If the Europeans are cutting some dealers "a break" on buyer's fees, that's between them and the house. It still shouldn't affect what the consignor has negotiated on their net fees. It said dealer is working for the consignor as well, that's sort of a conflict of interest. As I said before, charge me a 100% buyer's fee....because I know how to divide a coin's FMV by 2. Scottsman or anyone else that suggests any part of 105% hammer is "paid for" by the buyer's fee (ie the buyer), is simply incorrect. It only happens to show up on the buyer's invoice. The auction house could just as well put a notation at the bottom of the buyer's invoice stating that the buyer backed their bids off by 17.5% and in "spirit," failed to pay a true buyer's premium. It still comes out of the consignor's check 90-95% or more of the time. The 5-10% leaves room for newbies who just don't get it and will bid FMV when hammer is called for.
I haven't paid a seller's fee since 1989. Back then the 10% BF was in play. And for smaller consignments you were not going to get hammer as that meant giving up a net 91%. The few times I consigned in the 1980's I typically netted 87-89% which was approx a 2-4% sellers fee - to go along with the 10% buyer's fee (97/110). Since the move to 15% buyer's fees....hammer is the norm (0% seller fee) as even at that rate you're only getting 86.95%. With the move to 20% buyer's fee, 104% to 105% hammer should be the normal minimum.
@tradedollarnut said:
The buyers premium is never negotiable
The point is can it be shared between the auction house and the buyer's representative?
Not that I know of ...
In the United States.
In Germany, for example, the house does give dealer buyers a lower fee, and that is often how those dealers are paid for representing clients.
If that system becomes the policy here, the time will have come to get hell out of this hobby. I love coins, but I have what the auction houses and CAC are doing to it. The people who are running the markets are soon going to have a lot fewer customers.
If I had a nickel for every time Bill threatened to leave the hobby....
Only recently and only after the auctions have become so bad. It's not fun any more.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
If that system becomes the policy here, the time will have come to get hell out of this hobby. I love coins, but I have what the auction houses and CAC are doing to it. The people who are running the markets are soon going to have a lot fewer customers.
If I had a nickel for every time Bill threatened to leave the hobby....
You would need the Costco size Folgers can to keep them in.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
NO BODY has any decent coins for sale. As a dealer you have an inside track. I used to be a dealer. Stuff changes hands that collectors never get to see.
In the mean time a couple of fools are paying three and four times the price for 1877 Twenty Cent Pieces. They are buying every one in sight. And the funny part is they have been buying mostly "dreck."
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
If that system becomes the policy here, the time will have come to get hell out of this hobby. I love coins, but I have what the auction houses and CAC are doing to it. The people who are running the markets are soon going to have a lot fewer customers.
If I had a nickel for every time Bill threatened to leave the hobby....
You would need the Costco size Folgers can to keep them in.
mark
Why are you ganging up on me? it's been the two and a half weeks from hell. I've been in the hospital and I feel like hell. I missed the summer FUN show because of it.
I said a month ago that I had a short want list and that I'd like to fill it. After that I was going into a hiatus. There are no great rarities on it, and yet there is nothing to buy.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Great coins are indeed hard to find. Heck even good coins are challenging. Bill what you are going through I went through the same for the past two years with a Libertas Medal. I was the underbidder at every single auction for 63 and 64 PCGS graded pieces. I found out that it was one guy buying them and he would not be denied no matter how stupid high my bid was. I had to wait for him to tucker himself out. I'm glad I did and I ended up with a superior piece that has been off the market for 60+ years. You will get your 1877 20 center.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I haven't done all the math, but it occurs to me to be an interesting psychology involved in raising bidders' premiums over time. For example, the auction houses ALWAYS seem to round off the hammer prices to very ROUND numbers during live auctions, and every time the buyers' rates go up, the final price goes up. We've seen creep up in buyers' fees in my time in numismatics go from a standard 10% to 15% to 17.5% and now 20%. So what does this mean? A lot of things. But in the model I am suggesting, the coin that the auction house gets to $1000 hammer, used to cost the bidder $1100 (at 10%), then $1150, $1175, then $1200, Yes, you can always work backwards to how much you want to pay, and should bid accordingly, but the way the auction houses encourages round number bids results in most live bids being a next ROUND increment and thus more money netted on the coins. Clearly, auctioneers don't want to propose hammer bids of $8333 or $9426, it's just too hard to do. So they round, and subtly the prices go up with each increasing buyers' premium. By going up 5% or 2.5% in small increments over the years, the effect may be felt less (think standard postal rates, for example).
