I like Ian but the site drives me insane and I will heed your advise
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@roadrunner said:
I don't get all this "stretching for juice" and "passing the Grey Poupon." You either pay what the coin is worth to you or you don't.
You need to be prepared to pay more to beat the occasional uninformed buyer as mentioned by Bill Jones and yourself per the below. If there is an uniformed buyer as mentioned by Bill and yourself, the buyer has to pay more to win to accommodate this. Is it clearer now?
@roadrunner said:
Buyer's fees are mostly irrelevant and mainly for show only hoping to capture the occasional uninformed seller and/or buyer.
Somewhere on the GC site you can register for the email update that highlights the "better" lots that are selling each week.
Something may catch your eye without having to go checking each week to see whats listed.
@Justacommeman said:
Man am I having a bad night. I need another dinner with you to snap out of this malaise
>
Perhaps, with coaching (there is now an abacus app), you can calculate the tip on a buffalo steak in Denver, at which time further complexities can be ignored
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
You need to be prepared to pay more to beat the occasional uninformed buyer as mentioned by Bill Jones and yourself per the below. If there is an uniformed buyer as mentioned by Bill and yourself, the buyer has to pay more to win to accommodate this. Is it clearer now?
Actually, in choice and gem better date seated material, I don't think I've ever come across one of those clueless bidders paying an extra Buyer's Fee. Nearly all of the competition has been from strong, long time collectors with deep pockets, dealer retailers, or the sharp wholesale dealers buying on spec. No room for those who don't know about BF's. Even if such a rube showed up, they'd win the lot. I certainly wouldn't fork over another 5% ....let alone 17.5-20% to try and beat them out. The lot(s) would be all theirs. They could buy the entire auction if they wished. I'd even congratulate them.
The GC site is fairly easy to use. And you can easily reduce the number of coins to view by adding key words, specific grades, etc. I often prefer to just look at seated coins so I will type in "seated" and see the 100-150 seated lots coming up in the next 2 sales. Sometimes I only look for old holders in the next 2 sales so I use "oh" or "ogh." On dollars I prefer toned ones so "toned" works well.
You need to be prepared to pay more to beat the occasional uninformed buyer as mentioned by Bill Jones and yourself per the below. If there is an uniformed buyer as mentioned by Bill and yourself, the buyer has to pay more to win to accommodate this. Is it clearer now?
Actually, in choice and gem better date seated material, I don't think I've ever come across one of those clueless bidders paying an extra Buyer's Fee. Nearly all of the competition has been from strong, long time collectors with deep pockets, dealer retailers, or the sharp wholesale dealers buying on spec. No room for those who don't know about BF's. Even if such a rube showed up, they'd win the lot. I certainly wouldn't fork over another 5% ....let alone 17.5-20% to try and beat them out. The lot(s) would be all theirs. They could buy the entire auction if they wished. I'd even congratulate them.
Bill indicated he's run into many people that bid this way for the materials he bids on.
Since many think it doesn't matter whether the buyer needs to do math or not to bid, why not eliminate the math to accommodate the people that do think it matters?
@Justacommeman said:
That Pan PAC went cheap IMO. I'm looking for one and didn't even see it
mark
Those prices don't look so cheap to me. The Gray Sheet bid is $92,000. Those coins sold for well over that. I paid less than that those numbers for the the PCGS MS-64,CAC, from a bourse dealer, that is in my collection.
Here's how capitalism works. When one provider over charges for their services, others come in and undercut the price. If their service is as good, they take business from those whose prices are out of line.
They have made improvements, but the Stacks website is still second rate. Stacks' is charging Cadillac prices for Chevy quality service.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@roadrunner said:
I don't get all this "stretching for juice" and "passing the Grey Poupon." You either pay what the coin is worth to you or you don't. It has nothing to do with fees and commissions. You either pay what it takes to win the lot, which you must be ok with, or you don't. I never had a problem winning some of the lots I went after in major auctions. I realized I would be bidding against Legend, Jessup, crack out artists, up-graders, coin doctors, and top collectors as well. You don't win them all. The very few times I stood with my hand up like the statue of Liberty to win the lot, I usually got my butt kicked. And each time I was "uncomfortable" having to stretch and stretch. There weren't even buyer's fees in existence yet on some of those early stretches....lol.
