The good old days in numismatics, what have we newbies missed?
logger7
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I didn't get into numismatics until the late 1990s. What did I and others late to the hobby miss? 1960S, 1970S, 1980S, 1990s?
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There were no such things as MS67+ grades. In the old days they would have been GEM BU
No sticker or holder game, everything was raw. You bought sight seen only if in the know, using a glass under 100 watt light. I think collectors back then would laugh at all this debate, conversation about the stickers.
I remember buying a 1907 Saint (Arabic numerals) in Gem BU in 1969 for $83. The coin had super luster and I could hardly find a mark on it. I picked it out of a binder of coins in 2x2'x - USGTC from a shop. It would easily be a MS66 if slabbed today. I sold it in 1974 for $260 to finance wife engagement ring. Money from Saint purchase mainly came from summer Grounds Maint job at UH some from some 1969-S PF sets got from mint for $5 sold for $18 at a shop bc market crazy for them. They dropped shortly after that and have never recovered.
I would love to buy a few FRN's and $50 notes off ebay dated 1969 or before close to face, cut them out of any holders put in a wallet and go back in time......to that shop.
Many times I would like to c them ditch the silly numbers and go back to a TPG grading system based on description Unc (60) CH Unc (63) Superb Choice Unc (64 )Gem Unc (65), Superb Gem Unc (66 and better) . For circs G, VG, F, VF, XF, CH XF, AU, CH AU.
I believe eventually a world wide grading system will come into play either similar to the above or 100 point based. The sticker game will be regarded as just another fad like the 1950-D nickel.
You missed the great coin market of 1989, that was fun?
How about bid board in local B&M. When the board is about to close, you have to squeeze your body in before you had any chance to write down your final bid. Didn't we call it "silent auction"
No, run away boom markets that were fueled by speculator money were never fun for collectors. You could get priced out very quickly by those guys and end up wondering if the hobby was over for you. Usually the speculators lost their shirts, and the hobby went back to more or less normal.
IMO way better now because of the internet, so much information available, plus so many cool coins for sale.
Phone calls from your neighborhood B+M dealer saying "C'mon down, I've got something that may interest you."
no ebay scammers, less screwed up grading system.
Fan of the Oxford Comma
CCAC Representative of the General Public
2021 Young Numismatist of the Year
Maybe if you sold off at the peak right before the crash...
More scammers. More screwed up grading system.
On here you missed Bear's epic weekly stories and the Open Forum (which has had it's own site ever since it was booted off.
Walk into your local Marshall Fields and belly-up to the coin counter.
No I meant there were less scammers and screwed up grading system before. Now there are more. I was not clear
Fan of the Oxford Comma
CCAC Representative of the General Public
2021 Young Numismatist of the Year
You missed getting Silver Dollars from the bank to look for dates that you needed and then taking the rest back to the bank!
You missed the Rare Coin Review (house organ of Bowers and Ruddy)---it was always a good read when I was young. Those issues are collectors' items now.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
We had an old big time national dealer in our town, who was very wealthy, and a hard money fanatic. When he was active, he leased all the available bank vault space in a 30+mile radius just for his bags of silver. He sold it during the spikes and when he couldn't physically move the bags anymore. Gives you a perspective on what's out there.
I guess it just depends---I was in Boston in the 80s and my first coin store was New England Rare Coins.
Speaking as a numismatist who turned 6 in 1960 .... overall, you missed the days in which pocket change and bank rolls routinely yielded different series, not just different dates, in all 5 sub-1.00 denominations (though Indian cents were scarce). You missed the days in which Merc dimes were so commonly encountered that we'd spend them. Same with Walkers. You missed the common clear-dated buffalo nickels (mostly of the 1930s) and the many slicks on which you could apply Nic-a-date. You missed a neat little gizmo in which you could place a stack of pennies or nickels, peer though a lens, and view each coin magnified, as you manually operated a slide that flipped each coin over for two-sided viewing, then ejected it. (Help me out here old-timers ... what was that device called?) You missed the musical tones of silver tossed upon silver in the trays of cash registers. You missed opening up rolls of dimes or quarters and seeing a stack of silvers, or seeing an army of silvers against a few clads. In fact, you missed the days in which silver was boring, and clad was exciting. You missed the strange confluence of excitement and heartsickness upon encountering a glittering 1964 Kennedy half.