Not sure if I am making much sense to anyone else, but I see increases in buyers' fees to be a great potential, albeit small in each case, to increase how much the auction houses make.
@Justacommeman said:
Great coins are indeed hard to find. Heck even good coins are challenging. Bill what you are going through I went through the same for the past two years with a Libertas Medal. I was the underbidder at every single auction for 63 and 64 PCGS graded pieces. I found out that it was one guy buying them and he would not be denied no matter how stupid high my bid was. I had to wait for him to tucker himself out. I'm glad I did and I ended up with a superior piece that has been off the market for 60+ years. You will get your 1877 20 center.
mark
I'm sorry you had to go through that Mark. I bought one that is probably not as good as your piece more than 20 years ago. At that time a dealer in Boston had somewhere around 50 examples of the Libertas medeal which ranged in grade from half way decent to green, corroded ground salvage. Stacks' had one with traces of red on it for $2,000 in their retail operation. The bronze examples of that medal are not that rare.
So far as the 1877 20 center goes, I can only look at the 1909-VDB cent in Matte Proof I once considered adding to my collection. I thought it would be neat to have all of the 20th century types in Proof barring the really tough ones like like Peace Dollar. We all it's over for most us on that one because one guy owns a huge chunk of the population. If you are 30 years old you can wait for that hoard to finally be sold, but when you have a decade or less as a collector the prospects are bleak.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
If that system becomes the policy here, the time will have come to get hell out of this hobby. I love coins, but I have what the auction houses and CAC are doing to it. The people who are running the markets are soon going to have a lot fewer customers.
If I had a nickel for every time Bill threatened to leave the hobby....
You would need the Costco size Folgers can to keep them in.
mark
Why are you ganging up on me? it's been the two and a half weeks from hell. I've been in the hospital and I feel like hell. I missed the summer FUN show because of it.
I said a month ago that I had a short want list and that I'd like to fill it. After that I was going into a hiatus. There are no great rarities on it, and yet there is nothing to buy.
I agree with DrPete's summary above, when bidding on the bourse floor in person. Though, for internet bidding such as at GC, there are no round number increments....and buyers have time to closely calculate a precise bid. Bidders such as myself pick the FMV for a coin we desire, then back out the GC 10% buyer's fee. My last significant coin at GC was won with a bid of $1357.26....not a round number.
While they can do round number bids on the live auction floor, you can still toss out split bids or pick a number less than a full bid increment. If you're bidding before the live session you can leave a bid in any amount you desire. If the auctioneer is asking for $1000 (+20% fee) on a FMV $1175 coin ($950 bid was just hit), you could still toss out a bid of $980 if that's where you're comfortable. An internet bidder might have already left a bid for $977.
@Justacommeman said:
Great coins are indeed hard to find. Heck even good coins are challenging. Bill what you are going through I went through the same for the past two years with a Libertas Medal. I was the underbidder at every single auction for 63 and 64 PCGS graded pieces. I found out that it was one guy buying them and he would not be denied no matter how stupid high my bid was. I had to wait for him to tucker himself out. I'm glad I did and I ended up with a superior piece that has been off the market for 60+ years. You will get your 1877 20 center.
mark
I'm sorry you had to go through that Mark. I bought one that is probably not as good as your piece more than 20 years ago. At that time a dealer in Boston had somewhere around 50 examples of the Libertas medeal which ranged in grade from half way decent to green, corroded ground salvage. Stacks' had one with traces of red on it for $2,000 in their retail operation. The bronze examples of that medal are not that rare.
