There is a difference between darkly colored (brown, orange) gold and actual "dirty" gold. Recently, I got to read a column about dirty gold that will be published sometime/someplace before August. The author reveals a "new" form of surface alteration seen on both gold and silver. Apparently, this "trick" has been around for several years - starting with $5 Indians. The photos in the article showed tiny clumps of sticky black dirt on the coins to hide wear and simulate originality. What will they think of next?
@Insider2 said:
There is a difference between darkly colored (brown, orange) gold and actual "dirty" gold. Recently, I got to read a column about dirty gold that will be published sometime/someplace before August. The author reveals a "new" form of surface alteration seen on both gold and silver. Apparently, this "trick" has been around for several years - starting with $5 Indians. The photos in the article showed tiny clumps of sticky black dirt on the coins to hide wear and simulate originality. What will they think of next?
interesting. i would like to see some examples of those.
That's normal genuine dirt or residue. If someone has a raw gold coin (OR SLAB) with dirt on the highest parts of the relief and rim, a seated dollar, with dirt on the rim and thigh, or a rare date Morgan with black dirt on the hair above the ear I'll be able to recognize what I saw in the article.
@Insider2 said:
That's normal genuine dirt or residue. If someone has a raw gold coin (OR SLAB) with dirt on the highest parts of the relief and rim, a seated dollar, with dirt on the rim and thigh, or a rare date Morgan with black dirt on the hair above the ear I'll be able to recognize what I saw in the article.
that makes sense to me. i was just saying that i would like to see an example for comparison. i am sure it would be fairly easy to spot because it would look different, as you describe.
There are lots of coins like this out there. Apparently the dam broke one or two years ago! I shall try to find one to post but I won't buy them. I'll guarantee members reading this have an one example or a half dozen!
Read what I posted. I described what they look like.
I cannot post an image of something I don't have.
For now, put what I wrote in the trash, we'll just need to wait and see the article unless a member here posts an example.
Just thinking, after being informed of these alterations in good faith, I don't think it would be "right" to post an image if I had one.
I'm sure one or more examples will get posted here sooner or later. They are very obvious and I've been told that so far only a few dealers are sending them in to be graded.
@Insider2 said:
1. Read what I posted. I described what they look like.
2. I cannot post an image of something I don't have.
3. For now, put what I wrote in the trash, we'll just need to wait and see the article unless a member here posts an example.
4. Just thinking, after being informed of these alterations in good faith, I don't think it would be "right" to post an image if I had one.
5. I'm sure one or more examples will get posted here sooner or later. They are very obvious and I've been told that so far only a few dealers are sending them in to be graded.
Sorry I misunderstood what you meant by normal coins. Posted that from in a taxi probably without thinking what you meant by "normal".
Every coin posted so far is natural. The Bechtler even has "sand colored" residue in the recesses of the letters. Generally the altered coins I was shown have uniform and unnatural color and then they are dirtied up to look like they have just come out of an old collection.
I personally do not like any gold coins with these dark, splotchy colors unless they came out of the ocean!
I'll modify that a little. I like old gold with even, subdued, homogeneous color like the 1846-C above but I remove the detracting crud while leaving a clean and natural coin. Now, no one here should care about what I like and that makes the world go around...LOL.
Thanks for showing the fantastic coins. I collect $20 New Orleans but have few as they are not cheap and finding a good example is getting harder at a fair price. I will never have the 54 O or 56 O as these are expensive and have not performed as well as the last eight years like the second tier coins in the set i.e. 55/59,and 60 O. These coins will always be in demand and short term dips are buying opportunities I/M/O. They should perform well over the years as this type of coin is hard to put down when holding and I like the branch mint material. I had a $20 1858 O that was never dipped and a proof like surface could be seen when rotating the coin. It was also bag mark free with minimal exception.
I am very curious to see if there is a way to remove what the coin accumulated in the way of vault grime and some circulation. It is a AU 53 and would look nice but I still don't like the idea of messing with such a coin as I would have to make sure the coin would not lose any of its original skin.
I like the first coin shown as it is what I want to collect in small number after I finish getting a few more type one DEs and completing an eighteenth century dollar set ex 1794.
Thanks again for taking the time out to show those "dirty" coins but I like them just the way they are. Not saying I will not use a conservation service but the decision is still out. Finding an AU type one DE that has not been bathed is tough as the heavily dipped and/or bag marked coins are what I see shown for the most part and this trend is growing to the extent the are are trading . This excludes the 1851, 52 and 53, which are there for the buying.