You also missed the glory days of Numismatic News and Coin World. Coin World in particular was well over 100 pages as I recall, with lots of classifieds. Of course, you also missed the days of numismatic lawlessness in the areas of grading and originality. My experiences as a youngster spanned the spectrum of not receiving what I ordered to losing a lot of money (110.00 was a lot of money to me in the 1960s) due to whizzing and a murder. At least today there are a few sheriffs in town.
Fill in the blank: I would pay ___________ dollars per roll of guaranteed unsearched _________ from 1965 because __________________________. What you put in the last blank is what you missed. It was glorious. I bet the 1950s were even better.
Good night, all.
Whit
The good ol' days: I recall when you could send a check to the seller of an eBay coin.
My dealer texts me pics of things I may be interested in now. Gotta love technology
"The good old days in numismatics, what have us newbies missed?"
Grammar lessons, for one.
The good old days were not as good as we fondly recall. Sure, circulating silver was cool. Folks actually carried change around in their pockets and they tended to swirl it around. Silver has a distinctive, unforgettable sound.
Collecting, on the other hand, was lawless. Whether buying from a B&M or by mail order, average hobbyists were often screwed. Bad, molested coins were passed off at absurd prices to undereducated, unsuspecting collectors.
Thank heavens the TPG's came along. They aren't perfect but they sure helped fix a bad situation.
Lance.
In essence there were. The first gem Barber quarter I bought at auction in 1975 was graded as MS65/70. While they didn't yet assign a MS67 grade, the in between grades from 65 to 70 already existed in the form of much higher prices at auctions...well above CDN MS65/Gem Bu pricing. Typically, a superb gem coin would bring 2X to 3X MS65 money of that period. By 1983 I know of some leading coin firms that were marketing using grades of MS67....along with qualifiers of ABC for eye appeal, luster, and strike.
There may have not been an Ebay back in the 1970's and early to mid-1980's, but there was Coin World, where many sharks hung out and sold their wares. You would be doing good if 20% of the coins you ordered were as good as described.
I'm with you Lance
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I agree 100% with Whit!
I was born in '58, and was too young to appreciate or take advantage of circulating silver by the time I started collecting in earnest. To actually fill most holes in my blue Whitman folders was awesome, but I wasn't wise enough to expand at that time to Walkers, Barbers, SLQ's, halves or Peace/Morgans. Those would come later at a much higher price & scarcity. If only I knew then what know now!
But what I remember most was taking the long walk downtown with my grandparents in Philly from the Rittenhouse Square area down to "Smelter's Row" on Arch Street and searching for hours thru coffee cans full of silver dimes and quarters priced at "melt" for dates I needed, while they patiently waited for me. Since I just had my allowance money, I couldn't buy all I wanted, with silver so expensive at 3 to 4 times face! ;-o
I also remember laying on the floor of my grandparent's living room with my Whitman folders open wide, filling hole after hole in my penny & nickel books from circulation and a few rolls. Several years later, I'd be over my friend's house (who also collected similarly, but whose Mom worked as a bank teller), and was the lucky one who snagged an 1876 IHC from my bunch of penny rolls she brought home for us.
I also remember when the downtown Woolworth's still had a coin sales counter on street level, with coins in 2x2's at what seemed like high prices at the time, but sometimes what I needed to fill a hole at a good enough price. Those coin sections and Woolworths itself are now both long gone...... So is Hen's Coins in Lansdowne, where I could search thru junk boxes or pick up used older/scarcer Whitman blue folders for 50 cents each, which I used to build my foreign collection from Great Britain, Mexico, Canada, Australia, & New Zealand.
