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Why is it legal to own counterfeit U.S. coins?

jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,618 ✭✭✭✭✭

wink wink

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  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    ;)

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,427 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It's not supposed to be legal, but law is enforced in a highly spotty manner. The public auction of Omaga High Relief $20 gold coin that was covered in another thread here shows that to be case.

    I've heard dealers say at the major shows that they had such pieces available, but they didn't knowingly put them out for sale. It was sort of the "wink wink" "Come over here ... See what I have under the counter."

    This brazen sale of this coin over the Internet is over the top in my opinion. I wonder of the feds would have been as disinterested if it had been $1,000 in counterfeit currency.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 24,515 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I know it's illegal to sell them.....owning them is a different matter.

    bob :)

    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
  • JimnightJimnight Posts: 10,767 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Have you ever heard the saying " only in America " !!!

  • ColonelJessupColonelJessup Posts: 6,442 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JBK has nailed it. :)
    There's an effort afoot to revive the Alien and Sedition Act of 1798 which, as recapitulated in current events, had a great deal more to do with internal political tensions than balance-of-trade deficits. If you want to see the Right to Piracy exercised in a genteel yet barbarous way, wait till you see the tax credits for private infrastructure development!

    FWIW, maybe 10 years ago Goldbergs' had evidently well-pedigreed counterfeit 1804 and 1805 dollars in a sale.
    All the same questions and zero problems, though I do not recall the term "contemporary" being used >:)B)

    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,427 ✭✭✭✭✭

    FWIW, maybe 10 years ago Goldbergs' had evidently well-pedigreed counterfeit 1804 and 1805 dollars in a sale.

    All the same questions and zero problems, though I do not recall the term "contemporary" being used >:)B)

    There is a big difference between an 1804 Dollar, that has a defined population and well documented list of survivors, and the “1805 Dollar,” which never existed, and the omega counterfeit of the High Relief $20 gold.

    The omega counterfeit is the kind of crap that crooks can use to sell to the unsuspecting. Heck, who knows? Maybe in the future, some jeweler will remove the omega, buff it up a little and get into a “problem” TPG holder. Such an item would SEEM be worth more than the price paid in this auction.

    I think that this Internet sale should have been shut down PERIOD. The omega thing should be pounded to pulp and turned into scrap. Collectors should learn to live without junk like this.

    For those who think I'm an alarmist, the last thing this hobby needs is to get the reputation that there are large numbers of counterfeits for sale INCLUDING fake coins in TPG holders. That the gist of anti-counterfeit taskforce that was covered at the FUN PCGS luncheon

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • Type2Type2 Posts: 13,985 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JBK said:
    I think its in the Constitution.

    The Right to Piracy, or the Right to Keep and Bear Counterfeits, or something.

    No it was don't ask don't tell. Ya that's it.



    Hoard the keys.
  • SaorAlbaSaorAlba Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A real curiousity is the 1959 Lincoln Wheat cent counterfeit that Mark Hoffman claims to have forged. The US Secret Service declared the coin authentic, but the mint says it is not. Goldbergs auctioned the coin 7-8 years ago or so for about $40K.

    In memory of my kitty Seryozha 14.2.1996 ~ 13.9.2016 and Shadow 3.4.2015 - 16.4.21
  • CCGGGCCGGG Posts: 1,267 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 26, 2018 6:52PM

    Why is PCGS allowed to return counterfeits in body bags (ask me how I know) but if you try to deposit any counterfeit bills at the bank they confiscate them? Are there different laws for coins and notes? Or maybe the same regulations don't apply to PCGS?

    I've also "heard" (but I'm not sure if it's true) that you can sell a counterfeit coin if you tell the buyer it's counterfeit?

  • thebeavthebeav Posts: 3,744 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 26, 2018 6:34PM

    Did an Omega twenty recently sell ?
    Does anyone have a link

    Oops, found the thread........

