Wow. You may have found the sequence somewhere yourself.
Nice job man. I didn't expect two in the box myself.
I didn’t expect two either.
Must be the expectations of Canadian childhood growing up ripping OPC packs
You should expect to get 2 to 3 per box, not just 1 (remember, you're getting 432 cards per box on a 165-card set, and, I have to go back and check to confirm, but if my memory is right, which it might not be, I think 1985 Topps may have had fewer double-print cards than some of their other '80's sets). With Topps always being so much smaller of a set than OPC, plus having more cards per pack than OPC, Topps boxes yield higher quantity of stars. That is always the balance between the two brands though, with OPC being tougher condition and harder to pull, so value higher but chance of getting the cards you want being more difficult too.
Congrats on the good results! This is a really fun thread to see.
Just checked; from what I'm seeing, not 100% certain why the discrepancy but the 1985 set is detailed as either being SP or standard print volume, as opposed to being either standard or DP like most of the other sets. There are 66 single prints in this set. You'll likely find zero or 1 of the SP cards, and 2 to 3 of the balance cards. Mario should be 2 to 3 per box, same with Gretzky and Yzerman. There are some HOF's among the SP's but not higher priced ones. The most notable SP is Pelle Lindbergh.
Edit to add: The 1984 and 1985 Topps sets each had 165 cards per set, with 66 single print cards. By contrast, 1986, 1987, 1988 and 1989 each had 198 cards per set and 66 double print cards. All of these boxes were comprised of 432 cards (plus the stickers except for 1984).
OPC is less cards per pack but more packs per box. OPC gum is not as forgiving as Topps gum though and will likely have ruined at least one card per OPC pack, if not 2. Plus, set is much larger, so your chance of getting big hits in quality condition are way less than Topps. In summary, OPC is high risk / high reward. Topps is a relatively safer monetary bet, more fun to pull a greater number of stars but they are not valued as high due to the relative ease of pull. Both are fun options though!
Yes. There are 36 packs in the box but I’m going to sub two of them. Which leaves this one.
This pack will be intersting. It made it down to about the last 10 packs based off of visual appeal alone. Then when I started to give each pack a little more scrutiny I realized that this pack has no gum. So let’s see if it appears like a legit pack that should have had that piece from the double pack or if something else seems amiss.
It did feel like it opened easier then all the rest. Just didn’t have the same amount of resistance when opening. Overthinking? Perhaps.
Coalition appeared correct. With my very limited experience (1 box in the last 32 years) it seems like Topps packed these in runs of 6. I should have been more diligent about keeping track, but I wasn’t. Lesson learned. From my 32 packs of experience it seems that they sandwiched the Sticker between the two runs of 6. In the packs where I started to note exact order they were the same. Same six cards. Same order every time.
Now could that have changed throughout the print run. Certainly. But for my box. It was consistent. This pack matched.
Zero gum residue on the top card. Zero residue on any card.
Not one centered card in this pack that didn’t have a small stain, print defect, or surface issue. I think I had an above average box centering wise. I mean if not this set would be a cake walk right? I think the law of average finally caught up.
Corners. The whole pack was like daggers.
So I’d say the this pack was most likely legit. Had the gum been present I doubt I would have given it this kind of scrutiny.
Either way this rip was a blast. I will definitely be ripping more (perhaps not 85) in the very near future. I have a case of another year being delivered sometime this week. That will be my Holiday weekend trip.
Now I need to give closer inspection to the winners pile and get my sub out tomorrow.
If you see this thread Casey don’t worry I’ll get the sub shipped tomorrow!
I will for sure. I have about 25 in on the "monthly special" so hopefully by Easter. The 3 Lemieuxs and the 2 Gretzkys went in on my Collector Club renewal. So hopefully shortly after the new year.
The first of the grades from these arrived back from PSA. I felt slightly disappointed when I saw the grades pop. I really had it in my head that one Lemieux had a shot at a 10. After looking at them again I feel better. The two, 17 and 19 are off enough on centering to lose the eye appeal challenge that 10s face. 18 however was the one I had my hopes up for. Centering is right but I guess I neglected to remember the print line up by his head. Oh well. The Gretzky 10 may be generous so I cant complain.
