I Third that anyone trying to make money off this piece as an upgrade is likely buried. From a collector standpoint, it is a great original example and the value is subjective based on the collector and does not rely as much on auction history or price guides.
Collector of Original Early Gold with beginnings in Proof Morgan collecting.
GC is protecting it dealer customers and thus won't publish prices. Let Ian come here and dispute that. If other auction houses could do that, they probably would. Still they don't get the highest prices overall-no internet only auction does. While that one coin -the 1825 sold for zoo money, there were other coins that sold too cheap.
Bet the owner of the 1825 will go for a + now. You know how the grading steps go in the game
@10000lakes said:
It now resides in an AU58 secure holder. Trueview hasn't been posted yet.
Must have been submitted under reconsideration since it has the same cert#.
Three people were willing to bid over 31K, so they must of saw something they liked.
Based on the quick turn around in grading, I would guess they saw it in hand and took it down the road for grading
Guide is 26.5. I can see it selling for 30k tops now with the sticker. Unless someone really feels they can push it into an MS holder. I'm guessing it wouldn't bean at those levels though.......buried is right!
Collector of Original Early Gold with beginnings in Proof Morgan collecting.
@Proofmorgan said:
Guide is 26.5. I can see it selling for 30k tops now with the sticker. Unless someone really feels they can push it into an MS holder. I'm guessing it wouldn't bean at those levels though.......buried is right!
Coin is no longer fresh. Tougher to see the potential in a freshly graded slab with or without a green sticker
I always read "buy what you like" and dont worry about "investing" --seems like a different standard being used for the purchaser who got an amazing coin
This type of coin is not a commodity that is strictly valued by the number on the slab. I think we forget that the TPG attempt to support a sight unseen market works best for the generics.
In the late 90's I looked at buying a 1797 halve in Ngc 61 but at the same time an Ngc 58 was available. The 61was yes kind of a 61 but white and the 58 which wasn't a slider just nice 58 had such great bulls eye toning it sold within a month for more than the Unc (10-15k). The unc got passed around thru several dealers for several months. Dealers who dealt with that caliber all felt the coin was worth the premium.
I realize Pcgs graded coins do get and deserve more stickers but it surprises me that many feel a Ngc Cac is worth less than a Pcgs Cac. It's not as if the number on the slab gives us the exact weight nor exact value.
i would like to own some early US gold, but it has a minimal number of quality items available, so I won't bother fighting over them. Just read the comments above...I think the Dark Side has the golden lining.
@Elmhurst said:
i would like to own some early US gold, but it has a minimal number of quality items available, so I won't bother fighting over them. Just read the comments above...I think the Dark Side has the golden lining.
If you want to own just one piece of early gold the Capped Bust 1821-7 quarter eagle is not a great choice. The coin is genuinely rare, and most of the few surviving pieces are marked up and not that nice. The Capped Bust Right, Heraldic Eagle is the best "representative" early gold piece in my opinion. It is the most common type of early gold, and it has an iconic design that many collectors admire.
I bought this on in 1982. It is now in a PCGS AU-58 holder.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Bill -- yours is a beautiful coin but personally I prefer the Fat Head design better...to each their own...
I'd guess based upon the speed of grading that the coin was purchased by a West Coast dealer...maybe picked up in person from GC and dropped at PCGS...
As a long-term collector I'd pay $30K+ for this coin in a PCGS/CAC 58 holder so he's not buried that much...
I got a "fat head" five for a representative type. Quite a while back and they never really appreciate in price, I think due to being less common than the HE capped earlier $5.
Also, I recently sold my capped $5 and kept the $10 as representative of type. It's also bigger and easier to see.
I don't consider early gold to be coins to speculate on price rises. Just part of a collection.
WOW - I really thought someone paid up for their OGH type set.
It's easy to think of GC as an Internet Only site but that's not always the case.
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal.
@Proofmorgan said:
Anyone willing to wager when/if we'll see this piece back up for sale? Or if it'll be sent in again.....or dipped and sent on again?
I'll take the bet that it won't be sent in again...since the buyer made the effort to send it back to CAC
@cnncoins said:
Many times I get outbid. Grading is only part of the equation. Figuring value is the other part. Someone valued the coin more than I did. Congrats to them!
Any aficionado of pre-Classic gold is going to consider this coin as delectable. Every trackable price point is a one-off with this level of quality. If someone has to wait five or ten years for a sweet coin to show up, he/she is not all that likely to be concerned with resale.