My times have changed. The last 63 to sell went for 33k. It was ok. In PCGS there are maybe 20 MS 63 to MS 65 unique pieces. I ended up with a 63+ that had been off the market for the last 50+ years with the same owner. It ended up being worth the wait and then some. I hope the same happens for you.
FYI with the help of a dealer friend we got Pcgs to update their price guide on this as it was obviously lagging
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
We had a debate today on dropping the buyer's fee. Bottom line is that we feel it would cost us consignments if we couldn't match 110% of hammer....even though 100% of 110% is exactly the same.
I'm not real sure what the big issue is with the BF. The BUYER'S FEE is NEVER negotiable. It's a level playing field to ALL buyers out of auctions, whether you're Kevin Lipton, Brett Pogue, or John Albanese. If you want to pay $2000 all in for a certain lot, you'll figure the 20% and decide what you want to pay at the hammer. It won't change what you actually pay at the end of the day. The SELLER'S fee is usually negotiable depending on a number of factors including, but not limited to, the size of the consignment, potential reserves, special cataloging requests, etc. A $10,000 consignment will not get as good of a deal as a $1,000,000 consignment. Also, you probably won't get as good a deal with a $10,000 consignment with reserves as you would the same consignment unreserved.
I agree with all that CNN just said. I would only qualify the definition of "seller's" fee. The "seller's" fee mentioned in the auction Terms and Conditions is not the same "seller's" fee that shows up on your invoice/check. It all comes out in the wash by the consignor appropriately negotiating the premium to hammer that they receive.
We had a debate today on dropping the buyer's fee. Bottom line is that we feel it would cost us consignments if we couldn't match 110% of hammer....even though 100% of 110% is exactly the same.
If that's indeed how most consignors approach auction fees....then Great Collections is leaving money on the table with their 10% buyer's fee.
I spoke to Ian today when I was over at GC. I don't believe he has any intention of raising fees at this point. Also my guess would be that HA will follow suit with Stacks. GC will be the big winner in this change IMO
@roadrunner said:
I agree with all that CNN just said. I would only qualify the definition of "seller's" fee. The "seller's" fee mentioned in the auction Terms and Conditions is not the same "seller's" fee that shows up on your invoice/check. It all comes out in the wash by the consignor appropriately negotiating the premium to hammer that they receive.
We had a debate today on dropping the buyer's fee. Bottom line is that we feel it would cost us consignments if we couldn't match 110% of hammer....even though 100% of 110% is exactly the same.
If that's indeed how most consignors approach auction fees....then Great Collections is leaving money on the table with their 10% buyer's fee.
The lower buyers' has encouraged me to spend more time at Great Collections and less time at Stacks' and probably Heritage if they follow suit with the buyers' fee,
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
I feel like we should organize a no-more-auctions intervention for Bill. You know, an unexpected knock on the door, surround him with a group hug, read tear-soaked handwritten statements about how his anti-buyer's-premium-threads and threats to leave numismatics have affected us, everybody weeping, etc. It's the catharsis the forum needs.
@Washingtoniana said:
I feel like we should organize a no-more-auctions intervention for Bill. You know, an unexpected knock on the door, surround him with a group hug, read tear-soaked handwritten statements about how his anti-buyer's-premium-threads and threats to leave numismatics have affected us, everybody weeping, etc. It's the catharsis the forum needs.
I'm in.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I keep reading that this only really impacts consignors but I don't see where buyers shouldn't care about this. I am a simple uneducated man who has concluded that the only possible reason for this increase is for the auction house to make more money. (Could there be any other reason?) I get it that I can adjust my bid accordingly. Yeah, that's fine. But somewhere in my head I keep thinking that the coin I just won is somehow now 2.5% lower in net value than it would have been if the buyers fee was 17.5%. Where am I going wrong with this thinking.
Joseph J. Singleton - First Superintendent of the U.S. Branch Mint in Dahlonega Georgia
My calculations in another thread show the auction house will actually make less money on any given consignment (assuming 'in the know' consignors who demand a % of hammer). This is all about getting consignments in the first place - who are most going to consign with - the company offering 105% or the company offering 110%?
