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What's wrong with proof type?

savitalesavitale Posts: 1,406 ✭✭✭✭✭

I'm thinking of doing a proof type set. But proof type seems out of favor by most folks at the moment. Why?

Comments

  • OldIndianNutKaseOldIndianNutKase Posts: 2,700 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I collect proof type coins because they are unquestionably superior quality. But prior to about 1854 proof type coins are very rare to be to the point of being beyond the economic means of most all collectors. I have been collecting coins for 60 years and remember that proofs have always been special strikes. But date and mint mark collections by nature have to be business strikes. But who would not dream of owning the "King of Siam" proof set.

    OINK

  • I personally love proofs more than business strikes but the fact that business strikes survive by chance makes them more important to some. If all proof types came with a nice deep cameo contrast and some weren't moon money, I would rather put together that set.

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,427 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Theo1123 said:
    I personally love proofs more than business strikes but the fact that business strikes survive by chance makes them more important to some. If all proof types came with a nice deep cameo contrast and some weren't moon money, I would rather put together that set.

    No all business strikes have survived by chance. At least from the beginning of the last century, coin dealers routinely saved rolls of new coins each year that they sold to their customers in succeeding years.

    “Roll mania” really got into high gear in the late ‘50s and early 1960s. Many rolls were saved at that time, and they are traded on a speculative basis. “The Coin Dealer Newsletter” got its start in 1964 with lists of roll prices.

    Not surprisingly too many coins were saved which resulted in a glut of them on the market. I can remember club auctions in the mid 1970s when sells could only get face value for BU rolls of cents from the early 1960s. Of course the rise in the price of silver covered the dimes, quarters and half dollar prices.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • specialistspecialist Posts: 956 ✭✭✭✭✭

    To say more collectors like MS coins is not true. in fact MS pieces have been far harder. have seen many great pieces languish. Starting a proof type set today is very smart.

    seems more to do with a sluggish middle segment of the market and a marginal supply.

    you want to buy when every one is not. it won't take much to totally dry up the proof market.

  • specialistspecialist Posts: 956 ✭✭✭✭✭

    To say more collectors like MS coins is not true. in fact MS pieces have been far harder. have seen many great pieces languish. Starting a proof type set today is very smart.

    seems more to do with a sluggish middle segment of the market and a marginal supply.

    you want to buy when every one is not. it won't take much to totally dry up the proof market.

  • specialistspecialist Posts: 956 ✭✭✭✭✭

    To say more collectors like MS coins is not true. in fact MS pieces have been far harder. have seen many great pieces languish. Starting a proof type set today is very smart.

    seems more to do with a sluggish middle segment of the market and a marginal supply.

    you want to buy when every one is not. it won't take much to totally dry up the proof market.

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have always liked proof coins for their beauty....I have not made proof collecting a focus, but do pick them up from time to time.....Certainly the bulk of my coins are MS, AU, XF... and below... Cheers, RickO

  • KkathylKkathyl Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @savitale I say go for it, this might be the best time to start a Proof Type set, I think the market is going to change in the near future. We see thing changing and like @ricko says you can get many really good Proofs in various grades without breaking the bank.

    Best place to buy !
    Bronze Associate member

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,614 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There is no coin you can buy that you can guarantee you will be able to sell for more than you pay. Collect the coins YOU like. If they are ever worth anything, it's a bonus.

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    In some periods, proof coins were generally less detailed than the best circulation strikes. This is prevalent in the 1936-42, and 1950-55 eras.

  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,898 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Don't worry about what the crowd likes at the moment. Collect what YOU like.

    All glory is fleeting.
  • Almost impossible to complete the PCGS Proof Type Set, there are a few coins that are just Multimillion if you ever can buy them, like the 1804 Eagle, the 1838/1839 Eagle and the Ultra HR. Tough !

  • BryceMBryceM Posts: 11,721 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Over the years I’ve purchased plenty of “made for collector” coins. This includes classic proofs, modern bullion issues, collector SAE’s, etc. Without fail, my interest in them eventually fades and I find myself selling them. I can appreciate a pretty proof coin, especially from the 19th century...... I just don’t care to collect them.

    I’ve considered doing a set of three-cent nickels as I find that Miss Liberty design to be particularly appealing. What stops me is the necessary inclusion of proofs for those years when no business strikes were made.

    But..... as others have said, collect what YOU like. :)

  • EagleEyeEagleEye Posts: 7,676 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What's wrong with proof type is the habit of valuing all coins for a certain type by the last sale of any common date of that type in auction. If one coin has a problem and sold cheap at auction, the lower price creates a perceived weakness when reported as "the market" price.

