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What is the grade on this 1793 Chain?
JOsborne
Posts: 115 ✭✭✭
This is what drives me nuts about this business. Is this AU50, AU55, MS63 or something in between? Oh and the CAC label just makes it more unclear. Send help.
2
JOsborne
Posts: 115 ✭✭✭
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Can't tell from the photo. Nice except for the marks.
Well, like all coins, it doesn’t really have a grade. Certain fellows see it at 63, others at 50, and some others at 55. Each has his reasons for thinking so. Since there is no real standard, one isn’t more correct than the next. The assessment that it is somewhere around the 8th finest extant example is more important than the numerical grade, at least to me. In any case, it would look ridiculously out of place in my type set.
I would have guessed the surfaces had been enhanced (tooled) so goes to show how little I know about these early coppers.
peacockcoins
The PCGS grade is the 'commercial' grade, assigned by a highly respectable TPG, and CAC agrees with this commercial grade. And this is what most relevant pricing is based on.
The EAC grade of 55 is their assessed 'net' grade of the coin, considering the technical grade, then deducting points for any flaws and defects. Yes, the EAC grade is generally lower than the commercial grade, but don't expect lower prices! The EAC guys price their coins at the commercial retail grade levels.
Yes it's confusing, but both seem to be able to co-exist.
Temporary marks as Miss Liberty was just wearing tight sunglasses all day
They all seem to agree that it's a consensus top 7-8 coin as Bryce stated. That's how I would value it
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
The finger that points to the moon is not the moon.
I like it a bunch except for the gash across Liberty's temple and hair. It is no doubt net graded at 63. It would likely grade higher otherwise. Certainly among the top coins in condition.
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Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
If it's graded by TPG use greysheet,trends etc,,,,If it's graded by EAC pull out CQR.
Don't ya love it when a EAC guy tries to buy at greysheet by EAC grading standards?
The big scratch takes it out of the MS-63 grade. Forget the fact that it appears to have a rub in the center of the obverse.
I can't put a grade on it...but I can say it's a nice coin.
Has anybody noticed HA now has a virtual reality view mode? I don't remember seeing this previously. Do they just do this for the big money stuff.
I put on my headset and its pretty cool to see it so huge and at every angle, but every little flaw is also visible. I knew this was coming, pretty soon we will have a virtual bourse floor with dealers cases that you can explore. Good? Bad?
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Is that a very large scratch behind the eye? If yes, how can this coin get beaned?
That coin has not been Unc in two hundred years! My guess is the EAC guys will net grade it down to an XF MAX!
I don't know where this came from in the description: "Our EAC grade AU55." Is this the "our Heritage EAC guy?" I say nuts! While AU-55 may be closer to the actual condition of preservation than Unc., the damage should "net" it down if those copper guys wish to be straight with us.
My blind grandmother can see the change of color on the high points = circulated!
This BS is and will ALWAYS be the problem with commercial grading. As long as folks try to place a value on a coin with a grade, insanity rules. This is also the major cause of "gradeflation" an attempt to catch up to increasing coin values by blowing up any previous standards!
Grade the coin based on its condition of preservation, enumerate its problems, and let the market price it at $$$$$. That way, a unique 1870-S Half dime will always be graded XF+ even though much of its patina was removed since it was discovered in the 1970's and then only its price will increase - not its grade!
LoL, then what's the point of "Grading" it at all?? You can just as easily call it "Fred" and Let the Market Price it," if the Grade has no bearing on the Value.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
I’d vote AU55. Love this Chain, but I must say the gash is a bit prominent.
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I remember that Chain Cents were overgraded at PCGS even when I started collecting coins in 1998. One of my first coins was a PCGS AU 55 Chain Cent, I paid even back then for the coin 50.000 USD, and it was really XF only. This coin here has wear and it should be graded AU 55, but the 63 grade fits into the 20 years history of PCGS Chain Cent gradings. I grade the coin AU 55, but I agree with PCGS based on how they graded Chain Cents all along, they should call it a 63, maybe a 62 because of the scratch.