The dog coins shown are the golden retriever of coin collecting and I like goldens as well as a nice U.S. branch mint coin. I had a golden retriever that was a dog that every one likes and likes everyone. All I have seen are well mannered/ loves kids and if you walk a small puppy none of the ladies can pass by without petting the "dog". I guess you could say the same about gold coins.
Whatever you decide be careful. Acetone WILL REMOVE any haze "skin" that may be dulling down any hairlines on the coin.
I like to think if you don't touch the coin (as long as nothing on its surface is causing/will cause harm) it will be attractive to more potential buyers. You'll get offers from those who cannot wait to clean it and offers from those who like its originality.
@Insider2 said:
The obverse (not the reverse) of the 84-CC $20 is just GETTING CLOSE. See how the black coloration (dirt) is on all the worn spots and cheek.
Insider, coloration similar to what is seen in this coin is what Doug Winter refers to as the "Euro" look- dark, abraded highlights from improper storage, common to gold coins coming out of Europe. The skin of such coins looks very patinated to me. I would be surprised if that look could be faked.
@Insider2 said:
The obverse (not the reverse) of the 84-CC $20 is just GETTING CLOSE. See how the black coloration (dirt) is on all the worn spots and cheek.
I'll bet if this coin was sent to PCGS or NGC it would grade at least MS-61.
that coin is graded 45 by pcgs. that black coloration on the worn spots and cheek indicates the coin has been in that condition for a LONG time.
the high spots get the wear first. this metal is lighter to start with (in circulation). however, the longer it sits out of circulation (like in a bank vault), it becomes darker. that is totally natural.
$20 libs all have a similar pattern of wear and dirt collection that is natural on circulated coins. once you know the look, it begins to stand out.
@Insider2 said:
The obverse (not the reverse) of the 84-CC $20 is just GETTING CLOSE. See how the black coloration (dirt) is on all the worn spots and cheek.
Insider, coloration similar to what is seen in this coin is what Doug Winter refers to as the "Euro" look- dark, abraded highlights from improper storage, common to gold coins coming out of Europe. The skin of such coins looks very patinated to me. I would be surprised if that look could be faked.
@Insider2 said:
The obverse (not the reverse) of the 84-CC $20 is just GETTING CLOSE. See how the black coloration (dirt) is on all the worn spots and cheek.
I'll bet if this coin was sent to PCGS or NGC it would grade at least MS-61.
that coin is graded 45 by pcgs. that black coloration on the worn spots and cheek indicates the coin has been in that condition for a LONG time.
the high spots get the wear first. this metal is lighter to start with (in circulation). however, the longer it sits out of circulation (like in a bank vault), it becomes darker. that is totally natural.
$20 libs all have a similar pattern of wear and dirt collection that is natural on circulated coins. once you know the look, it begins to stand out.
here are some examples:
I respect all the experts and posters commenting on the "Euro look" gold coins. I don't think I have had the pleasure to meet Mr. Winter (so I will not call him Doug) but I've read some of what he wrote about the desirability and natural look of dirty gold. IMHO it is very funny that these coins were not all over the place decades ago when the guys were traveling to Europe to "rape" all the bankers of their U.S. gold coins. Then like magic - they started to appear in the 1990's.
Furthermore I disagree with what has been written above to describe the dark color on these coins. Friction on the high point of a coin removes its surface. It gets lighter. That is exactly what these coins look like. The color of the circulated area of the gold does not darken to black (I never say never so there may be a dozen provable cases of ED where it happened). The posted coins have a sticky black residue on their wear points that can be removed in seconds either chemically or with additional friction in storage. The fact that this same residue is also found on coins of all types with REPAIRED or ALTERED SURFACES might raise questions to those who examine coins more closely than most. Those dirty bankers in their dirty vaults made sure to stack all those $20's with a layer of dirt between each one in order to compress it fully around the rims and high points of each coin as we see today. Whatever the case, these coins have gained market acceptability.
Disclaimer: I do not alter coins. However, anyone who concentrates on how to add the "Euro Look" to an AU coin as I have should easily discover the method. I will tell you that you'll need an ultra-fine paint brush and the brush is not used to apply... LOL.
Wow...a contentious Dirty Gold thread. Haven't seen too many of these. I certainly look forward to the soon to be released article so I gain a better understanding of this "dirty doctoring" supposedly going on.
steveben, those are some very nice circulated dirty DEs.