  • JBKJBK Posts: 14,643 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CCGGG said:
    Why is PCGS allowed to return counterfeits in body bags (ask me how I know) but if you try to deposit any counterfeit bills at the bank they confiscate them? Are there different laws for coins and notes?

    I've also "heard" (but I'm not sure if it's true) that you can sell a counterfeit coin if you tell the buyer it's counterfeit?

    This is not a legal opinion but my own take on the matter.

    The bank is dealing with legal tender and has certain legal restrictions and obligations, and relationships with the Fed.

    On the other hand. PCGS is a private company that is simply rendering an opinion about YOUR property. And they could be wrong.

    As a practical matter counterfeit notes are a much bigger priority than coins.

    I don't think there is a law allowing sales of disclosed fakes, but at least if you tell the buyer that it is fake then you can't be charged with fraud. At that point you are merely guilty of possession.

    Just my non-legal opinion.

  • GluggoGluggo Posts: 3,566 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 26, 2018 9:02PM

    Everything in my home is LEGAL. If anybody sais other wise there lying. Law enforcement will need a proper warrant and even then they wont be coming into my home with-out a fight. I will take my chances with the court. Once your in my home without my consent your trespassing and well you know the rest!

  • 3keepSECRETif2rDEAD3keepSECRETif2rDEAD Posts: 4,285 ✭✭✭✭✭

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This is certainly a gray area right now. Counterfeit coins are saturating the market and it seems that nothing is being done at the official level of government. Currency will bring down the full wrath of the Treasury department. I would like to hear from our resident law professionals with opinions and interpretations of current law. Cheers, RickO

  • YQQYQQ Posts: 3,264 ✭✭✭✭✭

    absolutely ZERO is being done by Gov. inCanada.
    RCMP claims not to have any funding for that.
    on the other hand, it would be so simple to at least reduce the flow of any counterfeits coming into the USA and or Canada.
    very simple... but I guess it would be too easy to have another question on the cards you fill out when one enters the country by air or ship. borderguards are more interested to find a minute amount of some type of drug (which might be legal just 20 feet away in the state you come in to, but the border is federal) than asking for counterfeit money.
    there is no common sense being exercised. Note: I am not promoting or agreeing with illegal drugs, I am using it just as a actual example.
    all it would need is a question on the card like: did you aquire any (illegal ?) US (Canadian) currency while outside the country?
    it is unlikely that you will legally accquire your home countries currency while away. And if you legally do, you will have no problem declaring it.
    This method would stop or at least reduce a ton of imported garbage from China and other countries.
    And it would be easy and very low cost. :|

    Today is the first day of the rest of my life
  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,060 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 27, 2018 2:54PM

    @BillJones said:
    It's not supposed to be legal, but law is enforced in a highly spotty manner.

    I agree that the counterfeiting laws are not properly enforced, but that is not the issue here. The statute criminalizing possession explicitly requires an intent to defraud. Without intent or other statute barring possession, it is legal. The intent element is there to prevent an unwitting person from being convicted.

  • burfle23burfle23 Posts: 2,177 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 29, 2018 10:51AM

    Interesting thread; obviously there are many dangerous/ deceptive struck counterfeits "out there", unfortunately many in TPG holders- not trying to be an alarmist either, but stating a fact. Knowledge is the best deterrent, and knowing what you collect, becoming "expert" in it is the first level of defense in my opinion. Many of these can be weeded out by knowing the varieties of the series you collect and comparing images of the suspect ones with genuine images- PCGS CoinFacts and NGC VarietyPlus are great sites for comparison images (although I have an interesting story about an NGC VP image, but that is another story...). Collective resources like this forum and local coin clubs and Groups Like EAC, LSCC and C4 to name a few are outstanding sources of information and camaraderie as well.

    Lately it seems many suspect examples are returned body-bagged as "questionable authenticity" or "authenticity unverifiable", PC terms for it may well be a fake; many of these are damaged, tooled or surface impaired "details" type examples which the counterfeiters have taken to try and hide the truth, but the truth is out there!

