We’ve had a lot of grading questions and discussions on the boards today. (The wheel spins round and round!)
But it occurred to me that as a collector, we really have two different tasks. They can be closely related....but they really are quite different:
Step 1) Grade the coin.
For some, that might be as simple as reading the grade on the holder, (no judging!)
Some use a lifetime of experience and knowledge, and carefully assign grades based on that.
Some use a mental comparison of the last 5 coins they saw in the same grade with the current one. Nothing wrong with that....(It’s kind of the essence of grading anyway....)
Step 2) Decide if you want to OWN the coin.
A coin you believe is properly graded doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a coin you would plunk your money down for.
A coin you believe is over graded might still catch your interest....for the right price.
A coin you believe is under graded might make you buy, even if you don’t like it, because you think you can flip it!
I think that, in some ways, decision #2 has become the more important one. In practice, the grading services have taken over the grading question, like it or not. And coins tend to sell at their assigned grades, even when we don’t agree with those grades. (Just try to buy a TPG MS-64 for the MS-63 money you graded it at. It usually doesn’t work).
So, in the case of this coin, my contention is:
Step 1) Sure, AU-50 might be an acceptable grade. Someone will eventually buy it.
Step 2) If I were looking for a coin in this grade, and of this date or type.....I'd pass on this one. Without actually LOOKING for a coin of this date, I'm guessing better, more pleasing, less questionable examples exist. PASS....Walk to next table.
That shows if you take a technical coin down enough maybe cac will like it. On some coins that does not help, what would you rather have an AU 58 HR Saint cac or an MS62 without with the numbers game that drives all the bottom line buyers?
@logger7 said: "That shows if you take a technical coin down enough maybe cac will like it. On some coins that does not help, what would you rather have an AU 58 HR Saint cac or an MS62 without with the numbers game that drives all the bottom line buyers?"
Unfair question I think. I don't know the value of the two coins but it seems the one in the 62 slab would be worth more money so I'll take that one. Did I make the right choice?
The coin has BIG TIME rub (flat gray areas on high points - especially right leg and knee) and not that much luster remaining in the fields. That's a 45-55 type of coin. No way a 58 or higher. AU50 seems like a fair net grade. In the old days, I think this coin would have body bagged.
So a light cleaning that is hardly noticeable gets bagged and this thing that looks like the cat played with it gets graded and a bean. Well we're all human..... I guess...
Seems to me the pieces mentioned or shown here are scarce to rare, and that may be why they are getting some form(s) of special consideration from the TPGs. Shouldn't be that way, but...
Yes, the rumor made the rounds that ANACS had given this coin a net grade for cleaning in the past.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
I bet CAC would buy the coin and remove the sticker if given the opportunity.
@billjones: What point are you trying to make a point about CAC with this coin? I agree this coin has issues and is not consistent with the quality that I would expect from the CAC brand.
If true, and it appears you have done some research, do you have an opinion as to why ANY member (NOT YOU BILL as I don't wish to offend you further) would do this? Is it a ego thing to indicate a member knows more about coins than the TPGS?
Said member would rather focus on the few exceptions than recognize the myriad of correct grades. And with each negative post, he throws our host under the bus at the same time. I have to wonder if his days here are numbered...
@tradedollarnut said: If true, and it appears you have done some research, do you have an opinion as to why ANY member (NOT YOU BILL as I don't wish to offend you further) would do this? Is it a ego thing to indicate a member knows more about coins than the TPGS?
Said member would rather focus on the few exceptions than recognize the myriad of correct grades. And with each negative post, he throws our host under the bus at the same time. I have to wonder if his days here are numbered...
There is no definitive correct grade for a coin, only a host of subjective (albeit informed) opinions. I don't see how @BillJones posting coins like this for discussion is throwing anyone under the bus. You sure seem to be touchy about the subject, or delusional about the reality that grades on slabs (and shiny little green stickers) are just opinions -- nothing more!
-Brandon -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins] -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
@brg5658 said: "There is no definitive correct grade for a coin, only a host of subjective (albeit informed) opinions."