@tradedollarnut said:
My calculations in another thread show the auction house will actually make less money on any given consignment (assuming 'in the know' consignors who demand a % of hammer). This is all about getting consignments in the first place - who are most going to consign with - the company offering 105% or the company offering 110%?
Yes, but really counts is the hammer price, and if the auction houses keep on in their present mode, they going find out that depressed hammer prices are going to bite them in the butt, especially for less than "Rarities Night" level material.
I have often been amused when these guys brag about the high prices they get to attract consignments. On the other side are the buyers. Do you really want to buy from the highest priced dealers when there are cheaper alternatives?
I'm not in the market for the finest known examples. I had only limited interest in anything that was in the Pogue sales so far as adding to my collection because I knew I as out of my league in those sales. I had an interest in the finest known 1838-C half eagle, but I knew going in I had no chance. It was silly to have a "pennies for Pugue" saving fund because the guys who buy in those sales don't have worry about saving money for the sale. They already have it in the bank.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@JJSingleton said:
..... I keep thinking that the coin I just won is somehow now 2.5% lower in net value than it would have been if the buyers fee was 17.5%. Where am I going wrong with this thinking.
If this were truly the case, then since the advent of buyer's fees about 30 years ago, all of our coins would have declined 17.5%-20% in value based on that reason alone. Someone would have noticed.
New England Rare Coin Galleries introduced the buyers' fee to the American market, and it was 10% at that time.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
The modern buyer’s premium was introduced in 1975 by Sotheby’s and Christie’s; the two houses charged 10 percent then. Today, the houses charge buyers premiums of up to 30 percent.
@JJSingleton said:
..... I keep thinking that the coin I just won is somehow now 2.5% lower in net value than it would have been if the buyers fee was 17.5%. Where am I going wrong with this thinking.
If this were truly the case, then since the advent of buyer's fees about 30 years ago, all of our coins would have declined 17.5%-20% in value based on that reason alone. Someone would have noticed.
And maybe they have declined 17.5%-20% in value from what could/should have been. Again, it is that sound of millions and millions of dollars being sucked out of the market by auction houses, us mint, and the TPGs we hear.
Joseph J. Singleton - First Superintendent of the U.S. Branch Mint in Dahlonega Georgia
Contemporaneously with "Be a Ho! Be somebody!" If Eddie Murphy collected coins, to whom would he consign them?
Did NERCG import a capitalistic tool from a socialist society? Maybe it was an orphan, and Jared got involved.
When you're that sharp, you don't even have to be born yet to do fantastic (in the truest sense) work.
I have an agenda and a conscience. I will tag this post as abusive myself
edited to add: Evidently that specific form of self-abuse is not permitted on the Forum.
Sad. Very sad.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
In auctions, the buyer's premium is a percentage additional charge on the hammer price (winning bid at auction) of the lot that must be paid by the winner. It is charged by the auctioneer to cover administrative expenses. The buyer's premium typically goes directly to the auction house and not to the seller.
If the auction houses true "admin expenses" are running 20-30%, they need to slimmer on down now.
I know a lot of you say it doesn't matter, but a 20% buyers premium just makes me want to buy my coins somewhere else. I know the math, but somewhere deep down inside on my hierarchy of needs, Maslow is telling me I am being screwed. Hope you like this one @ricko
Easy to calculate that gross margins are under 7%. But a few basis points on a billion bucks a year adds up.
@cnncoins spends megabucks at auctions. And yet he is consistently asked for his bidder card in the food line. Evidently his exit from StacksBowers wasn't as smooth as it seemed. Raeleen at GC gets him his favorite gelato when he comes to look at sales. Even if he buys nothing! @Laurie has sushi hand-delivered from nearby Nobu to her reserved seat at Goldberg auctions. LarryG gave up raw fish, but she still gets her 24 pieces of maguro and the use of his vibrating massage chair.
I buy @JohnnyBeGood sushi and get O-toro for both of us. We all know how many stickers that's worth.
Excellent pyramid, but is buying great coins a form of self-actualization?
Regrettably, yes.......
