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How do you neutralize MS70?
stealer
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What is your personal method? I have heard warm water and warm water + baking soda, also a case for acetone then warm water, although that doesn't work for copper.
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stealer
Posts: 3,968 ✭✭✭✭
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I use EZest and do the following: remove the coin from the 50/50 diluted dip with tongs and rinse under running water. Then I shake it around in distilled water in a large cup (I use those red plastic beer cups) for ten seconds or so and then rinse with acetone and let air dry. This has worked well on modern proof coins that have developed hazing.
bob:)
MS70 should be neutralized by an acetone bath. That stuff is slimy. Acetone is the only cure I have found.
One member posted: "I use EZest and do the following: remove the coin from the 50/50 diluted dip with tongs and rinse under running water. Then I shake it around in distilled water in a large cup (I use those red plastic beer cups) for ten seconds or so and then rinse with acetone and let air dry. This has worked well on modern proof coins that have developed hazing."
The OP wants to know about MS-70. However, since you posted this, I'll disagree.
Dip is acidic. If you try to neutralize it with water and then acetone, it should develop brown dip stains in the future. If your coins have not, you are a very, very lucky dealer OR you sold them and they turned brown in someone's collection. LOL.
A Baking soda rinse to neutralize the acid, then distilled or ionic water, then acetone works much better.
As for MS-70, a very hot soapy water rinse, then distilled water, then acetone. These are the steps I learned in a conservation setting. Those folks used ultrasonic cleaners, filtered compressed air, and ionic water.
It was quite impressive. More so than the hotel bathroom at a coin show procedure above.
I haven't had any problems rinsing with warm water followed by distilled and pat-dry with a microfiber cloth. MS70 feels "slimy" because it is very basic and is reacting to the oils in your skin, be careful to minimize contact with your fingers. When you rinse a coin and it feels slippery still, it's because the ms70 is still on you, not necessarily the coin.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_hydroxide
https://www.quora.com/Why-do-bases-feel-slippery
Collector, occasional seller
Well damn. I've been grabbing the coins with my hands, and at one point was submerging my fingers into a diluted MS70 solution for some time. My skin did feel funny afterwards, but the feeling went away after half an hour or so. I'll keep that in mind for the future...
We use a lot of caustic at work. For small exposures we use alcohol to get it off and neutralized and follow with water.
PS be mindful of ignition sources if using alcohol.
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"How do you neutralize MS70?"
Seems a bit drastic. CU Forum member MS70 is quite innocuous, and generally harmless, so I see no need to 'neutralize' him
.
"How do you neutralize MS70?"
Take a hammer to the coin. Instant non-MS70. (It was the first thing that came to mind at 3:30am...
)
Best way to neutralize MS70 is to never use it in the first place.
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My first question would be -'Why do you want to neutralize MS70?'.....The reason would be important to the recommended method... Cheers, RickO
If exposed to caustic [NaOH, KOH, etc.} it always felt slimy and water wasn't very effective at washing it off. A bit of dilute sulfuric did the trick and is essentially harmless with short term exposure.
If ms70 is slimy [indicating it's basic] I'd wash with water, a bit of vinegar, then some distilled water followed by a final rinse with isopropyl "rubbing" alcohol either 70% [blue label bottle] or 90% [red label bottle] doesn't really matter. Lean the coin against something and let it air dry.
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@spacehayduke said: "Best way to neutralize MS70 is to never use it in the first place."
LOL, you are surly making a joke. If not, you may wish to educate yourself. I'll venture to say that MS-70 is the second most used product (after dip and excluding water) by professionals who clean coins! Er, conserve them.
As usual insider2 you make assumptions of people without knowing anything about them nor their expertise and as if you are the sole arbiter of knowledge on these boards. MS70 in no way helps a coin in a positive way - at least one with any type of value, it leaves a greasy sheen and strips off original patina, giving an obviously doctored look - no matter what one uses for 'neutralization'. How do I know that? Well golly gosh, I have a bottle and have experimented, I went out and found out what it is - pH 13, detergent with hydroxide compounds.