Look at the imminent Newman sale that @privaterarecoincollector referred to for an early eye-candy Encounter of the First Kind.
I rate the Newman 1795 $5 very close behind @prcc's on original yumminess. There's an NGC 65PL piece that shows up every 3-5 years. It continues to disappoint some.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
Well, perhaps I could add a little clarity to the coin. I was offered this along with 5 or 6 other cool gold coins about 4 months ago. I am usually at the shop on Friday's, so here I am and a client walks in starts screaming "Hey Seth, this coin shop over in so and so has all this stuff that you like, early gold, all OGH" Sounds good, so I call up the guy, we do not know each other, but he knows the shop, everyone does and proceeds to tell me about the group. Gold CAC Proof 2 1/2 Lib, this 1825, a HR, a 1795 Ten, and early five, and I think another early quarter Eagle. Apparently, the owner bought in the 1970's, sent to PCGS in the 1990's and the other coin store sent to CAC. How's that for a full cycle.
So I tell the fellow that I will send over Sean, a fine Numismatist from the shop to his store to check them out on Monday. Sean reports back they are the real deal, and we start negotiating, we ended up being about 3 or 4% apart and I couldn't make it happen. Dumb mistake on my part. Always pay the price. Since I didn't, I handed it over to a buddy who paid the price. I only wanted him to tell me if anything upgraded, so I can learn.
Chris N nailed the grade as I thought as well. In fact I had to fly down an item to PCGS about 2 months ago and I spent the better part of the day at his office just picking his brain. What a wonderful person!! He knows early gold.
This 1825 is an awesome, original early gold coin, and probably a 61. For clarity's sake, the only thing I didn't like was a very well hidden pin scratch about 5 mm long. No big deal.
The lesson learned, and we learn something every day, never, ever let a coin like this slip buy for a few extra dollars.
Besides, I have had more than my fair share of early gold in early holders "EGEH" this year.
“This 1825 is an awesome, original early gold coin, and probably a 61. For clarity's sake, the only thing I didn't like was a very well hidden pin scratch about 5 mm long. No big deal.”
I viewed the coin at GC. The above description is accurate. But, as described above, the coin does have a scratch that runs vertically from star 10 to 13. If you look at the auction pictures you can see exactly where the scratch is. Looking at the coin straight on it is not very noticeable, but if you tilt the coin slightly it is very obvious.
Is it a realistic scenario for a coin like this to upgrade to a 61 based on today’s grading standards ?
Its a phenomena that happens when a coin is submitted for crossover or reconsideration: sometimes no one looks ahead to a much higher grade. I would bet this coin will end up a 61 all in at some point.
The owner will make money with it,. You have to know the market on this stuff. The pros who have popped in do not seem to have questioned the coin or price much.
It is interesting to note that there has not been one close-up of this coin posted anywhere on the thread. The only photo available is the full slab photo, which can be enlarged, but still shows more of the slab than the coin. From this we are supposed to believe that coin, which appears to have a rub in the obverse fields, is a Mint State piece.
Let's get this straight. An extensive rub that seems to cover most of the coin, says "AU" to me, unless you want to go back to the 1970s when a leading retail and auction firm came up with the oxymoron, “BU light rubbing.” A coin with a rub does not repair itself over time. If it is properly stored, it says like it already is. Yet now it’s Mint State.
I find that confusing.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@cnncoins said:
For what it's worth, I thought the coin was easily a 58 (Shot 61) by today's grading standards. It was REALLY nice for an 1825. It realized much more than I thought it would bring, but whoever bought it got a great coin!
Isn't it odd that this is how we think of it, "58 shot 61"?
Not 58 shot 60, or what would be even better, for coins with this kind of rarity, and pricing structure, 58 shot 59.
Oh no, the next jump, if any, has to be 3 full points, or none?
The slider to Mint State phenomenon has driven up the price of some coins, but they are still sliders. I paid the price for an 1834, Crosslet 4 Classic Head half eagle (rare coin) which had been jumped from AU-58 to MS-61. It’s still an AU-58, but I bought it because I figured I’ll never see another one which was that nice and would fit in my set.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
The true view is finally up. You can really blow it up to see every detail. IMO the coin would be MS if dipped. Sometimes I feel high point toning is taken as wear and this may be the case. The piece has lovely skin, but has some scrapes and lines here and there. It looks cleaner than a 61, but it's no "AU 65". Besides the scrapes in the left obverse field, the is a scrape/gash at the left wing tip on the reverse.
All that said, I'd love the own the piece but not at over 36k.