I pulled back my initial "disagree" to your comment above. Actually, there is a correct grade for any round piece of metal of any design. You see, at one time a coin's grade was simply a case of determining its "condition of preservation since it left the dies." I'm not in the mood to write a lengthy post so I'll give you the principal reason a coin can be graded as many as 15 points apart an still be "correctly" (LOL) graded.
Problem is, the dealers became involved and wrote a grading guide. Today, factors such as strike, rarity, commercial value, toning, and luster to name the most important characteristics WHICH HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH A COIN'S CONDITION (WHEN STRUCK) OF PRESERVATION have clouded up the issue.
Yeah, I know, times have changed. One thing that has not is the skill, eyesight, knowledge, and experience of the grader but you covered that in your post.
@tradedollarnut said: If true, and it appears you have done some research, do you have an opinion as to why ANY member (NOT YOU BILL as I don't wish to offend you further) would do this? Is it a ego thing to indicate a member knows more about coins than the TPGS?
Said member would rather focus on the few exceptions than recognize the myriad of correct grades. And with each negative post, he throws our host under the bus at the same time. I have to wonder if his days here are numbered...
There is no definitive correct grade for a coin, only a host of subjective (albeit informed) opinions. I don't see how @BillJones posting coins like this for discussion is throwing anyone under the bus. You sure seem to be touchy about the subject, or delusional about the reality that grades on slabs (and shiny little green stickers) are just opinions -- nothing more!
Bill's clear agenda is to cherry pick coins that look like crap in images in order to make CAC (and by collateral damage, PCGS) look bad. He is great at pontificating off an image.
I'd be po'd too if I'd bought mostly price conscious ngc graded coins over my collecting career. Talk about a triple whammy...
@tradedollarnut said: If true, and it appears you have done some research, do you have an opinion as to why ANY member (NOT YOU BILL as I don't wish to offend you further) would do this? Is it a ego thing to indicate a member knows more about coins than the TPGS?
Said member would rather focus on the few exceptions than recognize the myriad of correct grades. And with each negative post, he throws our host under the bus at the same time. I have to wonder if his days here are numbered...
There is no definitive correct grade for a coin, only a host of subjective (albeit informed) opinions. I don't see how @BillJones posting coins like this for discussion is throwing anyone under the bus. You sure seem to be touchy about the subject, or delusional about the reality that grades on slabs (and shiny little green stickers) are just opinions -- nothing more!
Bill's clear agenda is to cherry pick coins that look like crap in images in order to make CAC (and by collateral damage, PCGS) look bad. He is great at pontificating off an image.
I'd be po'd too if I'd bought mostly price conscious ngc graded coins over my collecting career. Talk about a triple whammy...
Well, you'd certainly know about pontificating.
Of course you have a huge financial vested interest in holding up the PCGS and CAC "brands" as high as possible...so, your agenda seems to be pretty clear also.
-Brandon -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins] -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
@FallGuy said: "Oh, I wouldn't say you were pontificating. I think "pedantic" is the word that comes to mind when reading many of your posts... "
THANK YOU, I try to cover all bases so my opinion is very clear. I've been told many times to "Keep it simple, stupid!" I try, but it is often "simple" yet rambling.
My goal is make people aware that they have really look at what they are buying, and think for themselves. You can't just look at a label and a sticker and think that you are set. CAC approval has pulled "the dreck factor" way down, but it has not eliminated it.
As for TDN, he has a vested financial interest in CAC. He deals only in high end CAC material, but he feels duty bound to defend every CAC product, low end and high end. He should be talking to the CAC management about how they need to tighten and maintain their grading standards at all levels. He should not be attacking those who are pointing out CAC errors. CAC was formed to fix wavering grading standards. If CAC's standards fall, the brand name will not remain viable. I am not the only collector who has noted these problems.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
I agree with the ANACS details, that's what I would have graded it as I stated above, but surprised that they added cleaned. I would have thought scratched or damaged. Do the TPG overlook scratches if they are "old" or are they not post mint scratches?
it's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide
I have a suggestion that will eliminate virtually all questions of motives. In my experience, I learn best with the best examples for the grade. Good info in, good imprints in my head. Therefore, I'll suggest that all you educationally minded posters with the most experience post WHAT YOU BELIEVE to be correctly graded coins ONLY in the GTG treads. OTHERWISE, post a slab that you don't agree with right at the beginning. NO cheesy games. Post the slab, and tell what you disagree with. Then "your students" here can chime in as we learn.
