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RD or RB?
logger7
Posts: 8,094 ✭✭✭✭✭
This Indian cent had been graded by another service 65RD, just got results that it had been graded 65 RB by our sponsor:
There is a little obscuration from holder plastic. Also I did have some concern with the surface non-red on reverse. Can that be conserved?
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Looks like a nice original coin to me.
IMO, both TPGS were/are correct with their opinions!
I just noticed the difference in grading. I would call it RB myself.
It's just an opinion, but this coin looks to have been dipped to me. The color looks too subdued to me to be original. It should have more fire and "life." Most red colored cents that I have seen did not have a matte finish like this; they have a mint luster “cartwheel.”
I've seen this kind of call many times before with copper coins that appear to be red, but still get an R&B. Many times this red did not look original to me, and yet the coin was not "going bad" and looked credible to some people. I view this as a bit of a grading compromise.
Disagree 100% Bill. That coin will look much better if properly conserved. It possibly has that typical hazy film seen on copper. Should have been conserved before submission.
How do you conserve from that typical hazy film seen on copper?
I would not call her RED, but it is not RB, or BN...Questionable Color in my opinion. It may be the carbon spot above the zero that may be holding her back.
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@Ronyahski asked: "How do you conserve from that typical hazy film seen on copper?"
One of the guys at a conservation service may know. In the ANA class they mention chemicals like acetone and Coin Care. I've seen the Large cent dealers brushing their coins as they set up at a show but I don't recommend that for this one! It's best not to touch your coins w/o experience.
90% red
I'm not sure conservation is smart money.
For one thing, this is a sub $200 coin and the fees for conservation, the 2% premium, and S/I would be a large piece of that.
Also, PCGS doesn't like to mess with copper beyond treating for PVC or verdigris, in my experience. Dipping copper coins is tricky and very risky. And most problems with copper will not go away.
I wouldn't hesitate to give this coin an acetone bath but I also wouldn't expect any improvement to the troubling dark areas/spotting (some of which look like staining to me).
I'd sell it and get another I loved.
Lance.
i dipped in acetone and "Conserv" before sending it in, not much change.
Looks a lot like an Indian I sent in that came back "Questionable Color." lol
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Guess I have questions about the photo vs. "coin in hand".
That color doesn't look like the "red" we have come to know and expect....but it may just be the photograph.
An application of "Care" would give that coin some gloss, but it will never restore the original luster was has been lost permanently. Acetone will remove surface dirt and oils, but it also does not restore luster.
The photos may also be the reason for a lack of luster. Axial lighting does that - hard to get a cartwheel luster off of axial lighting without an additional hard spot IMHO.
I've seen my share of 1901's including a full roll of 50 when it came back from PCGS, so I'm surprised that this straight graded.
You guys need to stop using acetone on copper as a preventative since it dries it out and does alter the color.
I disagree 100%. AFAIK, Acetone is one of the most harmless chemicals in the conservation arsenal! Very often it is the first chemical applied to a coin as a "pre-dip." There are other "pre-dip" steps used either before or after the "acetone step" and before any actual conservation is started!
BTW, I've used acetone on all alloys and even porcelain tokens. The only numismatic items I should not try it on are made of plastic.
Since I have been accused of being a hateful poster in a thread today, this is for you
I hope you are not offended and take this as some light-hearted humor.
Acetone and other cleaners like it are not harmless for copper. The specialists say that you had better re-protect the surfaces with something like CARE or Blue Ribbon, or you could be headed for trouble. Stripping copper is a dangerous move and leaving the surfaces unprotected is a dangerous move.
A thin coat of mineral oil will rejuvenate surfaces stripped by acetone.
@BillJones
@Broadstruck
As for this: "Acetone and other cleaners like it are not harmless for copper."
Perhaps you two "professional" conservation specialists might wish to get in touch with some of your professional colleagues who conserve copper on a daily basis to inform them of the errors of their ways.
BTW, please read my post again. Acetone is step ONE. Clear now?
Then read Mr. Bill's excellent advice. I'll bet he just forgot to add: DON'T LEAVE YOUR COPPER GREASY LOOKING after treatment as the TPGS don't like it.
Insider2, If you really think acetone is so harmless why don't you drink a glass with dinner.
I personally never use anything on a coin, medal, or token which I couldn't consume.
@Broadstruck said: "Insider2, If you really think acetone is so harmless why don't you drink a glass with dinner. I personally never use anything on a coin, medal, or token which I couldn't consume."
That's why I used "professional" to describe your "knowledge" of proper coin conservation methods. I realized by your post and feelings about acetone that you know very little about the subject you are disagreeing with.
I rarely question anyone's statements until I have some personal practical experience to confirm if they are true or not.