Collector of Original Early Gold with beginnings in Proof Morgan collecting.
This one of the reasons why I've so much trouble filling my want list for Classic Head gold. So many pieces have been dipped and scrubbed that they look like "white gold." The worst examples have been shined like brass buttons and put into NGC MS-61 holders. I saw four of these things when I was looking for the 1839-C $2.50. Sadly one of the mantras for upgrades seems to be, scrub the coin, ruin the coin, get rewarded for doing it.
Scratches are not made of the stuff that forms toning. They are marks below the surface and into the medal. So far as Large Size Capped Bust $2.50 type coins (1821 – 1827) are concerned, dipping them could make them look worse because most of the examples are P-L. The mintages were so low that the initial shine was not worn off the dies. Dipping the surfaces bright would emphasize the scratches, not reduce them.
If shiny = Mint State then I guess there are lot more Mint State coins around than any of us knew. Those who know how to grade know that’s not true, but for the others I guess they can go live in their fantasy land.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
I fully agree with this. I own several coins of this type which are all PCGS CAC. It would be very challenging to make money off of selling this coin unless it we're to re-grade MS62 CAC. That said it's a fair price for a 61 CAC.
How long have you been studying this series? You have very sophisticated salivary glands
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
I completely agree. If it were my coin it would have stayed in the 55 OGH. I search high and low for original early gold, which is becoming impossible to find. So much so that I've had to pay multiple grades higher to acquire them.
The sad state of the market is the dipped 61-62 is bringing more than the nice 55-58 CAC pieces typically. And the people dipping are the ones looking for the quick wholesale flip. These pieces eventually sit in someone's inventory forever. I'd hope that one day the tables will turn, but how many will be left by then.
Collector of Original Early Gold with beginnings in Proof Morgan collecting.
Comments
You're exactly right. That's why they don't publish their auction prices to PCGS or elsewhere (besides their website)
If true, why would GC even care what a third party shows as their auction results?
I Third that anyone trying to make money off this piece as an upgrade is likely buried. From a collector standpoint, it is a great original example and the value is subjective based on the collector and does not rely as much on auction history or price guides.
please send me all the fresh early gold like this you all have that is pcgs cac. i'll pay stupid too! key words: FRESH and PCGS CAC.
I will bet the owner will make money on the coin.
And exactly what are you basing your conclusions on?
It now resides in an AU58 secure holder. Trueview hasn't been posted yet.
Must have been submitted under reconsideration since it has the same cert#.
https://pcgs.com/cert/1309879
GC is protecting it dealer customers and thus won't publish prices. Let Ian come here and dispute that. If other auction houses could do that, they probably would. Still they don't get the highest prices overall-no internet only auction does. While that one coin -the 1825 sold for zoo money, there were other coins that sold too cheap.
Bet the owner of the 1825 will go for a + now. You know how the grading steps go in the game
there goes the OGH premium theory.
Buried.
Latin American Collection
Three people were willing to bid over 31K, so they must of saw something they liked.
Based on the quick turn around in grading, I would guess they saw it in hand and took it down the road for grading
Guide is 26.5. I can see it selling for 30k tops now with the sticker. Unless someone really feels they can push it into an MS holder. I'm guessing it wouldn't bean at those levels though.......buried is right!
Coin is no longer fresh. Tougher to see the potential in a freshly graded slab with or without a green sticker
Latin American Collection
RE:
Buried.
If you're a flipper, definitely not if you are a long term collector.
A long term collector likely wouldn't have regraded that coin.
Latin American Collection
RE:
A long term collector likely wouldn't have regraded that coin.
We will see. You can report back when you see it offered.
No more OGH. Think it will CAC as a 58?
My bet is that the current cert# will not be valid for long, and maybe the pop will change.
https://pcgs.com/pop/pcgsnolookup.aspx?s=7664&p=MS&t=5
I always read "buy what you like" and dont worry about "investing" --seems like a different standard being used for the purchaser who got an amazing coin
This type of coin is not a commodity that is strictly valued by the number on the slab. I think we forget that the TPG attempt to support a sight unseen market works best for the generics.
In the late 90's I looked at buying a 1797 halve in Ngc 61 but at the same time an Ngc 58 was available. The 61was yes kind of a 61 but white and the 58 which wasn't a slider just nice 58 had such great bulls eye toning it sold within a month for more than the Unc (10-15k). The unc got passed around thru several dealers for several months. Dealers who dealt with that caliber all felt the coin was worth the premium.
