CAC and Gold coins
Gazes
Posts: 2,315 ✭✭✭✭✭
I know there are many different opinions on CAC. Usually the discussion is focused on grading. On Legend's site recently under their hot topics they talked about the importance of a CAC sticker on gold coins not for affirmation that it is solid for the grade but as affirmation that the coin has not been messed with or doctored. Gold coins in general have very low sticker rates apparently for this reason. For those who seek out CAC stickers---is this a primary reason you do so? For those who don't care about the sticker---is "messed" with coins not a concern or do you feel you can distinguish it on your own without the help of CAC? Thanks
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Why is it thought that the TPG cannot identify 'messed with' gold?? They certainly have in the past.... Cheers, RickO
I guess that is another option on opinions--curious if others think TPG polices messed with coins well enough without cac
The tpg's routinely holder processed coins . As a gold collector, JA is at the top for filtering out doctored coins and I value CAC for that service . Unfortunelty the tpg's are quite forgiving on what is market acceptable in rare gold.
Latin American Collection
I won't buy gold unless it's stickered. This is JA's strength. He stickers a VERY low rate of gold coins. $10 Indians and early gold he is a bear on. Saints as well as there was a time the TPG's were loosy goosy with them. Almost killed the market. The cost between 66 and 65 Saints stickered or unstickerd is staggering
M
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I did not realize this.....I have substantial slabbed gold....much of it acquired before CAC existed. Cheers, RickO
Wouldn't you trust the TPG who has the coin raw in hand, vs. CAC viewing it through plastic, with a hidden edge???
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
I have purchased both stickered and non stickered gold coins. If I limited myself to nothing but gold coins that got the CAC seal of approval, filling the holes in my collection would be far more difficult, perhaps impossible. Some of the coins on my list only show up a few times a year at most. I will say that have seen far fewer "undeserving" CAC stickered gold coins than I have coins in other metals.
As for my non-CAC collection, I have a some pieces that would never CAC partly because they are not original and partly because they might be considered over graded. For pieces that might be over graded, what you paid is really the more important factor. Many of the non CAC gold coins I have should make the grade, but I'm not willing to spend the money and take the risk of losing them in transit to find out.
Hi ricko
I would send them in eventually. I know you're not a seller but someday somebody will of your gold. The premiums are staggering so you wouldn't need but one to sticker to off set the cost.
Of course nobody can predict the future if this trend continues
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I see nobody has mentioned the fact that messed with gold might not show up when graded. Some folks find out much later that it has turned in the holder. So I wouldn't agree completely that it is all the TPG fault. Of course once it's turned it may be easy to spot.
So IMO while JA might be the leading expert in gold, he get's some easy ones to pass judgement on.
@Justacommeman....Thanks for the tip.... it is certainly valid.....I will look at what I have and send some in....Cheers, RickO
I thought that's why JA was hired / paid, to sort the chaff from the kernel,
MHO
"I see nobody has mentioned the fact that messed with gold might not show up when graded."
From what I've seen and heard, puttied gold does not raise its ugly head until about year after the repair was done to it.
I paid a huge premium for this 1839-O, PCGS AU-58 CAC quarter eagle. I probably over paid for it, but it is very nice. The trouble is it bothers me to pay that kind of money for a coin that has the approval of one man. I don't want to keep paying premiums like that for each coin.
What happens to CAC if JA should leave or, heaven forbid, he should pass on? It seems the whole company is dependent on his reputation and his continued involvement with it.
period, out of line
Bill Jones - That is a nice quarter eagle. Don't worry about the money. Your heirs will be drinking them drinks with umbrellas in them on a nice vacation that maybe you wouldn't do for yourself. Enjoy the coins.
i think the key is to pick a series you are passionate about and look at as many coins as you can in hand. pretty soon you'll be able to tell which have been messed with and which have not.
Yep
You don't know what I paid for that. Forget the AU-58 prices.
Really nice coin. I'm guessing you paid a 50% premium.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
"Market acceptable" -- the scourge of the original gold collecting enthusiast & purist.
'dude
Well, any time these days you combine what you have PCGS, AU-58, and John you gonna pay if you want it. And the coin looks like it's worth a healthy premium IF you want to own it.
