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What is going on with this high relief on Great collections?

joebb21joebb21 Posts: 4,732 ✭✭✭✭✭
may the fonz be with you...always...

Comments

  • logger7logger7 Posts: 8,011 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It sure doesn't look Unc. to me, let alone worth 64 money. Could be a hefty reserve is in place?

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't see anything special about it.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,060 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I didn't think GC even accepted ICG coins. I wouldn't pay super strong money for it.

  • msch1manmsch1man Posts: 809 ✭✭✭✭

    Maybe someone is banking on it going 58+ for an everyman set?

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    IMO, the coin is an AU and not even close to Unc. Some ignorant collector or shill is "chasing it." There is absolutely nothing special about it!

  • CryptoCrypto Posts: 3,368 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Might be too bright to even grade at PCGS, I have no idea but good on Ian

  • goldengolden Posts: 9,017 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think that someone is going to be buried.

  • specialistspecialist Posts: 956 ✭✭✭✭✭

    there are a few big cheese local dealers who may have seen it and think it can be a 64 possibly. you can't tell by the image

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @specialist said:
    there are a few big cheese local dealers who may have seen it and think it can be a 64 possibly. you can't tell by the image

    I can tell by the image that it isn't even Uncirculated. Just not sure what bad things have been done to it.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,647 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Maybe you sold it last week for 1/3 of that price... that might explain it. Lol.

    Wondercoin.

    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • logger7logger7 Posts: 8,011 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 19, 2017 7:28PM

    Why would a $10K plus coin be sent to ICG? Reminds me a little of a raw HR I once bought from a dealer as a no problem coin Unc. that came back as a cleaned coin that I returned.

  • JustacommemanJustacommeman Posts: 22,847 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 19, 2017 8:03PM

    That really is PCGS 64 non CAC money

    mark

    Walker Proof Digital Album
    Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,060 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @logger7 said:
    Why would a $10K plus coin be sent to ICG?

    Because PCGS wouldn't touch it without a details grade (maybe).

  • BruceSBruceS Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't see it either. Looks like AU details at best. Maybe we are missing, something but I doubt it.


    eBay ID-bruceshort978
    Successful BST:here and ATS, bumanchu, wdrob, hashtag, KeeNoooo, mikej61, Yonico, Meltdown, BAJJERFAN, Excaliber, lordmarcovan, cucamongacoin, robkool, bradyc, tonedcointrader, mumu, Windycity, astrotrain, tizofthe, overdate, rwyarmch, mkman123, Timbuk3,GBurger717, airplanenut, coinkid855 ,illini420, michaeldixon, Weiss, Morpheus, Deepcoin, Collectorcoins, AUandAG, D.Schwager.
  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 19, 2017 9:57PM

    @logger7 said: "Why would a $10K plus coin be sent to ICG? Reminds me a little of a raw HR I once bought from a dealer as a no problem coin Unc. that came back as a cleaned coin that I returned. "

    There are many reasons ICG and ANACS receive coins valued over 10K. They just don't get anywhere near the number of those coins as the top two services. Writing about the reasons this is so would only bore me more than your uninformed addition to this thread. :*

    @specialist said: "There are a few big cheese local dealers who may have seen it and think it can be a 64 possibly. you can't tell by the image."

    Surely, you can see the friction wear all over the high points of the design. That coin is closer to an AU-50 than an MS-60. Do you know @logger7?

  • GluggoGluggo Posts: 3,566 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I see a $4000.00 Buyers Fee! Holy Sh#t.

  • davewesendavewesen Posts: 5,758 ✭✭✭✭✭

    2 bidders felt it could be ultra high relief?

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That is a very high price for that coin.... I see no justification for such a price, and many reasons against it. I wonder if there were some bidders with bourbon bottles by the computers.... Cheers, RickO

  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 20, 2017 9:05AM

    No other bidders were over $5,007 on this coin. Just the 2 "refuse to lose" bidders. No clue if there's something hidden on this one. Odds would favor one mistakenly entered a "mistake" nuclear bid. The winner entered their max bid 4 days earlier at the $5,000 level! That's confidence! The under-bidder showed up on Saturday (1 day early) and systematically tried to uncover the bid in a 3 min span. That's persistence! They jacked it from $5K to $30K. Something tells me this one gets returned and shows up again.

    https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/514485/1907-Saint-Gaudens-Gold-Double-Eagle-MCMVII-High-Relief-Wire-Edge-ICG-MS-64

    That's an ICG MS64 that sold on GC for $20K just a few weeks ago.