Sorry, but I like what Bill Jones is doing and his method is fine. From a financial stand point, why would he have a personal motive to talk the market down? IMHO he is educating us (or me, at least) and causing us to ask the right questions, or better questions.
Actually, reading the posts (and IF ,as has been written, most of his examples are what he considers over graded slabs) it seems there may be a personal dislike for certain members, TPGS's, or CAC. Only two others beside me know for sure.
My suggestion, which is address to everyone, still stands
Wrong again, Bill. I have no financial interest in CAC. I also know that there are distinct differences in quality in coins that CAC has stickered. And it's good for my company that there are - otherwise what service would laura provide in screening coins for collectors?
What you are doing is wrong - you can justify it any way that you like but it's still wrong. You have a vendetta against CAC and JA, pure and simple. You are annoyed that the market demands CAC when it's time for you to sell and so you are knocking CAC. These are words straight from your posts in the past.
@BillDugan1959 said:
Sorry, but I like what Bill Jones is doing and his method is fine. From a financial stand point, why would he have a personal motive to talk the market down? IMHO he is educating us (or me, at least) and causing us to ask the right questions, or better questions.
How can he educating you when he is choosing horrible auction images that intentionally emphasize negative details in the coins and then bashing Pcgs and CAC off those images? It's the blind leading the blind right off the cliff. It is not possible to assess the nuances of A, B and C coins for the grade off an image - it's not even possible to consistently assess the numerical grade. Any 'educational' value to his malice filled posts is accidental at best.
@BillDugan1959 said:
He posts a trap coin and shows how it is market acceptable nowadays. That's pretty educational.
There's nothing to indicate that's a trap coin! What exactly are you expecting for an AU50? Have you viewed thousands of AU seated dollars?
There are thousands of coins that were once body bagged residing in straight graded holders - and I'm certain a percentage of them have CAC stickers. Without a personal in hand inspection, the professional graders at Pcgs and cac way overrule any Monday morning quarterbacking by Mr Bill off an image.
@tradedollarnut said: "How can he educating you when he is choosing horrible auction images that intentionally emphasize negative details in the coins and then bashing Pcgs and CAC off those images? It's the blind leading the blind right off the cliff. It is not possible to assess the nuances of A, B and C coins for the grade off an image - it's not even possible to consistently assess the numerical grade. Any 'educational' value to his malice filled posts is accidental at best."
I disagree. Many of us cannot take grading seminars or get to coin shows where we examine slabs in hand. All that many of us have are the images on our computers backed up with comments from the "Big Guys." I'll be the first to say I use the PCGS Grading images every day. I also recommend the PCGS site that lets you blow up highly detailed images of specific date and mint coins of all types! Heritage Auction images are excellent too. While photos are not the best way to view a coin (I prefer a 7X stereo microscope with an actual coin) I've learned so much from images on this site and the many comments of knowledgeable dealers/collectors posting here.
As for Mr. Bill, he seems very informed. That's why I suggested he change his MO.
Unnatural scratches on obverse, and all in the focal spots where an informed collector looks first. The reverse is far far nicer than the obverse. You could see that within 20 seconds of looking at the first image. I didn't questions the originality of the surfaces, but ... The only question was what the photo of the entire slab was going to look like. IMHO, Bill Jones is doing us all a good service.
The only way to determine for sure that this dollar is a trap for the buyer is that you see how severe the cleaning was in hand. HST, when additional evidence is presented, such as an AU details grade by ANACS in the previous holder, then one clearly does not need a live inspection to know to stay away from this as Bill notes the evidence available in the images which is consistent with the ANACS grade.