Not all auction houses don't "skim 20% off the top" for consignments of $20K or more....and not the 2 major ones that I have dealt with. Since I first started doing $20K consignments back in 1988 (the min. that B&M would generally accept at that time for a decent rate) I've never once netted out less than 87-88%. In more recent times it was 90-92%. If your consignment is well under $20K it probably doesn't need major auction exposure and can be sold a number of other ways and still net 83-87%. Or as mentioned before, piggy-back it to a major wholesaler who routinely puts $50K-$100K in most major auctions. I shake my head in disbelief when I see common date MS64-MS66 Saints going to auction when the wholesale margins on those coins tend to be 5% or so. I fully expect to net 88-92% of my next venture into a major auction consignment. Undoubtedly, GC loves this kind of thread. "Don't sell your coins to big auction house X who takes 20-30% off the top....consign with us as we only take 10%."
If you are getting wonderful results from from the big auction houses, great! My experience has been different.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Maybe Heritage will hold the line at 17.5% for the buyers' fee, but I doubt that they will. If they increase it, I hope that the smaller houses start eating their lunch. I am sick of this monopoly style behavior.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Yeah right. Next move up is 22.5% then the move to 25% fees. THEN you'll see the Auction companies discontinue the expen$ive print catalogs. Fewer and fewer consignments will come, more "modern" approaches to marketing appear then One by One these Greedy Auction Houses will fade away. You can only wring so much $ out of your "customers" before they simply shut down. Then when the boys at ****** lose their jobs they'll find out their $6000 Anderson Sheppard Suits only bring $300 on resale.
Certainly not the end, but putting some market pressure on them would be good.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
I feel that this point has been argued by the OP dozens of times. From the buyers side of things there is only negligible difference between a 0% buyers fee that david lawrence uses, a 10% like great collections and 20% like stacks plans to use.
Dealer or collector- no matter. If you want a coin very badly that is worth to you $100,000 and you are even willing to spend up to 20% over market to buy it- you will bid $120,000 at davidlawrence, $109,000 at Great collections and $100,000 at stacks.
Ultimately when the bill comes in the mail, dealer or collector will still be paying $120,000 all in. NO ONE has an advantage other than the person willing to spend more money.
This definitely is not the case for the seller. However the buyers are all on the same footing.
It reminds me of old school Ford dealership parts counter pricing where every idiot who comes through the door pays a different prices for the same item. If you were a dink you might pay retail +20% but if you put on your kneepads and crawled under the parts guys desk you might get jobber-20%
Between jobber-20% and retail plus +20% there were enough different price levels that they even had a chart on the wall with each level represented by a letter of the alphabet I think it went up to at least the letter S.
There was plenty of incentive to go along with the system though because for a customers estimate you could get a hardcopy quote at any level above your payout . Say the customer was a PITA you could get a retail +20% quote to show them , then put the item on account and pay for it a month later at a much lower price.
On something like a rebuilt engine you could be talking hundreds of dollars in pocket for doing nothing. They would even put retail and wholesale on a quote so you could impress the customer with what a deal they were getting. The guys that got the best prices all had to jump through plenty of hoops , there was too much BS for me to ever want to get more than halfway down the price ladder.
There's an appeal to it I think because people like to pretend they are smarter than the next guy even though they are probably paying more than everyone else.
@ambro51 said:
Yeah right. Next move up is 22.5% then the move to 25% fees.
Some items at HA are 25% already and some auction houses are even more at 27.5%. It's just a matter of time for the main venues. Buy now
That's the ticket !!!
25% is Da Bomb.
Now that it's been established that Joe SixPack gets hammer plus something negotiable, a 25% hammer premium is an easy computation.
Buyers fee is a term of "merchandising art" intended to suck in consignors. Nothing else.
The term will some day be recognized as one of the Greatest Numismatic Scams of All Time.
In the meanwhile, vigorish.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
@ambro51 said:
Yeah right. Next move up is 22.5% then the move to 25% fees.
Some items at HA are 25% already and some auction houses are even more at 27.5%. It's just a matter of time for the main venues. Buy now
That's the ticket !!!
25% is Da Bomb.
Now that it's been established that Joe SixPack gets hammer plus something negotiable, a 25% hammer premium is an easy computation.
Buyers fee is a term of "merchandising art" intended to suck in consignors. Nothing else.
The term will some day be recognized as one of the Greatest Numismatic Scams of All Time.