    Prices for most PR62-PR64 type are where prices were for "Proof" in the late 1970's. These are the type of quality you got if you wanted a decent coin. What are graded PR65 and PR66 were the exceptional coins and were rarely encountered by most collectors.

    Seems like a great place to collect, maybe not for investment purposes, though.

    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
  • ldhairldhair Posts: 7,111 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have been doing both Proof and MS for many years. It made things more interesting.

    Larry

  • OverdateOverdate Posts: 6,902 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BryceM said:
    I’ve considered doing a set of three-cent nickels as I find that Miss Liberty design to be particularly appealing. What stops me is the necessary inclusion of proofs for those years when no business strikes were made.

    Why "necessary"? Many people collect business strikes only, even if it means leaving some date/mm combinations out. The reverse is also true, collectors of proof Gold and Silver Eagles don't add uncirculated 2009 coins to "complete" their sets.

    My Adolph A. Weinman signature :)

  • BryceMBryceM Posts: 11,721 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It bugs me “Just because”....... no better reason than that. The OCD in me wants a nice tidy set.

  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,891 ✭✭✭✭✭

    In addition to the comments made by others, I'll point out that proof type has always been especially popular with newbies and investors. (Low mintages make the prices easy to understand, and the coins are pretty.) So considering that our market has not been attracting a lot of newbies and investors for the past decade, it's not surprising that proof type has been especially hard hit.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,427 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Over the last couple of years there has been a tremendous amount of dark ugly proof type that came back on the market starting a very large downward trend.

    One of the problems iwth grading these pieces is that the services put high numbers on them even when the toning has killed the Proof mirrors. To me there is nothing better than an original surfaced toned Proof coin with the the mirrors showing up strongly under really attractive colors. Those are premium coins that are worth far more than the pieces where the darkness has killed the surfaces and more than the white pieces that have most often been dipped. Still the grading numbers don't refect that. To me a PR-64 that has a couple of hairlines is better than a "dead" overly toned piece with no hairlines.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • ProofmorganProofmorgan Posts: 707 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think many factors are at play here, but I'll comment on a few. I personally started collecting proof type and phased out at a loss.

    1.). High survival rare vs. mintage
    2.) Low mintage
    3.) Wide/high price range (a hairline/number grade difference is worth thousands on some.)
    4.) Many are dipped or lack originality or even too original (dark toned).
    5.) Less variability
    6.) Gradeflation on proofs

    I personally collected proof morgans for some time, but it quickly faded due to the lack of true original coins that were beautifully toned and the abundant low end pieces. Also a decrease in demand made the outlook seem poor. Any nice original toned proof is typically in the high end grades making them hard to afford. Dipped or hairlines pieces are everywhere (even CAC).

    Collector of Original Early Gold with beginnings in Proof Morgan collecting.
  • rheddenrhedden Posts: 6,567 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looking at proof Seated material, it's my opinion that gradeflation has hit these coins rather hard. Today's PR65 (and even some PR66) coins were in 64 holders not too long ago. Considering there is a steep decline in price as grade drops, it's not surprising that price guide levels continue to decrease. Some people see the decreasing prices and they do not want to jump on a falling market until it bottoms out, so interest has waned. Just my opinion.

    There may also be a public perception that it's "easy" to put together sets of classic proofs because they're always available. Not so. Most of the coins available are either overgraded or have poor eye appeal. It takes some work to locate really nice, accurately graded pre-1916 proof silver coins.

    I bought a couple dozen really pretty toned Seated and Barber proofs in the past two years, and they have continued to drop in price. So I have curtailed my buying too. I will keep these coins and wait.

  • GazesGazes Posts: 2,315 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @specialist said:
    To say more collectors like MS coins is not true. in fact MS pieces have been far harder. have seen many great pieces languish. Starting a proof type set today is very smart.

    seems more to do with a sluggish middle segment of the market and a marginal supply.

    you want to buy when every one is not. it won't take much to totally dry up the proof market.

    Specialist---is your opinion the same as it was about a year ago? Thanks

  • GazesGazes Posts: 2,315 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 4, 2018 12:34PM

    @privaterarecoincollector said:
    Almost impossible to complete the PCGS Proof Type Set, there are a few coins that are just Multimillion if you ever can buy them, like the 1804 Eagle, the 1838/1839 Eagle and the Ultra HR. Tough !