I appreciate it that someone here is willing to provide examples like this, it is very educational and tells us even with CAC you have to stay on your feet and not blindly buy buy buy. I have had a few CAC coins I bought online without seeing in hand that now I recognize as harshly cleaned for my particular interests, and are gone from my collection for a loss (others appeared to agree when seen in hand). They are exceptions, but CAC is not always going to have the same tastes I do. So this is a good lesson and thanks Bill for showing it.
Does anyone know "who" submitted the coin to PCGS to receive a straight grade? Highly doubtful that it went to our host in the ANACS details slab. I still find it hard to believe that anonymity is present with grading services. Regular Joe collector submits a coin and it receives a "details" whether it is Questionable Color, cleaned, etc... Regular Joe sells coin at a reduced rate and Super Dealer submits coin and receives a straight grade.
oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_aka...Dr. Defecto - Curator of RMO's
@oih82w8 said:
Does anyone know "who" submitted the coin to PCGS to receive a straight grade? Highly doubtful that it went to our host in the ANACS details slab. I still find it hard to believe that anonymity is present with grading services. Regular Joe collector submits a coin and it receives a "details" whether it is Questionable Color, cleaned, etc... Regular Joe sells coin at a reduced rate and Super Dealer submits coin and receives a straight grade.
Obviously, we do not know if PCGS does provide anonymity. What I will say is that it would be incredibly poor business practice/judgment on PCGS's part to risk its reputation in order to provide a financial boon to a select circle of 'Super Dealers'. Businesses do make poor decisions from time to time - we read about them in the news. However, I'm thinking (and trusting) that PCGS values its reputation and would not exert favoritism to certain customers and risk destroying their reputation.
@oih82w8 said:
Does anyone know "who" submitted the coin to PCGS to receive a straight grade? Highly doubtful that it went to our host in the ANACS details slab. I still find it hard to believe that anonymity is present with grading services. Regular Joe collector submits a coin and it receives a "details" whether it is Questionable Color, cleaned, etc... Regular Joe sells coin at a reduced rate and Super Dealer submits coin and receives a straight grade.
Obviously, we do not know if PCGS does provide anonymity. What I will say is that it would be incredibly poor business practice/judgment on PCGS's part to risk its reputation in order to provide a financial boon to a select circle of 'Super Dealers'. Businesses do make poor decisions from time to time - we read about them in the news. However, I'm thinking (and trusting) that PCGS values its reputation and would not exert favoritism to certain customers and risk destroying their reputation.
I would like to think so as well...just not sure.
oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_aka...Dr. Defecto - Curator of RMO's
@spacehayduke said:
The only way to determine for sure that this dollar is a trap for the buyer is that you see how severe the cleaning was in hand. HST, when additional evidence is presented, such as an AU details grade by ANACS in the previous holder, then one clearly does not need a live inspection to know to stay away from this as Bill notes the evidence available in the images which is consistent with the ANACS grade.
I appreciate it that someone here is willing to provide examples like this, it is very educational and tells us even with CAC you have to stay on your feet and not blindly buy buy buy. I have had a few CAC coins I bought online without seeing in hand that now I recognize as harshly cleaned for my particular interests, and are gone from my collection for a loss (others appeared to agree when seen in hand). They are exceptions, but CAC is not always going to have the same tastes I do. So this is a good lesson and thanks Bill for showing it.
Best, SH
"Spacey" makes some valid points! What we are discussing on this coin is a matter of degree. Mr. Bill and many members along with a second tier TPGS, known for being conservative (which I like), has determined that this coin was not "market acceptable due to cleaning. The folks at one of the top TPGS, along with those at CAC determined that the coin did not deserve to be "detailed."
One thing I've learned over the years is most of the hairline scratches on we find on circulated coins do not come from cleaning. Perhaps the folks at PCGS and CAC feel the same. In the end, it is a personal thing. Buy the coin, not the label.
I think the coin is probably an AU58, but with the borderline damage they knocked it down to an AU50. That's better than a Genuine w/AU details. I'm afraid the "Liberty" looking like that would be a deal killer for me.
"Ain't None of Them play like him (Bix Beiderbecke) Yet." Louis Armstrong
Comments
In my post I said our host would probably give it "details".
I might be wrong in the opinion of PCGS... but I'm disappointed in the grading on this one.