In the meanwhile, vigorish.
so they suck in consignors by allowing them to think they are smarter than the next guy with a hammer premium , that part makes sense. Once you are on that treadmill can you count on a consistent rate going forward ? It that a given? Or do you have to "remind" them every time you consign that you are Mr. +18 % not Mr +9% , then when the buyer's fee goes up does the old deal carry forward putting you down 2.5% or does everyone then scramble renegotiate their own little "special" deal?
It also seems to me that while its easy to back out the premium each under bidder who doesn't remember to or maybe had a few too many drinks , might be good for one extra bid increment on lots they bid at even if they don't win .
Since many think it doesn't matter whether the buyer needs to do math or not to bid, why not eliminate the math to accommodate the people that do think it matters?
Because the auction houses have the proof that "some" buyers and "many" consignors cannot do the math. Therefore, they would be most resistant to give this extra TUITION back. We all love TUITION don't we? It's a staple in the coin business. I'm sure a significant % of consignors to major auction houses are doing it one time only (estates and heirs, selling the old collection, moving on, etc.). That TUITION tends to be the steepest. Try to find any reference on the internet (other than the CUForum) where ANYONE says Buyer's Fees ultimately come out of the seller's pocket. I did several hours of searching once and found it running 20-1 in favor of the buyers.
I'd forgot about that one. Great coin for the ages too. And they netted out at 80.85% ($418K) on a single lot consignment worth $517,000. That was hook, line, sinker....and rod and reel. Apparently, only the auction house had a clue as to what it would/should bring. Whoever was working for the consignor....wasn't working. 5% seller's fee and they netted 81%. Where's the missing 14%? A 5th grader can see that math is bogus.
@joebb21 said:
I feel that this point has been argued by the OP dozens of times. From the buyers side of things there is only negligible difference between a 0% buyers fee that david lawrence uses, a 10% like great collections and 20% like stacks plans to use.
Dealer or collector- no matter. If you want a coin very badly that is worth to you $100,000 and you are even willing to spend up to 20% over market to buy it- you will bid $120,000 at davidlawrence, $109,000 at Great collections and $100,000 at stacks.
Ultimately when the bill comes in the mail, dealer or collector will still be paying $120,000 all in. NO ONE has an advantage other than the person willing to spend more money.
This definitely is not the case for the seller. However the buyers are all on the same footing.
Yep.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@Justacommeman said:
That Pan PAC went cheap IMO. I'm looking for one and didn't even see it
mark
Those prices don't look so cheap to me. The Gray Sheet bid is $92,000. Those coins sold for well over that. I paid less than that those numbers for the the PCGS MS-64,CAC, from a bourse dealer, that is in my collection.
Here's how capitalism works. When one provider over charges for their services, others come in and undercut the price. If their service is as good, they take business from those whose prices are out of line.
They have made improvements, but the Stacks website is still second rate. Stacks' is charging Cadillac prices for Chevy quality service.
Cheap for CAC PCGS piece IMO. You bought your medal awhile ago. These have worked there way up price wise.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@ambro51 said:
Yeah right. Next move up is 22.5% then the move to 25% fees.
Some items at HA are 25% already and some auction houses are even more at 27.5%. It's just a matter of time for the main venues. Buy now
That's the ticket !!!
25% is Da Bomb.
Now that it's been established that Joe SixPack gets hammer plus something negotiable, a 25% hammer premium is an easy computation.
Buyers fee is a term of "merchandising art" intended to suck in consignors. Nothing else.
The term will some day be recognized as one of the Greatest Numismatic Scams of All Time.
In the meanwhile, vigorish.
^^^^^^
this.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@JJSingleton said:
That sound you hear is the sucking of millions and millions of dollars out of the coin market. Between auction houses, the US Mint, and TPGs there is no wonder why the overall market has been in a funk for years.
Now that's a good point worth thinking about, all the money flowing to salaries and profits for those in "the industry" of coin production, packaging, appraising, auctioning, dealing, and delivery is Not money spent by collectors on the coins themselves, but instead paid to "the system" that gets the coins into and out of their (the collectors') hands whether they're buying or selling them, They get you both ways, and most of that money leaves coins and pays the coin business people's personal expenses.
If a dealer is going to the ends of the earth (sometimes literally) to get a coin I need for my collection, you can be d**m sure I'm going to pay him for his trouble. And then some.
He's gotta eat too. And if he enjoys himself at a good meal to make up for sitting on a plane for X hours, or in an auction room for Y hours, good for him.
I keep my dealers happy, they keep me happy. Symbiotic relationship.