    One last comment about TPG's and counterfeits- ICG actually offers a service to encapsulate counterfeits in their new "Not Genuine" holders; these are useful in counterfeit detection classes where examples are passed around through many hands.

    Best, Jack

  • GluggoGluggo Posts: 3,566 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 28, 2018 7:18PM

    " Why is it legal to own counterfeit U.S. coins? "

    Are you a cop?

    Who knows what coins you own to begin with?
    How can it be Illegal if people have NO idea what coins you do own? Especially here on this board, why would you even admit to owning an " Illegal " anything online. After all what you type is a permanent record that can and could be used against you in a court of law or coin board.

    My first question is are you a cop? Just saying don't take this post personal just saying thats all.

  • Josh32Josh32 Posts: 138 ✭✭✭

    @burfle23 said:
    One last comment about TPG's and counterfeits- ICG actually offers a service to encapsulate counterfeits in their new "Not Genuine" holders; these are useful in counterfeit detection classes where examples are passed around through many hands.

    I think counterfeits are important for this very reason, education. Examples of what NOT to buy are just as important as examples of what you should buy.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,618 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Gluggo said:
    " Why is it legal to own counterfeit U.S. coins? "

    Are you a cop?

    Who knows what coins you own to begin with?
    How can it be Illegal if people have NO idea what coins you do own? Especially here on this board, why would you even admit to owning an " Illegal " anything online. After all what you type is a permanent record that can and could be used against you in a court of law or coin board.

    My first question is are you a cop? Just saying don't take this post personal just saying thats all.

    Read the Omega thread and you'll see why I ask.

    So, what you are saying is that when I raped and killed a girl I did nothing illegal since the body was never found?

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,618 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 30, 2018 10:05AM

    @Josh32 said:

    @burfle23 said:
    One last comment about TPG's and counterfeits- ICG actually offers a service to encapsulate counterfeits in their new "Not Genuine" holders; these are useful in counterfeit detection classes where examples are passed around through many hands.

    I think counterfeits are important for this very reason, education. Examples of what NOT to buy are just as important as examples of what you should buy.

    Having a use for a machine gun doesn't make it legal to possess. So, I think it is moot that you find them useful. It would be useful and educational for me to have my chemistry students test samples of cocaine to analyze them for composition and impurities, but that argument won't hold up in court when I'm arrested for possession.

    So, the question remains: legal or illegal?

  • burfle23burfle23 Posts: 2,177 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    So, the question remains: legal or illegal?

    I assume you are fluent on the U.S. Code, Title 18, Part I, Chapter 25, Sections 485 through 492 on "counterfeits". I find it rather difficult reading and confusing, particularly section 485 which starts with “any coin of a denomination higher than 5 cents“.

    I would appreciate being enlightened by your knowledge.

    Jack

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 29, 2018 7:27AM

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @Josh32 said:

    @burfle23 said:
    One last comment about TPG's and counterfeits- ICG actually offers a service to encapsulate counterfeits in their new "Not Genuine" holders; these are useful in counterfeit detection classes where examples are passed around through many hands.

    I think counterfeits are important for this very reason, education. Examples of what NOT to buy are just as important as examples of what you should buy.

    Having a use for a machine gun doesn't make it legal to possess. So, I think it is moot that you find them useful. It would be useful and education for me to have my chemistry students test samples of cocaine to analyze them for composition and impurities, but that argument won't hold up in court when I'm arrested with possession.

    ANA has a waiver for their reference collection making them legal. That waiver does not apply to every individual in the country.

    So, the question remains: legal or illegal?

    IMO, you may wish to confine your examples to something you claim to know about. In this case, chemistry rather than the ability to lawfully own a machine gun. The example of testing the quality of cocaine is good. Perhaps one of your students may end up in a crime lab.