I realize Pcgs graded coins do get and deserve more stickers but it surprises me that many feel a Ngc Cac is worth less than a Pcgs Cac. It's not as if the number on the slab gives us the exact weight nor exact value.
i would like to own some early US gold, but it has a minimal number of quality items available, so I won't bother fighting over them. Just read the comments above...I think the Dark Side has the golden lining.
If you want to own just one piece of early gold the Capped Bust 1821-7 quarter eagle is not a great choice. The coin is genuinely rare, and most of the few surviving pieces are marked up and not that nice. The Capped Bust Right, Heraldic Eagle is the best "representative" early gold piece in my opinion. It is the most common type of early gold, and it has an iconic design that many collectors admire.
I bought this on in 1982. It is now in a PCGS AU-58 holder.
Bill -- yours is a beautiful coin but personally I prefer the Fat Head design better...to each their own...
I'd guess based upon the speed of grading that the coin was purchased by a West Coast dealer...maybe picked up in person from GC and dropped at PCGS...
As a long-term collector I'd pay $30K+ for this coin in a PCGS/CAC 58 holder so he's not buried that much...
I got a "fat head" five for a representative type. Quite a while back and they never really appreciate in price, I think due to being less common than the HE capped earlier $5.
Also, I recently sold my capped $5 and kept the $10 as representative of type. It's also bigger and easier to see.
I don't consider early gold to be coins to speculate on price rises. Just part of a collection.
topstuff, now those look like sweet coins!
WOW - I really thought someone paid up for their OGH type set.
It's easy to think of GC as an Internet Only site but that's not always the case.
Anyone willing to wager when/if we'll see this piece back up for sale? Or if it'll be sent in again.....or dipped and sent on again?
I'll take the bet that it won't be sent in again...since the buyer made the effort to send it back to CAC
Please keep on topic, no more attacking each other, PCGS Dealers or other numismatists.
Users have been warned, banning is next.
For your reference, the PCGS forum rules can be found here https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/755959/posting-rules-updated-2-12-11#latest
PCGS Set Registry Manager
Any aficionado of pre-Classic gold is going to consider this coin as delectable. Every trackable price point is a one-off with this level of quality. If someone has to wait five or ten years for a sweet coin to show up, he/she is not all that likely to be concerned with resale.
Look at the imminent Newman sale that @privaterarecoincollector referred to for an early eye-candy Encounter of the First Kind.
I rate the Newman 1795 $5 very close behind @prcc's on original yumminess. There's an NGC 65PL piece that shows up every 3-5 years. It continues to disappoint some.
Well, perhaps I could add a little clarity to the coin. I was offered this along with 5 or 6 other cool gold coins about 4 months ago. I am usually at the shop on Friday's, so here I am and a client walks in starts screaming "Hey Seth, this coin shop over in so and so has all this stuff that you like, early gold, all OGH" Sounds good, so I call up the guy, we do not know each other, but he knows the shop, everyone does and proceeds to tell me about the group. Gold CAC Proof 2 1/2 Lib, this 1825, a HR, a 1795 Ten, and early five, and I think another early quarter Eagle. Apparently, the owner bought in the 1970's, sent to PCGS in the 1990's and the other coin store sent to CAC. How's that for a full cycle.
So I tell the fellow that I will send over Sean, a fine Numismatist from the shop to his store to check them out on Monday. Sean reports back they are the real deal, and we start negotiating, we ended up being about 3 or 4% apart and I couldn't make it happen. Dumb mistake on my part. Always pay the price. Since I didn't, I handed it over to a buddy who paid the price. I only wanted him to tell me if anything upgraded, so I can learn.
Chris N nailed the grade as I thought as well. In fact I had to fly down an item to PCGS about 2 months ago and I spent the better part of the day at his office just picking his brain. What a wonderful person!! He knows early gold.
This 1825 is an awesome, original early gold coin, and probably a 61. For clarity's sake, the only thing I didn't like was a very well hidden pin scratch about 5 mm long. No big deal.
The lesson learned, and we learn something every day, never, ever let a coin like this slip buy for a few extra dollars.
Besides, I have had more than my fair share of early gold in early holders "EGEH" this year.
Seth
“This 1825 is an awesome, original early gold coin, and probably a 61. For clarity's sake, the only thing I didn't like was a very well hidden pin scratch about 5 mm long. No big deal.”
I viewed the coin at GC. The above description is accurate. But, as described above, the coin does have a scratch that runs vertically from star 10 to 13. If you look at the auction pictures you can see exactly where the scratch is. Looking at the coin straight on it is not very noticeable, but if you tilt the coin slightly it is very obvious.