BTW, Please be careful. Some of the "snowflakes" may not appreciate a good joke. I don't wish you to get flagged for abuse. Anyway, do you mix your mineral oil with anything or just take it on the "rocks."
Insider2, I learned a long time ago that you can't fix stupid, so any further discussion with you seems worthless.
I think the issue is that the pro-acetone forces left the impression that, "You can splash it on, and no changes will take place!"
Later posts correcting this only serve to prove the point of the opposition: In reality, acetone really does affect copper.
I'm no "conservation specialist", but even I know from my own experience with some cull large cents that they came out looking....drab?....after plain acetone was used.
So: Suggest that any future suggestions to use acetone on copper should immediately point out that "other operations" need to take place as well. (I won't speak for what those are, since I don't have THAT experience).
Actually...GO TO THE HEAD OF THE CLASS! As a pro-acetone poster, I forgot whom I'm posting with and I ASSUMED too much. @Broadstruck is correct, I was stupid.
Acetone removes organics. Organics often cause haze and crud. Eventually, they MAY harm the copper coin they are on. Copper is reactive in some environments and needs to be protected.
There is a dealer at local coin shows who has a whole display case full of Indian and Lincoln Cents. All are raw, and appear to be high grade, but as I stroll by his table I never stop to look because they ALL have the same color, and indeed it is the color I see on this 1901.
http://macrocoins.com
We've been over this before. Acetone doesn't affect copper. It affects the contaminants on the surface that contribute to the coin's appearance.
When it removes those contaminants the coin can certainly appear dried-out and with a slight change in appearance (color). Application of a little Coincare or BlueRibbon helps restore some of this. It is best to carefully remove as much of these lubricators as possible before storing or submitting for grading.
Lance.
Based on my metallurgical training and chemistry knowledge, I would like to add something here. Acetone affects organics...it is non reactive with metals. The appearance of copper is often visibly changed when subjected to acetone due to the removal of organic oils and other residues. Depending on the accumulated residues and their chemical actions on the base copper, the resulting coin can appear radically different - or perhaps, with a clean coin, no change whatsoever. This is the reason that many report differing results with acetone on copper. Take a clean copper slug (or chunk of heavy copper wire) and submerge it in a jar of acetone.... leave it for months if you want... there will be no change if the copper was clean before the bath. As an organic solvent, acetone will only affect the organics.... however, the organics may have affected the copper. Cheers, RickO
Color looks a bit 'off' to me. Is there a doctor in the house?
Dave
What's underneath is already too far gone. The darkness on the high points will contrast more deeply with redder surfaces.
Beyond that, I don't like (instantaneous) the 65 grade based on the bright mark on the cheek and wouldn't tolerate the blotch at the date for RD. Whatever is taken off the surface of the rest of the coin will be taken out of the "divot" and increase its brightness too.
Entombed. Every distraction is on a focal point.
A zombie ritual from a 7th-degree black belt numismatic necromancer might help, but the reflectivity of the raw metal of that mark cannot be masked.
I've not commented on this coin except in a PM. IMO, you are one of the few folks here to have seen Indian's with a similar surface at a TPGS. It is too bad we cannot see the edge and you don't have it in hand. It reminds me of a "gilt" so-called dollar.
ICGFP - I Can't Grade From Pictures
@ColonelJessup said: "What's underneath is already too far gone. The darkness on the high points will contrast more deeply with redder surfaces. Beyond that, I don't like the 65 grade based on the bright mark on the cheek (instantaneous) and **wouldn't tolerate the spot for RD."
Just for the sake of discussion, IMO you may guilty of "micro grading." Additionally, while I personally don't tolerate any dark spots on copper, from what I see. the TPGS don't mind a few (How many is few?) spots.
PS IMO the pictures available to us in modern times are amazing.
May you be cursed by dreaming about it (and not being able (in the dream) to get them to stop and do it right).
Again and again and again
edited the quoted post from "spot" to "blotch"
Beyond the impact of the mark, too much "definitely un-red"
I surrender O'Great One! Discussion over.
Only perfect and 100% problem free coins get to be Star-kissed (* or CAC).
The coin got stickered this week from cac. Maybe the scuffed holder affected perception here.
Have seen a lot of copper like that. Coin's color appears to have been compromised. I know what a RD IHC or Lincoln Cent should like like, and that isn't it. Bill Jones is spot on, and so is the Colonel. I don't care who holdered, graded or stickered the coin. If it looks in person like the image, I'd pass.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
I have enough faith in the three services involved to guess that the photo isn't a fair representation of the coin.
Looks RB to me
That's a coin I would like to be called RB if I were buying and RD if I were selling.
It's on the cusp with me, but if forced to pick I would say high end RB rather than low end RD.
Therefore, RB to me.