I also remember how, starting out as a retail manager in 1980, I would fill and count all the coin drawers and pull out all the silver coins and wheaties and silver certificates, further adding to my collection. And I could go to the bank for rolls or even a box of dimes, quarters, or halves, and come out with some 40% or 90% silver. LONG separated from that profession, and hardly using cash anymore when shopping, I can't tell you the last time I found silver or silver certificates in change.........
And then there were the flea markets and small mom-and-pop coin shops in the local "Bazaar" in Clifton Heights (long gone, too), and other indoor farmers' markets, with reasonably-priced "junk" boxes from which to find a few hole-fillers or foreign coins into which I started expanding later in my youth. No "slabs" or just silver/gold - - actual places where small-time collectors such as myself could go and shoot the breeze while searching for those elusive hole-fillers. For a while, I could even do so at the local coin show. But no longer..... I get dismayed by the over-abundance of slabbers & high-end sellers and lack of any junk-picker opportunities or affordable prices at the shows these days, and usually go home empty-handed. (Of course, with developing eye issues, I can't do or enjoy sifting thru boxes anymore anyway, which is super-depressing).
Finally, I remember being able to go to the bank and actually get rolls of quarters and halves I needed. There were no such thing as non-circulating issues of common series of coins, like we now have with JFK halves and Prez & Native American dollars - - a more recent development. To have newbie and small-time collectors get lured into collecting a series & then have their access cut off truly sucks, and, in my opinion, reduces the number of potential future collectors. That's the worst part. No longer being able to experience the fun of finding what one needs from pocket change or at a reasonable price.... Everything at the Mint is now driven by prices that have been driven-up beyond sane levels in the name of marketing and profit.
I was born at a "bad" time to fully take advantage of silver in circulation and build a vast fortune. But it has never really been about that for me. It's the little piece of history those obsolete coins represent. It's an appreciation for and something about who I am and my life growing up that I hope to pass on to my kids. But most importantly, it's a connection to my youth and my passion, and my time spent connecting with my loving, long-departed grandparents. It's something I wish every young collector could still experience and appreciate.........
I agree with the things listed above... for me, most of all, I miss the circulating silver.....it was 'real money'... Today's coinage seems more like play tokens to me... you rarely see half dollars any more...modern coins just do not have the allure... Cheers, RickO
Being able to ROLL HUNT back in the 1960's for face value silver.
I was still pulling tons of silver coins out of bank rolls as late as 1970 (of course the current issue Kennedy was still 40% silver even at that late date).
It was easy to find Buffalo Nickels and SLQ's in rolls (tho some were dateless)
In the early 1960's you could still get Morgan Dollars at some banks for face value.
In the 1960's coin collecting was semi-cool with a number of coin collectors (or infamous coins) on popular TV shows
Mr Wilson on Dennis the Menace, for example. I remember a few shows in the 1960s that featured coins -- a stolen $50 gold PanPac on Dragnet, I also think there was a stolen coin featured on Hawaii Five 0.
In the 1960's almost every corner drug store had a coin display with blue whitman folders, plastic 2x2 lucite holders, and Redbooks.
Some upscale, high-end Department Stores in the 1960's had active coin shops right in the store.
Of course in the 1960's everything was raw and it was the wild wild west ... easy to get ripped off.
Tons of dipping -- everything was dipped out so dealers could sell for the highest BU (Brilliant Unc) price.
I hardly ever saw anything toned back then as dealers and collectors were dipping everything. You could buy abrasive COIN CLEANER paste everywhere! Lead to a lot of "improperly cleaned" coins.
Many fewer levels of grades: there was Uncirculated (Unc.), Choice Uncirculated (Ch. Unc.), and finally Brilliant or Gem Unc. (BU) -- however some crafty dealers would dip out high end AU58's and sell them as BU. Def had to watch your step. The closest thing to a "professional label" was a dealer stapling a coin in a 2x2 and writing "BU" on the flip.