    I'm interested in the ANA waiver you mention. Please tell us more about it! When did they get this waiver? Perhaps the Secret Service was unaware of it or the ANA got the waiver after an altered coin was confiscated from ANACS in the early 70's.

  • CCGGGCCGGG Posts: 1,267 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 29, 2018 10:18AM

    Well, this thread has been so helpful. (not) Wish we could get a clear answer to the questions of the legality of owning/possessing/selling counterfeit coins for the "everyday man or women" (i.e. high level politicians are probably exempt)

  • burfle23burfle23 Posts: 2,177 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 30, 2018 6:47AM

    It is clear in my mind and in the Law as I read it that knowingly selling counterfeits of denominations higher than five cents of actual legal tender coins (not ones demonetized) with intent to defraud is illegal; unfortunately there is grey in the wording which is where lawyers play, but certainly not me.

    Section 490 deals with "minor coins" (one to five cents), but again focuses on "with intent to defraud any person".

    In addition, the Hobby Protection Act concerns "replicas" manufactured after it was instituted in 1973, apparently making many contemporary counterfeits and electrotypes OK without the word "COPY" prominently inscribed. Unfortunately there are many Gallery Mint examples with the word removed and the surfaces "weathered" and sold as genuine, which is clearly illegal in my humble opinion...

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CCGGG said:
    Well, this thread has been so helpful. (not) Wish we could get a clear answer to the questions of the legality of owning/possessing/selling counterfeit coins for the "everyday man or women" (i.e. high level politicians are probably exempt)

    I've heard it's like taking income tax help from the government agents. Several answers to the same question yet all of them will get you prosecuted as a tax cheat! :(

  • CCGGGCCGGG Posts: 1,267 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 29, 2018 11:48AM

    @Insider2 said:

    @CCGGG said:
    Well, this thread has been so helpful. (not) Wish we could get a clear answer to the questions of the legality of owning/possessing/selling counterfeit coins for the "everyday man or women" (i.e. high level politicians are probably exempt)

    I've heard it's like taking income tax help from the government agents. Several answers to the same question yet all of them will get you prosecuted as a tax cheat! :(

    Now that's funny. Just a few years ago you could call the IRS tax help line and get a live person to mislead you. It was easy. Have you tried to talk to a live person in the last year or so? Good luck. Almost all the menu picks will take to a recorded help topic. I had to search on the Internet to find the right key sequence to get to talk to a real person. The menu selections are designed to not be intuitive.

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,118 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 29, 2018 3:26PM

    No court in the U.S. has ever ruled that possession of counterfeits of collectable coins is illegal. What's more, at least two circuit courts have ruled that possession of counterfeit coins without intent to defraud doesn't violate the section of the U.S. Code on counterfeiting U.S. coins. See United States v. Cardillo, 708 F.2d 29 [1983], and United States v. Ratner, 464 F.2d 169 [1972.

    The decline from democracy to tyranny is both a natural and inevitable one.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,618 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @burfle23 said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    So, the question remains: legal or illegal?

    I assume you are fluent on the U.S. Code, Title 18, Part I, Chapter 25, Sections 485 through 492 on "counterfeits". I find it rather difficult reading and confusing, particularly section 485 which starts with “any coin of a denomination higher than 5 cents“.

    I would appreciate being enlightened by your knowledge.

    Jack

    The problem with that section is that it doesn't directly reference the issue of "possession", it seems to refer mostly to production.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,618 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @Josh32 said:

    @burfle23 said:
    One last comment about TPG's and counterfeits- ICG actually offers a service to encapsulate counterfeits in their new "Not Genuine" holders; these are useful in counterfeit detection classes where examples are passed around through many hands.

    I think counterfeits are important for this very reason, education. Examples of what NOT to buy are just as important as examples of what you should buy.

    Having a use for a machine gun doesn't make it legal to possess. So, I think it is moot that you find them useful. It would be useful and education for me to have my chemistry students test samples of cocaine to analyze them for composition and impurities, but that argument won't hold up in court when I'm arrested with possession.

