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The Official PCGS White Label Rattler Census --- 71 listed as of 11/22/19

illini420illini420 Posts: 11,466 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited September 21, 2022 8:47AM in U.S. Coin Forum

The PCGS "White Label Rattler"



Information posted by Michael Sherman, PCGS Director of Education, on 8/5/16:

White label holders were used less than a month. It was actually unplanned, as the vendor shipped the wrong color and type of labels. They were supposed to be ribbed, light green paper, but we got white, unribbed paper, so we used those till the correct labels arrived. This was in early February, 1986.

There are two varieties of white labels. Gen 1.0 used a crude, dot matrix printer. Note the shape of the "5". That was used only a few days, and I doubt more than a handful exist today. It appears the first 900 or 1000 coins used this style. Cert numbers are roughly 1080000 through 1081000.

Gen 1.1 used the newer, improved printer. Possibly around 1400 or so of these were issued. I would imagine there may be a few hundred of those around still, but that may be a high estimate. Cert numbers of these should be in the 1081000 to 1082380 range. (These are simply estimates from those I have seen.)

Note that the light green label (Gen 1.2) used from March 1986 through Sept 1989 tends to fade with time, so the real test for a true white label is the insert stock. It should be unribbed. If you see horizontal ribbing, it's a generation 1.2 even if it has faded to white.

Shortly, we will be announcing a website that will detail all of the PCGS holder generations.



Since that post, PCGS has added a Museum of Coin Holders to their website. The Museum includes the White Label Rattlers as Generations 1.0 and 1.1

PCGS Museum of Coin Holders



Here is a photo taken by the Penny Lady at the February 2011 Long Beach show of a couple of white label rattlers being displayed by PCGS as part of their 25th anniversary celebration:



The White Label vs. The Green Label



The PCGS "White Label Rattler" Census:



Gen 1.0 (29 Listed)

1080129 - 1851 Three Cent Silver MS63 CAC Gold - cert no. invalid

1080131 - 1878 Shield Nickel PR63 - cert no. invalid

1080145 - 1909 $5 Indian Gold MS63 - cert no. invalid

1080197 - 1904-O Morgan Dollar MS64 - cert no. invalid

1080198 - 1904-O Morgan Dollar MS64 CAC - cert no. invalid

1080214*** - 1881-S Morgan Dollar MS64 CAC - cert no. invalid

1080221 - 1943-S Walking Liberty Half MS65 - cert no. invalid

1080313 - 1938-D Buffalo Nickel MS65

1080330 - 1962 Franklin Half PR67

1080336 - 1961 Franklin Half PR65

1080337 - 1961 Franklin Half PR67 CAC

1080339*** - 1963 Franklin Half PR65

1080340 - 1963 Franklin Half PR67

1080410 - 1837 Seated Dime No Stars MS64 CAC Gold

1080411 - 1838 Seated Dime Large Stars MS65 CAC

1080412 - 1859 Seated Dime MS65 CAC

1080508 - 1944-D Walking Liberty Half MS65

1080532 - 1945-D Walking Liberty Half MS65 CAC

1080540 - 1945-D Walking Liberty Half MS66

1080560 - 1938 Walking Liberty Half PR65 CAC Gold

1080596 - 1900 $2.5 Liberty Gold MS64 CAC

1080628 - 1867 Seated Quarter MS64

1080685 - 1892 Columbian Half MS65 CAC

1080710 - 1941 Mercury Dime PR65 CAC Gold

1080720 - 1938-D Buffalo Nickel MS66 CAC

1080729 - 1942 Mercury Dime PR65 CAC Gold

1080805 - 1881-S Morgan Dollar MS64 CAC

1080845 - 1878 Shield Nickel PR67 CAC

1080883 - 1937 Buffalo Nickel PR65 CAC Gold



Gen 1.1 (42 Listed)