In this case I still believe I'm right.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
We’ve had a lot of grading questions and discussions on the boards today. (The wheel spins round and round!)
But it occurred to me that as a collector, we really have two different tasks. They can be closely related....but they really are quite different:
Step 1) Grade the coin.
Step 2) Decide if you want to OWN the coin.
I think that, in some ways, decision #2 has become the more important one. In practice, the grading services have taken over the grading question, like it or not. And coins tend to sell at their assigned grades, even when we don’t agree with those grades. (Just try to buy a TPG MS-64 for the MS-63 money you graded it at. It usually doesn’t work).
So, in the case of this coin, my contention is:
Step 1) Sure, AU-50 might be an acceptable grade. Someone will eventually buy it.
Step 2) If I were looking for a coin in this grade, and of this date or type.....I'd pass on this one. Without actually LOOKING for a coin of this date, I'm guessing better, more pleasing, less questionable examples exist. PASS....Walk to next table.
That shows if you take a technical coin down enough maybe cac will like it. On some coins that does not help, what would you rather have an AU 58 HR Saint cac or an MS62 without with the numbers game that drives all the bottom line buyers?
@logger7 said: "That shows if you take a technical coin down enough maybe cac will like it. On some coins that does not help, what would you rather have an AU 58 HR Saint cac or an MS62 without with the numbers game that drives all the bottom line buyers?"
Unfair question I think. I don't know the value of the two coins but it seems the one in the 62 slab would be worth more money so I'll take that one. Did I make the right choice?
The coin has BIG TIME rub (flat gray areas on high points - especially right leg and knee) and not that much luster remaining in the fields. That's a 45-55 type of coin. No way a 58 or higher. AU50 seems like a fair net grade. In the old days, I think this coin would have body bagged.
My first thought on seeing the op was "AU details."
So a light cleaning that is hardly noticeable gets bagged and this thing that looks like the cat played with it gets graded and a bean. Well we're all human..... I guess...
Oh my. ANACS rocks the house! I think the the cat cleaned it too!
ANACS got it right.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Seems to me the pieces mentioned or shown here are scarce to rare, and that may be why they are getting some form(s) of special consideration from the TPGs. Shouldn't be that way, but...
Yes, the rumor made the rounds that ANACS had given this coin a net grade for cleaning in the past.
I bet CAC would buy the coin and remove the sticker if given the opportunity.
@billjones: What point are you trying to make a point about CAC with this coin? I agree this coin has issues and is not consistent with the quality that I would expect from the CAC brand.
Latin American Collection
Got here too late... would have said 45.... surprised it got 50. Cheers, RickO
I would not buy that coin.
I agree with the ANACS grade.
If true, and it appears you have done some research, do you have an opinion as to why ANY member (NOT YOU BILL as I don't wish to offend you further) would do this? Is it a ego thing to indicate a member knows more about coins than the TPGS?
Said member would rather focus on the few exceptions than recognize the myriad of correct grades. And with each negative post, he throws our host under the bus at the same time. I have to wonder if his days here are numbered...
I graded that seated lib as XF. Surprised it made AU with that luster.
Free Trial
There is no definitive correct grade for a coin, only a host of subjective (albeit informed) opinions. I don't see how @BillJones posting coins like this for discussion is throwing anyone under the bus. You sure seem to be touchy about the subject, or delusional about the reality that grades on slabs (and shiny little green stickers) are just opinions -- nothing more!
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
So much for CAC....
@brg5658 said: "There is no definitive correct grade for a coin, only a host of subjective (albeit informed) opinions."
I pulled back my initial "disagree" to your comment above. Actually, there is a correct grade for any round piece of metal of any design. You see, at one time a coin's grade was simply a case of determining its "condition of preservation since it left the dies." I'm not in the mood to write a lengthy post so I'll give you the principal reason a coin can be graded as many as 15 points apart an still be "correctly" (LOL) graded.
Problem is, the dealers became involved and wrote a grading guide. Today, factors such as strike, rarity, commercial value, toning, and luster to name the most important characteristics WHICH HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH A COIN'S CONDITION (WHEN STRUCK) OF PRESERVATION have clouded up the issue.