This is not conservation, it is cleaning in a detrimental way and while there are many coins with the MS70 look in slabs - I would run from them as fast as Bolt does the 100m. Using it is a guaranteed way to decrease the value of a coin. But silly me, I prefer my coins to be as original as possible.... Yikes
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LOL. Yikes, if you only knew...
@spacehayduke You must be a highly regarded professional chemist. Unfortunately, "I HAVE A BOTTLE AND EXPERIMENTED" is all the proof I needed to read concerning your training, expertise, and knowledge. You deserve a big fat "Disagree." Hopefully, somewhere in time you'll get a chance to learn something about CONSERVATION.
NOTE: MS-70 is a "miracle product" used by professionals who clean coins!
PS If you don't know what you are doing, don't touch them!
PPS I wonder if the PCGS sniffer can detect a coin that is properly conserved using MS-70?
It is funny you say this because Al is a chemist.
I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but I was asking because I had used it on a proof Indian head cent that was completely crusted over with gunk and ugly environmental stuff. I paid $60 for it and figured I would try playing with MS70 on it, and as a result, I was able to recover a pretty gem proof.
Also @Insider2 is correct in stating that it is a very commonly used product in the industry for conservation.
I thought so. Thankfully I'm not a chemist and my ignorance is bliss. It also keeps me in beer and wine money.
NOTE: I'm not trying to pick a fight here either. We all have opinions and NUMISMATIC EDUCATION is the goal. Where would we all be without chemists and chemistry!
Now dip your fingers into some acetone
I used full strength MS70 on this coin, PCGS secure so it went through the sniffer. It also still looks completely original and it is because all the MS70 did was remove any surface contaminates.
Make sure you have a hangnail first though
Collector, occasional seller
Very nice coin. Note to all the "ex-pert" chemists that if used properly, MS-70 will generally only lighten the toning. In many cases, any toning that comes completely off with either of these chemicals may not be natural.
My old bottle of MS70 states - "Contains no acid"
I don't have any litmus paper to check acid or base, but I suspect the slippery quality of the solution is from both the basic ingredients and also the wetters typically employed.
I've generally used baking soda to neutralize any dip residue. But only after rinsing under warm running water for a long time. The goal is to get the dip off so rinsing well and neutralizing is important.
To finish it off after the baking soda, I rinse in distilled water, then an acetone dip because it evaporates quickly.
So the process is dip, rinse in running water, dip in baking soda solution, rinse in running water, dip in acetone.
Have a ton of dipped coins using this method from over a decade ago - no problems at all.
BTW I am also a chemist and chemical engineer. And fellow "Badger" along with Al.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
MS70 removes organic compounds, nothing else; so if you have an ugly coin after applying MS70, it was an ugly coin to start with. OR if you use it on circulated coins it will not produce desirable results.
your mileage may vary with copper coins.
I enjoy the information both of you "Badgers" supply here (even if you cannot tell from my "snarky" posts).
Unfortunately and as usual, the OP asked about one thing (MS-70) and we started to post/answer about another - acidic coin dips.
It can be confusing.
As you posted, MS-70 is not an acid. Formerly, I had a binder with data sheets (M (manufactures ?) D (data ?)somethings...I cannot even remember what they are called anymore! One of these should be on line for MS-70. Anyway, I always thought of MS-70 as a strong soap-like cleaner. No need to neutralize MS-70 with baking soda as I think you have brought "coin dip" into the thread again. BTY, It must have a basic PH (the limit of my chemical jargon...LOL) as it fizzes with dip. Anyway, your method to "fix" coin dip works for me.
Has anyone ever used ms-70 on a toned coin? If so what happened?
MSDS, Material safety data sheet.
And I was just reading the bottle, and it says to "gently massage your coin with a q-tip" Is that how your guys use it? I have yet to try it myself, but just bought and old Lincoln album full of semi-gunky cents so I may give it a whirl.
