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coin22lover
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Deleted by 3rd party request...sorry, don't blame the messenger.
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The first coin has a fair amount of apparent wear. The second coin was bluntly struck with some detail missing from the beginning. I can see some detail similarities, but the second piece has more micro detail if you look at it carefully.
Second, if you dipped the first coin, I don't think you would get a result like the second coin. I think that you end up with an ugly coin with blotchy toning.
I can see your point, but if you really look st the two pieces, you will see they are not same.
Look at the wear on the cheek and neck of the first example that is not there on the second.
As I study the two half dollars and "plate match" them I see evidence that says they are the same coin. For example, both obverse photos have what appears to be the same die mark (flaw, break, or light scratch) from the upper chest into the field pointing in the direction of the top of the second star. The "lighter toning" around the stars on both coins matches up pretty well also.
I agree that the lighter colored coin was lightly cleaned or dipped. The lighter colored toning on the cheek of the darker coin likely disappeared with the cleaning or dipping. My theory is that the lighter toning on the high points came from these being pressed against a plastic slide (like on a Wayte Raymond holder or other album) or an envelope, trapping the air so the high points didn't tone like the rest of the coin.
The cleaning or dipping makes it much harder to plate match as many of the "marks" on the coin in the darker photo went away.
I wish I could see the mark under the eagle's left wing that looks like a "hit" to the coin under the left wing of the cleaned or dipped coin.
It would be better to have the coin in hand and be able to put a glass on it....
All in all I think odds are good that they are the same coin. Anyway, my two-cents worth. Thanks @coin22lover for posting this.
W. David Perkins Numismatics - http://www.davidperkinsrarecoins.com/ - 25+ Years ANA, ANS, NLG, NBS, LM JRCS, LSCC, EAC, TAMS, LM CWTS, CSNS, FUN
I think the North denticles on the reverse are enough to make it clear they aren't the same coin. Possibly the same die variety, (I don't see a smoking gun)...but not the same coin.
@TommyType posted, "I think the North denticles on the reverse are enough to make it clear they aren't the same coin. Possibly the same die variety, (I don't see a smoking gun)...but not the same coin."
When I compare the two photos it appears to me that the darker half dollar is "raw" and the lighter version is in a slab with "prongs" covering some of the north dentils / denticles. Maybe this is why the dentils look different in the two photos?
W. David Perkins Numismatics - http://www.davidperkinsrarecoins.com/ - 25+ Years ANA, ANS, NLG, NBS, LM JRCS, LSCC, EAC, TAMS, LM CWTS, CSNS, FUN
Not unreasonable. Those are very similar coins for a 30 point grading difference!
No, as the OP points out, the darker coin is in an NGC holder, and the lighter coin is in a PCGS holder though there is a mask around it.
Other tell-tale area is the lower earlobe. Darker coin is worn flat, the lighter one has a significant crease.
Fair point (looking like a flat strike on the lower earlobe). As I noted, it would be much easier if we had the coin or one of the coins "in hand!"
The line going from Liberty's upper chest to the field might be a light clash mark vs. a "flaw, break, or light scratch" as I noted earlier. Two coins could be struck with the same clash / similar die state). A 10X glass looking at this would help. I also don't have my Overton book handy.
W. David Perkins Numismatics - http://www.davidperkinsrarecoins.com/ - 25+ Years ANA, ANS, NLG, NBS, LM JRCS, LSCC, EAC, TAMS, LM CWTS, CSNS, FUN
At a quick glance, I can also see a few matching marks. Most likely from the die. And I can see where one could think these are close cousin, where one had a little harder life.
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Same die pair, different dies. The dark one is clearly more heavily worn, although not by much. Look at the hair around the ear.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Obviously they are both the same die marriage. A spectacular one at that. R5 O.107, aka "No serifs on E" (and the right leg of A). Wonderful coins. I looked for years before finding a VF35 I liked, for several thousand dollars.
They are not the same coin. The die mark from the upper chest toward star 2 is characteristic of the marriage.
The NGC coin is seriously undergraded at VF20. XF is more like it.
It wouldn't surprise me at all if coin22lover found yet another cherry pick. I'm getting a little numb to coin22lover's successes.
Lance.
They are the same Overton # but different conditions.
Of course you weren't being unreasonable, heck they both have a lady on the front and an eagle on the back!
I agree. You can see a difference in detail left.
I agree--the VF20 is seriously undergraded....the second coin may be a tad overgraded......
Nope. They are not IMO
I agree with this, when I studied the coin before any responses I saw the differences in the denticles on the R between E in UNITED and T in STATES. On the P50, there appears to be a ridge in the middle of each denticle within that area, that does not seem to be on the VF coin. But, it could be a trick of the light between the images as well, so WDP might also be correct on this one - not completely definitive. Need to see in hand.
Best, SH
The detail that they both have (which could mean the same die) on the reverse is the gap in the top loop of the S in Pluribus.... along with the third star on the obverse left, having a 'line' to the denticle.... Cheers, RickO
Well for the record, I have confirmation they're not the same coin, but I thought you all would find this to be a very interesting comparison. The darker one re-graded P-25 which still seems undergraded to me (will post a slab pic soon). When I first saw the 2, I just knew for sure they were the same coin!
Just a thought. Some of the confusion relates directly to the coins being in plastic slabs, and especially to the prongs or gaskets holding the coin in place. My experiences indicate that many coins look very different when free from the optical distortions, contrast degradation and multiple reflections produces by plastic holders.
I thought at least 30 for the Top. There are way worse in 20/25 holders from both services.
The VF20 looks more like a a 30 to me....
Why the deleted original post?
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
3rd party request..sorry about that.
3rd party? As in "board member collector", "board member dealer", or "grading service"?
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
It makes me wonder if the NGC coin was silently net graded for some reason.
Sounds like it was an interesting thread.
@Coinstartled said: "Sounds like it was an interesting thread."
Two different coins from the same die were imaged. They were graded in slabs. It was like a GTG thing as we commented on the grades assigned. One or both of the owners probably requested that the images be removed.
Gives me an idea for a new discussion about copyrights.
It was a comparison of two sets of photos, NGC VF20 and PCGS AU50, and wondering if they were the same coin.
Since it was an educational post, fair use would likely apply, but it's still nice to honor a request.