    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • looks like shill bidding from a consignor to me...

  • logger7logger7 Posts: 8,011 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I've never figured out what is market acceptable toning in HR Saints, most of them have little in the way of cartwheel luster like the later counterparts.

  • CommemDudeCommemDude Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I very much like Great Collections' business model and customer service and have bought coins in their auctions. While it would be completely unorthodox, I am hoping that Ian will step up and explain this transaction once he knows the facts.

    Dr Mikey
    Commems and Early Type
  • johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 27,409 ✭✭✭✭✭

    pass, not for me. just saying

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 20, 2017 12:16PM

    Sold for $30,137.62 with BF.

    @NebuchadnezzarTheGreat said:
    looks like shill bidding from a consignor to me...

    Does GC check for and eliminate shill bidders?

  • logger7logger7 Posts: 8,011 ✭✭✭✭✭

    With Teletrade you could bid on your own stuff but would pay a hefty premium if you ended up being the high bidder, seems only fair. Only Teletrade would let the terms be flexible to please some customers. As an aside, I was looking at some of the "Shark Tank" great deals that fell apart for various reasons, it doesn't look like the sharks sued for breach of contract.

  • BuffaloIronTailBuffaloIronTail Posts: 7,400 ✭✭✭✭✭

    ...................A VERY costly game of "my bids bigger than yours".

    Pete

    "I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,427 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Gluggo said:
    I see a $4000.00 Buyers Fee! Holy Sh#t.

    Yea. Pretty soon the buyers' fee will be equal to the value of the lot.

    Maybe High Relief $20 gold coins are rare in ICG holders. That must be it. :p

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I've been researching $20 HR for decades. Now you got me curious Bill...LOL. As of the last FUN show, I found out they have no EXHR in their system. I shall see if I can find out tomorrow about the regular HR's.

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,060 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There is no way that is a shill bid. Who would shill it up to 64 money?

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:
    I've been researching $20 HR for decades. Now you got me curious Bill...LOL. As of the last FUN show, I found out they have no EXHR in their system. I shall see if I can find out tomorrow about the regular HR's.

    If they had missed an EXHR and slabbed it as a regular HR, which I do not believe is the case in this instance, it would not show up as an EXHR in their records.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • logger7logger7 Posts: 8,011 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Is this the issue you are referring to? http://www.pcgscoinfacts.com/Hierarchy.aspx?c=786&title=Ultra+High+Relief+(1907)

    I doubt the numismatists at ICG would miss that (or much of anything for that matter).

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CaptHenway said: "If they had missed an EXHR and slabbed it as a regular HR, which I do not believe is the case in this instance, it would not show up as an EXHR in their records."

    LOL, that should be pretty hard to do - even for ICG.

    Here's a story I heard from an employee when the certification was located in DC. A dealer came into the office with a HR. He said a lady (her dead husband was connected w/the Treasury Department or the Mint I forget) had four of them and gave him his choice. According to him, all were blazing gem Unc's. He bought one that looked "funny" and told the director, Charles Hoskins that he knew it was either a counterfeit or something special. You guessed it. It was an EXHR. The dealer gave the ANA a big donation.

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 20, 2017 7:35PM

    Details of HR and Extremely High Relief designs differ. Only someone with Craig's List or maybe HSN could confuse the two.

    Check Renaissance of American Coinage 1905-1908 for all the details including plaster models.

  • logger7logger7 Posts: 8,011 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It's too bad the mint was selling those squat small 1 oz slugs as "high relief"s several years ago when they could have re-minted the large gold coins with a resemblance to the 1907 productions with fat letters.

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,427 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @logger7 said:
    It's too bad the mint was selling those squat small 1 oz slugs as "high relief"s several years ago when they could have re-minted the large gold coins with a resemblance to the 1907 productions with fat letters.