But its really AU as it has wear. Thats no weakness in the strike or whatever, its wear.
Love the reverse (which I assume is pretty important for a chain cent!). I am not going to pretend that I know how to grade 18th century copper but it is a great example. If EAC says 55, I wonder how many uncirculated chain cents exist by EAC standards.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
I think the Chain cent was originally struck to give a new nation something to shim tables up.
If that were a common coin, say a Braided Hair large cent, it would probably be "AU Details, Damaged."
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Unfortunately the grade assigned will have large impact upon the price. This coin is over graded by at least 2 points. That scratch on the obverse is significant because it quite possible to find an attractive Chain Cent that does not have that defect. I've seen them in AU-55 holders.
Currently many people view the CAC sticker as a sign in infallibility. Those of us who concentrate on the coin and not the sticker know that is an unwarranted assumption which is becoming more and more evident as CAC has allowed their standards to slip.
Liberty has just had a rough day listening to a Maxell cassette tape recording of a Hayden quartet!
I like it.
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That is a handsome coin, despite the scratch. I believe the EAC, AU grade to be appropriate.
CONGRATULATIONS! Finally you are beginning to see the light. And get ready as this coin is going to be posted on my Net grade thread in the hope that some EAC guys wish to discuss why it is graded AU-55 and not lower (XF) due to a very detracting "ding."
Now, you asked: "...then what's the point of "Grading" it at all?" You are correct! We can call the coin Fred and knowledgeable folks can still value it! It does not matter at all about the "plastic grading crutch it is in."
As you know, many moons ago, grading was just a way to describe a coin's condition. There were much fewer grades and grading was very unsophisticated. The general collector and dealer base was uninformed. At the time chaos reigned. No one broke grading down to eye appeal, number, size, and location, of marks, luster, etc. as we do today. Somehow, we survived. Damaged coins were priced lower than undamaged coins. I never in my life ever heard two dealers discuss a coin's grade during a transaction! Knowledgeable folks (both dealers and collectors) put their personal value on a coin - Just as they do today! LOL indeed, "Fred" is going to be worth what it sells for!
As grading became more sophisticated, Sheldon produced a very detailed description of the different grades for coins that IMO, surpassed the description in the contemporary guides with line drawings. He also considered his scale as a way to put a reasonable value on copper cents. Sheldon did not Net Grade! That nonsense came much later. As time passed, price guides came into use and grading became more sophisticated.
An ignorant clown came along in the 1970's and gave coin grading some thought. He reasoned that the perfect grading system should be very simple to teach, learn and understand. Additionally, the grade assigned to a coin should never change over time as long as the coin remained in the same condition. Finally, the rarity, coin type, age, ownership, value, market conditions, or whatever should have absolutely no bearing on its condition of preservation from the time it was struck! He called it "technical grading."
This system does not work for coin dealers who's customers have been advised to buy the best condition. Note how dealers wish to keep coin grading a very complicated dark secret. Now a particular coin is graded differently due to its date, mint, and value. We have several TPGS and "sticker" services to rate their opinion. Thus, coins can have several different grades from XF (realistic net grade (?) for the cent) to MS for that Chain cent and everyone is correct! Oh my, when VALUE is introduced into the grade, it's not so simple is it?
Try to explain to a novice why an MS-62 1884-S dollar in the same condition (just a touch of cabinet friction) as an MS-62 1884-P is ONLY GRADED AU! While he has no idea of the value of either coin, with proper instruction, he can tell you why both are MS-62's according to the standards.
If it had a higher population it would be just like all the others. Sorry but not feeling it for the price. Just saying. It does however tell truths about keeping us chained how ironic.
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I don’t agree with this idea that we don’t need to grade coins at all. If you can’t grade coins, you can’t price them accurately. If you don’t grade coins there is no way to establish condition census information for the finest known examples, which is a very important and interesting piece of information for many collectors.
Many years ago, in the 1970s, there was a well known dealer who never graded anything; he just priced it. I looked his inventory at the big New York City shows a number of times but never bought anything. The trouble was I felt that he used this marketing strategy to put something over on people. Rightly or wrongly, that’s what I thought.