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@crazyhounddog asked: "Has anyone ever used ms-70 on a toned coin? If so what happened?'
This should generate many replies, who hasn't?
Natural toning is virtually not affected although it may lighten just a little. If the color is due to contamination it may come off completely. I've even used it on rainbow Morgan's in a selective way. Attack the black and leave the rainbow. Often a little haze on a coin is
When you use any chemical on a coin it is best not to rub the coin. With experience this statement becomes a "Do as I say, not as I do" sort of thing.
Practice on junk.
Best bet would be to get some unc '64 Kennedy halves and get a feel for it on them. They are cheap and easy to find with toning too.
@BruceS I'd be cautious on copper because MS70 can "turn" them blue. I pretty much only use MS70 on silver so I can't say any more than that.
Collector, occasional seller
MS70 is a base. I would be careful with baking soda. I have seen this tried on a few circulated coins that look cleaned afterwards when copious amounts of baking soda are used.
Agreed, No need to go crazy with the baking soda as we are only trying to neutralize a thin surface layer.
Interesting results on circulated coins - I never tried that.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
Yep, I found that out the hard way (re baking soda), turned a dark circulated proof into a shiny circulated proof, although gradable
Thanks for all the responses!
Has anyone ever used ms-70 on a toned coin? If so what happened?> @Insider2 said:
Thank you for your response. I have some buffalo nickels in a coin album with attractive toning but some are a bit dirty. Just wondering if anyone has had any experience with using it on toned nickel and if so what happened? Nickels are a 75% copper alloy. Just wondering if using MS-70 on them they turn blue like the Lincoln cents do.
Thanks again
Baking soda is abrasive. Ya better watch it as you will get hairlines would be my guess.
@crazyhounddog said: "Thank you for your response. I have some buffalo nickels in a coin album with attractive toning but some are a bit dirty. Just wondering if anyone has had any experience with using it on toned nickel and if so what happened? Nickels are a 75% copper alloy. Just wondering if using MS-70 on them they turn blue like the Lincoln cents do."
I would be lying if I said baking soda was NEVER used by professional conservators on coins. Unfortunately, most others who clean coins scratch them all up with soda.
It would be unprofessional for me to comment on the coins without a photo. Other than that, MS-70 can be used on nickels. I'll suggest you try Coin Care first and remove it with acetone.
Baking soda is a very useful tool in conservation. You use it to neutralize. It's not something you rub your coin with.
You put the lime in the coconut....
So MS70 is basically a detergent, which removes organic matter, grease, etc. Acetone also removes organics and other than the fumes and fire risk I find it very simple to use. Why would anyone prefer MS70 over acetone?
My God - so MUCH misinformation in one thread
@georgiacop50 said: "My God - so MUCH misinformation in one thread."
I agree 100% with this poster and I'll start with HIS MISINFORMED OPINION. Hopefully, this knowledgeable "ex-pert," long-time, coin conservation specialist (Probably also a chemist...lol) will take the time to DO THE RIGHT THING and educate all of us RATHER THAN make a pot-shot, fly-by attack.
So, I've started. Your post is misinformed and that is not an idle opinion. Please quote the other misstatements that HAVE NOT BEEN REFUTED already in the posts above. Thanks, as I (and possibly others) wish to learn something from you.
@kaz said: "So MS70 is basically a detergent, which removes organic matter, grease, etc. Acetone also removes organics and other than the fumes and fire risk I find it very simple to use. Why would anyone prefer MS70 over acetone?"
As I wrote somewhere, I'm not a chemist. I don't know how things work. Up until I saw MS-70 used on coins 18 years ago, I never heard of the stuff and like you, only used acetone. Now that I have become a more educated professional numismatist with lots of experience with the product, I can post here with 100% accuracy that MS-70 will remove some substances from the surface of coins that are not affected by acetone. Additionally, it works much faster than acetone for many uses that are suitable for acetone treatment. Ask a chemist to explain it - I cannot.