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
Comments
My online buying is only GC and the Bay. I refuse to bid on some venue charging a 20 but buyers fee.
If the Europeans are cutting some dealers "a break" on buyer's fees, that's between them and the house. It still shouldn't affect what the consignor has negotiated on their net fees. It said dealer is working for the consignor as well, that's sort of a conflict of interest. As I said before, charge me a 100% buyer's fee....because I know how to divide a coin's FMV by 2. Scottsman or anyone else that suggests any part of 105% hammer is "paid for" by the buyer's fee (ie the buyer), is simply incorrect. It only happens to show up on the buyer's invoice. The auction house could just as well put a notation at the bottom of the buyer's invoice stating that the buyer backed their bids off by 17.5% and in "spirit," failed to pay a true buyer's premium. It still comes out of the consignor's check 90-95% or more of the time. The 5-10% leaves room for newbies who just don't get it and will bid FMV when hammer is called for.
I haven't paid a seller's fee since 1989. Back then the 10% BF was in play. And for smaller consignments you were not going to get hammer as that meant giving up a net 91%. The few times I consigned in the 1980's I typically netted 87-89% which was approx a 2-4% sellers fee - to go along with the 10% buyer's fee (97/110). Since the move to 15% buyer's fees....hammer is the norm (0% seller fee) as even at that rate you're only getting 86.95%. With the move to 20% buyer's fee, 104% to 105% hammer should be the normal minimum.
Only recently and only after the auctions have become so bad. It's not fun any more.
I rarely buy from auctions and I still have a blast. You just need to alter your buying pattern
You would need the Costco size Folgers can to keep them in.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
NO BODY has any decent coins for sale. As a dealer you have an inside track. I used to be a dealer. Stuff changes hands that collectors never get to see.
In the mean time a couple of fools are paying three and four times the price for 1877 Twenty Cent Pieces. They are buying every one in sight. And the funny part is they have been buying mostly "dreck."
Why are you ganging up on me? it's been the two and a half weeks from hell. I've been in the hospital and I feel like hell. I missed the summer FUN show because of it.
I said a month ago that I had a short want list and that I'd like to fill it. After that I was going into a hiatus. There are no great rarities on it, and yet there is nothing to buy.
Great coins are indeed hard to find. Heck even good coins are challenging. Bill what you are going through I went through the same for the past two years with a Libertas Medal. I was the underbidder at every single auction for 63 and 64 PCGS graded pieces. I found out that it was one guy buying them and he would not be denied no matter how stupid high my bid was. I had to wait for him to tucker himself out. I'm glad I did and I ended up with a superior piece that has been off the market for 60+ years. You will get your 1877 20 center.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I haven't done all the math, but it occurs to me to be an interesting psychology involved in raising bidders' premiums over time. For example, the auction houses ALWAYS seem to round off the hammer prices to very ROUND numbers during live auctions, and every time the buyers' rates go up, the final price goes up. We've seen creep up in buyers' fees in my time in numismatics go from a standard 10% to 15% to 17.5% and now 20%. So what does this mean? A lot of things. But in the model I am suggesting, the coin that the auction house gets to $1000 hammer, used to cost the bidder $1100 (at 10%), then $1150, $1175, then $1200, Yes, you can always work backwards to how much you want to pay, and should bid accordingly, but the way the auction houses encourages round number bids results in most live bids being a next ROUND increment and thus more money netted on the coins. Clearly, auctioneers don't want to propose hammer bids of $8333 or $9426, it's just too hard to do. So they round, and subtly the prices go up with each increasing buyers' premium. By going up 5% or 2.5% in small increments over the years, the effect may be felt less (think standard postal rates, for example).
Not sure if I am making much sense to anyone else, but I see increases in buyers' fees to be a great potential, albeit small in each case, to increase how much the auction houses make.
I'm sorry you had to go through that Mark. I bought one that is probably not as good as your piece more than 20 years ago. At that time a dealer in Boston had somewhere around 50 examples of the Libertas medeal which ranged in grade from half way decent to green, corroded ground salvage. Stacks' had one with traces of red on it for $2,000 in their retail operation. The bronze examples of that medal are not that rare.
