Options
How many years in numismatics does it take to become an expert..
Coinstartled
Posts: 10,135 ✭✭✭✭✭
...in a given category....maybe two or three?
I have heard that it takes 8 years of serious work to master a musical instrument.
Is that reasonable in coins?
0
Comments
Malcolm Gladwell's book, Outliers, has references to many people in many areas, but not coins. The general consensus is 10,000 hours which is roughly 10 years.
Funny thing is that I've been on these boards for 11 years from when I first came across TPGs and collecting again and recently I found my perspectives changed, a lot.
With today's reassurance methods, expertise is no longer needed. It can be purchased.
So it is reasonable that after 10,000 hours, one could select coins and have confidence that their grading skills are well honed?
10,000 hours? Maybe. But also depends upon God given talent and one's powers of observation. I've seen people who have been collectors for years, who still don't seem to catch on to some aspects of the hobby. Some of those people were dealers.
Rent a table at a local coin show for $25. Stand on the dealer side. You are an "instant expert."
I was pretty good at WE BUY GOLD and that was about all one needed to know in the 1980's.
I've seen dealers and collectors that have been doing it for 30 years that are far from experts so I guess it depends.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Tiger Woods could have beaten you in golf when he was 8.
And my 8 year old Rottweiler could beat him now!
LOL
8 to 10 years at 40 plus hours per week sounds about right.
I have mastered a couple of subjects in that time frame.
Still trying to master a few other things as well.
I've recently heard the 10K hours figure cited somewhere so that may be in a "newly published" book. I'm too lazy to look and being lazy is not something suited to anyone trying to become regarded as an expert. Anyway, the date that book was written is relevant because IMO, it is much easier to become an expert in a chosen coin type (Early Dimes for example) than it was decades ago because of the Internet, speciality clubs, and new publications.
With this disclaimer: There is no such thing as a true "expert" if the chosen field is big enough (for example, I've just eliminated Coiled Hair Stellas) as there is ALWAYS something to learn. As a way to enjoy my hobby, I've been looking at coins for decades using a stereomicroscope at powers from 7X - 40X (on occasion up to 80X) and I can truthfully write that at least once every few weeks I see something to photograph on a coin that I've never seen before!
So I'll disagree on that10K figure. I did some calculations. With continuous study, working full-time in the "right" environment along with several mentors, access to a library, and the Internet, I believe that a very motivated person can reach the expert level in a chosen denomination in about four years or less if he/she has the "talent," brains, and observation skills. AFAIK, the TPGS (for example) are training new experts at this very minute to replace the older experts in due time.
Definition of expert certainly does not suggest that their is nothing else to learn. If anything it means that they know where to look.
I would say at least 100 years.
@Coinstartled
Speaking of experts...We did something rather novel on another site. Something similar can be done here on CU. Take the number of points a member has and divide it by the number of his posts and you'll get a %. Kicking out the members who post a lot and thus would have very low % in spite of their expertise (most also have 5 stars), gives us a good idea of their knowledge and the amount they share. Hate to embarrass you but 68+% is probably very near one of the best on CU.
PS Waiting to go to dinner when the wife gets ready and time on my hands
Sadly most of those points came from bickering with Justacommeman on the sports forum.
65%.
eBay ID-bruceshort978
Successful BST:here and ATS, bumanchu, wdrob, hashtag, KeeNoooo, mikej61, Yonico, Meltdown, BAJJERFAN, Excaliber, lordmarcovan, cucamongacoin, robkool, bradyc, tonedcointrader, mumu, Windycity, astrotrain, tizofthe, overdate, rwyarmch, mkman123, Timbuk3,GBurger717, airplanenut, coinkid855 ,illini420, michaeldixon, Weiss, Morpheus, Deepcoin, Collectorcoins, AUandAG, D.Schwager.
"How many years in numismatics does it take to become an expert.."
I've been studying numismatics since 1962 so . . .
55 years!
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
44 years collecting coins here and an eager student rather than an expert.