Finally, pretend you work at one of the conservation labs at NCS, ICG, or PCGS. You are given a hundred coins to conserve at 10 AM. The employee using MS-70 will be finished with the coins and on to another couple of orders before leaving the lab for lunch at 11:30. He has made the company a few hundred dollars this morning already. The fellow using the acetone will be halfway through. He will be under so much pressure that he skips lunch for two reasons, he needs to finish the job and the back side of his pants are brown and smelly!
Does anyone have a MSDS for MS70?
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Kas is correct: "MS70 is basically a detergent, which removes organic matter, grease, etc." MDS probably posted somewhere already on CU and certainly on the Internet.
Let me clarify my example using the "fantasy lab" above with an experiment anyone can do. Take a hazed-up Proof Ike dollar (NOT one with attractive haze...lol) and try to remove the haze w/acetone. When the acetone evaporates some will be gone, and what remains on the coin will be moved around in a different pattern. Do it again - same thing. OK, let's dump the coin in a bowl of acetone to soak. Same thing. Oh, and you'll need to keep using fresh acetone. Proof? Put a bright Proof into the bowl of used acetone and "bingo" - all hazed up!
here is a link to the msds: translinesupply.com/PDF/MDSSHEETS/MS707530.MSDS.pdf
MS70 contains some ethanol, potassium hydroxide (strong alkali), and sodium gluconate ( a surfactant). (I posted elsewhere in a thread about removing pvc, that I used a mixture of KOH and DMSO(industrial solvent) to rapidly remove pvc and haze from a large white metal token). In any case, wearing gloves, eye protection and thoroughly rinsing off residue would be wise with products like these. Getting a strong alkali in your eyes is very bad!
...and it sure smooths out the fingers...LOL. Perhaps it would make a nice facial mask (away from the eyes).
So, how does one neutralize MS70? (honest question)
It actually contains 2-butoxyethanol aka "butyl" cellosolve instead of ethanol. Otherwise it appears to be an alkaline/basic soap solution as described. Not sure it makes sense that this would be the "dip residue" often seen as peripheral brown/rust-looking coloration on Morgans which were improperly rinsed. I believe that to be due to EZest which contains sulfuric acid among other things. IMO, the best way to neutralize MS70 would, be vinegar or a bit of citric acid if you have it. Citric acid is readily available on eBay.
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@stealer
@BackroadJunkie said: "Take a hammer to the coin. Instant non-MS70. (It was the first thing that came to mind at 3:30am...
"
This MIGHT work, I never tried it.
This DOES work: Used many, many times by me and others who know more than I ever will!:
A very hot soapy water rinse, then distilled water, (then acetone if you wish). When the MS-70, soapy distilled water, and distilled water are hot, they clean better and evaporate faster. Air dry or air dry and acetone at the end. Nickel coins should always have an acetone bath at the end. It keeps them from turning color longer.
I am not trying to pick a fight either, I am simply stating that my view on MS70 is that it is doctoring to use it. I would be curious to see if any professional coin conservation company would state that they use it - I have had a number of silver and copper coins conserved by NCS that had grime, etc. on them. None of them have ever came back with the greasy sheen of MS70. I would be surprised to find out that they use it. Other than NCS, the most established company in the industry for conservation, is there anyone else who would state that they use it in established conservation practices that is accepted by grading companies? Again, just wondering because my view is this stuff does not conserve coins but doctors them.
There is also the issue of blue copper, some suggest that this is an MS70 reaction, although I don't buy it based on what it is and what it really does, nevertheless, while market acceptable, some would say it is doctoring if indeed some blue copper is that way because of MS70......
Best, SH
Edited to add - if cleaning is what one wants to do to get ride of grime, like others have said, acetone does the job. It does not remove patina like MS70 does or leave any kind of greasy look to the conserved coin............
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I do believe MS-70 is concentrated lye or caustic soda.
@stealer if you go back to the original answer from what I get after all the " non experts rants" if I was you, and at the point determined to using MS70, I would use distilled water, then acetone, per @insider2 original instructions. They seem the least complicated and the safest.
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