So far as the 1877 20 center goes, I can only look at the 1909-VDB cent in Matte Proof I once considered adding to my collection. I thought it would be neat to have all of the 20th century types in Proof barring the really tough ones like like Peace Dollar. We all it's over for most us on that one because one guy owns a huge chunk of the population. If you are 30 years old you can wait for that hoard to finally be sold, but when you have a decade or less as a collector the prospects are bleak.
20%
how to gouge
I hope you feel better.
I agree with DrPete's summary above, when bidding on the bourse floor in person. Though, for internet bidding such as at GC, there are no round number increments....and buyers have time to closely calculate a precise bid. Bidders such as myself pick the FMV for a coin we desire, then back out the GC 10% buyer's fee. My last significant coin at GC was won with a bid of $1357.26....not a round number.
While they can do round number bids on the live auction floor, you can still toss out split bids or pick a number less than a full bid increment. If you're bidding before the live session you can leave a bid in any amount you desire. If the auctioneer is asking for $1000 (+20% fee) on a FMV $1175 coin ($950 bid was just hit), you could still toss out a bid of $980 if that's where you're comfortable. An internet bidder might have already left a bid for $977.
My times have changed. The last 63 to sell went for 33k. It was ok. In PCGS there are maybe 20 MS 63 to MS 65 unique pieces. I ended up with a 63+ that had been off the market for the last 50+ years with the same owner. It ended up being worth the wait and then some. I hope the same happens for you.
FYI with the help of a dealer friend we got Pcgs to update their price guide on this as it was obviously lagging
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
We had a debate today on dropping the buyer's fee. Bottom line is that we feel it would cost us consignments if we couldn't match 110% of hammer....even though 100% of 110% is exactly the same.
I'm not real sure what the big issue is with the BF. The BUYER'S FEE is NEVER negotiable. It's a level playing field to ALL buyers out of auctions, whether you're Kevin Lipton, Brett Pogue, or John Albanese. If you want to pay $2000 all in for a certain lot, you'll figure the 20% and decide what you want to pay at the hammer. It won't change what you actually pay at the end of the day. The SELLER'S fee is usually negotiable depending on a number of factors including, but not limited to, the size of the consignment, potential reserves, special cataloging requests, etc. A $10,000 consignment will not get as good of a deal as a $1,000,000 consignment. Also, you probably won't get as good a deal with a $10,000 consignment with reserves as you would the same consignment unreserved.
I agree with all that CNN just said. I would only qualify the definition of "seller's" fee. The "seller's" fee mentioned in the auction Terms and Conditions is not the same "seller's" fee that shows up on your invoice/check. It all comes out in the wash by the consignor appropriately negotiating the premium to hammer that they receive.
We had a debate today on dropping the buyer's fee. Bottom line is that we feel it would cost us consignments if we couldn't match 110% of hammer....even though 100% of 110% is exactly the same.
If that's indeed how most consignors approach auction fees....then Great Collections is leaving money on the table with their 10% buyer's fee.
I spoke to Ian today when I was over at GC. I don't believe he has any intention of raising fees at this point. Also my guess would be that HA will follow suit with Stacks. GC will be the big winner in this change IMO
The lower buyers' has encouraged me to spend more time at Great Collections and less time at Stacks' and probably Heritage if they follow suit with the buyers' fee,
I feel like we should organize a no-more-auctions intervention for Bill. You know, an unexpected knock on the door, surround him with a group hug, read tear-soaked handwritten statements about how his anti-buyer's-premium-threads and threats to leave numismatics have affected us, everybody weeping, etc. It's the catharsis the forum needs.
I'm in.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I keep reading that this only really impacts consignors but I don't see where buyers shouldn't care about this. I am a simple uneducated man who has concluded that the only possible reason for this increase is for the auction house to make more money. (Could there be any other reason?) I get it that I can adjust my bid accordingly. Yeah, that's fine. But somewhere in my head I keep thinking that the coin I just won is somehow now 2.5% lower in net value than it would have been if the buyers fee was 17.5%. Where am I going wrong with this thinking.