    ANA has a waiver for their reference collection making them legal. That waiver does not apply to every individual in the country.

    So, the question remains: legal or illegal?

    IMO, you may wish to confine your examples to something you claim to know about. In this case, chemistry rather than the ability to lawfully own a machine gun. The example of testing the quality of cocaine is good. Perhaps one of your students may end up in a crime lab.

    I'm interested in the ANA waiver you mention. Please tell us more about it! When did they get this waiver? Perhaps the Secret Service was unaware of it or the ANA got the waiver after an altered coin was confiscated from ANACS in the early 70's.

    I was told, long ago, that ANA was allowed (by the Feds) to keep the reference collection for educational purposes. IF that is not true, then I still don't have a clear answer as to legal or illegal. The Feds clearly know about ANA and do nothing, so that implies legal?

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,618 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 29, 2018 8:22PM

    @burfle23 said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    So, the question remains: legal or illegal?

    I assume you are fluent on the U.S. Code, Title 18, Part I, Chapter 25, Sections 485 through 492 on "counterfeits". I find it rather difficult reading and confusing, particularly section 485 which starts with “any coin of a denomination higher than 5 cents“.

    I would appreciate being enlightened by your knowledge.

    Jack

    I'm really not sure the sarcasm is necessary. I'm the one who posed the question. I don't claim to have the answer, although I lean towards illegal despite all the people on this board who selectively choose legal...except when it's Chinese, then they clearly come down on illegal. Or Dan Carr, where they clearly come down on legal.

    And what of the Hobby Protection Act? The requirement that an item be clearly labeled as "copy" at least suggests that anything not duly labeled "copy" is illegal. No?

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,618 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here is ANACS reserving the right to turn counterfeits over to the Secret Service:

    anacs.com/contentPages/CounterfeitCoins.aspx?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 29, 2018 8:37PM

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @burfle23 said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    So, the question remains: legal or illegal?

    I assume you are fluent on the U.S. Code, Title 18, Part I, Chapter 25, Sections 485 through 492 on "counterfeits". I find it rather difficult reading and confusing, particularly section 485 which starts with “any coin of a denomination higher than 5 cents“.

    I would appreciate being enlightened by your knowledge.

    Jack

    The problem with that section is that it doesn't directly reference the issue of "possession", it seems to refer mostly to production.

    Possession, production, blah, blah, blah. In spite of what the statute "says," AFAIK, no one in government is going around grabbing counterfeits. They are spending time chasing made up accusations and covering each other's butt. :wink:

    PS Please don't forget to tell us about the ANA's waiver to own counterfeits.

    EDIT: Nevermind, I just saw the post. Apparently, you are just passing on a real good story. I was told that the ANA is making counterfeit dies using coins in the museum. What about this one, there is a secret endowment that the ANA uses to ...

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @burfle23 said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    So, the question remains: legal or illegal?

    I assume you are fluent on the U.S. Code, Title 18, Part I, Chapter 25, Sections 485 through 492 on "counterfeits". I find it rather difficult reading and confusing, particularly section 485 which starts with “any coin of a denomination higher than 5 cents“.

    I would appreciate being enlightened by your knowledge.

    Jack

    I'm really not sure the sarcasm is necessary. I'm the one who posed the question. I don't claim to have the answer, although I lean towards illegal despite all the people on this board who selectively choose legal...except when it's Chinese, then they clearly come down on illegal. Or Dan Carr, where they clearly come down on legal.

    And what of the Hobby Protection Act? The requirement that an item be clearly labeled as "copy" at least suggests that anything not duly labeled "copy" is illegal. No?

    There is a big difference between the products of Mr. Carr and those of ALL counterfeiters. If anyone cannot see that immediately, perhaps they know less about the subject than they think.