1081041 - 1926 $2.5 Sesquicentennial Gold MS63 CAC

1081045 - 1917 $1 McKinley Gold MS63 CAC Gold

1081059 - 1964 Kennedy Half PR69

1081109 - 1936-S Oregon Trail Half MS63

1081209 - 1903 $20 Liberty Gold MS63

1081235 - 1946 Walking Liberty Half MS64

1081268 - 1946 Iowa Half MS65 CAC Gold

1081301 - 1935 Spanish Trail Half MS65

1081304 - 1935 Texas Half MS65 CAC

1081346*** - 1941-D Walking Liberty Half MS65 - cert no. invalid

1081359 - 1939 Mercury Dime PR65 CAC Gold

1081362 - 1940 Mercury Dime PR65 CAC Gold

1081398 - 1899-O Morgan Dollar MS63

1081408 - 1900 Morgan Dollar MS62

1081426 - 1903 Morgan Dollar MS63

1081443 - 1922-D Peace Dollar MS62

1081544 - 1882-S Morgan Dollar MS63

1081572 - 1913 Lincoln Cent MS65RD CAC

1081670 - 1862 Seated Half Dime MS65 CAC

1081686 - 1963 Franklin Half PR65

1081722 - 1882-S Morgan Dollar MS64

1081750 - 1946 Iowa Half MS65

1081791 - 1937 Buffalo Nickel MS65

1081817 - 1881-S Morgan Dollar MS65PL

1081819 - 1882-S Morgan Dollar MS65

1081878 - 1892 Morgan Dollar MS62 CAC

1081932 - 1902-O Morgan Dollar MS63

1081939 - 1903-O Morgan Dollar MS63

1081943 - 1904-O Morgan Dollar MS64

1081948 - 1936 Albany Half MS65

1081957 - 1936-S Oregon Trail Half MS65 CAC

1081958 - 1938-D Oregon Trail Half MS66

1081973 - 1899 $5 Liberty Gold MS63

1081982 - 1898-O Morgan Dollar MS64

1081984 - 1898-O Morgan Dollar MS64

1081992 - 1898-O Morgan Dollar MS63 CAC

1082007 - 1882-CC Morgan Dollar MS64PL

1082010 - 1882-CC Morgan Dollar MS63 CAC

1082088 - 1924 $20 St. Gaudens Double Eagle MS64

1082350 - 1943-D Walking Liberty Half MS63

1082370 - 1935 Connecticut Half MS65

1082378 - 1964 Kennedy Half PR67



Remember that not all PCGS Rattlers starting with cert no. 108XXXX are white label rattlers. The majority of 108XXXX rattlers are the regular green label rattlers that are listed as the Generation 1.2 PCGS holder.

In an effort to help find the cut-off point between the Generation 1.1 and 1.2 holders, here are a couple of the lowest 108XXXX certification numbers found on Generation 1.2 green label rattlers:

1082093 - 1924 $20 St. Gaudens Double Eagle MS63 - Possible regrade/reholder?

1082388 - 1922 Grant Gold Dollar PCGS MS65 - and you can see an image of the coin here on Great Collections

1082428 - 1891-CC Morgan Dollar PCGS MS64 - and you can see an image of the coin here on Great Collections



As of 8/15/2019, we note that some white label rattlers have been "found" online only by searching old auction archives and not seen by a fourm member in person. When that is the case, we can no longer be certain the coin is still in that old white label holder. Accordingly, effective as of 8/15/2019, those coins "discovered" by our members only through old auction records or online listings have been marked with "***" following the certification number.




If you have found another PCGS "White Label Rattler" please post the information below and it will be added to the list. Thanks!

:+1:

«134567

Comments

  • illini420illini420 Posts: 11,466 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This pair was listed in an eBay listing awhile back with no slab premium... I missed it though... bummer!! Anyone here get it?

  • 78saen78saen Posts: 980 ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2, 2022 11:27AM

    .

    Positive Transactions, CharlotteDude, SpaceMonkey, pcgs69, LeeG, MICHAELDIXON, drddm, yellowkid, jmj3esq, colorcommem, CommemDude, lkeigwin, InYHWHWeTrust, ajaan, CoinAddict, CCC2010, coinsarefun, nibanny, scrapman1077, fivecents, erickso1, ibzman350, lakeshore and more.
  • Sandman70gtSandman70gt Posts: 978 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 9, 2017 9:20AM

    Sold on CRO recently.
    Thanks for doing this census Mike.