These were sent in on vouchers. The rest that I subbed are in on a bulk submission that should be hopefully will be back by the end of February.
Yes Mike he makes this year. He is often given strong consideration in the Hockey GOAT conversation. He wouldn't be my choice but an argument definetly can be made.
Sent off 28 cards from the rip that just returned. Had 9 10s, 15 9s, and 3 of the nicest looking 5s you'll ever see. Seems that cards apparently have 2 sides to them. In my haste I missed gum stains on the backs of the 3 fives. A few of the 9s may get the rinse and repeat treatment.
I have a stack of others that have 10 potential but would be duplicates of what I sent or what I already have in 10s. They may find there way to PSA in the future or I may just sell them as part of a few complete sets down the road.
Here are the Highlights. The Gare is a pop 1 and the Fraiser a pop 2.
Also because I had so much fun ripping this box I decided to press on. These arrived last week and will be getting set free from their waxy tombs in the near future!
It's my theory that from 1985-86 to 1989-90 Topps did something really strange with its sheets and how the company printed them. We sort of assume that there are 66 double prints in the set, as the sheets hold 132 cards and the complete sets are 198 cards.
But after opening a lot of boxes from these years I don't believe that formula was used. I can't quite wrap my brain around how Topps managed it, but I believe there are a number of cards that were printed 4x others.
Anyone who has opened a box of 89-90 knows you will get 4 or 5 cards of Mark Messier, Cam Neely, Patrick Roy, or Brian Leetch to every one of Gretzky or Sakic. 88-89 yielded the same 4 or 5 to one ratio's of Brett Hull, Patrick Roy, and Steve Yzerman to every one of Lemieux or Shanahan. 86-87 and 87-88 were the years of LaFontaine and Yzerman appearing way more than other players.
85-86 Topps holds to that collation. Gretzky and Lemieux both appear much more than other cards, like Lanny McDonald or Pat LaFontaine, in every box.
My point is this- I don't believe there are 66 double printed cards to every single printed card. I think there was a formula that created 4 to 1 ratios of cards appearing in packs and also 2 to 1 ratios as well. It seems there are +/- 30 cards that appear once in a box. There are also the same amount (+/- 30) that are there 4x in a box every time. Then the balance appear about 2x box. This isn't the way the ratios would exist if it was strictly 66 double prints and 132 singe prints.
Uncut sheets would help understand this. I also think Topps might have cut 2x the sheets of the double printed cards to every one sheet of the single printed cards. That theory isn't strong either, but I have to start somewhere. It's a mystery I've never been able to figure out and it affects five years of topps hockey boxes.
I'm new to posting around here, but I'm not new to what's been posted around here for the last few years. This thread is one of my favorites -- I've followed it since its inception -- and I want to thank you for sharing this experience with us. I am a hockey fan (Flyers) and I'm a sometimes hockey card collector. It's always nice to see hockey cards here and what members are picking up. Best of luck!
I was on a self-imposed hiatus from these boards when you started this thread. If you have some singles available for sale, I am missing 12 for my set. I will PM you if you are ok with that.
You are definetly onto something with your theory. Unfortunately I haven't seen any uncut sheets either to confirm anything for this particular year. It's a 165 card set. Instead of thinking double print, think short prints (sp). In the registry 66 cards are designated as SP. That leaves 99 regular print cards. The registry values common regular prints as 1, commons that are SP as 2, and then there are 5 cards designated as FTC valued at 2.5 ( Andy Moog, Murray Craven, Anton Stastny, Pelle Lindbergh, and Troy Murray) and I haven't figured out what that stands for yet. If anyone knows please share!
Gretz, Mario, Lanny, and Patty LaLa are all regular print in the registry. On this printout the highlighted ones are considered to be SP.