Yeah, I know, times have changed. One thing that has not is the skill, eyesight, knowledge, and experience of the grader but you covered that in your post.
Bill's clear agenda is to cherry pick coins that look like crap in images in order to make CAC (and by collateral damage, PCGS) look bad. He is great at pontificating off an image.
I'd be po'd too if I'd bought mostly price conscious ngc graded coins over my collecting career. Talk about a triple whammy...
Well, you'd certainly know about pontificating.
Of course you have a huge financial vested interest in holding up the PCGS and CAC "brands" as high as possible...so, your agenda seems to be pretty clear also.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
I do? Shrug
@brg5658 said: "Well, you'd certainly know about pontificating."
Hey, what about me and my comments on the soapbox! I don't have any connection to PCGS or CAC.
Oh, I wouldn't say you were pontificating. I think "pedantic" is the word that comes to mind when reading many of your posts...
High end 50? I've owned an XF45 that was a little worse and an AU53 that was a little better ... so AU50 is my guess.
@FallGuy said: "Oh, I wouldn't say you were pontificating. I think "pedantic" is the word that comes to mind when reading many of your posts...
"
THANK YOU, I try to cover all bases so my opinion is very clear. I've been told many times to "Keep it simple, stupid!" I try, but it is often "simple" yet rambling.
My goal is make people aware that they have really look at what they are buying, and think for themselves. You can't just look at a label and a sticker and think that you are set. CAC approval has pulled "the dreck factor" way down, but it has not eliminated it.
As for TDN, he has a vested financial interest in CAC. He deals only in high end CAC material, but he feels duty bound to defend every CAC product, low end and high end. He should be talking to the CAC management about how they need to tighten and maintain their grading standards at all levels. He should not be attacking those who are pointing out CAC errors. CAC was formed to fix wavering grading standards. If CAC's standards fall, the brand name will not remain viable. I am not the only collector who has noted these problems.
I agree with the ANACS details, that's what I would have graded it as I stated above, but surprised that they added cleaned. I would have thought scratched or damaged. Do the TPG overlook scratches if they are "old" or are they not post mint scratches?
it's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide
I was thinking AU53 although I didn't like the scratches in the right obverse field.
Good thread.
I have a suggestion that will eliminate virtually all questions of motives. In my experience, I learn best with the best examples for the grade. Good info in, good imprints in my head. Therefore, I'll suggest that all you educationally minded posters with the most experience post WHAT YOU BELIEVE to be correctly graded coins ONLY in the GTG treads. OTHERWISE, post a slab that you don't agree with right at the beginning. NO cheesy games. Post the slab, and tell what you disagree with. Then "your students" here can chime in as we learn.
Sorry, but I like what Bill Jones is doing and his method is fine. From a financial stand point, why would he have a personal motive to talk the market down? IMHO he is educating us (or me, at least) and causing us to ask the right questions, or better questions.
Actually, reading the posts (and IF ,as has been written, most of his examples are what he considers over graded slabs) it seems there may be a personal dislike for certain members, TPGS's, or CAC. Only two others beside me know for sure.
My suggestion, which is address to everyone, still stands
Wrong again, Bill. I have no financial interest in CAC. I also know that there are distinct differences in quality in coins that CAC has stickered. And it's good for my company that there are - otherwise what service would laura provide in screening coins for collectors?
What you are doing is wrong - you can justify it any way that you like but it's still wrong. You have a vendetta against CAC and JA, pure and simple. You are annoyed that the market demands CAC when it's time for you to sell and so you are knocking CAC. These are words straight from your posts in the past.
How can he educating you when he is choosing horrible auction images that intentionally emphasize negative details in the coins and then bashing Pcgs and CAC off those images? It's the blind leading the blind right off the cliff. It is not possible to assess the nuances of A, B and C coins for the grade off an image - it's not even possible to consistently assess the numerical grade. Any 'educational' value to his malice filled posts is accidental at best.
He posts a trap coin and shows how it is market acceptable nowadays. That's pretty educational.
