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Where to view gold coins with bad color
Gazes
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The title may seem odd. I try to be very careful about the gold coins I buy---just use a couple of trusted dealers and almost all CAC. When I view my coins, they do seem to have a similar look. It got me thinking that I do not see many badly cleaned coins, messed with coins, etc since the couple of dealers I trust and CAC hopefully have eliminated those from my possible purchases. Without going to a show (which I will if I have the opportunity), does anyone have any suggestions on where to see badly cleaned or poor color gold coins so I can get a better feeling what to avoid? Thanks
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I'd say that 80% of the gold coins on the market are cleaned or messed with in some way and even some CAC certified coins are obviously not original. Go to a lot viewing and you will see 90% of the lots are processed in some way.
Latin American Collection
Initially I was impressed by gold coins with toning, in time I realized that gold is inert and only the copper and impurities would be responsible for variation in tone and color. The branch mints have more of that than the central ones.
Latin American Collection
Boosibri, that 48 is a real beauty!
I think this is a great question. Here are a few of my humble thoughts.....
I admire that you are asking the question and that you want to know to better educate yourself. The best part about your effort is that you will begin to have the confidence to explore beyond your "trusted dealer" source. Keep in mind, that nice coins can pop-up anywhere, and that sticking to a few dealers could wind up limiting your opportunities.
Gold is a very stable metal. It can stay shiny for years and years. That is WHY gold jewelry is so sought after. While there is little doubt that a lot of Gold has been "processed", in many cases, if done correctly, it is no big deal. I do not care what anyone says, but PVC should be removed anytime it is detected. That is called conservation, not cleaning.
I applaud your comments about Copper Spots. Nothing says "hey I am original" (and very cool) like Copper Spots. Yet ironically, many dealers complain collectors avoid coins with Copper Spots. CAC, by the way, loves copper spots. So again, you taking the time here to understand what is really going on is very refreshing.
Very sound advice.
There are few places where you can learn more about coins in such a small amount of time. Looking at hundreds of coins up close under proper lighting will teach you a ton about surfaces, toning and how each of the tpgs grade.
My Ebay Store
color on gold is a great topic. i have learned some things and i would love experts to jump in an correct me and/or add to my observations below.
the first thing that i think should be mentioned is: gold from different time periods and places/mints look different and gold coins have different compositions. so, you have to know your series composition and how gold from that time period looks. branch mints all have different characteristics as well.
circulated and un-circulated gold look different. for example, you'd expect an un-circulated piece to have a brighter color than an circulated example.
color on circulated pieces
a circulated piece should show a darker color gold. this dark color you want to see on the highlights on the pieces. this seems counter-intuitive because the highlights are usually the first spots to wear on coins and they turn brighter...this is true. however, when we are talking about coins that have not circulated in approx 100 years or more,
so the exposed areas tend to be darker than those protected because of the loss of luster. you can see this is you compare the two 1859 coins above. overall, the circulated piece is darker (including the luster) and the protected areas have luster that is shinier than the high points. this makes them appear darker.
(not my coin, but i wish^^)
sometimes you see the reverse of that:
the highlights are all bright and shiny...like an uncirculated piece but the protected areas are all dark. this gives the appearence of a legit circulated piece because it's darker and has dirt. but this coin is cleaned.
sometimes toning is a factor:
the alloy in this coin toned. so it appears to be lighter on the highlights than the protected areas...however if you look closer, you'll see yellow luster halos, then toning, then khaki. if this coin had not toned the khaki areas would be darker than the luster. it just happens that some of that luster toned.
color on un-circulated pieces
un-circulated pieces are all about luster. the thicker and darker the luster, the better because we are talking about old coins. you should see a layer of "time" on top of undisturbed mint luster:
this coin is not mine, graded ms64. it's dark because it's old...but the luster closest to the devices is lighter than the center...except where you see marks. it looks "thick."
this coin is also ms64 and not mine. look how much lighter it is....hmm. i don't know for sure if it's been dipped, but i would expect it to have more "time" on top of that luster. that luster looks really bright and fresh... and kinda "thin."
bottom line...it helps to look at a lot of coins. look at a lot before you buy any.
This coin has obviously been worked on, but it is a rare type. I paid EF-40 money for it at time. NGC graded it "MS-61." Unfortunately many EF-40 graded gold coins don't look like much these days, and this one type that can cause you "to break the bank" when you find it.
Many of these coins saw virtually no circulation. The vast majority were issued by the Philadelphia MInt, exported to Europe and quickly melted. Most of the few that stayed state side were melted with the Coinage Act of 1834 was passed. After that you could turn in 15 of these coins to the Philadelphia Mint for re-coinage and get back 16 new Classic Head $5 gold pieces. There were not many collectors in the U.S. at that time. so most of these went to the melting pot.
I also don't find this design to be very attractive even when the coin is in high grade. For those reasons, I'm satisfied with it.
They are all beautiful whatever the color!
I love toned gold! Kinda a new addiction of mine. That pikes peak coin is gorgeous!
Gold, to me, is attractive whether it be 'as minted' or dirty....What I do not like, is damaged surfaces. Cheers, RickO
Very nice introduction to gold. Thank you for posting it Steveben.
Go through the Heritage Auction Archives. There is no shortage of dipped or cleaned gold there, many in details only holders. And also many fully original examples to compare with. As already mentioned a big difference between circ and mint state gold on what to look for.
"Copper spots" do not ensure original surfaces. Their presence only means the surface has been contaminated by one or more particulates.
I've been focused on mid 19th C gold for 5 + years and steveben's synopsis is very valuable. As steveben notes, know what the gold you're interested in is supposed to look like. There, your trusted dealers are invaluable, unless you've been studying numismatics for decades. Doug Winter is THE expert here, IMO, but I'm sure Jeff Garrett and others are more than qualified for an expert opinion on original gold.
US Civil War coinage
Historical Medals
Copper spots that have been dipped off of a piece come back, and they quite often do just that a year a so later to an unsuspecting buyer.
"Copper spots that have been dipped off of a piece come back, and they quite often do just that a year a so later to an unsuspecting buyer."
True.
They come back because dipping removes only the superficial discoloration and not the cause. (There are multiple research articles from international museums on the subject.)
This 1855-C G$1 has a copper spot and has been cleaned. However, it is one of the most well struck and nicest looking 55-C's you will find. This issue is probably the poorest produced coin in the entire series, and virtually all are "ugly". So I had to decide if I was willing to live with the spot and cleaning or pay twice as much for an "uglier" example. I chose this one. It is all about the trade offs!
Well placed copper spot on Liberty's lips. Looks like lipstick!
Latin American Collection
Copper spot/toning on the chin/lip. Looks like war paint, or like he just took a bite of his enemies heart!
Great looking gold and informative show & tell, Brian & Steve... I never get tired of looking at that '42 HE.
I cannot think of a single $2.50 in my collection with copper spots. At times I wonder whether some of my more original coins are toned or just dirty.
My suggestion is to become familiar with the various looks of original, unmessed with coins. The messed with examples will become readily apparent thereafter.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163