Let me get this thread back on track with a couple of thick skinned gold pieces with obverse mint marks.
Joseph J. Singleton - First Superintendent of the U.S. Branch Mint in Dahlonega Georgia
Disclaimer: I do not alter coins. However, anyone who concentrates on how to add the "Euro Look" to an AU coin as I have should easily discover the method. I will tell you that you'll need an ultra-fine paint brush and the brush is not used to apply... LOL.
Furthermore I disagree with what has been written above to describe the dark color on these coins. Friction on the high point of a coin removes its surface. It gets lighter. That is exactly what these coins look like. The color of the circulated area of the gold does not darken to black (I never say never so there may be a dozen provable cases of ED where it happened).
that's not true. haven't you ever carried a pocket piece and then stored it for some time? if you did, you would obverse exactly what i am talking about.
Those dirty bankers in their dirty vaults made sure to stack all those $20's with a layer of dirt between each one in order to compress it fully around the rims and high points of each coin as we see today.
the dirt and wear was already there, before storage.
@JJSingleton I can't give you both a like and agree at the same time.
I just looked up Mr. Winter on the Internet (Let me say that I will never reach the notoriety of Mr. Winter or any of his accomplishments and educational endeavors). Then I spoke with a long-time dealer who was buying gold straight from Europe in 1981 so apparently Heritage was also doing the same thing before Mr. Winter graduated from college and started to work there. I don't expect anything I read or what I post here will change the marketability of these coins one bit.
I look at things this way. If a collector, dealer, TPGS cannot determine that a specific coin is not an original, unaltered, coin in any way, than it must be original! So if the dirt, toning, laser treatment, repair, counterfeit, etc. passes, then the coin is acceptable. This is not debatable as I can think of the green, blue, brown, blocky, artificially toned commemoratives that confirms this fact. Additionally, there are also many cases of counterfeits going back decades that were market acceptable before they were detected. This has been going on before many professional numismatists of today reached that level including esteemed numismatists such as Mr. Winter.
PS I make a distinction between "darkly colored" gold and natural gold with dirt on its surface. One is "toned" the other needs conservation.
PSS Just had another thought. Artistic taste's change with time. What was once in fashion - brilliant silver is now not as desirable as a "beautifully toned" piece. In the same way. Not one dealer on this earth preferred dark gold or dirty gold in the 1970's - 1980's and now it has become the "thing." So there was a reason to artificially tone coins. Perhaps, that may also be true with other, shall we say, desirable characteristics. Food for thought?
LOL! Let's play: "Are you smarter than a fourth grader." That goes for any poster. You tell me how you think it is done in a PM and I'll tell you if you are "smarter than a forth grader!"
I already gave one clue. In order to pass, the coin needs to have black residue on the worn high points and the rims!
Boosibri
Posts: 11,871 ✭✭✭✭✭
Comments
@Boosibri.... very nice... I shall be watching this thread.... Gold is great and dirty gold is cool...
Cheers, RickO
Successful transactions with-Boosibri,lkeigwin,TomB,Broadstruck,coinsarefun,Type2,jom,ProfLiz, UltraHighRelief,Barndog,EXOJUNKIE,ldhair,fivecents,paesan,Crusty...
I just love the obverse mint mark.
Nice coin!
Joseph J. Singleton - First Superintendent of the U.S. Branch Mint in Dahlonega Georgia
Findley Ridge Collection
About Findley Ridge
Cool Bechtler! All are nice.
Ive been wanting to add more to my numis gold holdings. This is so far the only piece I have imaged.
another obverse mint mark coin
Latin American Collection
Nice gold! Wish I had some to show.
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There is a difference between darkly colored (brown, orange) gold and actual "dirty" gold. Recently, I got to read a column about dirty gold that will be published sometime/someplace before August. The author reveals a "new" form of surface alteration seen on both gold and silver. Apparently, this "trick" has been around for several years - starting with $5 Indians. The photos in the article showed tiny clumps of sticky black dirt on the coins to hide wear and simulate originality. What will they think of next?
Love it!
interesting. i would like to see some examples of those.
this one cannot be faked:
(no longer mine, but wish it was)
That's normal genuine dirt or residue. If someone has a raw gold coin (OR SLAB) with dirt on the highest parts of the relief and rim, a seated dollar, with dirt on the rim and thigh, or a rare date Morgan with black dirt on the hair above the ear I'll be able to recognize what I saw in the article.
that makes sense to me. i was just saying that i would like to see an example for comparison. i am sure it would be fairly easy to spot because it would look different, as you describe.