    Bst transactions with: dimeman, oih82w8, mercurydimeguy, dunerlaw, Lakesammman, 2ltdjorn, MattTheRiley, dpvilla, drddm, CommemKing, Relaxn, Yorkshireman, Cucamongacoin, jtlee321, greencopper, coin22lover, coinfolio, lindedad, spummybum, Leeroybrown, flackthat, BryceM, Surfinxhi, VanHalen, astrorat, robkool, Wingsrule, PennyGuy, al410, Ilikecolor, Southcounty, Namvet69, Commemdude, oreville, Leebone

  • illini420illini420 Posts: 11,466 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Had missed that Proof Walker the first time around... added to the list now, thanks :)

  • blu62vetteblu62vette Posts: 11,900 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @illini420 said:
    This pair was listed in an eBay listing awhile back with no slab premium... I missed it though... bummer!! Anyone here get it?

    I did not buy off eBay but have it now. If the forum wants to take credit for his great purchase he can, but I wont name him.

    http://www.bluccphotos.com" target="new">BluCC Photos Shows for onsite imaging: Nov Baltimore, FUN, Long Beach http://www.facebook.com/bluccphotos" target="new">BluCC on Facebook
  • illini420illini420 Posts: 11,466 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Added some more info to the OP as well as a few more coins... also can verify CAC status of these at some point if you all think that is important to track.

    :)

  • stealerstealer Posts: 3,967 ✭✭✭✭

    There was a proof Shield nickel that sold on GC at the same time as the 1851 3cs. I don't recall the cert number or date though.

  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,243 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 19, 2019 10:55AM

    Haven't had too many cherry picks - these are getting better known!

    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,243 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 11, 2017 7:21PM

    Interesting story - One day a few years ago I got an email.

    Someone recognized the rattler they had was different looking.

    They had Googled "white rattler" out of the blue (not knowing that's what we call it) and my PCGS BST offer was one of the hits.

    I filled him in on what it was, made an offer and bought his P67 Franky OWR. B)

    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
  • illini420illini420 Posts: 11,466 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Just received an email w/ a new addition to the list:

    1080720 - 1938-D Buffalo Nickel MS66 CAC

    :+1:

  • LewLew Posts: 167 ✭✭✭

    I finally got a picture of my PCGA Gen 1.1 --1081408

  • illini420illini420 Posts: 11,466 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Added several more to the list... up to 39 confirmed now!

    Also added a couple of low number 108XXXX Generation 1.2 green label rattlers to the list in an effort to find the cut-off point between Generation 1.1 and 1.2

    Please let me know if you have any others or have any other suggestions for the census.

    :+1:

  • USARaritiesUSARarities Posts: 71 ✭✭✭

    Correction to your list of Gen 1.1 coins - cert num 1081304 is a 1935 Texas Commem 50C in MS65 CAC

    Chris, USA Rarities
  • illini420illini420 Posts: 11,466 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks, got it fixed now :)

    :+1:

  • USARaritiesUSARarities Posts: 71 ✭✭✭

    Thanks. And btw, great work on this post. I really appreciate the research you put into this topic.

    Chris, USA Rarities
  • astroratastrorat Posts: 9,221 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here is my one and only ...


    Numismatist Ordinaire
    See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
  • illini420illini420 Posts: 11,466 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @USARarities said:
    Thanks. And btw, great work on this post. I really appreciate the research you put into this topic.

    Thanks for the kind words :)

    Updated the OP and we're now up to 40 listings!

    :+1:

  • LewLew Posts: 167 ✭✭✭

    Two more.
    I attended the Springfield, Illinois Coin Show today.
    One of the dealers had a display in his case and two of the coins were white rattlers -- a Gen 1.0 and a Gen 1.1.
    They are 45-D Walker, MS-65; 1080532 and an Albany, MS-65, 1081948. No pictures; I should have taken a picture with my iPhone but didn't think about it until on my way home. The dealers son, I think, knows about the generation 1 holders. He said the Albany was one of a bunch that were submitted back then. I pulled up this discussion thread and he said he know some of you that have posted.

  • illini420illini420 Posts: 11,466 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Great, thanks for the report and I've updated the census above!