@JJSingleton said:
That sound you hear is the sucking of millions and millions of dollars out of the coin market. Between auction houses, the US Mint, and TPGs there is no wonder why the overall market has been in a funk for years.
Now that's a good point worth thinking about, all the money flowing to salaries and profits for those in "the industry" of coin production, packaging, appraising, auctioning, dealing, and delivery is Not money spent by collectors on the coins themselves, but instead paid to "the system" that gets the coins into and out of their (the collectors') hands whether they're buying or selling them, They get you both ways, and most of that money leaves coins and pays the coin business people's personal expenses.
If a dealer is going to the ends of the earth (sometimes literally) to get a coin I need for my collection, you can be d**m sure I'm going to pay him for his trouble. And then some.
He's gotta eat too. And if he enjoys himself at a good meal to make up for sitting on a plane for X hours, or in an auction room for Y hours, good for him.
I keep my dealers happy, they keep me happy. Symbiotic relationship.
Well said
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
For those that don't understand what the Colonel has said, you ought to read the book "Who Moved my Cheese?" by Spencer Johnson. A classic book about how to deal with change in both your life and at work.
I read it over a decade ago. It worth far more than the ten buck purchase price and has helped me through some potentially difficult stages in my career.
An aside to the Colonel - thanks for injecting this into the conversation.
FWIW -- hate the book. The author just died 3 days ago, coincidentally.
Below, an amusing Amazon review:
I enjoyed reading this book, but it really isn't very good.
I'll save you a lot of time by summarizing the book:
Cheese is anything that makes you happy, and if you want to keep getting your "cheese," then you'll have to be able to adapt to change. AND, this is a good lesson to learn. AND, four people are sitting around saying that this is a good lesson to learn. AND, this lesson applies to each of their four lives. AND, this lesson can apply to your life. AND, this lesson can apply to your life in more ways than one. AND, you should buy copies of this book for all of your friends. AND, you should attend our seminars. AND, you should read our other books. AND, you should go to our other seminars. AND, change is good--did we mention that? AND, you should tell others about this message.
That's right--this book is more about self promotion than it is about change. It's a quick read, but it isn't very good.
Here's a test of how good a book is that generally works with amazon. It's kind of a math test, but it works.
W = weight in lbs.
UP = Lowest used price
AP = Amazon price
(AP / UP) - (W - 2)
Score:
0 - 1 : Very good book
1 - 5 : Mediocre book
5 + : People want to get rid of this book as fast as they can.
Right now, Who Moved My Cheese gets a score of 6.7. This means that you should only buy it used or read it at the library.
The one time I sold a coin through a Heritage auction, I got 100% of hammer price, thanks to the kind folks at RCONH arranging it for me (they didn't want to buy it for inventory, but recommended an upcoming Heritage sale.) I was perfectly pleased, but don't know if my experience was atypical.
The theme of "Who Moved My Cheese" is not "Change is good". The theme is "Change Is. And is messy. Want good for yourself? Suck it up and deal...... ".
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
I've never had a dealer go to the "ends of the earth" to locate a coin for me. Most of the rare coins I was looking for would eventually make their way to major auction or a major show bourse. Typically, those dealers are attending a coin show or auction and they look for coins while they are there....often times they are looking for multiple people at the same time. They'd be there any ways with or without me.
When a collector employs the services of a major dealer, or any dealer for that matter, to represent them and bid for them at an auction, then can the representative dealer share in the Buyer's Premium. In the real estate business this is nothing more than a professional courtesy. On large transaction items, is the BP not negotiable? On TDN's purchase of the 1894 SP66 did the auction house really collect about $!.8 million +/- on the transaction.........or did the dealer representative receive a % of that BP?
Since many think it doesn't matter whether the buyer needs to do math or not to bid, why not eliminate the math to accommodate the people that do think it matters?
Because the auction houses have the proof that "some" buyers and "many" consignors cannot do the math. Therefore, they would be most resistant to give this extra TUITION back. We all love TUITION don't we? It's a staple in the coin business. I'm sure a significant % of consignors to major auction houses are doing it one time only (estates and heirs, selling the old collection, moving on, etc.). That TUITION tends to be the steepest. Try to find any reference on the internet (other than the CUForum) where ANYONE says Buyer's Fees ultimately come out of the seller's pocket. I did several hours of searching once and found it running 20-1 in favor of the buyers.
Seems we can agree the existence of the buyer's premium helps the house make additional money from buyers and consigners. Auction houses are businesses so they have an incentive to make money. The BP is just one of those ways.