Joseph J. Singleton - First Superintendent of the U.S. Branch Mint in Dahlonega Georgia
Findley Ridge Collection
About Findley Ridge
My calculations in another thread show the auction house will actually make less money on any given consignment (assuming 'in the know' consignors who demand a % of hammer). This is all about getting consignments in the first place - who are most going to consign with - the company offering 105% or the company offering 110%?
Yes, but really counts is the hammer price, and if the auction houses keep on in their present mode, they going find out that depressed hammer prices are going to bite them in the butt, especially for less than "Rarities Night" level material.
I have often been amused when these guys brag about the high prices they get to attract consignments. On the other side are the buyers. Do you really want to buy from the highest priced dealers when there are cheaper alternatives?
I'm not in the market for the finest known examples. I had only limited interest in anything that was in the Pogue sales so far as adding to my collection because I knew I as out of my league in those sales. I had an interest in the finest known 1838-C half eagle, but I knew going in I had no chance. It was silly to have a "pennies for Pugue" saving fund because the guys who buy in those sales don't have worry about saving money for the sale. They already have it in the bank.
If this were truly the case, then since the advent of buyer's fees about 30 years ago, all of our coins would have declined 17.5%-20% in value based on that reason alone. Someone would have noticed.
New England Rare Coin Galleries introduced the buyers' fee to the American market, and it was 10% at that time.
The modern buyer’s premium was introduced in 1975 by Sotheby’s and Christie’s; the two houses charged 10 percent then. Today, the houses charge buyers premiums of up to 30 percent.
It took the US coin dealers a while to catch on.
http://grumpyarthistorian.blogspot.com/2013/06/explaining-buyers-premium-and-handy.html
This art historian agrees with TDN that the escalation of buyer's premiums came about to win more consignments.
And maybe they have declined 17.5%-20% in value from what could/should have been. Again, it is that sound of millions and millions of dollars being sucked out of the market by auction houses, us mint, and the TPGs we hear.
Joseph J. Singleton - First Superintendent of the U.S. Branch Mint in Dahlonega Georgia
Findley Ridge Collection
About Findley Ridge
Contemporaneously with "Be a Ho! Be somebody!" If Eddie Murphy collected coins, to whom would he consign them?
Did NERCG import a capitalistic tool from a socialist society? Maybe it was an orphan, and Jared got involved.
When you're that sharp, you don't even have to be born yet to do fantastic (in the truest sense) work.
I have an agenda and a conscience.
I will tag this post as abusive myself 
edited to add: Evidently that specific form of self-abuse is not permitted on the Forum.
Sad. Very sad.
Even Wiki has a strange notion of auction fees.
In auctions, the buyer's premium is a percentage additional charge on the hammer price (winning bid at auction) of the lot that must be paid by the winner. It is charged by the auctioneer to cover administrative expenses. The buyer's premium typically goes directly to the auction house and not to the seller.
If the auction houses true "admin expenses" are running 20-30%, they need to slimmer on down now.
I know a lot of you say it doesn't matter, but a 20% buyers premium just makes me want to buy my coins somewhere else. I know the math, but somewhere deep down inside on my hierarchy of needs, Maslow is telling me I am being screwed. Hope you like this one @ricko
Easy to calculate that gross margins are under 7%. But a few basis points on a billion bucks a year adds up.
@cnncoins spends megabucks at auctions. And yet he is consistently asked for his bidder card in the food line. Evidently his exit from StacksBowers wasn't as smooth as it seemed. Raeleen at GC gets him his favorite gelato when he comes to look at sales. Even if he buys nothing!
@Laurie has sushi hand-delivered from nearby Nobu to her reserved seat at Goldberg auctions. LarryG gave up raw fish, but she still gets her 24 pieces of maguro and the use of his vibrating massage chair.
I buy @JohnnyBeGood sushi and get O-toro for both of us. We all know how many stickers that's worth.
Excellent pyramid, but is buying great coins a form of self-actualization?
Regrettably, yes.......