By "expert" do you mean a community recognized expert or the people that are experts in their own mind (not directed at you)? I would argue that this determination is based on recognized accomplishments and not merely time. You can be doing the same thing incorrectly for several decades.
Some newbie dealers/collectors consider themselves "experts" from the start...
Some who have been dealers/collectors for 20+ years would never call themselves an "expert" as there is always more to learn...
No set number of years, required. But, be careful of people calling themselves experts... usually that is a title that is put on a real expert by others.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
It depends on how active you are within that time. If you spend a lot of time going to shows, examining your specialties, communicating with others, etc, you will become an expert relatively fast. If instead you read one book about it every year, it will take you a while.
YN Member of the ANA, ANS, NBS, EAC, C4, MCA, PNNA, CSNS, ILNA, TEC, and more!
Always buying numismatic literature and sample slabs.
Specifically I mean the confidence and expertise to buy an expensive rare coin without the aid of a mentor or independent third party grader.
All it really takes is confidence and money.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
OMG I feel like in a kindergarten on this subject and could not wait to graduate if there is such thing. I've learnt a lot already by being a new member in this community. The material of knowledge by your first hand experience is mind boggling. Thank you all.
@Coinstartled posted: "Specifically I mean the confidence and expertise to buy an expensive rare coin without the aid of a mentor or independent third party grader."
I would NOT consider that person to be an expert. I'd call him merely a knowledgeable collector.
ask OwenSeymour, I'm sure he can tell you the correct answer based on his experience.
Gladwell's premise was not focusing on the "years since started" but rather the amount of time dedicated to serious study. If one studied, worked, practiced, etc for 8 hours a day (as in a full-time job), then that equates to about 5 years.
Five years of vigilant study combined with some inherent ability can lead to expertise in a field, according to Gladwell. Five years of drooling behind a table, sucking down hot dogs, and being angry at people, doesn't necessary lead to expertise.
Outliers is a good book and worth the time to read.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
I have always believed that 2 years of dedicated, focused study on a subject can make you an expert, relative to other people in the same field who do not do that. Some things would be more, some less.
First of all, we need to define 'expert'. So far, we just have opinions and theory. Do we mean and expert in one coin type? I.E. IHC"S? Do we mean in VAM's? Or do we mean skilled in all U.S. coins? There are people who specialize in one type of coin, and have for years. Yet those same people will tell you they know nothing (or very little) about other types of coins. Are they an expert? As you can see, such a label is general, an may be applied in different manners to different skills. Such as a medical specialist that deals only with eye surgery. If I have a question about IHC's, I would likely ask Rick Snow. However, I would not ask him about dimes, for that I would likely go to DIMEMAN... So be careful, there are likely many 'experts' here, probably a lot more 'generalists' though.... and if we are talking about numismatics as a whole, well, I am sure there are one or two around who are close to 'expert'....and while expert or not, they would be great resources. Cheers, RickO
Time spent is one of many factors, but is far from the most important one. Intelligence, natural aptitude, dedication, social connections, personality, exposure to coins, research, visual acuity, business acumen, charisma, and the ability to effectively communicate are all essential to being held in esteem as an expert. Some are naturally gifted, some work harder than others, and some lack the necessary social skills to ever make it.
Certain very young fellows are world-class experts in their area of specialty and some old-timers are ignorant and hopelessly opinionated.
The confidence comes from knowledge and experience.
So one not need to be an expert to wisely buy an expensive raw coin unaided by other opinions. The knowledgeable collector can possess competency at a lesser level.
That is the answer I was looking for!
If a person is curious, has the ability to access research materials and then comprehend what they contain, one is able to learn about just about anything. Anything worth doing is worth doing poorly until a person is confident and skilled enough to do it well. Repetition is the mother of learning. "A wise person learns from other's mistakes- a lucky person learns from their own- a foolish person learns from neither" (not my wisdom, and not sure of whom to attribute that quote). As others have mentioned in this thread, expertise can be measured in a multitude of different ways. This is a superb place to practice wisdom.
Or naivety and ignorance...