Of course some things have stayed the same! USMint offerings were still a rip off (and a losing game), probably starting around 1955 or so.
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
You also missed some other things, based on my experience:
1. Getting your silver coins dipped 'to order', to render them white, by the seller.
2. Selling a coin to a B&M dealer, priced at a grade below what you think it was, and then seeing it in the dealer's display case a week later in a new 2x2 or flip, with a notation that it was 1 or more grade increments higher than he claimed it was when he bought it.
3. Actually using the latest Red Book for pricing information. [There wasn't a lot else for collectors.]
4. Thinking COINS was a valuable publication, which I no longer feel is the case. For many years, Walter Breen wrote commentaries for this journal, called 'Bristles and Barbs'. Many of these opinion pieces (some were book reviews) were quite interesting, and I still feel this way.
5. The Numismatic Scrapbook Magazine (I got 'hand-me-down' issues from my grandmother). Lots of interesting articles in that journal, which is no longer in print. I would love to be able to buy a CD containing the entire run of digitized issues.
6. Thinking the AU-UNC divide was clear, and set in stone.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
To sum up what I am reading above is that folks mostly liked collecting in the good ole days. It was just the bad dealers and cleaned coins we do not want to bring back.
WS
WaterSport,
The 'good ole days' weren't entirely good, just as problems exist today. There was a much greater information disparity between collectors and dealers back then (30+ years ago). The internet has leveled things out a bit, and there are far more books available today for collectors to learn things from. Bad dealers back then? Well, there are plenty of bad dealers today--slabs with graded inserts did largely stop the 'buy low, and sell at higher grade' games that dealers tended to play back then, but games DO continue to be played. Cleaned coins? They are still around, and altered coins have been getting so cleverly done in recent years that they have fooled graders and experienced dealers.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
You missed $40-50 silver, that's $120-$150 in today's money...consider yourself lucky.
The high silver market was largely due to an attempt by the Hunt brothers to corner the world silver market. They overextended themselves, and had to sell possessions, including antiquities and rare coins.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Miniver Cheevy,
If it resulted in a lot of melting, it could have help create some rarities. Are any rarities created from the silver melt off known.?
@logger7 posted, I didn't get into numismatics until the late 1990s. What did I and others late to the hobby miss? 1960s, 1970S, 1980S, 1990s?
I collected coins in the 1960s as a child. I got back into coin collecting in 1983, before PCGS and other grading services were in business. I bought mainly U.S. silver and copper coins in what I called at the time "Very Choice AU"grades. I was a fussy buyer, but a fair number of these coins were graded and valued later as Mint State 63 and 64 when I went to sell or trade them. The market was a little "quiet" in the 1980s.
One of the best stories I have pertains to an 1896 Indian Cent I'd purchased as Choice AU for either $15 or $19 from Bowers & Merena (B&M). This was the going price range for nice non-key date AU Indian Cents from B&M at the time. It took me about 12 years, but I completed a set of Indian Cents in Choice AU, with all coins "raw." When I sold the set of Indian Cents and this 1896 Cent, the dealer buying the collection graded it MS-65 Red and paid me a little under $1,000 for it! Not a bad ROI....
I did buy one Indian Cent in a PCGS holder, the 1863 Cent. It was the last Indian Cent I needed to complete the collection. I just never could find a Choice AU 1863 Cent that fit my set, so I finally bought one graded PCGS MS63 and cracked it out. It fit perfectly in my AU Set!
Looking back, I wish I'd bought even more "raw coins" back in the 1980s! Hindsight is wonderful....
W. David Perkins Numismatics - http://www.davidperkinsrarecoins.com/ - 25+ Years ANA, ANS, NLG, NBS, LM JRCS, LSCC, EAC, TAMS, LM CWTS, CSNS, FUN
Sonoran...as someone who has a full set of Numismatic Scrapbook, I'm glad you can't buy it on CD, but you likely will be able to soon. Or copy it from the Newman Portal. Guess I should sell it soon.
