"I am not trying to pick a fight either, I am simply stating that my view on MS70 is that it is doctoring to use it."
Well said. Believe what you wish as long as you understand that your belief and mine are different and no one gives a rat's whisker about either opinion. Especially anyone who cleans coins professionally and gets paid to do it.
"I would be curious to see if any professional coin conservation company would state that they use it - I have had a number of silver and copper coins conserved by NCS that had grime, etc. on them."
Obviously, you are making a joke. IMHO, there are already too many "proprietary secrets" expressed in this thread and on Internet forums to help "ham-fisted-ignorant-idiots" destroy perfectly good coins!
"None of them have ever came back with the greasy sheen of MS"
I should think that if any conservation specialist, coin doctor, or conservation service even used MS-70 on a coin, they would know how to remove the greasy traces it leaves. Agree?
"I would be surprised to find out that they use it."
I should like to know also. Just think how disappointed a collector would be if they did use it on any coins and the collector found out that in your words "THE COIN WAS DOCTORED."
"Other than NCS, the most established company in the industry for conservation, is there anyone else who would state that they use it in established conservation practices that is accepted by grading companies? Again, just wondering because my view is this stuff does not conserve coins but doctors them."
Perhaps you are not thinking this out. All I will say is we will both probably be long gone before any lab writes how/what they do to conserve our coins. It's bad for business. Enjoy the results (if they are to your liking) when you receive the coins back. Unfortunately, I have lately read of some bad results but I have not seen the proof.
One solution to your question that I can share with you is this: If you inquire about attending one of the classes taught by ANA's instructor Brian Silliman who formerly worked at NCS, you could ask him in private.
"There is also the issue of blue copper, some suggest that this is an MS70 reaction, although I don't buy it based on what it is and what it really does, nevertheless, while market acceptable, some would say it is doctoring if indeed some blue copper is that way because of MS70...."
There is an entire thread on this subject on CU. I shall not open that can of worms here...LOL!
I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but I was asking because I had used it on a proof Indian head cent that was completely crusted over with gunk and ugly environmental stuff. I paid $60 for it and figured I would try playing with MS70 on it, and as a result, I was able to recover a pretty gem proof.
Also @Insider2 is correct in stating that it is a very commonly used product in the industry for conservation.
I am not trying to pick a fight either, I am simply stating that my view on MS70 is that it is doctoring to use it. I would be curious to see if any professional coin conservation company would state that they use it - I have had a number of silver and copper coins conserved by NCS that had grime, etc. on them. None of them have ever came back with the greasy sheen of MS70. I would be surprised to find out that they use it. Other than NCS, the most established company in the industry for conservation, is there anyone else who would state that they use it in established conservation practices that is accepted by grading companies? Again, just wondering because my view is this stuff does not conserve coins but doctors them.
There is also the issue of blue copper, some suggest that this is an MS70 reaction, although I don't buy it based on what it is and what it really does, nevertheless, while market acceptable, some would say it is doctoring if indeed some blue copper is that way because of MS70......
Best, SH
Edited to add - if cleaning is what one wants to do to get ride of grime, like others have said, acetone does the job. It does not remove patina like MS70 does or leave any kind of greasy look to the conserved coin............
I'm actually going to try MS70 on some copper lincolns tomorrow because it occurred to me that the blue on my proof IHC may have been induced by the chemical (I'm no chemist by trade, so I have no idea if or how copper reacts with it), and will post my results here for the world to see!
Maybe it's just my use of language, but "neutralize" seems inapplicable.
The chemical reactions from the various anhydrides are essentially instantaneous. Those surface molecules are now totally inert. Chemists, please correct if I'm misinformed.
From that point on, you're involved in the purely physical process of rinsing off crud, and nearly everything said here about rinses works.
That slimy feeling? Part of it is your skin melting.
Baking soda is a great neutralizer for acids.
It has both chemical and physical properties, so maybe the 40 years old VanAllen-Mallis advice on scrubbing with a slurry of it (physical) has obscured the effect of its chemical properties.