There's nothing to indicate that's a trap coin! What exactly are you expecting for an AU50? Have you viewed thousands of AU seated dollars?
There are thousands of coins that were once body bagged residing in straight graded holders - and I'm certain a percentage of them have CAC stickers. Without a personal in hand inspection, the professional graders at Pcgs and cac way overrule any Monday morning quarterbacking by Mr Bill off an image.
@tradedollarnut said: "How can he educating you when he is choosing horrible auction images that intentionally emphasize negative details in the coins and then bashing Pcgs and CAC off those images? It's the blind leading the blind right off the cliff. It is not possible to assess the nuances of A, B and C coins for the grade off an image - it's not even possible to consistently assess the numerical grade. Any 'educational' value to his malice filled posts is accidental at best."
I disagree. Many of us cannot take grading seminars or get to coin shows where we examine slabs in hand. All that many of us have are the images on our computers backed up with comments from the "Big Guys." I'll be the first to say I use the PCGS Grading images every day. I also recommend the PCGS site that lets you blow up highly detailed images of specific date and mint coins of all types! Heritage Auction images are excellent too. While photos are not the best way to view a coin (I prefer a 7X stereo microscope with an actual coin) I've learned so much from images on this site and the many comments of knowledgeable dealers/collectors posting here.
As for Mr. Bill, he seems very informed. That's why I suggested he change his MO.
Unnatural scratches on obverse, and all in the focal spots where an informed collector looks first. The reverse is far far nicer than the obverse. You could see that within 20 seconds of looking at the first image. I didn't questions the originality of the surfaces, but ... The only question was what the photo of the entire slab was going to look like. IMHO, Bill Jones is doing us all a good service.
I would have guessed au details, net xf. Straight 50 with a bean is hard to understand based on the images.
The only way to determine for sure that this dollar is a trap for the buyer is that you see how severe the cleaning was in hand. HST, when additional evidence is presented, such as an AU details grade by ANACS in the previous holder, then one clearly does not need a live inspection to know to stay away from this as Bill notes the evidence available in the images which is consistent with the ANACS grade.
I appreciate it that someone here is willing to provide examples like this, it is very educational and tells us even with CAC you have to stay on your feet and not blindly buy buy buy. I have had a few CAC coins I bought online without seeing in hand that now I recognize as harshly cleaned for my particular interests, and are gone from my collection for a loss (others appeared to agree when seen in hand). They are exceptions, but CAC is not always going to have the same tastes I do. So this is a good lesson and thanks Bill for showing it.
Best, SH
Does anyone know "who" submitted the coin to PCGS to receive a straight grade? Highly doubtful that it went to our host in the ANACS details slab. I still find it hard to believe that anonymity is present with grading services. Regular Joe collector submits a coin and it receives a "details" whether it is Questionable Color, cleaned, etc... Regular Joe sells coin at a reduced rate and Super Dealer submits coin and receives a straight grade.
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore, Nickpatton, Namvet69,...
Obviously, we do not know if PCGS does provide anonymity. What I will say is that it would be incredibly poor business practice/judgment on PCGS's part to risk its reputation in order to provide a financial boon to a select circle of 'Super Dealers'. Businesses do make poor decisions from time to time - we read about them in the news. However, I'm thinking (and trusting) that PCGS values its reputation and would not exert favoritism to certain customers and risk destroying their reputation.
I would like to think so as well...just not sure.
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore, Nickpatton, Namvet69,...
"Spacey" makes some valid points! What we are discussing on this coin is a matter of degree. Mr. Bill and many members along with a second tier TPGS, known for being conservative (which I like), has determined that this coin was not "market acceptable due to cleaning. The folks at one of the top TPGS, along with those at CAC determined that the coin did not deserve to be "detailed."
One thing I've learned over the years is most of the hairline scratches on we find on circulated coins do not come from cleaning. Perhaps the folks at PCGS and CAC feel the same. In the end, it is a personal thing. Buy the coin, not the label.
I think the coin is probably an AU58, but with the borderline damage they knocked it down to an AU50. That's better than a Genuine w/AU details. I'm afraid the "Liberty" looking like that would be a deal killer for me.
Louis Armstrong