I don't think negative posts should be added to another persons BST posting
lcoopie
Posts: 8,873 ✭✭✭✭✭
unless there is obvious fraud
Its not good manners IMO
LCoopie = Les
14
Comments
This can raise a difficult issue.
If someone posts up a counterfeit for sale without identifying it as some collectable like a contemporary counterfeit, others should jump in immediately. The counterfeit problem has become too big to ignore. At any rate any Chinese counterfeit that is not clearly stamped “COPY” or in some other way marked as not genuine should not be sold PERIOD. The people who try to market these things should NOT get a dime of our money.
Beyond the counterfeit issue, which is settled in my opinion, we come upon the issue of what to do about new collectors and helping them avoid getting ripped off by unscrupulous or ignorant sellers. This is a nasty issue, and it’s one that I wrestle with at my local club.
I hate too see a new collector pay a wildly inflated price for an over grade item. If it is misattributed (for example a seller saying that a Proof Ike dollar is a silver piece when it is a clad coin), I don’t hesitate to jump in. But short of that it’s a tough issue.
One thing we don’t want to do is turn off new collectors because they have been cheated. Getting more people, especially young people is tough these days.
I would like to see what others think.
If you think it's a scam..... PM the listing poster and stay OUT of the BST thread unless they won't answer you.
It's common courtesy to stay out. Just like the "unspoken rule" in a coin shop is to not comment, or interrupt a dealer and customer when they are in the middle of discussion about a coin or a sale.
This is, of course, a general rule. One of the solutions is what topstuf said above.
Pete
It is a tricky thing, discussed elsewhere on the boards with regards to auctions, for example. It really depends on what the issue might be
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
Is it OK for one particular poster to post “Cool” on EVERY BST post? Just checking...
Latin American Collection
That might also be a little "iffy". Especially if the poster has no interest in the coin.
It kinda colors the post in a certain way, IMHOP
Pete
I know what you mean lcoopie and i agree FWIW
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
EVERY?
Then lashes I say
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
I’d say cool being positive is ok but on every posting , that might make the poster seem repetitive. Lol
With slight modification:
"At any rate any Chinese counterfeit that is not clearly stamped “COPY” or in some other way marked as not genuine should not be sold PERIOD."
Kind of reminds me of the guy who lets his dog take a dump in the neighbors yard and just walks away
I'd take it even further: I don't think you should ever comment on a BST thread for any reason.
Rule #1 of the BST, spoken or unspoken, is not to bump your thread more than once a day.
A post as seemingly innocuous as "Nice coin!" , or "Great price" breaks this first rule. It stops the BST forum from being fresh and puts my posts above my fellow posters to their disadvantage. I don't want it and they don't deserve it. It also may make the item I'm selling appear to have offers to those casually scrolling through the BST forum. A BST thread is like a mini virtual coin shop. If it's crowded, you might not even walk in.
Further, these new PCGS forums have a robust alert system. You don't need to post "PM SENT" anymore. Just PM me.
If someone PM's me with an inquiry, an offer, etc., I know within seconds either on my PC or my phone, and often respond that quickly. At best, posting "PM SENT" breaks rule #1 again. At worst, it warns off other potential buyers. And if the "PM SENT" poster PMs me with a lowball offer? You've got my ire, friend. Because I follow rule #1, you leave me unable to undo the damage your "PM SENT" lowball offer does to my post for the next 24 hours. And that is totally uncool.
Don't get me wrong: I love buying and selling on the BST forum. The whole process is a blast and keeps me interested in our hobby. I love getting offers--even lowball offers. I like horse trading. I like offering strange and unusual pieces to anyone who shares my passion. So message me. Don't post in my thread. I wish there was a way to lock BST threads or an ability to delete unwanted posts on your own BST threads.
If you have legitimate beef about my or any other BST thread: Take it to the main forum. That's where discussions should take place. Beefing on the BST forum breaks rule #1. Over and over again.
--Severian the Lame
If there is fraud or misrepresentation that mandates action, notify the moderator.
I recently went to a dealer's indoor flea market shop and 95% of the material was either overpriced, problem, or borderline collectible, I choose to keep my mouth closed unless another collector there needs help. I try hard not to be rude usually, but it can be hard to know when to speak and when to stay silent. Let people list stuff on bst, I have yet to sell on that site unless they saw the link that brought them to ebay. Ebay is a tough marketplace.
"Dreck" scares people away.