1) Coffee cup or anything 3+ inches deep.
2) Fill with water with a little room at the top.
3) Add 1/2 teaspoon of baking soda
4) Wait 30 seconds. At this point the baking soda has give you a -PH solution and the abrasive granules have sunk to the bottom
5) Immerse coin in the top inch of the water. You can take your time, some acids take longer to neutralize
6) rinse coin
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
@stealer said: "I'm actually going to try MS70 on some copper lincolns tomorrow because it occurred to me that the blue on my proof IHC may have been induced by the chemical (I'm no chemist by trade, so I have no idea if or how copper reacts with it), and will post my results here for the world to see!"
Blue is the new $$$ at this time. Don't play with the blue proof!
Anytime you wish to remove the blue iridescence from copper, all it takes is a little Coin Care or nose oil...Yikes!
And for those who can afford it, get an Ultrasonic, even the cheap ones for jewelry can get ALL your chemicals into the microscopic places they normally will not reach.
PS Baking soda, distilled water, and chemicals are cheap. Make sure you do not overuse them. Fresh is good!
@Insider2 said:
And for those who can afford it, get an Ultrasonic, even the cheap ones for jewelry can get ALL your chemicals into the microscopic places they normally will not reach.
PS Baking soda, distilled water, and chemicals are cheap. Make sure you do not overuse them. Fresh is good!
Better yet, just don't do anything to your coins except a possible acetone bath........
Here is my MS70 experience on a half cent that was wiped with terrible scratches across front and back that allowed it to be a sacrifical lamb. After the MS70 treatment, over time, the blue went away without any additional chemicals.
One solution to your question that I can share with you is this: If you inquire about attending one of the classes taught by ANA's instructor Brian Silliman who formerly worked at NCS, you could ask him in private.
Yup I did actually make this point tongue in cheek knowing NCS et al. would never reveal what they do. HST, what I meant by 'greasy sheen' is not by 'feel', but by 'look' even after whatever is done to remove the MS70 from the surface - it is what it does to the surfaces to result in that look. HST.2 I have talked to Brian on several occasions one on one in my days of experimentation. He used to come to shows where you could discuss things about 'conservation' with him. What I learned is that even privately he is very good at not discussing what NCS does, and I am sure he had to sign some legal document upon leaving that would keep those secrets today. HST.3, one wonders what a little alcohol (we are not talking industrial grade ethonal but some good old fashioned scotch) could do to loosen up his tongue...........
But the short answer is, I have never seen the MS70 look on an NCS conserved coin, does not mean they have never used it, but I suspect they would see similar results that others have found and remove it from the list of their safe conservation chemicals. It is pretty harsh stuff as others have noted in this thread about what is in it. Better to leave a coin untouched than to start doing things like removing patina, etc. IMO. If grime is what you seek to remove, acetone and a sonic bath used properly will do the trick.
@ColonelJessup said:
Maybe it's just my use of language, but "neutralize" seems inapplicable.
The chemical reactions from the various anhydrides are essentially instantaneous. Those surface molecules are now totally inert. Chemists, please correct if I'm misinformed.
From that point on, you're involved in the purely physical process of rinsing off crud, and nearly everything said here about rinses works.
That slimy feeling? Part of it is your skin melting.
Baking soda is a great neutralizer for acids.
It has both chemical and physical properties, so maybe the 40 years old VanAllen-Mallis advice on scrubbing with a slurry of it (physical) has obscured the effect of its chemical properties.
1) Coffee cup or anything 3+ inches deep.
2) Fill with water with a little room at the top.
3) Add 1/2 teaspoon of baking soda
4) Wait 30 seconds. At this point the baking soda has give you a -PH solution and the abrasive granules have sunk to the bottom
5) Immerse coin in the top inch of the water. You can take your time, some acids take longer to neutralize
6) rinse coin
Where do the "anhydrides" come from?
