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Counterfeit 1877 Indian Cent
EagleEye
Posts: 7,677 ✭✭✭✭✭
This is a known counterfeit and is featured in my book. Another one came into my shop today for authentication. The coin in the book has a medal turn, like Canada's coins. This one has a coin turn.
The tell is the bold N and clash marks on the inside of the right wreath. It was said to be purchased in the late 1950's. I would guess these came out in the mid-1960's regardless of the memory of the owner.
Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
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Thanks Rick... Good information and great pictures to see the tells... Cheers, RickO
thanks for the useful info. eagle eye.
It looks as if someone tried to carve down the "N" to look more like a legit '77 but failed miserably.
Pete
Louis Armstrong
Great post, thanks!
bob
If you disregard the N it looks pretty good.
The N seems like an easy tell. Rest of the coin is quite good.
Latin American Collection
Makes you kinda think how easy a person can get took for big money.
Clash marks are present on the inside of the right wreath on many genuine 1877's. But those on the OP coin are not quite right. So it isn't the presence of the clashing it's that the clashes are wrong.
Have I got that right?
Lance.
No, there are only clash marks above the O in ONE on genuine examples.
Any idea just how many of this fake are out there? I hate to think of how many collectors have an example of this in their album today. Dating it to the late 1960's is probably correct. I seem to recall them being discussed at about that time.
I have one similar to this I got in the early 80's. I bought it in a set from a dealer/family friend who then refused to make good on it. I didn't press charges, today I would.
Thanks for sharing. These are good enough fakes to fool a lot of beginners.
On a less serious note, is that an Omega I see between the feathers of the headdress?
(Don't look too hard, I'm just kidding).
Funny! I have a gold Omega watch guess I need to check it further:)
If there is one thing I can't stand, it's a sloppy counterfeiter...
coin turn boys, I now youse were out drinking last night to spend them, but coin turn....
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
The second 7 in the date looks a little funny, also................
Pete
Yes, Rick please comment on the 2nd "7"
I knew it would happen.
Wow -- the tells aside, the overall quality of manufacture looks impressive. Better rims & surfaces than the numerous more recent Chinese fakes.
Do these have a collector following?
There aren't clash marks, Rick? You're the expert so I don't mean to question you. I just always thought they were. I see many 1877's with these same marks on Coinfacts.
Lance.
Yes, I think so.
Could be a badly worn set up die? Looks legit with some "counterfeiting" issues to it.
Great thread. Thanks for the information. Very educational. Great questions by @lkeigwin. Can't wait to hear the answers.
The one with the clash inside the wreath must be a very late die state. There are very early die states without any clash marks as well. There is only one reverse die for all MS 1877 Indians. It is a Shallow N die, although proofs have a Bold N die. None have the clash like the counterfeit. The clash from the nose -though the C in CENT is a better diagnostic of the fake die.
So how was this fake produced? Die struck?
It does not look like it was cast.
As I look at the last "7" of the date, I wonder if it doesn't look a bit funky?
Pete
Louis Armstrong
EDIT: Last night, surprised as I was, I left what some will regard as an uncharitable comment toward Mr. Snow as I explained this disagreement with his opinion here. I need to remember that this forum is not a place to have friendly banter (as it would be in an authentication class) with a fellow collector as many will not understand the questioning of an expert with Mr. Snow's credentials.
Rick is the expert but he has misspoken. Note that he has corrected the record further down the thread and both of these statements by him are true: **The one with the CLASH INSIDE THE WREATH must be a very late die state. There are very early die states without any clash marks as well.
Now, I'll add FORGET THE DIE STATE part of this quote. Just know for 100% that VERY MANY genuine 1877 cents have the clash next to the wreath and in my limited experience compared to his - possibly even more than have the clash over the "O!"
BTW, the clash on the reverse is one of the minor diagnostics taught in authentication classes. As for the shape of the "7," my opinion is the counterfeiter altered an 187 (X) coin by adding the final digit and then transferred that to a die. The fool did not do his homework and had to deface the strong "N" from the reverse of the struck coin. On genuine 1877 cents, the final "7" is different from the first - mainly the flag is thicker.
Bonanno?
I get these bold N counterfeits removed from eBay all the time. There is a ton of them out there.
Except for the Proof coins. They have the bold "N."
I have a huge assortment of Counterfeit Indian cents which I use in my class at the ANA Summer Seminar. Some are pictured in my book. This particular 1877 is not represented in my box. Don't confuse it with altered dates or China pieces. This is not your typical fake.
Rick I was just looking at your second edition, 1870-1889
on page 76 where it shows the rotated rev counterfeit and
I believe the rev. of that coin is the same as the rev. shown
in this thread. It has the same clashes right of ONE and the
same clash through the "C" in CENT.
R.I.P. Bear
I agree.
One of the best fakes that I have seen.
It looks to me like the lines on the two leaves nearest the rim at 7:00 on the reverse are wrong, too straight and bold compared to authentic?
Successful BST deals with mustangt and jesbroken. Now EVERYTHING is for sale.
As long as you are disregarding both of the "E"s on the reverse also, I agree.
Except for the toning.
Yes, The same counterfeit. Only the rotation on this one is correct.