I remember that he had a really nice looking 1828 half cent which seemed to be at an attractive price. It was Mint State with some red, BUT when I really looked it, I saw a partially hidden scratch that really killed the coin for me. Today that coin would get a “details grade.”
In the 1970s and early 1980s, the best dealers graded their coins and mentioned the problems on the holder. That was the right way to do business. The shady guys did the best they could to hide problems with fancy holders, artificial toning, whizzing or in one case I spotted, simulating adjustment marks to hide the fact that an initial had been carved into the piece.
Grading has a very good purpose. The trouble is it has become too much of a moving target to satisfy the needs of some business plans.
This has to be a fluke.
I can not see JA allowing a bean on this one, just can't see it, and agreed if that is the case here than totally not deserving.
Liberty looks "in a fright" about being graded!
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
Fred 45 or 55?
The formula appears to be: If pre 1800, and AU, add 4 points.
Bill, I agree with your post and I don't think that is a contradiction to my post above. My rant is about separating the two, price and grade. Many of us can grade coins fairly accurately yet speaking for myself, I have virtually no idea of its value w/o consulting several price guides and we all know how useless they are in the real world. Let's stick with the Large cent I'll bet very few here can hit the price it sells for within $100. Probably not within $500 either.
Grading does have a purpose. It was a way two people could describe what their coins look like before cell phones, the Internet, and beautiful color auction catalogues. Now, it provides a level of protection (when a coin is graded accurately and not net graded).
After seeing the current bid..................I have no business grading this coin
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@Insider2 re: the rant you referenced. I'm curious, how much longer will your strident rant continue? For whom is it directed to? Do you expect that the TPG's will be influenced by your posts here? Is there a cease fire anticipated? Inquiring minds want to know.....
C'est la vie.
@Catbert asked: "I'm curious, how much longer will your strident rant continue? For whom is it directed to? Do you expect that the TPG's will be influenced by your posts here? Is there a cease fire anticipated? Inquiring minds want to know.....
"
Think of it this way. There is "Theory" and "Practice." "Classroom" and "Real World." "Technical" grade and "Commercial" grade. In another thread, @ColonelJessup used just two much better words to summarize all that but I cannot remember them.
Before we can run with the big boys, we need to walk and before that we need to be able stand up. That's what experience and study do for us. I'll remind you that experience measured by "time-in" is not always the best or sufficient.
I've been very lucky to get into coins long before there were grading services. That way I could observe "first hand" how we got to where we are today and along the way I had some excellent teachers to help me first stand up and than walk. One of them was that "clown" who thought up the technical grading system. What I learned was that by separating all the variables that make up a coin's grade and by learning the evolution of the basics, it was the quickest way to turn novices into fast walkers.
I have written before that EAC is going to continue to Net grade. AU coins like that Large cent will continue to be graded Mint State. The deterioration of old standards, Gradeflation, and changes to how we grade (decimals?) will continue to evolve. So what. I don't have a whisker of a chance to change anything and I really don't wish to. Well, that's not entirely true, there are some things I wish I could change - like your opinion of my posts.
My rants are posted to present "the other side" with logical arguments that are obvious to me. I hate it when someone says a coin is original when anyone can see the hole through it.
IN MY IDEAL WORLD, everyone would grade that large cent exactly the same **based on the details of its design remaining and taking its strike into consideration. Then the detracting mark would be noted. DONE. IMO, based on classroom experiences, most novices could grade that coin correctly on the final exam by using photographic guides and Internet images. Let the professionals do the only hard part and decide how much it is worth!
@insider2 - Your enunciation of Forum Esperanto is exquisite
How would one say "Pissing on the heads of giants without realizing they're standing on their shoulders"?
Como se dice "curmudgeon"?