    As to labeling non-genuine reproductions of US coins, that's the law. It was put in place in order to protect folks who were ignorant about coins, gullible, or just plain greedy. Unfortunately, it was just another of government's futile attempt to protect dummies from ourselves and everything else.

  • A lot of counterfeits are well documented so you could argue that they are sort of like electroplates or marked reproductions. I mean Edward's Copies or Omega Counterfeits or even the Micro-O Morgans have well known and documented identifications.

  • JBKJBK Posts: 14,643 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:
    And what of the Hobby Protection Act? The requirement that an item be clearly labeled as "copy" at least suggests that anything not duly labeled "copy" is illegal. No?

    Laws like this are rarely retroactive.
    So, a fake made before the law was enacted does not need to be marked under that law (It could still be illegal under counterfeiting laws). And. If it can't be proven when the replica was made, then it would have to be assumed it was pre-HPA.

  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CCGGG said:
    Why is PCGS allowed to return counterfeits in body bags (ask me how I know) but if you try to deposit any counterfeit bills at the bank they confiscate them? Are there different laws for coins and notes? Or maybe the same regulations don't apply to PCGS?

    I've also "heard" (but I'm not sure if it's true) that you can sell a counterfeit coin if you tell the buyer it's counterfeit?

    There are no such thing as counterfeits, only coins of "questionable authenticity".

  • burfle23burfle23 Posts: 2,177 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    So, what you are saying is that when I raped and killed a girl I did nothing illegal since the body was never found?

    Having a use for a machine gun doesn't make it legal to possess. So, I think it is moot that you find them useful. It would be useful and education for me to have my chemistry students test samples of cocaine to analyze them for composition and impurities, but that argument won't hold up in court when I'm arrested with possession.

    I'm really not sure the sarcasm is necessary.

    I guess the tone and graphic nature of your collective responses brought the sarcasm out of me. I assumed you were speaking from some basic knowledge of the law.

  • burfle23burfle23 Posts: 2,177 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Boosibri said:

    @CCGGG said:
    Why is PCGS allowed to return counterfeits in body bags (ask me how I know) but if you try to deposit any counterfeit bills at the bank they confiscate them? Are there different laws for coins and notes? Or maybe the same regulations don't apply to PCGS?

    I've also "heard" (but I'm not sure if it's true) that you can sell a counterfeit coin if you tell the buyer it's counterfeit?

    There are no such thing as counterfeits, only coins of "questionable authenticity".

    They do on occasion return them body-bagged as Code 90 "Counterfeit".

  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 30,977 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CCGGG said:
    Why is PCGS allowed to return counterfeits in body bags (ask me how I know) but if you try to deposit any counterfeit bills at the bank they confiscate them? Are there different laws for coins and notes? Or maybe the same regulations don't apply to PCGS?

    I've also "heard" (but I'm not sure if it's true) that you can sell a counterfeit coin if you tell the buyer it's counterfeit?

    It's about intent/deceit. Nobody is going to pay PCGS $30 to determine if a common quarter is genuine before they put it in a coke machine, but depositing currency in your bank account generally implies an intent to spend it.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,618 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BAJJERFAN said:

    @CCGGG said:
    Why is PCGS allowed to return counterfeits in body bags (ask me how I know) but if you try to deposit any counterfeit bills at the bank they confiscate them? Are there different laws for coins and notes? Or maybe the same regulations don't apply to PCGS?

    I've also "heard" (but I'm not sure if it's true) that you can sell a counterfeit coin if you tell the buyer it's counterfeit?

    It's about intent/deceit. Nobody is going to pay PCGS $30 to determine if a common quarter is genuine before they put it in a coke machine, but depositing currency in your bank account generally implies an intent to spend it.

    Actually, I think it is less about intent and more about the difference between currency and coins in the laws.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 30, 2018 10:27AM

    @jmlanzaf posted: Here is ANACS reserving the right to turn counterfeits over to the Secret Service:

    LOL and two thumbs down! I guess everything done by ANACS before 1982 (I worked at ANACS from 1972 until it was moved to CO) is fogged over... I'm not surprised. The folks at ANACS claimed to be the first TPGS too. Thankfully, with the demise of INSAB the actual first TPGS they now truthfully claim to be the "oldest" TPGS.