As you stated sheets are arranged 11x12 for a total of 132 per sheet. So while there could be more options I would tend to lean toward one of the two following based off of them being the simplest. Each of these would require only 4 different sheets. While I'm no artist a diagram will save me a lot of typing so please excuse the artwork.
So in the top diagram you can control the ratio by the number of SP sheets that you'd print. And you would have a lot of control, anything from 2/1 to almost anything that you'd want. The second scenario would lock you into a 2/1 ratio unless you shorted one particular sheet but that would then create another SP subset of 33.
@minnesotahusker said:
I was on a self-imposed hiatus from these boards when you started this thread. If you have some singles available for sale, I am missing 12 for my set. I will PM you if you are ok with that.
Absolutely. Send me a list let me know graded or raw. I obviously have a ton of raw but have some already graded as well.
Doug Keans bio, which is slightly out of order considering 1985-86 Topps surely wasn't released that late in the season and also wouldn't have used photos from the 1985-86 season...
NHL AWARDS AND HONORS
Boston Gallery Gods Defensive Player of Year: 1983-84
1986-87: Was third goaltender on Boston team that went to 1987 Stanley Cup Finals, but did not appear in final series vs. Edmonton.
Miscellaneous: Signed first NHL contract with Los Angeles in summer of 1979. ... Won his first NHL game, making 13 saves for Los Angeles in a 3-2 victory over N.Y. Islanders. ... Took part in first shared shutout in Los Angeles history, sharing duties with Mario Lessard in a 3-0 victory over Boston on Feb. 20, 1980. ... Missed part of 1983-84 season with strained ligaments in left knee, an injury suffered during Boston's Dec. 15, 1983, game vs. Hartford. The injury required surgery. ... Named NHL Player of Week for week of Jan. 23, 1984. ... Missed start of 1984-85 season with pulled hamstring, an injury suffere during Boston's 1984 training camp. ... Missed part of 1984-85 season with groin injury. ... Missed part of 1985-86 season with injured left hand, an injury suffered during Boston's Feb. 6, 1986, game vs. Buffalo. ... Was NHL's shortest goalie during his playing days.
Also, can't believe I spaced on the 165 card set for 1985. I guess my memory is going. Interesting to look at the configurations you posted. I would love to know for sure how the collation happened. No other sets I've ever collected have such strange collation out of boxes that are so consistent from box to box.
I think the sp/dp designations given by beckett were simplistic. There is no way that there are only two Cliff Ronnings to every Joe Sakic in 1989-90 topps. I don't believe it.
Maybe there were more than two sheets. That would help with the explanation, but that is implausible considering the time it took to create the printing plates. If anyone has images from the sheets from these years that would be cool to see.
I will be ripping another box on Friday and Saturday night. I will do half each night and be starting around 8pm PST after one of my kids swim meet. If your around drop on by.
Now that my fantasy hockey season is over (I get choked up when I have to utter those words), I'll be looking forward to this fantasy rip. Best of luck, Kevin!
I will be ripping another box on Friday and Saturday night. I will do half each night and be starting around 8pm PST after one of my kids swim meet. If your around drop on by.
Comments
Just checked; from what I'm seeing, not 100% certain why the discrepancy but the 1985 set is detailed as either being SP or standard print volume, as opposed to being either standard or DP like most of the other sets. There are 66 single prints in this set. You'll likely find zero or 1 of the SP cards, and 2 to 3 of the balance cards. Mario should be 2 to 3 per box, same with Gretzky and Yzerman. There are some HOF's among the SP's but not higher priced ones. The most notable SP is Pelle Lindbergh.
Edit to add: The 1984 and 1985 Topps sets each had 165 cards per set, with 66 single print cards. By contrast, 1986, 1987, 1988 and 1989 each had 198 cards per set and 66 double print cards. All of these boxes were comprised of 432 cards (plus the stickers except for 1984).
Wow great box you have there congrats. I think that card will slide through as a PSA 10.
My new website www.lowgradegems.com
Tim
Only thing I see on the second Mario is some slight chipping on the bottom edge.
Decided to open a pack with my coffee after getting the kids on the bus.
Pack 24:
I’m sensing a trend.