    That might have opened up some opportunities for abuse, and might have undermined the values for the original coin. When I received my example of the modern "Ultra High Relief," I was disappointed with size and relief of the piece. Then I saw and photographed the pieces at the Smithsonian and learned that the modern coin was a faithful reproduction of the pattern with double the thickness. As an owner of the original coin, I was happy to have an example of an uncollectable pattern. For those were hoping for a close copy of the classic collector coin, I can understand their disappointment.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Director Moy's goal was to produce collectible example of a pattern that would never be available to numismatists. All descriptions by the US Mint noted the size and design, plus the discrepancy of being made in .999 gold and not .900 gold as were the originals.

    The small diameter double eagle patterns were made from the same intermediate reductions as the normal diameter extremely high relief patterns.

  • logger7logger7 Posts: 8,011 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It's too bad they didn't produce the 100 year anniversary coins with all the attributes of the original with minor changes, with higher tech production equipment, many more collectors would have had a chance to get the much coveted HR without the $10K and above pricing. The only people who would have been unhappy would have been owners of the old ones with possible market loss.

  • REALGATORREALGATOR Posts: 2,581 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Bidder 5 fat-fingered early in the bidding such as 77000 instead of 7000 on Nov. 14. Bidder 4 wanted to see how far he could mess with it on Nov. 18. If he accidently became the high bid, he would withdraw it. Bidder 5 gets a surprise email on Nov. 19!

  • @cameonut2011 said:
    There is no way that is a shill bid. Who would shill it up to 64 money?

    An owner who paid way too much...

  • PTVETTERPTVETTER Posts: 5,880 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Private transaction should remain private.
    Ian should never release private transactions!

    Pat Vetter,Mercury Dime registry set,1938 Proof set registry,Pat & BJ Coins:724-325-7211


  • ArizonaRareCoinsArizonaRareCoins Posts: 679 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2017 2:33PM

    @REALGATOR said:
    Bidder 5 fat-fingered early in the bidding such as 77000 instead of 7000 on Nov. 14. Bidder 4 wanted to see how far he could mess with it on Nov. 18. If he accidently became the high bid, he would withdraw it. Bidder 5 gets a surprise email on Nov. 19!

    I'm thinking bidder 5 meant to bid 2,800, but hit an extra 0 and entered 28,000:
    his 1st bid was 2,200 on Nov 14 at 6:12:01PM
    his 2nd bid was 2,500 on Nov 14 at 6:12:24PM
    his 3rd bid should have been 2,800 on Nov 14 at 6:12:45PM
    JMO

  • earlycoinsearlycoins Posts: 282 ✭✭✭

    With those cuts on the rev, if our host actually graded this piece, it might be a 10k coin. Possibly less.

    Something is amiss here.

  • CommemDudeCommemDude Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PTVETTER said:
    Private transaction should remain private.
    Ian should never release private transactions!

    No one's asking for disclosure of names and addresses, just whether there is a way for any consigners to shill without penalty and drive up final prices

    According to auction terms listed by GC, there are no hidden reserves, and every auction winner pays 10-12.5% buyers fee. In addition there is a negotiated Sellers fee from 0-5%

    This gives bidders confidence that consigners, if they engage in shilling their coins, will at least be penalized 10% to buy them back. When there is an odd occurrence like this one, there are a lot of questions raised about the integrity of the process.

    Dr Mikey
    Commems and Early Type
  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 22,403 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Maybe they think it will upgrade to 64.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,611 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CommemDude said:
    I very much like Great Collections' business model and customer service and have bought coins in their auctions. While it would be completely unorthodox, I am hoping that Ian will step up and explain this transaction once he knows the facts.

    If Ian steps up and explalns someone else's transaction, I will never do business with Great Collections again.

  • joebb21joebb21 Posts: 4,732 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DIMEMAN said:
    Maybe they think it will upgrade to 64.

    I have a 64 I would sell fo $23,500

    It would need to go ms65 to make it worthwhile

    may the fonz be with you...always...
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 43,793 ✭✭✭✭✭

    out of my league , like most orbs.

  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 22,403 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @joebb21 said:

    @DIMEMAN said:
    Maybe they think it will upgrade to 64.

    I have a 64 I would sell fo $23,500

    It would need to go ms65 to make it worthwhile

    Looking at the coin.....I don't see how it could go MS anything. To me it has circ marks all over it. JMHO.

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