The sad thing about tuition being steepest for estate sales is that is when consigners are grieving. Best to have some plan for your collection so a big chunk of it doesn't go to tuition.
On TDN's 1794 SP66 FH$ the house and consignor got whatever deal they negotiated. Since Cardinal and Co. were quite savvy market players, I would think the net overall commission to the auction house was 5% or less (ie $500K or less). No one paid the "original" 17.5% buyer's fee when the 1794 SP66 was last auctioned as the consignor would have negotiated ALL fees down to 5% or less. Though considering Legend jumped the bid without competition from $8 MILL to $10 MILL, we can debate that an effective 2nd buyer's fee of approx 17-20% was tossed in there....95% of that jump going to the consignor.
The buyer’s fee often does is take air out of the amount of money I have in my check book. The 20% buyers fee reduces my $10,000 to $8,333.33, which gets rounded up to $8,500. It also reduces the amount the collector gets when he or she sells a coin at auction.
I agree that it is a problem for consignors. I still don't understand what difference it makes to a buyer except perhaps for a trivial difference if the auction house rounds up the bid. Perhaps the real argument here is that the bidding increments are too large at that level.
@roadrunner said:
On TDN's 1794 SP66 FH$ the house and consignor got whatever deal they negotiated. Since Cardinal and Co. were quite savvy market players, I would think the net overall commission to the auction house was 5% or less (ie $500K or less). No one paid the "original" 17.5% buyer's fee when the 1794 SP66 was last auctioned as the consignor would have negotiated ALL fees down to 5% or less. Though considering Legend jumped the bid without competition from $8 MILL to $10 MILL, we can debate that an effective 2nd buyer's fee of approx 17-20% was tossed in there....95% of that jump going to the consignor.
Sooooo, RR, are you inplying that the Buyer's Premium has never been negotiable to buyers........not consignors. Concession of 17.5% to an auction house cannot be negotiated?, in any circumstance, or ever, seems inconceivable. Buyer's agents should not be an add on cost to the buyer.
As far as I know know the same buyers fee applies to everybody
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
The buyer’s fee often does is take air out of the amount of money I have in my check book. The 20% buyers fee reduces my $10,000 to $8,333.33, which gets rounded up to $8,500. It also reduces the amount the collector gets when he or she sells a coin at auction.
I agree that it is a problem for consignors. I still don't understand what difference it makes to a buyer except perhaps for a trivial difference if the auction house rounds up the bid. Perhaps the real argument here is that the bidding increments are too large at that level.
The REAL issue here is that a certain class of buyer DO negotiate down the BP. They are the BIG players and this gives them a significant advantage over thoise buyers that have to pay the 17.5+% This tilts the table toward large playersby a significant %. Do you think that Lipton Rare Coins may get a % of the BP when he buys for a collector?
@bronco2078 said:
The seller should pay to sell . Other than name recognition that's bringing items in and gathering them in one convenient venue what auction houses do a monkey could do .
They do.
MLAeBayNumismatics: "The greatest hobby in the world!"
@tradedollarnut said:
The buyers premium is never negotiable
The point is can it be shared between the auction house and the buyer's representative?
Not that I know of ...
OINK is right. Scotsman offers 105% of hammer if you previously purchased your consignment through them. That 5% comes from the "buyer's" fee. I was never charged a seller's fee if I recall correctly.
@tradedollarnut said:
The buyers premium is never negotiable
The point is can it be shared between the auction house and the buyer's representative?
Not that I know of ...
In the United States.
In Germany, for example, the house does give dealer buyers a lower fee, and that is often how those dealers are paid for representing clients.
If that system becomes the policy here, the time will have come to get hell out of this hobby. I love coins, but I have what the auction houses and CAC are doing to it. The people who are running the markets are soon going to have a lot fewer customers.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Sooooo, RR, are you inplying that the Buyer's Premium has never been negotiable to buyers........not consignors. Concession of 17.5% to an auction house cannot be negotiated?, in any circumstance, or ever, seems inconceivable. Buyer's agents should not be an add on cost to the buyer.
>
Buyers have essentially never been able to negotiate a "buyer's fee" because there's no need to....it's just reverse arithmetic. The BF has always belonged to the consignor who negotiates their net auction fee....of which the 17.5% bidder's fee is part of that. Buyer's agents typically charge the prospective buyer 2-10% depending on what they are bidding on. It would be so much clearer to all if the buyer's fee were renamed to seller's fee #2.