In the case of using MS70 which is basic, then neutralizing with a mild acid seems appropriate. Obviously you need a slight excess of acid to ensure that all basic compounds are removed. The acid should be able to be readily removed as well.
@kaz said:
So MS70 is basically a detergent, which removes organic matter, grease, etc. Acetone also removes organics and other than the fumes and fire risk I find it very simple to use. Why would anyone prefer MS70 over acetone?
I do believe MS-70 is concentrated lye or caustic soda.
It's close. lye is sodium hydroxide, MS70 contains potassium hydroxide, very similar compounds. NaOH and KOH are both very caustic alkalis.
@spacehayduke said: "Better yet, just don't do anything to your coins except a possible acetone bath....Here is my MS70 experience on a half cent that was wiped with terrible scratches across front and back that allowed it to be a sacrifical lamb. After the MS70 treatment, over time, the blue went away without any additional chemicals."
We should be very glad you don't run a conservation service. Send coin to be conserved in 2011 and get it back three years later...lol.
Well, now I see why you hate MS-70. This is an excellent reason for inexperienced folks not to touch their coins. I liked the before and that is one coin you should have never touched with MS-70. See how the spots stand out now. Your coin was nicer in the before photo. Even the after is fairly decent compared to the last photo as "blue" is good.
@kaz said:
So MS70 is basically a detergent, which removes organic matter, grease, etc. Acetone also removes organics and other than the fumes and fire risk I find it very simple to use. Why would anyone prefer MS70 over acetone?
I do believe MS-70 is concentrated lye or caustic soda.
It's close. lye is sodium hydroxide, MS70 contains potassium hydroxide, very similar compounds. NaOH and KOH are both very caustic alkalis.
Potassium hydroxide KOH is commonly called caustic potash.
@spacehayduke said: "Better yet, just don't do anything to your coins except a possible acetone bath....Here is my MS70 experience on a half cent that was wiped with terrible scratches across front and back that allowed it to be a sacrifical lamb. After the MS70 treatment, over time, the blue went away without any additional chemicals."
We should be very glad you don't run a conservation service. Send coin to be conserved in 2011 and get it back three years later...lol.
Well, now I see why you hate MS-70. This is an excellent reason for inexperienced folks not to touch their coins. I liked the before and that is one coin you should have never touched with MS-70. See how the spots stand out now. Your coin was nicer in the before photo. Even the after is fairly decent compared to the last photo as "blue" is good.
Yeah throw me in that inexperienced folks camp, I already managed to do a number on some cheaper coins
I knew the man ( a very nice guy) who invented MS 70. A PHD chemist, and a wholesale coin dealer on the side. Many big name dealers knew him and bought from him. When visiting his industrial cleaning business many times to buy some MS 70 which he taught me to use. I would see gallon containers of it on the floor being ready to be shipped out and I had a small bottle in my hand.
I said, who is using this stuff in this quantity, he would not say, but he was an NGC registered dealer and had ties to NGC. He sold the business some years ago and I believe the mixture was changed though I am not positive on that point.
The ingredients my not have change and if so, possibly not there concentrations either. I will say this, the color of the product HAS CHANGED three times since I've ordered it. On calls to the supplier on two occasions we were told that no changes have taken place. Seems to work OK but I know several folks who have saved a bottle of the "original" (?), dark topaz colored MS-70 to use on very expensive coins.
I have sampled numerous rail cars full of caustic and its not always clear. It is sometimes cloudy light brown. We send the samples to the lab and they have never rejected it. Part of the reason the MS70 may change color is because of that. ?? just a guess
"May the silver waves that bear you heavenward be filled with love’s whisperings"
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
MS-70 producers said the color can change from batch to batch. Look, I don't believe hardly anything I'm told by anyone about anything without backup or verification. I've not seen a bottle of dark, (early 2000's vintage) MS-70 outside of a LOCKED chemical safe in 8 - 9 years!