There are lots of coins like this out there. Apparently the dam broke one or two years ago! I shall try to find one to post but I won't buy them. I'll guarantee members reading this have an one example or a half dozen!
it's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide
The 1841 $5 is an under appreciated date
Latin American Collection
You are correct, took me forever to fill that hole.
it's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide
In my experience after the 1842's it is one of the toughest date in the 1840-50's along with the 1849, 50, 58 and 59.
Latin American Collection
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
Here's my dirty old 1858.....
it's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide
Class of 1844
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
All normal coins so far
What would you like to see? Why don't you post something?
Latin American Collection
Here is one of my newer "Carolina" pieces. NGC AU55 CAC
This coin had it all for me - dirty, color, reversed N, rotated reverse, and from Carolina.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
Sorry I misunderstood what you meant by normal coins. Posted that from in a taxi probably without thinking what you meant by "normal".
Latin American Collection
Every coin posted so far is natural. The Bechtler even has "sand colored" residue in the recesses of the letters. Generally the altered coins I was shown have uniform and unnatural color and then they are dirtied up to look like they have just come out of an old collection.
I personally do not like any gold coins with these dark, splotchy colors unless they came out of the ocean!
I'll modify that a little. I like old gold with even, subdued, homogeneous color like the 1846-C above but I remove the detracting crud while leaving a clean and natural coin. Now, no one here should care about what I like and that makes the world go around...LOL.
yeah, that's a nice one.
All DOGS are awesome!!
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947)
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
You've never seen my Poodle. She is definitely NOT awesome. Pathetic describes her better.
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Successful transactions with-Boosibri,lkeigwin,TomB,Broadstruck,coinsarefun,Type2,jom,ProfLiz, UltraHighRelief,Barndog,EXOJUNKIE,ldhair,fivecents,paesan,Crusty...
I see some "old friends" here, for sure.
The obverse (not the reverse) of the 84-CC $20 is just GETTING CLOSE. See how the black coloration (dirt) is on all the worn spots and cheek.
I'll bet if this coin was sent to PCGS or NGC it would grade at least MS-61.
My only $5 gold. 73S in PC35
Latin American Collection
Thanks for showing the fantastic coins. I collect $20 New Orleans but have few as they are not cheap and finding a good example is getting harder at a fair price. I will never have the 54 O or 56 O as these are expensive and have not performed as well as the last eight years like the second tier coins in the set i.e. 55/59,and 60 O. These coins will always be in demand and short term dips are buying opportunities I/M/O. They should perform well over the years as this type of coin is hard to put down when holding and I like the branch mint material. I had a $20 1858 O that was never dipped and a proof like surface could be seen when rotating the coin. It was also bag mark free with minimal exception.
I am very curious to see if there is a way to remove what the coin accumulated in the way of vault grime and some circulation. It is a AU 53 and would look nice but I still don't like the idea of messing with such a coin as I would have to make sure the coin would not lose any of its original skin.
I like the first coin shown as it is what I want to collect in small number after I finish getting a few more type one DEs and completing an eighteenth century dollar set ex 1794.
Thanks again for taking the time out to show those "dirty" coins but I like them just the way they are. Not saying I will not use a conservation service but the decision is still out. Finding an AU type one DE that has not been bathed is tough as the heavily dipped and/or bag marked coins are what I see shown for the most part and this trend is growing to the extent the are are trading . This excludes the 1851, 52 and 53, which are there for the buying.
The dog coins shown are the golden retriever of coin collecting and I like goldens as well as a nice U.S. branch mint coin. I had a golden retriever that was a dog that every one likes and likes everyone. All I have seen are well mannered/ loves kids and if you walk a small puppy none of the ladies can pass by without petting the "dog". I guess you could say the same about gold coins.
@oldgoldlover ....acetone will not affect the coin (it does not affect any metal) and will remove most grime if it is organic in nature. Cheers, RickO
Whatever you decide be careful. Acetone WILL REMOVE any haze "skin" that may be dulling down any hairlines on the coin.
I like to think if you don't touch the coin (as long as nothing on its surface is causing/will cause harm) it will be attractive to more potential buyers. You'll get offers from those who cannot wait to clean it and offers from those who like its originality.
Insider, coloration similar to what is seen in this coin is what Doug Winter refers to as the "Euro" look- dark, abraded highlights from improper storage, common to gold coins coming out of Europe. The skin of such coins looks very patinated to me. I would be surprised if that look could be faked.