Mario #3. Most oc so far.
Kevin
Hell yes!!! Congrats bro.
Scan
The line by his head is s crease in the penny sleeve reflecting on the scanner.
Kevin
Makes me want to open a box. Had no idea the odds were this stacked in favor. What is the cost of pack/box/case going for in this?
Wow! I had no idea there were so many HOFers in this set. There seem to be multiples in every pack!
Topps seems to be about $1250 per box and opc seems to be $4k+
OPC is less cards per pack but more packs per box. OPC gum is not as forgiving as Topps gum though and will likely have ruined at least one card per OPC pack, if not 2. Plus, set is much larger, so your chance of getting big hits in quality condition are way less than Topps. In summary, OPC is high risk / high reward. Topps is a relatively safer monetary bet, more fun to pull a greater number of stars but they are not valued as high due to the relative ease of pull. Both are fun options though!
Pack 25:
Kevin
Pack 26: Pelle sighting.
Kevin
Pack 27:
Kevin
Pack 28:
Kevin
Pack 29:
Kevin
Pack 30:
Kevin
Pack 31:
Kevin
Pack 32: While nothing crazy a well above average pack.
Kevin
Pack 33: Almost home.
Kevin
Pack 34: The last pack.
Yes. There are 36 packs in the box but I’m going to sub two of them. Which leaves this one.
This pack will be intersting. It made it down to about the last 10 packs based off of visual appeal alone. Then when I started to give each pack a little more scrutiny I realized that this pack has no gum. So let’s see if it appears like a legit pack that should have had that piece from the double pack or if something else seems amiss.
Back and seal looks solid.
Onward......
Kevin
It did feel like it opened easier then all the rest. Just didn’t have the same amount of resistance when opening. Overthinking? Perhaps.
Coalition appeared correct. With my very limited experience (1 box in the last 32 years) it seems like Topps packed these in runs of 6. I should have been more diligent about keeping track, but I wasn’t. Lesson learned. From my 32 packs of experience it seems that they sandwiched the Sticker between the two runs of 6. In the packs where I started to note exact order they were the same. Same six cards. Same order every time.
Now could that have changed throughout the print run. Certainly. But for my box. It was consistent. This pack matched.
Zero gum residue on the top card. Zero residue on any card.
Not one centered card in this pack that didn’t have a small stain, print defect, or surface issue. I think I had an above average box centering wise. I mean if not this set would be a cake walk right? I think the law of average finally caught up.
Corners. The whole pack was like daggers.
So I’d say the this pack was most likely legit. Had the gum been present I doubt I would have given it this kind of scrutiny.
Either way this rip was a blast. I will definitely be ripping more (perhaps not 85) in the very near future. I have a case of another year being delivered sometime this week. That will be my Holiday weekend trip.
Now I need to give closer inspection to the winners pile and get my sub out tomorrow.
If you see this thread Casey don’t worry I’ll get the sub shipped tomorrow!
Thanks for looking!
Kevin
Kevin
Lots of fun. Thanks for sharing Kevin and good luck when you sub those Marios.
Thanks for sharing. Good luck with the sub!
Arthur
Great rip. Thanks for posting.
Let us know the grades when you get the sub back!
I will for sure. I have about 25 in on the "monthly special" so hopefully by Easter. The 3 Lemieuxs and the 2 Gretzkys went in on my Collector Club renewal. So hopefully shortly after the new year.
Kevin
Kevin
Kevin, that was an awesome rip looks like you have some high grade cards there, thanks for sharing.
My new website www.lowgradegems.com
Tim
The first of the grades from these arrived back from PSA. I felt slightly disappointed when I saw the grades pop. I really had it in my head that one Lemieux had a shot at a 10. After looking at them again I feel better. The two, 17 and 19 are off enough on centering to lose the eye appeal challenge that 10s face. 18 however was the one I had my hopes up for. Centering is right but I guess I neglected to remember the print line up by his head. Oh well. The Gretzky 10 may be generous so I cant complain.