@tradedollarnut said:
The buyers premium is never negotiable
The point is can it be shared between the auction house and the buyer's representative?
Not that I know of ...
In the United States.
In Germany, for example, the house does give dealer buyers a lower fee, and that is often how those dealers are paid for representing clients.
If that system becomes the policy here, the time will have come to get hell out of this hobby. I love coins, but I have what the auction houses and CAC are doing to it. The people who are running the markets are soon going to have a lot fewer customers.
If I had a nickel for every time Bill threatened to leave the hobby....
Comments
I like Ian but the site drives me insane and I will heed your advise
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
You need to be prepared to pay more to beat the occasional uninformed buyer as mentioned by Bill Jones and yourself per the below. If there is an uniformed buyer as mentioned by Bill and yourself, the buyer has to pay more to win to accommodate this. Is it clearer now?
Somewhere on the GC site you can register for the email update that highlights the "better" lots that are selling each week.
Something may catch your eye without having to go checking each week to see whats listed.
>
Perhaps, with coaching (there is now an abacus app), you can calculate the tip on a buffalo steak in Denver, at which time further complexities can be ignored
What 10% fee? The buyer paid all those fees per the terms and conditions. Seller only had to pony up a $10 listing fee.
I wonder if the auction houses share the buyer's fee with dealers that bid on their auctons? Anyone here care to divulge?
Actually, in choice and gem better date seated material, I don't think I've ever come across one of those clueless bidders paying an extra Buyer's Fee. Nearly all of the competition has been from strong, long time collectors with deep pockets, dealer retailers, or the sharp wholesale dealers buying on spec. No room for those who don't know about BF's. Even if such a rube showed up, they'd win the lot. I certainly wouldn't fork over another 5% ....let alone 17.5-20% to try and beat them out. The lot(s) would be all theirs. They could buy the entire auction if they wished. I'd even congratulate them.
The GC site is fairly easy to use. And you can easily reduce the number of coins to view by adding key words, specific grades, etc. I often prefer to just look at seated coins so I will type in "seated" and see the 100-150 seated lots coming up in the next 2 sales. Sometimes I only look for old holders in the next 2 sales so I use "oh" or "ogh." On dollars I prefer toned ones so "toned" works well.
Bill indicated he's run into many people that bid this way for the materials he bids on.
Since many think it doesn't matter whether the buyer needs to do math or not to bid, why not eliminate the math to accommodate the people that do think it matters?
Those prices don't look so cheap to me. The Gray Sheet bid is $92,000. Those coins sold for well over that. I paid less than that those numbers for the the PCGS MS-64,CAC, from a bourse dealer, that is in my collection.
Here's how capitalism works. When one provider over charges for their services, others come in and undercut the price. If their service is as good, they take business from those whose prices are out of line.
They have made improvements, but the Stacks website is still second rate. Stacks' is charging Cadillac prices for Chevy quality service.
If you are getting wonderful results from from the big auction houses, great! My experience has been different.
Maybe Heritage will hold the line at 17.5% for the buyers' fee, but I doubt that they will. If they increase it, I hope that the smaller houses start eating their lunch. I am sick of this monopoly style behavior.
Yeah right. Next move up is 22.5% then the move to 25% fees. THEN you'll see the Auction companies discontinue the expen$ive print catalogs. Fewer and fewer consignments will come, more "modern" approaches to marketing appear then One by One these Greedy Auction Houses will fade away. You can only wring so much $ out of your "customers" before they simply shut down. Then when the boys at ****** lose their jobs they'll find out their $6000 Anderson Sheppard Suits only bring $300 on resale.
Latin American Collection
Certainly not the end, but putting some market pressure on them would be good.
Who are we hyping today ?
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
I feel that this point has been argued by the OP dozens of times. From the buyers side of things there is only negligible difference between a 0% buyers fee that david lawrence uses, a 10% like great collections and 20% like stacks plans to use.
Dealer or collector- no matter. If you want a coin very badly that is worth to you $100,000 and you are even willing to spend up to 20% over market to buy it- you will bid $120,000 at davidlawrence, $109,000 at Great collections and $100,000 at stacks.
Ultimately when the bill comes in the mail, dealer or collector will still be paying $120,000 all in. NO ONE has an advantage other than the person willing to spend more money.
This definitely is not the case for the seller. However the buyers are all on the same footing.