Great thread..... Though I would like to add my opinion..... A copper cent from 1793 is a treasure in any form... sure, the degree of preservation is important to the seller/buyer and used to determine price. That being said, to me, a coin such as that - even with the ding on the obverse - is an amazing piece of our history. I have long looked for one of those in some of the old mountain cellar holes around here... no luck so far. If I do find one, however, it will not go on the market. Cheers, RickO
Nice coin. scratch or not, AU58 would be my grade.
Everybody sees the old scratch. No one is not seeing it, missing it or ignoring it. What PCGS is obviously saying is that this 200+ year old issue is getting a pass for a scratch like this. That train left the station long ago. They obviously made a conscious decision on how to handle this coin what grade to dispense. They grade chain cents differently then Walkers or Barbers and in my opinion rightfully so. No one here has to agree with it or like it but it is what it is.
At the end of the day this piece is likely the 7th finest concensus piece whether using EAC or PCGS standards. Same same. The CAC sticker literally means JA would consider buying this piece at the 63 PCGS grade level.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
A couple of years ago Harry Laibstain had an S-3 Chain Cent in an AU-55 holder for $155,000. It was a wonderful piece with no significant marks, just a little wear. I'd take that coin over this one. The op piece is an S-2, which is the scarcest collectable Chain Cent variety, but to most collectors that would not be a huge selling point. The point is I've seen pieces for less money that would be more pleasing to me. Whatever attraction there is to buying registry points is not part of my collecting plans.
For sure the registry game can mess with ones head, eyes and influence personal tastes if you let it.
For the record I kind of dig the old scratch on the OP coin. It gives it a certain amount of added character like a old scar. This coin is great
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
No one can argue with your 11:40 AM post! That said, please show us one of the coins presently in your collection with this much "added character"
When I want character, I'll look for a heavily corroded ancient coin!
I don't have anything remotely similar in "added " character but I would welcome in the OP coin into my stable seven days a week and twice on Sunday's.
As far as character In a different vein I do like this in my box of mayhem
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I have, no surprise, a number of early US coins with Character, including some with scratches (many of which are Test Mark scratches from when the coins were new and unfamiliar in circulation)
What hasn't been mentioned much, (i will go back and read again and check after this post) is the Surfaces of this chain cent are far above average for the type, neither corroded nor cleaned, with ample luster.
The surfaces are so nice that experts opine 63 level net of the scratch and rub, and back the opinion with cash.
The peanut gallery may pooh pooh, and nay say, but Let's See YOUR Example
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Look at the slab photos. I call it unc 100%. The pitting is from corrosion but its obviously not enough that it wont grade. The scratch I agree looks distracting but my initial grade thought was ms62-ms63
Agree, this is why the coin is graded so high in spite of the wear and "added character:"
@Bailey posted that the surfaces of this chain cent are far above average for the type, neither corroded nor cleaned, with ample luster. I'll add including Flowing Hair cents and I
tried very hard to find something on it that was missed!
All that is true. I say price the coin for what it is worth for what it is; yet don't "fudge" its grade to justify that price and confuse any novice who has not learned how this game is played.
I know that you have handled many more chain cents than I have, but the only weakness is on the obverse in the center which implies to me that this is strike weakness and not wear. The cheek and highest points of hair are full and strong. Why do you say AU?
@privaterarecoincollector is 100% correct. Learn from him. Look at the flat spot over the ear and follow that DARK COLOR down the hair. Color is one of the most important "clues" we have when grading a coin. Color changes on the high spots of a coin usually signify two things, friction wear or strike weakness. Areas on a coin that are weakly struck still have luster (it's called flat strike luster by one grading instructor) - it just does not have exactly the same appearance and color as the area of a coin (with the usual mint luster we think of) that came into contact with the die face. The other change of color AS SEEN ON THIS COIN is due to friction wear, cabinet friction, rub, circulation, mishandling, abrasion, on-and-on. Copper coins go from brown to dark brown. This coin is an AU that is in a very attractive and rare condition that is going to sell for a lot of money.
When we deal with Brasher doubloons, 1804 Dollars, 1870-S Half dimes, High Relief Twenties and coins such as this, although most are not original and are no longer Mint State, we all wink, and pay the freight because their "technical grade" means nothing.