@1Mike1 said:
I have sampled numerous rail cars full of caustic and its not always clear. It is sometimes cloudy light brown. We send the samples to the lab and they have never rejected it. Part of the reason the MS70 may change color is because of that. ?? just a guess
That could simply be from the rail car having residue from the previous shipment. The cloudiness from some absorbed carbon dioxide. Obviously not detrimental to your intended application/s.
Comments
I really enjoy your posts!
@spacehayduke said:
Well said. Believe what you wish as long as you understand that your belief and mine are different and no one gives a rat's whisker about either opinion. Especially anyone who cleans coins professionally and gets paid to do it.
Obviously, you are making a joke. IMHO, there are already too many "proprietary secrets" expressed in this thread and on Internet forums to help "ham-fisted-ignorant-idiots" destroy perfectly good coins!
I should think that if any conservation specialist, coin doctor, or conservation service even used MS-70 on a coin, they would know how to remove the greasy traces it leaves. Agree?
I should like to know also. Just think how disappointed a collector would be if they did use it on any coins and the collector found out that in your words "THE COIN WAS DOCTORED."
Perhaps you are not thinking this out. All I will say is we will both probably be long gone before any lab writes how/what they do to conserve our coins. It's bad for business. Enjoy the results (if they are to your liking) when you receive the coins back. Unfortunately, I have lately read of some bad results but I have not seen the proof.
One solution to your question that I can share with you is this: If you inquire about attending one of the classes taught by ANA's instructor Brian Silliman who formerly worked at NCS, you could ask him in private.
There is an entire thread on this subject on CU. I shall not open that can of worms here...LOL!
I'm actually going to try MS70 on some copper lincolns tomorrow because it occurred to me that the blue on my proof IHC may have been induced by the chemical (I'm no chemist by trade, so I have no idea if or how copper reacts with it), and will post my results here for the world to see!
Maybe it's just my use of language, but "neutralize" seems inapplicable.
The chemical reactions from the various anhydrides are essentially instantaneous. Those surface molecules are now totally inert. Chemists, please correct if I'm misinformed.
From that point on, you're involved in the purely physical process of rinsing off crud, and nearly everything said here about rinses works.
That slimy feeling? Part of it is your skin melting.
Baking soda is a great neutralizer for acids.
It has both chemical and physical properties, so maybe the 40 years old VanAllen-Mallis advice on scrubbing with a slurry of it (physical) has obscured the effect of its chemical properties.
1) Coffee cup or anything 3+ inches deep.
2) Fill with water with a little room at the top.
3) Add 1/2 teaspoon of baking soda
4) Wait 30 seconds. At this point the baking soda has give you a -PH solution and the abrasive granules have sunk to the bottom
5) Immerse coin in the top inch of the water. You can take your time, some acids take longer to neutralize
6) rinse coin
@stealer said: "I'm actually going to try MS70 on some copper lincolns tomorrow because it occurred to me that the blue on my proof IHC may have been induced by the chemical (I'm no chemist by trade, so I have no idea if or how copper reacts with it), and will post my results here for the world to see!"
Blue is the new $$$ at this time. Don't play with the blue proof!
Anytime you wish to remove the blue iridescence from copper, all it takes is a little Coin Care or nose oil...Yikes!
And for those who can afford it, get an Ultrasonic, even the cheap ones for jewelry can get ALL your chemicals into the microscopic places they normally will not reach.
PS Baking soda, distilled water, and chemicals are cheap. Make sure you do not overuse them. Fresh is good!
Squalene qualifies.
Works better than ambergris, easier to find and needs no refinement.
What's "Squalene?" Easier to ask than get off and look. Sorry.
Better yet, just don't do anything to your coins except a possible acetone bath........
Here is my MS70 experience on a half cent that was wiped with terrible scratches across front and back that allowed it to be a sacrifical lamb. After the MS70 treatment, over time, the blue went away without any additional chemicals.