Well I'm guilty of "PM Sent", won't happen again, my apologies.
POST NUBILA PHOEBUS / AFTER CLOUDS, SUN
Love for Music / Collector of Dreck
Absoulutly agree with @RogerB say a person buys a coin to sell. Then they list it here or on the net. Perhaps others calling it for what it is allows the person with the counterfeit to get a refund. If I buy something and it turns out to be fake. I would not sell it off to the next person. You take the hit, learn and move forward. It happens most understand if you fix your miss listing. If you don’t our job on the forum is to have each other’s back. Correct?
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
Good point about PM Sent, Weiss.
The BST is a great sales venue. As such, it should be treated with respect. Unnecessary commentary should be avoided.... treat it like a dealer's website....offers or questions should be private. I like the BST and have had good transactions there. The PM function is excellent for offers, questions and other dialogue. Cheers, RickO
PM sent
Nice thread!
Thread bumping (for oneself or a buddy) seems far less meaningful than it once was...
You were lucky if your post stayed on page one for 15 minutes on a busy Saturday a few years ago...:)
In addition to counterfeits, I think coins with known questionable origins, such as Orlando toning, should be identified.
There is common courtesy to sellers and there is common courtesy to buyers. Both should exist.
I don't believe in talking down someone else's coin or critiquing their price, and it puzzles me to see the same small handful of members post "Cool!" or "Wow" dozens of times in thread after thread, but I am also not as strident as Weiss is on the topic, either.
On occasion I will type something that I think might be useful and positive for folks to know such as "this is a deceptively difficult issue to find in this grade range" or "that's really wonderful toning that looks like it came from an original set". I will also infrequently post an unsolicited character reference for a seller on the BST who might not be that active on the boards, but whom I might know quite well off the boards and whom I may trust wholeheartedly. In those cases I will write something like "member x doesn't post much on the boards, but I know him quite well and have had many flawless transactions with him" or the like.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Don't understand the point of "PM sent". Is there one?
The pardon is for tyrants. They like to declare pardons on holidays, such as the birthday of the dictator, or Christ, or the Revolution. Dictators should be encouraged to keep it up. And we should be encouraged to remember that the promiscuous dispensation of clemency is not a sign of political liberality. It is instead one of those valuable, identifying marks of tyranny.
Charles Krauthammer
Is it okay to post "I'll take it." or "Consider it sold."?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
PM sent
Honestly? No.
Even if you are agreeing to pay full price, with the stipulated payment method, the right timing, the agreed upon ship method, and return privileges--any one of which could put the kibosh on the sale and make your post effectively block another buyer--you might be the 3rd or 4th or 10th person to contact me about this item.
Though well-intentioned, your post hasn't done anything but complicate the process and bump my listing at the expense of my fellow board member's listings.
Just send me a message. Let's handle the specifics in private, off the Forum, in a way that doesn't inconvenience anybody else. That's all I'm saying.
--Severian the Lame
If I see some cool stuff or respect the seller I'll hit the Like button only.
A while ago i started a thread asking about the whole 'PM sent' subject because I'm not comfortable with it. Opinions were all over the place iirc.
Since the rules aren't stickied to the top anymore and SM is now absent and not on patrol, some forum self policing is needed when people start posting multiple separate threads and are bumping at will.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
In one word, NO.
It's bad form to come between seller and potential buyer.
Re: Pm sent. I am neither for or against it. I see it as someone pretty much saying "I'm interested / it's MINE". It gets tricky when you see one or more PM sent posts on a listing, and the item(s) are still available, even being subsequently bumped. What could possibly hold up a deal?
The BST should be limited to buying, selling and trading unless the goods or the seller are known counterfeits.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
Guilty as charged Weiss. It won't happen again and I thank you for posting the etiquette rules. As regards being watchdogs, I like buying from the boards because one has some public recourse if a deal go's sour. I tend to feel more trust to those who have a history on the board. My only excuse for posting on the thread is " just plain ignorance on my part"
Bob Sr CEO Fieldtechs
To be clear: I'm not calling anybody out. If anything, this is just my opinion of the way I'd like to see the bst forum work. I'm certainly open to counter arguments, and I don't expect everyone to live by my ideals.
--Severian the Lame
First, purely negative posts shouldn't be done there.
That said, there are valid times for people to help out or post caution. No one likes to be taken (buying or selling) and no one "deserves" to have to pay tuition the hard way.
