Buffalo experts, need your grading opinion

opportunity

I am terrible at grading these. I've seen MS62's that I thought were XF and vice versa. . Also, is this a mint made lamination?

cmerlo1

AU-50, lamination.

gonzer

1918 over 7, extra feather on forehead. Nice!

Insider2

This is called a "White Elephant." A rare coin with problems.

Jimnight

Nice 1918 over 7.

amwldcoin

Won't grade in a normal holder...has to be submitted as an error to get a straight grade!

acloco

Unreal. An 18/7 D struck thru error?

opportunity

@amwldcoin said:
Won't grade in a normal holder...has to be submitted as an error to get a straight grade!

That's what I was wondering. So it would come back Genuine if I sent it in by express? But a straight grade with a notation of the error if I sent it through the (much slower) mint error service?

opportunity

@acloco said:
Unreal. An 18/7 D struck thru error?

Struck thru or lamination? Hmm, interesting.

amwldcoin

Yes!

PS It's definitely a lamination.

@opportunity said:

@amwldcoin said:
Won't grade in a normal holder...has to be submitted as an error to get a straight grade!

That's what I was wondering. So it would come back Genuine if I sent it in by express? But a straight grade with a notation of the error if I sent it through the (much slower) mint error service?

opportunity

@amwldcoin said:
Yes!

PS It's definitely a lamination.

@opportunity said:

@amwldcoin said:
Won't grade in a normal holder...has to be submitted as an error to get a straight grade!

That's what I was wondering. So it would come back Genuine if I sent it in by express? But a straight grade with a notation of the error if I sent it through the (much slower) mint error service?

Sweet...how do you think it would effect the value (negatively or positively?)

amwldcoin

Definitely negatively.

lkeigwin

Assuming it's a lamination error (I think so too) then you have to submit it as a "mint error" in order to get a straight grade. Any other service will wind up in a genuine holder.
Lance.

opportunity

Glad I could clarify that. Looks like errors are limited to 20k in value. What does one do if the value is more than that? Say this coin were a gem BU otherwise, or it's fooling you all and it's really a 62

BuffaloIronTail

It looks like a Lamination, but the black part has me stumped. That's a real nice over date otherwise. Nice bold date and visible die crack by the knot. Judging by how LIBERTY is beginning to merge into the field, and the abundance of flow marks, it looks to be a late die state obverse.

I think it will go AU-53.

Pete

crazyhounddog

Tough to tell rub from images but I would be inclined to go ms with lamanation. If rub 58. It should straight grade.
Now, where in the world did you find this? Please do tell
Edited to say I'm with Pete. That black stuff has me stumped too.

opportunity

I think the black stuff is rather enhanced by the pics but is definitely there. The coin looks more of a natural gray color than my lousy cell phone pics. Anyway, why don't we be ridiculous for a moment and compare it to this dark sided 62

BruceS

If you squint and block out the lamination I can see it almost go MS. If not a 58 all day imo, nice buff.

opportunity

Trying some different lighting techniques

koynekwest

I'm with Chris and Pete on this one-a lamination and somewhat of an advanced die state. The second one pictured is a REALLY late die state, hence the grade. I think it would best be submitted as an error with that lamination. I've seen laminations with that dark stuff (carbon?) a number of times and I think that's the impurity in the alloy that caused the lamination in the first place

amwldcoin

Since I got a snide PM from the OP poster...would any of you guys pay XF-AU or Unc money for it???

opportunity

@amwldcoin said:
Since I got a snide PM from the OP poster...would any of you guys pay XF-AU or Unc money for it???

To be fair, also ask them if they'd pay over 40,000 for the other coin I posted above.

amwldcoin

What does that have to do with the price of beans in China??? 2 totally different animals!

@opportunity said:

@amwldcoin said:
Since I got a snide PM from the OP poster...would any of you guys pay XF-AU or Unc money for it???

To be fair, also ask them if they'd pay over 40,000 for the other coin I posted above.

mannie gray

@amwldcoin said:
Since I got a snide PM from the OP poster...would any of you guys pay XF-AU or Unc money for it???

For me, it would be difficult to value and put a price on.
I probably wouldn't touch it,
If I were to make a (purely hypothetical) offer on this coin, it would be very conservative as I think it would be difficult to move.