Best, SH
Yup I did actually make this point tongue in cheek knowing NCS et al. would never reveal what they do. HST, what I meant by 'greasy sheen' is not by 'feel', but by 'look' even after whatever is done to remove the MS70 from the surface - it is what it does to the surfaces to result in that look. HST.2 I have talked to Brian on several occasions one on one in my days of experimentation. He used to come to shows where you could discuss things about 'conservation' with him. What I learned is that even privately he is very good at not discussing what NCS does, and I am sure he had to sign some legal document upon leaving that would keep those secrets today. HST.3, one wonders what a little alcohol (we are not talking industrial grade ethonal but some good old fashioned scotch) could do to loosen up his tongue...........
But the short answer is, I have never seen the MS70 look on an NCS conserved coin, does not mean they have never used it, but I suspect they would see similar results that others have found and remove it from the list of their safe conservation chemicals. It is pretty harsh stuff as others have noted in this thread about what is in it. Better to leave a coin untouched than to start doing things like removing patina, etc. IMO. If grime is what you seek to remove, acetone and a sonic bath used properly will do the trick.
Best, SH
Where do the "anhydrides" come from?
In the case of using MS70 which is basic, then neutralizing with a mild acid seems appropriate. Obviously you need a slight excess of acid to ensure that all basic compounds are removed. The acid should be able to be readily removed as well.
Squalene is a 30 carbon unsaturated hydrocarbon which can be obtained from shark liver oil.
It's close. lye is sodium hydroxide, MS70 contains potassium hydroxide, very similar compounds. NaOH and KOH are both very caustic alkalis.
We should be very glad you don't run a conservation service. Send coin to be conserved in 2011 and get it back three years later...lol.
![](https://us.v-cdn.net/6027503/uploads/editor/cv/6v90k0yp17b7.jpg ""
Well, now I see why you hate MS-70. This is an excellent reason for inexperienced folks not to touch their coins. I liked the before and that is one coin you should have never touched with MS-70. See how the spots stand out now. Your coin was nicer in the before photo. Even the after is fairly decent compared to the last photo as "blue" is good.
Potassium hydroxide KOH is commonly called caustic potash.
Thank you so it is an oil I can apply to copper like Care?
PS Thanks for the answer and chemistry lesson.
Since it's a liquid at room temperature, you could do that.
Yeah throw me in that inexperienced folks camp, I already managed to do a number on some cheaper coins
But I've saved a handful as well
Don't give up. Suggestion. Next coin show, buy a dozen old British Cents from a junk box (best grade you can pick) and try working on them.
I knew the man ( a very nice guy) who invented MS 70. A PHD chemist, and a wholesale coin dealer on the side. Many big name dealers knew him and bought from him. When visiting his industrial cleaning business many times to buy some MS 70 which he taught me to use. I would see gallon containers of it on the floor being ready to be shipped out and I had a small bottle in my hand.
I said, who is using this stuff in this quantity, he would not say, but he was an NGC registered dealer and had ties to NGC. He sold the business some years ago and I believe the mixture was changed though I am not positive on that point.
Krueger
The ingredients my not have change and if so, possibly not there concentrations either. I will say this, the color of the product HAS CHANGED three times since I've ordered it. On calls to the supplier on two occasions we were told that no changes have taken place. Seems to work OK but I know several folks who have saved a bottle of the "original" (?), dark topaz colored MS-70 to use on very expensive coins.
I have sampled numerous rail cars full of caustic and its not always clear. It is sometimes cloudy light brown. We send the samples to the lab and they have never rejected it. Part of the reason the MS70 may change color is because of that. ?? just a guess
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
MS-70 producers said the color can change from batch to batch. Look, I don't believe hardly anything I'm told by anyone about anything without backup or verification. I've not seen a bottle of dark, (early 2000's vintage) MS-70 outside of a LOCKED chemical safe in 8 - 9 years!
That could simply be from the rail car having residue from the previous shipment. The cloudiness from some absorbed carbon dioxide. Obviously not detrimental to your intended application/s.