These were sent in on vouchers. The rest that I subbed are in on a bulk submission that should be hopefully will be back by the end of February.
Kevin
Kevin
Beautiful cards regardless. I'd resub that last Lemieux. That mark is not holding it back. The magnitude of the card is.
Hiya Kevin
That was pure entertainment buddy!
I think ya did great.
Since the only thing I know about hockey is puck, stick, ice - I'm guessing Lemieux is key to the set?
Good luck on the rest of your sub.
Looking forward to your post.
Great job. Great thread.
Thanks guys.
Yes Mike he makes this year. He is often given strong consideration in the Hockey GOAT conversation. He wouldn't be my choice but an argument definetly can be made.
Kevin
Kevin
Nice looking cards. Congrats!!
3/18 Update
Sent off 28 cards from the rip that just returned. Had 9 10s, 15 9s, and 3 of the nicest looking 5s you'll ever see. Seems that cards apparently have 2 sides to them. In my haste I missed gum stains on the backs of the 3 fives. A few of the 9s may get the rinse and repeat treatment.
I have a stack of others that have 10 potential but would be duplicates of what I sent or what I already have in 10s. They may find there way to PSA in the future or I may just sell them as part of a few complete sets down the road.
Here are the Highlights. The Gare is a pop 1 and the Fraiser a pop 2.
Kevin
Also because I had so much fun ripping this box I decided to press on. These arrived last week and will be getting set free from their waxy tombs in the near future!
Kevin
Kevin
Great results!
Always loved that Doug Keans picture. He is holding his glove and blocker in such a dainty way. Tea, anyone?
Only if the tea is with Miss. McGill.
Your comment killed me. I can’t unsee it now. I never noticed his hand. Every time I saw the card I always thought of Denis Lemieux.
Kevin
Kevin
This is one of my absolute favorite threads. LOVE the 85's!
Kevin,
It's my theory that from 1985-86 to 1989-90 Topps did something really strange with its sheets and how the company printed them. We sort of assume that there are 66 double prints in the set, as the sheets hold 132 cards and the complete sets are 198 cards.
But after opening a lot of boxes from these years I don't believe that formula was used. I can't quite wrap my brain around how Topps managed it, but I believe there are a number of cards that were printed 4x others.
Anyone who has opened a box of 89-90 knows you will get 4 or 5 cards of Mark Messier, Cam Neely, Patrick Roy, or Brian Leetch to every one of Gretzky or Sakic. 88-89 yielded the same 4 or 5 to one ratio's of Brett Hull, Patrick Roy, and Steve Yzerman to every one of Lemieux or Shanahan. 86-87 and 87-88 were the years of LaFontaine and Yzerman appearing way more than other players.
85-86 Topps holds to that collation. Gretzky and Lemieux both appear much more than other cards, like Lanny McDonald or Pat LaFontaine, in every box.
My point is this- I don't believe there are 66 double printed cards to every single printed card. I think there was a formula that created 4 to 1 ratios of cards appearing in packs and also 2 to 1 ratios as well. It seems there are +/- 30 cards that appear once in a box. There are also the same amount (+/- 30) that are there 4x in a box every time. Then the balance appear about 2x box. This isn't the way the ratios would exist if it was strictly 66 double prints and 132 singe prints.
Uncut sheets would help understand this. I also think Topps might have cut 2x the sheets of the double printed cards to every one sheet of the single printed cards. That theory isn't strong either, but I have to start somewhere. It's a mystery I've never been able to figure out and it affects five years of topps hockey boxes.
Thanks for reading my conspiracy theory post.
-Nathanael
Kevin,
I'm new to posting around here, but I'm not new to what's been posted around here for the last few years. This thread is one of my favorites -- I've followed it since its inception -- and I want to thank you for sharing this experience with us. I am a hockey fan (Flyers) and I'm a sometimes hockey card collector. It's always nice to see hockey cards here and what members are picking up. Best of luck!
Andy
Andy
I was on a self-imposed hiatus from these boards when you started this thread. If you have some singles available for sale, I am missing 12 for my set. I will PM you if you are ok with that.