    Privaterarecoincollector----you asked what to collect---listen to yourself!

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 4, 2018 12:26PM

    @specialist said:
    To say more collectors like MS coins is not true. in fact MS pieces have been far harder. have seen many great pieces languish. Starting a proof type set today is very smart.

    seems more to do with a sluggish middle segment of the market and a marginal supply.

    you want to buy when every one is not. it won't take much to totally dry up the proof market.

    @specialist said:
    To say more collectors like MS coins is not true. in fact MS pieces have been far harder. have seen many great pieces languish. Starting a proof type set today is very smart.

    seems more to do with a sluggish middle segment of the market and a marginal supply.

    you want to buy when every one is not. it won't take much to totally dry up the proof market.

    @specialist said:
    To say more collectors like MS coins is not true. in fact MS pieces have been far harder. have seen many great pieces languish. Starting a proof type set today is very smart.

    seems more to do with a sluggish middle segment of the market and a marginal supply.

    you want to buy when every one is not. it won't take much to totally dry up the proof market.

    LOL, You made a very good point.

    Unfortunately, most proof Type I see are coins that were once just called: "Impaired." Original Proofs are rare. Go for it! Additionally, several long-time collectors (all dead) have told me that if they could do it all over, they would have done a Type Set. None commented on MS or PR so I suspect MS would have been their preference.

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Proof type coins can be an excellent way to build a collection of coins with the best possible design detail. The exceptions are 1936-42 and 1950-54. During these years proof dies were frequently over polished to begin with and re-polishing only further reduced details. Fully detailed circulation strike coins are available for those who are patient.

  • PhilLynottPhilLynott Posts: 880 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I buy either for my type set. I prefer MS coins but like mentioned above some series getting the high end MS coin is multiples more expensive than the proof version.

    One other negative for me being a mostly online buyer. It’s tough to get a great feel for how a proof will look in hand through pictures. Nice clear mirrors are vital and glamour shots can hide things and you are left rolling the dice.

  • fiftysevenerfiftysevener Posts: 896 ✭✭✭✭

    I love proofs also but cannot afford gem coins in the classic series. I find these early moderns to be affordable and very attractive with the Lincolns however being very elusive this nice.



  • keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I hope for the sake of collectors like myself that the demand for this segment of the Hobby continues to fall. it will make coins more affordable.

  • oldabeintxoldabeintx Posts: 1,579 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Working on proof type now. Something I dreamed about as a kid when these were out of reach. Not a matter of preference, just moving sideways from my MS set. My heirs may not be happy that the market is weak, but I am.

  • SeatedTonersSeatedToners Posts: 392 ✭✭✭✭

    I started working on a proof set of Seated coins last year. I see them come up in auction frequently, but many are blast white and look to have been dipped in the past or darkly toned with dull surfaces. I'm trying to build a set of colorfully toned coins, in PF65/66, and trying to find them in that grade, with color toning, and still highly reflective surfaces is quite a challenge.

    Part of the fun is researching the auction records and reviewing images in Coin Facts to see how many of the coins have been resubmitted. There's some years when you have True Views for proof coins and you can clearly tell its the same coin submitted 4 or 5 times looking for an upgrade.

    I think proof coins will perform well in the future though. The prices have come down substantially over the past few years, but as a previous commenter noted, most of the coins that you can find out there have lower grades, dull surfaces, or unattractive toning. I think prices for pieces with eye appeal will pick up and turn out to be a good buy at todays prices. At least I hope it works out that way.

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,060 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @mannie gray said:
    I don't know why, but when things are out of favor, usually it's a good time to buy.
    Maybe I should have said "sometimes" a good time to buy.

    I think generic classic commemoratives are still waiting for their time to shine...

  • oldabeintxoldabeintx Posts: 1,579 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cameonut2011 said:
    It's out of favor because I own some. If I own it, prices will fall. I call it Cameonut's Theorem.

    Join the club.

  • @cameonut2011 said:
    It's out of favor because I own some. If I own it, prices will fall. I call it Cameonut's Theorem.

    I find the opposite to be true. Once I like something and start to collect it, it seems everyone else does too, so the prices shoot up, and I can't afford to collect it anymore.

  • ElcontadorElcontador Posts: 7,412 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Supergrade PF Liberty Nickels are more available and less expensive than their business strike counterparts. You'll find more toners as well. That said, I don't know how gradeflation has affected these coins.

    "Vou invadir o Nordeste,
    "Seu cabra da peste,
    "Sou Mangueira......."

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