I think these 3 particular things are still among us. Dealers frequently buy older holdered or even freshly graded coins, then resubmit them and get a higher grade. Happens every day. One grading event often doesn't determine the coin's value (maybe 50-65% of the time). Some of the dealers in my area will still price by Red Book (or any other means necessary) to get the best price from an unknowing seller. The AU-UNC divide was probably clearer back in the old days. Today it can cover anything from AU55 to MS64.
The Hunts were acquiring silver futures contracts from the early 1970's. Yet despite that, they had no big effect on silver prices until spring 1979 through Jan. 1980. For the first 9 years of the 1970's, gold out-performed silver without any huge single gold "manipulator." It was only until the Hunt's decided to start accumulating a much larger physical position in silver during spring 1979 that things really took off and strained true supply/demand. They figured if they held the actual asset in hand, it would release pressure from their long positions in futures. And it's not only that they extended themselves. It was rather that the SEC/Govt changed the rules on silver trading to only allow selling silver futures in those last couple of months. The Hunts could no longer buy and push momentum in their favor.
Imagine if someone like Buffet or huge hedge fund managers (who are similarly over-extended like the Hunts) were told they could no longer add to their positions but could only sell off. That would create a mess. The Hunts beat the silver futures market fair and square. Wall Street didn't like it so they changed the rules mid-stream. Rule changing could still be done instantly in any financial market at any time. Recall during the 2008-2009 banking crisis that a new rule was instituted to prevent short selling the big banks....you could only buy them.....Inverse Hunt Rule. I think that rule is still in play today. Fwiw Warren Buffet also acquired a similar sized physical silver bullion position to the Hunt's from 1994-2006 (130 MILL ounces or $1 BILL). And in this case, I think the govt did step in and request WB divest himself of that position...just before silver was ready to go from $8/oz to $21/oz in 2 years. Though we'll never know the real answer.
Rules changing 'mid-stream'? Wouldn't happen in this hobby. Nope. Never.......
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Well, I can count the number of U.S. numismatic literature sellers on one hand. I'm beginning to think that both of us may find use for a sardonic laugh icon in the near future.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
I started collecting coins in the 1960s. Before silver was pulled from circulation, you could find quite a bit in change. Later date buffs, sometimes in XF, Mercs from the 30s and 40s, later date Walkers. SLQs were scarce, and usually dateless. Coin were meant to be spent. I'd find an occasional beat up IHC, Liberty Nickel or Barber Dime.
It was the Wild West. Choice coins were bought and sold freely, as were whizzed, cleaned, and plenty of key coins with altered dates. On some purchases, I hit it out of the park, on others, I got screwed. For a buck or two, you could pick up a gem Roosevelt dime of most dates, a little more for the 49S. $2 could get you what now would be a 38D Buff in MS 65 or MS 66.
Dealers routinely screwed retail customers. Your BU was an Unc. if you sold it to a dealer, and as someone else wrote, it was listed as a BU by said dealer who tried to buy your coin as an Unc. As RR wrote, the same thing happens now when a knowledgeable dealer buys your coin and gets an upgrade.
The good thing now is that the TPGs will stand behind a coin that they slab, in that you don't have to worry that the 16 D dime you bought has an altered date if it's in a reputable TPG slab. I think there were more fakes than real ones back in the day.
In some ways, I preferred the old days. You have more marketing hype now (yes, you had the hype re BU rolls and the 50 D nickel then, but the potential dollar loss because of it now is much more substantial). Before, if you bought a coin from an ad, you probably got screwed. Now, many people who think they can buy a coin from an image (especially a toned coin) get screwed.
Back then, if you could grade, and were patient, you could buy and sell and there was less of a chance of getting screwed than now. As others have mentioned, I believe grading of AU and Uncirculated coins is far more subjective now, than before. Back in the day, if you saw wear, it was an AU, period. Now, I see wear which is called "cabinet friction" in MS 63 Capped Bust Halves.