A life time.
Certainly false confidence may be a result of ignorance. Itzhak Perlman though can tell the difference between a Stradivarius and a Yamaha.
The focus is on hours vs. years, but he does mention 10 years as a an example. I should have been more clear that 10,000 hours equates to 10 years at roughly 20 hrs per week, but I figured people would understand that the relationship between hours and years.
Specifically, 10,000 hours can be achieved in 10 years at 4 hrs per day not including Sat and Sun or 2 weeks of vacation per year. Of course there are other ways to do the math.
5 years was used in the Beatles example from 1960 to 1964. But yes, you have to work to improve.
I recommend everyone on my team read it and practice to improve.
An apprentice for over 50 years. Hope to die that way.
Numismatics are not nearly as complex as hand surgery. That takes what, a dozen years to get right.
No finalizer in the OR.
Of course. I had complete confidence before I turned 10, and I was definitely not expert in anything.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
First of all, we need to define 'expert'. So far, we just have opinions and theory. Do we mean and expert in one coin type? I.E. IHC"S? Do we mean in VAM's? Or do we mean skilled in all U.S. coins?
The OP stated, "in a given category." I incorrectly took that to mean a specific category of numismatics = IHC.
Reading the posts it should possibly refer to EITHER the limited field or the entire field of numismatics.
PS I too broke down the 10K hours into work days only to come up with five years or less for a specific field rather than all of numismatics.
I will not hijack the thread but that opens us to the difference between a generalist and a specialist and which is "better." LOL Let's save that for another thread when this one dies.
...how long does it take for a flipper to get their order from the Mint and then list ? That's how long.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
Seeing the 'future' could make you an expert in 1 day
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
The general consensus is 10,000 hours which is roughly 10 years.
that would be five years.
40 hours/week X 52 weeks x 5 years = 10,400 hours
even as a high school graduate in the early 70's the general consensus was that five years experience in the Machining Industry was standard, and most apprenticeships are around four years. my oldest son will be getting his Journeyman's card from the Local Plumbers Union next month after a four year apprenticeship.
with all that said, I don't really believe that this scenario is applicable in Numismatics. someone may be able to run a retail service after only months if they are adept at assembling all the currently available data, are savvy with Youtube/Twitter/Facebook/etc. and have extensive IT knowledge, but there's more to it than that, much more.
Capt Henway is the ideal expert of both scholarly knowledge and practical market expertise; Bill Jones has both too, but I don't think he has written a book the way Capt Henway has; Roger B is the paragon of the scholarly expert and writer. Fred Weinberg is an expert's expert with both kinds of knowledge. There are six or eight others here, regulars who would fit either one category or the other, mostly practical market experts.
Trying to define these diverse skills and experiences simply by time expended is an incredibly poor yardstick.
An "expert" can understand, analyze, correlate and interpret data, and answer most questions in a specific field of knowledge. The same expert also knows when to refer the question to others.
I.e., What is known is accurate and complete; what is unknown is admitted and referred to the knowing.
Thus, an expert has a compilation of accurate, correlated data and information that produces coherent, reasonably complete responses to inquiries.
An expert knows when to say "I don't know."
I agree with Roger. "An "expert" can understand, analyze, correlate and interpret data, and answer most questions in a specific field of knowledge. The same expert also knows when to refer the question to others.
I.e., What is known is accurate and complete; what is unknown is admitted and referred to the knowing. Thus, an expert has a compilation of accurate, correlated data and information that produces coherent, reasonably complete responses to inquiries. An expert knows when to say "I don't know."
So, as a wanabe expert....I don't know.
I think it really depends on how those 10k hours were spent. Were you looking at pictures of coins or actually handling them yourself? Were you consistently talking with and absorbing information from experienced and reputable people in the hobby, or reading internet blogs and accepting what you see as truth without doing the research yourself? I consider myself a novice despite spending a lot of time on one series of coins. I also try my best to befriend the more seasoned collectors/dealers in the field and learn what I can from them. After all, that is one of the things that makes this hobby fun.