Glad you guys are enjoying it. It's been a fun project for sure.
Nathanael, ( @Frozencaribou )
You are definetly onto something with your theory. Unfortunately I haven't seen any uncut sheets either to confirm anything for this particular year. It's a 165 card set. Instead of thinking double print, think short prints (sp). In the registry 66 cards are designated as SP. That leaves 99 regular print cards. The registry values common regular prints as 1, commons that are SP as 2, and then there are 5 cards designated as FTC valued at 2.5 ( Andy Moog, Murray Craven, Anton Stastny, Pelle Lindbergh, and Troy Murray) and I haven't figured out what that stands for yet. If anyone knows please share!
Gretz, Mario, Lanny, and Patty LaLa are all regular print in the registry. On this printout the highlighted ones are considered to be SP.
As you stated sheets are arranged 11x12 for a total of 132 per sheet. So while there could be more options I would tend to lean toward one of the two following based off of them being the simplest. Each of these would require only 4 different sheets. While I'm no artist a diagram will save me a lot of typing so please excuse the artwork.
So in the top diagram you can control the ratio by the number of SP sheets that you'd print. And you would have a lot of control, anything from 2/1 to almost anything that you'd want. The second scenario would lock you into a 2/1 ratio unless you shorted one particular sheet but that would then create another SP subset of 33.
Again these are just my theories.
Kevin
Kevin
Absolutely. Send me a list let me know graded or raw. I obviously have a ton of raw but have some already graded as well.
Kevin
Kevin
I'll cut the guy a break; his left index finger is broken
Doug Keans bio, which is slightly out of order considering 1985-86 Topps surely wasn't released that late in the season and also wouldn't have used photos from the 1985-86 season...
NHL AWARDS AND HONORS
Boston Gallery Gods Defensive Player of Year: 1983-84
1986-87: Was third goaltender on Boston team that went to 1987 Stanley Cup Finals, but did not appear in final series vs. Edmonton.
Miscellaneous: Signed first NHL contract with Los Angeles in summer of 1979. ... Won his first NHL game, making 13 saves for Los Angeles in a 3-2 victory over N.Y. Islanders. ... Took part in first shared shutout in Los Angeles history, sharing duties with Mario Lessard in a 3-0 victory over Boston on Feb. 20, 1980. ... Missed part of 1983-84 season with strained ligaments in left knee, an injury suffered during Boston's Dec. 15, 1983, game vs. Hartford. The injury required surgery. ... Named NHL Player of Week for week of Jan. 23, 1984. ... Missed start of 1984-85 season with pulled hamstring, an injury suffere during Boston's 1984 training camp. ... Missed part of 1984-85 season with groin injury. ... Missed part of 1985-86 season with injured left hand, an injury suffered during Boston's Feb. 6, 1986, game vs. Buffalo. ... Was NHL's shortest goalie during his playing days.
Also, can't believe I spaced on the 165 card set for 1985. I guess my memory is going. Interesting to look at the configurations you posted. I would love to know for sure how the collation happened. No other sets I've ever collected have such strange collation out of boxes that are so consistent from box to box.
I think the sp/dp designations given by beckett were simplistic. There is no way that there are only two Cliff Ronnings to every Joe Sakic in 1989-90 topps. I don't believe it.
Maybe there were more than two sheets. That would help with the explanation, but that is implausible considering the time it took to create the printing plates. If anyone has images from the sheets from these years that would be cool to see.
"Was NHL's shortest goalie during his playing days."
Going to have to argue this. Pang is only 5'4" that's 4" shorter than him!
Kevin
Kevin
FWIW
I will be ripping another box on Friday and Saturday night. I will do half each night and be starting around 8pm PST after one of my kids swim meet. If your around drop on by.
Kevin
Kevin
Now that my fantasy hockey season is over (I get choked up when I have to utter those words), I'll be looking forward to this fantasy rip. Best of luck, Kevin!
Andy
Andy
Youtube it live brother!
Where there's a Gretzky, comes Lemieux.