There were some toned coins back then, but not nearly as many as I see now, and they were generally shunned. White coins were preferred. The concept of "market acceptable" was alien. That said, there were many problem coins passed off as being as good as coins which were problem free. Also, back in the day, all of these Unc., wildly toned Capped Bust Halves would be viewed with suspicion.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
I totally agree with this statement. In the old days you were pretty much at the mercy of the local coin shop (or "shops" if you were lucky). You're choices were limited and pricing was often set in a similar fashion. As a teenager with limited funds, it sucked!
Many folks have missed handling and grading classic high end coins outside of holder.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
That, indeed, is a shame. Coins really are 3-D objects, and some have interesting edges (i.e., not just plain or reeded).
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
You were right. Hawaii Five O had an episode about a stolen 1913 Liberty Nickel.
I also miss my father occasionally bringing home a few rolls of coins after cashing his paycheck at the bank. It was great fun and was like treasure hunting for a young kid.
Don't worry Shorecoll. The Newman Portal is nice, but nothing will every take the place of having the real thing in your hands.
I've enjoyed reading these reminiscences and they bring back a lot of memories. I can relate and appreciate what has already been written and I agree with pretty much all of it, both the good and the bad that was. I just have a couple of thoughts to share.
I miss having friends to share the hobby with. When I was younger, it was not necessary to recruit people to the hobby, everyone seemed to have some interest in coins. In grade school through junior high school, I believe every kid knew what a 1901-S V.D.B. cent was. And many kids saved at least some coins. It was like the fad of pulling state quarters from change, except the coins were Buffalos, Mercury Dimes and Wheaties. Almost everyone I knew, kids or adults, had some coin knowledge and could talk coins. I had several friends my age who I could share coins with and see what new coins we had and sometime make trades. Now I have one friend with whom I can share coins. To be honest with you, I am very reluctant to tell most other people that I have coins because of the security.
The thought of buying coins in holders, photographing them and putting them away for months at a time in a safe deposit box leaves me cold. Even though I do have 3 boxes at different banks.
In "the good old days" I guess we weren't very sophisticated. We kept our coins in albums or little brown envelopes and stored them in the closet. When friends got together we pulled them out and shared them. And no one worried about who was the better grader, who's coins were worth the most or who had the finest collection. We just enjoyed the coins.
I have enjoyed this hobby off and on for a very long time and continue to do so and I hope you do too.
$60 double eagles.
Yes. I bought my first 60 dollar double eagle from F.J. Vollmer via an ad in Coin World.
My fondest recollection of the old days was eagerly awaiting for Coin World to show up each week to scour it immediately for any underrated seated/bust coins. I had picked up a number of them over the years such as banged up 1870-cc 25c for $150 via a mail bid sale in the classifieds at the back of the magazine. Only us nerds looked back here.
One of those days, a full page ad from World Wide Coin Investments out of Peachtree, GA (?) had a listing of a large hoard of rare date seated quarters they had just bought. Every S mint date was supposedly listed, with duplicates. I was on the phone in minutes hoping there was still stuff left. Sheesh. The 60-s, 64-s, 66-s, 71-s, and 72-s quarters were all gone. And duplicates too. I can only imagine what sharpie dealer or collector got to them first. It wasn't a shut out though. They didn't bother with the "less desirable" 1867-s quarters. There were 9 of those left in VG-VF. I reserved every one of those and sent out a check. The price for VFs were $65 each, Fines $55. Only 2 were VG's. When I got them...every one was a bone original with nice dusky gray toning. No hacks or marks of note. Clean coins. How rare is that today? I already owned a nice XF45 from USA Coin at $135....for a grand total of 10. I should have just sat on them. Must have been dozens of better date S mints in that hoard. BJ Searls if I recall correctly handled orders for WWCI back then. I would imagine that's the same person who has been at PCGS for nearly 20 yrs.