It reminds me of old school Ford dealership parts counter pricing where every idiot who comes through the door pays a different prices for the same item. If you were a dink you might pay retail +20% but if you put on your kneepads and crawled under the parts guys desk you might get jobber-20%
Between jobber-20% and retail plus +20% there were enough different price levels that they even had a chart on the wall with each level represented by a letter of the alphabet I think it went up to at least the letter S.
There was plenty of incentive to go along with the system though because for a customers estimate you could get a hardcopy quote at any level above your payout . Say the customer was a PITA you could get a retail +20% quote to show them , then put the item on account and pay for it a month later at a much lower price.
On something like a rebuilt engine you could be talking hundreds of dollars in pocket for doing nothing. They would even put retail and wholesale on a quote so you could impress the customer with what a deal they were getting. The guys that got the best prices all had to jump through plenty of hoops , there was too much BS for me to ever want to get more than halfway down the price ladder.
There's an appeal to it I think because people like to pretend they are smarter than the next guy even though they are probably paying more than everyone else.
Some items at HA are 25% already and some auction houses are even more at 27.5%. It's just a matter of time for the main venues. Buy now
That's the ticket !!!
25% is Da Bomb.
Now that it's been established that Joe SixPack gets hammer plus something negotiable, a 25% hammer premium is an easy computation.
Buyers fee is a term of "merchandising art" intended to suck in consignors. Nothing else.
The term will some day be recognized as one of the Greatest Numismatic Scams of All Time.
In the meanwhile, vigorish.
so they suck in consignors by allowing them to think they are smarter than the next guy with a hammer premium , that part makes sense. Once you are on that treadmill can you count on a consistent rate going forward ? It that a given? Or do you have to "remind" them every time you consign that you are Mr. +18 %
not Mr +9% , then when the buyer's fee goes up does the old deal carry forward putting you down 2.5% or does everyone then scramble renegotiate their own little "special" deal?
Because the auction houses have the proof that "some" buyers and "many" consignors cannot do the math. Therefore, they would be most resistant to give this extra TUITION back. We all love TUITION don't we? It's a staple in the coin business. I'm sure a significant % of consignors to major auction houses are doing it one time only (estates and heirs, selling the old collection, moving on, etc.). That TUITION tends to be the steepest. Try to find any reference on the internet (other than the CUForum) where ANYONE says Buyer's Fees ultimately come out of the seller's pocket. I did several hours of searching once and found it running 20-1 in favor of the buyers.
One needs look no further than the recent proof $20 Liberty sold at Heritage for a charity.
5% sellers fee on a half million dollar coin. That took chutzpah
http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/post-tribune/news/ct-ptb-church-rare-coin-auction-st-0429-20170428-story.html
I'd forgot about that one. Great coin for the ages too. And they netted out at 80.85% ($418K) on a single lot consignment worth $517,000. That was hook, line, sinker....and rod and reel. Apparently, only the auction house had a clue as to what it would/should bring. Whoever was working for the consignor....wasn't working. 5% seller's fee and they netted 81%. Where's the missing 14%? A 5th grader can see that math is bogus.
Yep.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Cheap for CAC PCGS piece IMO. You bought your medal awhile ago. These have worked there way up price wise.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
^^^^^^
this.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
If a dealer is going to the ends of the earth (sometimes literally) to get a coin I need for my collection, you can be d**m sure I'm going to pay him for his trouble. And then some.
He's gotta eat too. And if he enjoys himself at a good meal to make up for sitting on a plane for X hours, or in an auction room for Y hours, good for him.
I keep my dealers happy, they keep me happy. Symbiotic relationship.
Well said
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
FWIW -- hate the book. The author just died 3 days ago, coincidentally.
Below, an amusing Amazon review:
I enjoyed reading this book, but it really isn't very good.
I'll save you a lot of time by summarizing the book:
Cheese is anything that makes you happy, and if you want to keep getting your "cheese," then you'll have to be able to adapt to change. AND, this is a good lesson to learn. AND, four people are sitting around saying that this is a good lesson to learn. AND, this lesson applies to each of their four lives. AND, this lesson can apply to your life. AND, this lesson can apply to your life in more ways than one. AND, you should buy copies of this book for all of your friends. AND, you should attend our seminars. AND, you should read our other books. AND, you should go to our other seminars. AND, change is good--did we mention that? AND, you should tell others about this message.
That's right--this book is more about self promotion than it is about change. It's a quick read, but it isn't very good.