    :+1:

  • illini420illini420 Posts: 11,466 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Anyone have any new white label rattlers pop up lately?

    I bought and sold one of them at the recent Long Beach show a couple weeks ago, but it was one already in the census.

    :+1:

  • ttownttown Posts: 4,472 ✭✭✭

  • ttownttown Posts: 4,472 ✭✭✭

    That's the only rattlers I have

  • ttownttown Posts: 4,472 ✭✭✭

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have no idea if I have one... I have a lot of older slabs I picked up over the years. I suppose I should take a look. I will post the number here if I find one... Cheers, RickO

  • TreashuntTreashunt Posts: 6,747 ✭✭✭✭✭

    why are so many pictures missing?

    Frank

    BHNC #203

  • morgandollar1878morgandollar1878 Posts: 4,002 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ttown... sorry neither of those Franklins are in the old white label holders. Serial number should start with 108. Nice ones though.

    Instagram: nomad_numismatics
  • illini420illini420 Posts: 11,466 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Was at the Denver ANA World's Fair of Money this last week and saw only one PCGS White Label Rattler on the bourse. The coin was pointed out to me by another forum member and it is not a cheap one!!

    1080628 - 1867 Seated Quarter PCGS MS64

    :+1:

  • REALGATORREALGATOR Posts: 2,577 ✭✭✭✭✭

    How about this one?

  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,243 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Realgator - Nope - green with ribs in the paper.

    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
  • REALGATORREALGATOR Posts: 2,577 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 11, 2017 6:19PM

    Looks like we have a mystery on our hands.
    2093 < 2350

    A gen. 1.2 with an earlier sequence than a 1.1?

  • Sandman70gtSandman70gt Posts: 978 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Well it is a bit of a mystery. A couple possibilities:

    They must have found more white labels after the green labels arrived from their supplier and used them up.

    Possibly using another printer with different labels in loaded in it.

    Bst transactions with: dimeman, oih82w8, mercurydimeguy, dunerlaw, Lakesammman, 2ltdjorn, MattTheRiley, dpvilla, drddm, CommemKing, Relaxn, Yorkshireman, Cucamongacoin, jtlee321, greencopper, coin22lover, coinfolio, lindedad, spummybum, Leeroybrown, flackthat, BryceM, Surfinxhi, VanHalen, astrorat, robkool, Wingsrule, PennyGuy, al410, Ilikecolor, Southcounty, Namvet69, Commemdude, oreville, Leebone

  • illini420illini420 Posts: 11,466 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Could have also been a reholder of a white label rattler at the time green label rattlers were still in use... keeping the same cert number.

  • DRUNNERDRUNNER Posts: 3,788 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Mike . .

    1080330 -- 1962 PF67 Franklin

    Drunner

  • Batman23Batman23 Posts: 4,998 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Interesting that every coin on the OWR list happen to be MS and PR.

  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,243 ✭✭✭✭✭

    newcollect - that's a green label with ribbing in the paper.

    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
  • illini420illini420 Posts: 11,466 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DRUNNER said:
    Mike . .

    1080330 -- 1962 PF67 Franklin

    Drunner

    Thanks for the addition to the list :)

    :+1:

  • Peace_dollar88Peace_dollar88 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I've always dreamed of coming across one of these on ebay. Have never found one..... yet! The hunt continues..

  • I would be interested in seeing a thread on the valuation of the Rattler gen. 1.0, 1.1 and 1.2 .
    Likewise, I would like to see serial numbers developed identifying the end of one series and the beginning of the next. What number ends the white labels??)
    I have spoken to Mike Kittle indirectly on the subject of valuation. He was not interested in addressing the matter head on, however, I suspect he has much that could be useful. This subject may well fall into the 'Proprietary Business Information' arena. Not faulting Mike. If I were in his position, I would surely be thinking along the same lines.
    Mike, if you are reading this; perhaps you might share your sell prices.