We may be describing different looks.
that coin is graded 45 by pcgs. that black coloration on the worn spots and cheek indicates the coin has been in that condition for a LONG time.
the high spots get the wear first. this metal is lighter to start with (in circulation). however, the longer it sits out of circulation (like in a bank vault), it becomes darker. that is totally natural.
$20 libs all have a similar pattern of wear and dirt collection that is natural on circulated coins. once you know the look, it begins to stand out.
here are some examples:
I respect all the experts and posters commenting on the "Euro look" gold coins. I don't think I have had the pleasure to meet Mr. Winter (so I will not call him Doug) but I've read some of what he wrote about the desirability and natural look of dirty gold. IMHO it is very funny that these coins were not all over the place decades ago when the guys were traveling to Europe to "rape" all the bankers of their U.S. gold coins. Then like magic - they started to appear in the 1990's.
Furthermore I disagree with what has been written above to describe the dark color on these coins. Friction on the high point of a coin removes its surface. It gets lighter. That is exactly what these coins look like. The color of the circulated area of the gold does not darken to black (I never say never so there may be a dozen provable cases of ED where it happened). The posted coins have a sticky black residue on their wear points that can be removed in seconds either chemically or with additional friction in storage. The fact that this same residue is also found on coins of all types with REPAIRED or ALTERED SURFACES might raise questions to those who examine coins more closely than most.
Those dirty bankers in their dirty vaults made sure to stack all those $20's with a layer of dirt between each one in order to compress it fully around the rims and high points of each coin as we see today. Whatever the case, these coins have gained market acceptability.
Disclaimer: I do not alter coins. However, anyone who concentrates on how to add the "Euro Look" to an AU coin as I have should easily discover the method. I will tell you that you'll need an ultra-fine paint brush and the brush is not used to apply... LOL.
Wow...a contentious Dirty Gold thread. Haven't seen too many of these. I certainly look forward to the soon to be released article so I gain a better understanding of this "dirty doctoring" supposedly going on.
steveben, those are some very nice circulated dirty DEs.
Let me get this thread back on track with a couple of thick skinned gold pieces with obverse mint marks.
Joseph J. Singleton - First Superintendent of the U.S. Branch Mint in Dahlonega Georgia
Findley Ridge Collection
About Findley Ridge
prove it.
that's not true. haven't you ever carried a pocket piece and then stored it for some time? if you did, you would obverse exactly what i am talking about.
the dirt and wear was already there, before storage.
@JJSingleton fantastic examples.
@Insider2 notice that the darker areas are the areas that have friction/dirt from circulation.
@JJSingleton I can't give you both a like and agree at the same time.
I just looked up Mr. Winter on the Internet (Let me say that I will never reach the notoriety of Mr. Winter or any of his accomplishments and educational endeavors). Then I spoke with a long-time dealer who was buying gold straight from Europe in 1981 so apparently Heritage was also doing the same thing before Mr. Winter graduated from college and started to work there. I don't expect anything I read or what I post here will change the marketability of these coins one bit.
I look at things this way. If a collector, dealer, TPGS cannot determine that a specific coin is not an original, unaltered, coin in any way, than it must be original! So if the dirt, toning, laser treatment, repair, counterfeit, etc. passes, then the coin is acceptable. This is not debatable as I can think of the green, blue, brown, blocky, artificially toned commemoratives that confirms this fact. Additionally, there are also many cases of counterfeits going back decades that were market acceptable before they were detected. This has been going on before many professional numismatists of today reached that level including esteemed numismatists such as Mr. Winter.
PS I make a distinction between "darkly colored" gold and natural gold with dirt on its surface. One is "toned" the other needs conservation.
PSS Just had another thought. Artistic taste's change with time. What was once in fashion - brilliant silver is now not as desirable as a "beautifully toned" piece. In the same way. Not one dealer on this earth preferred dark gold or dirty gold in the 1970's - 1980's and now it has become the "thing." So there was a reason to artificially tone coins. Perhaps, that may also be true with other, shall we say, desirable characteristics. Food for thought?
@steveben said: "Prove it."
LOL! Let's play: "Are you smarter than a fourth grader." That goes for any poster. You tell me how you think it is done in a PM and I'll tell you if you are "smarter than a forth grader!"
I already gave one clue. In order to pass, the coin needs to have black residue on the worn high points and the rims!
Don't make this too hard as the method is not.