This topic comes up every now and then and there are always people whining about the same thing. Yes, whining.
There are valid responses and then there are those that ..... well.... I've already said it.
As for comparing the BST, and comments therein, to a coin shop and commenting there, that is apples and oranges.
In the coin shop, the owner is paying for the place, the utilities, the time/employees, etc. That should be respected.
Here, there should be respect, but they aren't comparable as the people using the BST aren't the ones paying for the website or resources to have it up and running. PCGS/CU is.
And, I'll continue to be blunt on this......there are times I see NO problem with commenting on a BST thread, even if I am not buying. For instance, I bought something from a new member a few years back. He was completely new here. He worked with me to make sure we had a good transaction. Next time he posted, he still didn't have a lot of posts, but I let folks know that I had already transacted with him and it worked out. I respected how he handled our deal and felt he deserved that I speak up.
I'll continue to do stuff like that.
While I won't play the "PM sent" game, even if I send a PM, I also don't go with the whole "say nothing". There ARE appropriate times and appropriate things, imho.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
What if the coin is raw and obviously cleaned or artificially toned and the seller makes no mention of it in his listing? Is it wrong to comment on this to save a new collector from being ripped off?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I'd like to think these forums aren't here to rip new collectors. We should be better than that.
The PNG has a good clause in their Code of Ethics:
https://pngdealers.org/code-of-ethics/
i wouldn't rain on another sellers bst post in this situation as the dangers of raw coin sales are well know, if interested in purchase then a PM would be appropriate.
Ain’t no skin off my nose.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Perry Hall is a friend, someone with whom I've completed several successful transactions, so I know I can say this without fear of being misunderstood. But what makes you--someone who hasn't seen the coin in-hand--a better judge of the coin than I, someone who is actually looking at the coin as I type? Why does your opinion, someone who has zero interest in the coin, matter as much or even more than my opinion? Especially if nobody asked for your opinion?
Even if you're right, what makes you think I haven't already priced the coin to reflect it?
Maybe it has issues, maybe I've already priced that into what I'm asking. Maybe in your part of the country the coin is a dog and wouldn't sell. Your dealer has 5 better examples for less money. But maybe where I am, and where my potential buyer is, this piece is rare as hen's teeth. Yet you are a credible judge on all coins in all grades in all locations in the country or even the world?
So there is still no way in the world you would buy the piece. Don't buy it. But someone who doesn't have your resources really needs an affordable example, and this is exactly what they've been looking for. Yet you feel the need to espouse your opinion in a thread you didn't start on a forum not designed for rebuttal, on a coin you've never actually seen in person. Who made you the Buy, Sell, Trade forum police? And what recourse do I have as the seller if you trash my piece but you're flat out wrong?
Of course there are extreme examples that may warrant a post. An obvious fake of a key date being offered for big money. Though you could just as easily flag the post and start a thread in the general discussion forum where others could comment (and learn) all the while not bumping or cluttering up the BST forum at the expense of others posters in that non-discussion forum.
--Severian the Lame
Perry mentions "obviously" so that is a bar set for the discussion here.
The PNG thinks disclosure is important enough to put in their Code of Ethics. I'm curious about the thoughts for the BST. Should there be a BST Code of Ethics? If there is no disclosure on the BST, this may be important enough to highlight PNG affiliation in the BST.
Generally, if there are problems with the coin, should the seller disclose them or not on the BST? What are reasons for non-disclosure? Most of us have paid tuition. Do we want others to pay tuition here when they could have been warned?
"PM Sent" is often a tactic used by some to discourage further interest.
VERY common to see on gun auctions.
When it is not your business, ...
The KEY is in “your”.
This doesn’t mean to “butt out”. It merely implies that it is not “mine”.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Thanks for mentioning the desire to protect new collectors from getting ripped off Bill. Collectors mention paying a lot of tuition into the hobby which can discourage people. It is a difficult issue, as you say, so I'm curious what you and your club do in the difficult situations if the coin isn't a counterfeit or misattributed.
PCGS should require ALL posters on BST to agree to REFUND any money paid for a counterfeit.
Easy to do electronically.
Good thread...:)
BST is an incredible rescource and it's great to see it's continuing stewardship happening in threads like these.
My feelings tend to align with Tom B's and Bochiman's...there is a difference between wholesale thread bumping and the occasional , well deserved and helpful comment...and if that comment happens to temporarily pop the posting back up then so be it