Is it a realistic scenario for a coin like this to upgrade to a 61 based on today’s grading standards ?
This is interesting since PCGS and CAC/JA graded it 55 in hand.
Its a phenomena that happens when a coin is submitted for crossover or reconsideration: sometimes no one looks ahead to a much higher grade. I would bet this coin will end up a 61 all in at some point.
The owner will make money with it,. You have to know the market on this stuff. The pros who have popped in do not seem to have questioned the coin or price much.
Anyone know who owns the coin now?
20 years ago for Pcgs.
Of more relevance is PCGS and CAC both graded it 58 in hand in the last week.....
It is interesting to note that there has not been one close-up of this coin posted anywhere on the thread. The only photo available is the full slab photo, which can be enlarged, but still shows more of the slab than the coin. From this we are supposed to believe that coin, which appears to have a rub in the obverse fields, is a Mint State piece.
Let's get this straight. An extensive rub that seems to cover most of the coin, says "AU" to me, unless you want to go back to the 1970s when a leading retail and auction firm came up with the oxymoron, “BU light rubbing.” A coin with a rub does not repair itself over time. If it is properly stored, it says like it already is. Yet now it’s Mint State.
I find that confusing.
Isn't it odd that this is how we think of it, "58 shot 61"?
Not 58 shot 60, or what would be even better, for coins with this kind of rarity, and pricing structure, 58 shot 59.
Oh no, the next jump, if any, has to be 3 full points, or none?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
The slider to Mint State phenomenon has driven up the price of some coins, but they are still sliders. I paid the price for an 1834, Crosslet 4 Classic Head half eagle (rare coin) which had been jumped from AU-58 to MS-61. It’s still an AU-58, but I bought it because I figured I’ll never see another one which was that nice and would fit in my set.
A different example from CoinFacts:
If this is a 61, then the coin in question might be a 63. Lol
We should all post OURS and show 'em what's what !!!
The true view is finally up. You can really blow it up to see every detail. IMO the coin would be MS if dipped. Sometimes I feel high point toning is taken as wear and this may be the case. The piece has lovely skin, but has some scrapes and lines here and there. It looks cleaner than a 61, but it's no "AU 65". Besides the scrapes in the left obverse field, the is a scrape/gash at the left wing tip on the reverse.
All that said, I'd love the own the piece but not at over 36k.
Here is the Trueview
This one of the reasons why I've so much trouble filling my want list for Classic Head gold. So many pieces have been dipped and scrubbed that they look like "white gold." The worst examples have been shined like brass buttons and put into NGC MS-61 holders. I saw four of these things when I was looking for the 1839-C $2.50. Sadly one of the mantras for upgrades seems to be, scrub the coin, ruin the coin, get rewarded for doing it.
Scratches are not made of the stuff that forms toning. They are marks below the surface and into the medal. So far as Large Size Capped Bust $2.50 type coins (1821 – 1827) are concerned, dipping them could make them look worse because most of the examples are P-L. The mintages were so low that the initial shine was not worn off the dies. Dipping the surfaces bright would emphasize the scratches, not reduce them.
If shiny = Mint State then I guess there are lot more Mint State coins around than any of us knew. Those who know how to grade know that’s not true, but for the others I guess they can go live in their fantasy land.
The facet of the OP coin I enjoyed the most was the cameo effect and the lack of distractions on the bust.
For @cnncoins or anyone else who saw it in hand: which image approximates the richness and intensity of the color more closely, TrueView or GC?
How long have you been studying this series? You have very sophisticated salivary glands
Bill,
I completely agree. If it were my coin it would have stayed in the 55 OGH. I search high and low for original early gold, which is becoming impossible to find. So much so that I've had to pay multiple grades higher to acquire them.
The sad state of the market is the dipped 61-62 is bringing more than the nice 55-58 CAC pieces typically. And the people dipping are the ones looking for the quick wholesale flip. These pieces eventually sit in someone's inventory forever. I'd hope that one day the tables will turn, but how many will be left by then.
The GC images portray the coin more accurately.
After looking at the TrueView images initially, I thought I was looking at a different coin.
After reading through this, I can't help but apply a variation of an old joke by George Carlin:
(Paraphrasing): "Anyone who drives faster than me is an idiot, and anyone who drives slower than me is a moron".
So: "Anyone who pays more than me is an idiot, and anyone who thinks they can pay less than me is a moron".
Sometimes, it's better just to take notes, because by that logic, we are all someone else's idiot and/or moron.