Here's a test of how good a book is that generally works with amazon. It's kind of a math test, but it works.
W = weight in lbs.
UP = Lowest used price
AP = Amazon price
(AP / UP) - (W - 2)
Score:
0 - 1 : Very good book
1 - 5 : Mediocre book
5 + : People want to get rid of this book as fast as they can.
Right now, Who Moved My Cheese gets a score of 6.7. This means that you should only buy it used or read it at the library.
The one time I sold a coin through a Heritage auction, I got 100% of hammer price, thanks to the kind folks at RCONH arranging it for me (they didn't want to buy it for inventory, but recommended an upcoming Heritage sale.) I was perfectly pleased, but don't know if my experience was atypical.
The theme of "Who Moved My Cheese" is not "Change is good". The theme is "Change Is. And is messy. Want good for yourself? Suck it up and deal...... ".
I've never had a dealer go to the "ends of the earth" to locate a coin for me. Most of the rare coins I was looking for would eventually make their way to major auction or a major show bourse. Typically, those dealers are attending a coin show or auction and they look for coins while they are there....often times they are looking for multiple people at the same time. They'd be there any ways with or without me.
When a collector employs the services of a major dealer, or any dealer for that matter, to represent them and bid for them at an auction, then can the representative dealer share in the Buyer's Premium. In the real estate business this is nothing more than a professional courtesy. On large transaction items, is the BP not negotiable? On TDN's purchase of the 1894 SP66 did the auction house really collect about $!.8 million +/- on the transaction.........or did the dealer representative receive a % of that BP?
Seems we can agree the existence of the buyer's premium helps the house make additional money from buyers and consigners. Auction houses are businesses so they have an incentive to make money. The BP is just one of those ways.
The sad thing about tuition being steepest for estate sales is that is when consigners are grieving. Best to have some plan for your collection so a big chunk of it doesn't go to tuition.
On TDN's 1794 SP66 FH$ the house and consignor got whatever deal they negotiated. Since Cardinal and Co. were quite savvy market players, I would think the net overall commission to the auction house was 5% or less (ie $500K or less). No one paid the "original" 17.5% buyer's fee when the 1794 SP66 was last auctioned as the consignor would have negotiated ALL fees down to 5% or less. Though considering Legend jumped the bid without competition from $8 MILL to $10 MILL, we can debate that an effective 2nd buyer's fee of approx 17-20% was tossed in there....95% of that jump going to the consignor.
I agree that it is a problem for consignors. I still don't understand what difference it makes to a buyer except perhaps for a trivial difference if the auction house rounds up the bid. Perhaps the real argument here is that the bidding increments are too large at that level.
Sooooo, RR, are you inplying that the Buyer's Premium has never been negotiable to buyers........not consignors. Concession of 17.5% to an auction house cannot be negotiated?, in any circumstance, or ever, seems inconceivable. Buyer's agents should not be an add on cost to the buyer.
As far as I know know the same buyers fee applies to everybody
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
The REAL issue here is that a certain class of buyer DO negotiate down the BP. They are the BIG players and this gives them a significant advantage over thoise buyers that have to pay the 17.5+% This tilts the table toward large playersby a significant %. Do you think that Lipton Rare Coins may get a % of the BP when he buys for a collector?
The buyers premium is never negotiable
The point is can it be shared between the auction house and the buyer's representative?
Not that I know of ...
Do you think if Legend was owned by Walmart (edited: or Amazon) that might change????
In the United States.
In Germany, for example, the house does give dealer buyers a lower fee, and that is often how those dealers are paid for representing clients.
They do.
OINK is right. Scotsman offers 105% of hammer if you previously purchased your consignment through them. That 5% comes from the "buyer's" fee. I was never charged a seller's fee if I recall correctly.
If that system becomes the policy here, the time will have come to get hell out of this hobby. I love coins, but I have what the auction houses and CAC are doing to it. The people who are running the markets are soon going to have a lot fewer customers.
>
Buyers have essentially never been able to negotiate a "buyer's fee" because there's no need to....it's just reverse arithmetic. The BF has always belonged to the consignor who negotiates their net auction fee....of which the 17.5% bidder's fee is part of that. Buyer's agents typically charge the prospective buyer 2-10% depending on what they are bidding on. It would be so much clearer to all if the buyer's fee were renamed to seller's fee #2.
If I had a nickel for every time Bill threatened to leave the hobby....