ChrisH821

Cool coin that's out of my ballpark regardless of how it grades. To me it looks AU, probably 55 or 58 but I'm also terrible at grading these. I sent in a 37-D 3 leg that I thought would go 58 and it came back 62. Have another there now that I hope to see a 55 out of.

koynekwest

I think that lamination is horribly distracting and would guess it would diminish it's value by at least a third.

davewesen

nice coin

what is the notch on the obverse rim near 11:30?

I can not tell what the luster is like. There seem to be plenty of small nicks on the cheek, lips and rim. I would be surprised if it went MS, even if it is. I could see it in a AU slab possibly even XF.

Nice find, unless you paid $30K for it. I would submit it with a value of something under $20K under error submission,

ricko

I agree with the lamination call.... and likely an AU58....Where did you find this? Surprised it is not already in plastic.... Cheers, RickO

Danye West

I'd call it an AU-53

FredWeinberg

Looks like a lamination from the photos.

And as mentioned above, if you send it in on
the Mint Error tier, it should straight grade.

clarkbar04

Based on the 2nd set of photos it looks UNC to me. Anybody looking for this high grade of an example of that overdate would IMO view the lamination as a distraction.

OnWithTheHunt

Not an expert by any stretch but I do collect Buffalos and Buffalo varieties avidly. Agree with koynekwest and others that the lamination is very distracting and would diminish the value. Can't tell from photo, but if there is some grit or dirt that collected in the lamination area, acetone may remove it and improve the appearance.

BillJones

By the first set of photos I'd say MS-62 / AU-58 with a notation for the lamination as a mint error. I see a tiny rub on the Indian's cheek, but that could also be a dull spot from envelope storage.

I'm sorry, but that lamination really knocks a lot off the value in my opinion. To me the market value would be in Choice VF range, but I might be overly harsh. If I were in the market for a 1918-D 8 over 7, that would be a big problem for me.

grip

Looks more like glue than lamination. I would try the acetone nothing to lose
all to gain.

Insider2

THIS: @koynekwest said: "I've seen laminations with that dark stuff (carbon?) a number of times and I think that's the impurity in the alloy that caused the lamination in the first place."

Whatever the "black stuff is" (I don't think anyone has ever analyzed it before as it occurs on Morgan dollars also.) it was probably rolled into the strip and became part of the struck coin. I write this due to the microscopic internal structure of the debris into the metal. Then, the impurity peels away from the struck coin leaving the "lamination" error.

@OnWithTheHunt said: "Not an expert by any stretch but I do collect Buffalos and Buffalo varieties avidly. Agree with koynekwest and others that the lamination is very distracting and would diminish the value."

Absolutely. However, this is bad practice: "...if there is some grit or dirt that collected in the lamination area, acetone may remove it and improve the appearance."

The substance inside the lamination is what caused the problem. I have conserved these coins and can say with 100% accuracy that it is best for 99.99% of the dealers/collectors who have them not to touch them with anything at all. There are chemicals that will remove the black. Then you are left with an unattractive "hole" on the coin. Usually we leave some of the impurity behind so the coin appears natural and original! I have NEVER, EVER seen any one of these "fixed" by anyone but one other person that has not been ruined by very crude spot removal attempts combined with chemicals. Please trust me on this. So, don't touch the coin and I would NOT send it into any exclusively coin conservation service at this time.

As I wrote before, you have a very desirable coin with a very detracting problem. It is only worth what some numismatist would pay (yours is out of my price range but I love it!). The "White Elephant" 1955/55 in my collection is heavily damaged on the obverse and slightly bent. Nevertheless, all the diagnostics on the obverse are plain to see. The reverse is AU showing all the diagnostic die polish. Back when I purchased it these coins were between $400 and $500 for choice AU's. I got it for around $75 bucks. It has been worth every penny for what it is used for! Will it ever be easy to sell? NO! Who wants a "White Elephant?"

PS IMO your coin is not MS.

opportunity

Acetone, eh. I'm a little scared. What if it reveals something gnarly underneath? I do have some, guess I could try a fast dip and rub with my fingers? Any suggestions?

koynekwest

No-don't run b it at all. In spite of the lamination it's still a very desirable coin-one that I'd love to own (if I could afford it, that is.)