    Surprise, surprise, now the rest of the story:

    1. "At ANACS, any coin that we believe may be counterfeit or altered may be returned to the customer with a note calling the piece “Questionable Authenticity.” This would mean we are not absolutely certain the coin is a counterfeit, but we believe it is."

    This was always the case.

    1. "If we are absolutely certain that a the coin is a counterfeit or an alteration, pursuant to federal law and in accordance with our legal obligations WE RESERVE THE RIGHT to turn the piece over to the U.S Secret Service."

    This was also ALWAYS the case. It was never done. Only on one occasion did a Secret Service agent come to the office and confiscate a coin. Now think about this. How long do you think ANACS would be in business if they confiscated fakes? LOL. At the time, the Secret Service and the Treasury Dept, were not particularly friendly with each other. I suspect some pressure was put on SS to keep hands off. I also know for a fact that ANACS cut the workload of Treasury Dept authenticators at the Mint's lab down to a trickle - they loved us!

    Perhaps this situation is what caused some person to make up the "story" you were told about some sort of exemption given to ANA. :(

  • FredWeinbergFredWeinberg Posts: 5,714 ✭✭✭✭✭

    ....and if I can correct a 'wrong' about the story
    regarding the 1959 Wheat Reverse Cent:

    The US Mint or the the Treasury NEVER said the coin was genuine;
    it was sent to the BEP, where someone there said it was genuine.

    Someplace I have the paperwork on it, and it's an employee of the
    BEP who wrote an opinion that it was real; his expertise was in currency
    only. So, yes, someone at the BEP did indeed say i was genuine, but
    that person's knowledge about coins was next to xero, apparently.

    Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors
    for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 30, 2018 10:35AM

    ALL counterfeit coins are illegal as are the tools, materials and equipment used to make them. There are no exceptions in U.S. law, other than compliance with the Hobby Protection Act. [Must be an echo in here....]

    This is very simple, very clear stuff.
    :)

  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 30,977 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 30, 2018 10:40AM

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @BAJJERFAN said:

    @CCGGG said:
    Why is PCGS allowed to return counterfeits in body bags (ask me how I know) but if you try to deposit any counterfeit bills at the bank they confiscate them? Are there different laws for coins and notes? Or maybe the same regulations don't apply to PCGS?

    I've also "heard" (but I'm not sure if it's true) that you can sell a counterfeit coin if you tell the buyer it's counterfeit?

    It's about intent/deceit. Nobody is going to pay PCGS $30 to determine if a common quarter is genuine before they put it in a coke machine, but depositing currency in your bank account generally implies an intent to spend it.

    Actually, I think it is less about intent and more about the difference between currency and coins in the laws.

    If you sent PCGS a counterfeit $1 bill, would they return it as such or confiscate it?

    If you walked in on public Friday and submitted a counterfeit $10 bill for authentication, it would be one thing. Using that same $10 to pay for your grading fees would be quite another.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 30, 2018 10:40AM

    @FredWeinberg said:
    ....and if I can correct a 'wrong' about the story
    regarding the 1959 Wheat Reverse Cent:

    The US Mint or the the Treasury NEVER said the coin was genuine;
    it was sent to the BEP, where someone there said it was genuine.

    Someplace I have the paperwork on it, and it's an employee of the
    BEP who wrote an opinion that it was real; his expertise was in currency
    only. So, yes, someone at the BEP did indeed say i was genuine, but
    that person's knowledge about coins was next to xero, apparently.

    And when I get a free hour or two I'll write a part of this embarrassing story that most have never heard as I was there... :(

  • GluggoGluggo Posts: 3,566 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Do we have a legal attorney here to expand?

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