL.
OMG. Boooo!!! You deserve a BIG FAT DISAGREE for posting this nonsense. Stand in front of Larry Briggs, John Dannreuther, Anthony Terranova, Grellman, Sheridan Downey, Every EAC dealer, etc, etc (Sorry for all I left out) and tell them they are not numismatists.
Oops! Old thread. You and folks better than I graded it higher than MS-62.
Way to go.
I guess then that I should not have accepted that "Numismatist of the Year" award while I was still working for Harlan J. Berk in Chicago?
Let's see....a lovely AU-58 plus the standard five points smooch for being dated in the 1700's........
Yep! MS-63 it is!
Honestly very happy with the grade. Had hoped for a bit higher but with only ONE better at PCGS...I think it did fairly well
. Excited to post the TrueView when it posts - hopefully tonight?
@Senator32 said: "Honestly very happy with the grade. Had hoped for a bit higher but with only ONE better at PCGS...I think it did fairly well
.
You should be excited! As I posted, it is an attractive coin. However, I'm left puzzled. Your coin is an AU and it was graded MS-63. So What part of this post did you disagree with?: Let's see....a lovely AU-58 plus the standard five points smooch for being dated in the 1700's.... Yep! MS-63 it is!"
This member got both the technical and commercial (PCGS) grades of your piece CORRECT. I failed.
@Insider2 I just disagreed with the AU comment - the coin has full cartwheel luster on both sides and no wear. I thought that is what the button was for
- meant no offense.
None taken! You have the coin. You have the PCGS grade.
Tom and I see an obvious change of color on the relief. We are both "old birds" from a time when coins were graded much differently. Let's forget the relief and just look at the reverse field. Look between the "L's." I see full, original, mint luster. It is in the middle and up against both sides of the "L's" That's the luster. Note how the field turns gray as we move away from the "L's." The mint luster (that remains?) is impaired all the way out to the coins legend where it appears again in the recesses of the letters. Technically, it is no longer MS.
This is where the fun begins in a grading class. I want my students to see everything I've written above. If they do, I've done my job. A conservative grader is going to call the coin AU even though it may be the finest known example. Nevertheless, in the real world, as demonstrated by the grade it received, the coin is MS, it is worth MS money, and we all would probably knock each other over if it were offered as an AU.
Bottom line: Grading is subjective. Each of us needs to decide how much "rub" (ahem, cabinet friction) we will tolerate on a coin before it becomes AU for us.
PS If a TPGS employee called your coin AU he would probably get talked to. LOL.
Look also at the flat tops of the two L’s. See how the luster is worn away compared to the fields on either side.
The Coinfacts version of the TrueView posted. Their photo is much better than mine:
I have to agree with the old-timers. Market 63 but a technical 58. So is the nature of grading these days. The good news is that the market grade determines price. [Or, for old-timers, the bad news is that market grade determines price.]
Note: I'm also a firm believer that definitive grading from photos is a fool's errand.
nice coin
...and excellent curmudgeonly banter, gents! convince me there's a rub!
If that cheek doesn't look rubbed to you, there's no convincing.
Nice coin regardless. Agree with the crusty old guys.
Latin American Collection
Beautiful coin. What I find amazing is that the coin is almost 300 years old and it looks fantastic. Think of all the history it has gone through and it was saved in that condition. Very cool.
I especially like the lilac toning.