    From what little I have seen, it appears that the white labels have a premiums that are multiples of the Gray Sheet for the coin. If the coin is worth less than $100 up to $200, the multiple could be 4 to 8 times of the Gray Sheet listed value.
    As the Gray Sheet values increase, the multiple drops. Mike sold the 1909 MS63 $5 gold (#1080145) for about 3+ times the G.S. bid price at that time.
    The connection appears to be: as the G.S. bid increases, the multiple commanded decreases.
    As the PCGS Generation pushes thru the 108xxxx series and the white labels yield to blue labels and the numbered series move beyond 108xxxx to 109xxxxx and beyond, the premium/multliple evaporates.
    Is there an intrepid maven out there capable of assigning more than a cursory guess as to what these multiples are?

    MagicSteve

    How can I keep my wife from finding out what I just bought?
  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,243 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't think coming up with a pre-set formula will work as there are too many variables.

    If another Morgan came available, I'd be yawning. If the right type coin was offered, I'd be all over it aggressively.

    There was a OWR at the ANA with a nice type coin in it but the coin was very unattractive and priced at 5 figures.

    At a minimum, the holder is worth a $300-$400 premium.

    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
  • Sandman70gtSandman70gt Posts: 978 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Sold on ebay today

    Bst transactions with: dimeman, oih82w8, mercurydimeguy, dunerlaw, Lakesammman, 2ltdjorn, MattTheRiley, dpvilla, drddm, CommemKing, Relaxn, Yorkshireman, Cucamongacoin, jtlee321, greencopper, coin22lover, coinfolio, lindedad, spummybum, Leeroybrown, flackthat, BryceM, Surfinxhi, VanHalen, astrorat, robkool, Wingsrule, PennyGuy, al410, Ilikecolor, Southcounty, Namvet69, Commemdude, oreville, Leebone

  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,243 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Man, as much time as I spend on eBay, how do I miss these! : :'(

    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
  • illini420illini420 Posts: 11,466 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Updated the list with two more coins today... getting close to 50 of these white label rattlers listed in the census!!!

    :+1:

  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,243 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 15, 2017 1:13PM

    Here's the lowest 1.2 I've seen - appeared today on ebay.

    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
  • Sandman70gtSandman70gt Posts: 978 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @REALGATOR posted that one back in August. Nobody knows how it's green!

    But as Kermit the frog has said...It's not easy being green. B)

    Bst transactions with: dimeman, oih82w8, mercurydimeguy, dunerlaw, Lakesammman, 2ltdjorn, MattTheRiley, dpvilla, drddm, CommemKing, Relaxn, Yorkshireman, Cucamongacoin, jtlee321, greencopper, coin22lover, coinfolio, lindedad, spummybum, Leeroybrown, flackthat, BryceM, Surfinxhi, VanHalen, astrorat, robkool, Wingsrule, PennyGuy, al410, Ilikecolor, Southcounty, Namvet69, Commemdude, oreville, Leebone

  • Peace_dollar88Peace_dollar88 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have been on the hunt! but nothing yet!

  • jtlee321jtlee321 Posts: 2,355 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 15, 2017 4:33PM

    @Lakesammman said:
    Here's the lowest 1.2 I've seen - appeared today on ebay.

    What if this was the very first green rattler? I mean it does not seem like a stretch that it would have been part of the same submission as the 1924 $20 with cert number 1082088 above, considering it's a 1926 $20 with cert number 1082093. Only 5 certificates difference between the white and that green.

  • Sandman70gtSandman70gt Posts: 978 ✭✭✭✭✭

    As far as cert the cert #s go, it IS the 1st green rattler. Only one white label with a cert # higher has been found. Maybe this Saint is the beginning of gen 1.2 and my white label walker cert # 1082350 is the anomaly. There is a large gap between 1082093 and 1082350. Maybe some time will give us more clues on what happened here.

    Bst transactions with: dimeman, oih82w8, mercurydimeguy, dunerlaw, Lakesammman, 2ltdjorn, MattTheRiley, dpvilla, drddm, CommemKing, Relaxn, Yorkshireman, Cucamongacoin, jtlee321, greencopper, coin22lover, coinfolio, lindedad, spummybum, Leeroybrown, flackthat, BryceM, Surfinxhi, VanHalen, astrorat, robkool, Wingsrule, PennyGuy, al410, Ilikecolor, Southcounty, Namvet69, Commemdude, oreville, Leebone

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