CAC probably sees a ton more MS63-MS66 generic gold that it does anything in gold coinage. And so much of that stuff was grade inflated from 1995-2008, and again from 2011-2015 that the choice/generic gem gold market really needed something like CAC. Early on the sticker rates for MS65 Saints was around 3-10%. From what I've seen in gold coins going to CAC, most of them will fail due to too many marks, odd luster, over-dipped/unnatural looking surfaces, high point rub/friction, etc. I think doctored/altered/puttied coins are seen far less often. And the TPG's screen out the vast majority of those problem coins. If some get by, JA will likely find them.
I've also noticed that JA is not much of a fan of 1908 NM saints. Those almost seem to start off a grade lower. He hasn't stickered a single coin out of 100+ ones graded MS68. That has always surprised me because I consistently see MS65-66-67 Wells Fargo Saints with killer luster, original surfaces, and very few marks for the grade....yet no sticker. I've never asked the question but the only thing left must be the high point striking characteristics of these.
I haven't gotten many gold coins get the sticker that really matter, and as far as gold stickers on gold--usually you buy those at premiums already so a gold sticker just makes it easier to sell later. As an aside, looks like Trump is in CAC's town, Bedminster this weekend. What struck me about the town was all the catering companies.
Perhaps he doesn't want to buy them unless they're a point higher than graded. Isn't that behind most of it?
If his standards on coins with big spreads or premiums in assigned grades are basically the old grading standards pre-1990, then you have high end upgrade candidates. So his offers would be lower than actual value.
My collecting is limited to one gold series containing only PCGS/CAC coins.
The greater assurance of not purchasing doctored coins is a consideration but is not my most important factor in seeking out PCGS/CAC coins. Finding solid for the grade coins with original surfaces is my primary consideration. Future liquidity is also a factor.
I don't view my myself as sufficiently experienced to spot doctored coins in TPG holders without the help of CAC or someone else with comparable skills.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
I don't think any TPG/cert standards today are pre-1990 (ie rattler). I'd give JA credit for gold coin grading standards in the 1994-1998 range, the old green label holder days....of which 65-90% of them have been cracked out. And those were generally tougher (1/2 pt?) vs the 2004-2015 standards. I don't see where his offers are below actual wholesale values (and no dealer buys are "actual value" = "FMV" = retail). Considering that you can go out and buy unstickered MS65 and MS66 Saints for no premium, get them stickered (assuming a good eye and you picked the right ones), and then sell them to JA for strong premiums, tells me he pays over market. JA's buy price for MS65 stickered saints is approx the same price as what generic MS66 ones go for. That tells me he pays more. JA's stickered MS66 saints bring about $800 more than unstickered ones....a 40% premium.
Having a gold sticker on a gold coin doesn't by itself make the coin easier to sell. If you started out paying too much money for it, then you can be just as much in the hole as you could have by buying a green sticker coin, or an unstickered coin. I see too many instances of gold coin stickers going for the next grade up or even 1-1/2 grades up. For my money, you can keep the stickered MS65 Saint and I'll take a decent looking unstickered, generic MS66. The premiums on CAC stickered coins will shrink dramatically if the price of gold rises considerably. We saw that in 2009-2011 where initial premiums of 40% in early 2009 shrunk to no more than 10-15% by 2011. Generic coins outperformed the premium quality ones.
While I would agree with many of your points my observation was conditional: "If his standards on coins with big spreads or premiums in assigned grades are basically the old grading standards". So he is super conservative on MS65 and MS66 Saints, never got one to approve with CAC. Big spreads are where the price jumps up a lot so in his opinion it has to be 110% there. He does not offer full Greysheet bid in my experience.
"The old standards" can mean most anything. 1980's, 1990's, 2000's, last year, etc. The "standards" are constantly shifting, even JA's. I would suspect that JA would offer at least full Grey sheet MS66 "ask" for a MS66 CAC Saint....or MS65 "ask" for a MS65 CAC. If not, you can pick up the phone and find many larger dealers that will.
Here is mine, I am a glad I 'overpaid' for it because in reality, you don't overpay for quality and lacking human assistance. I have submitted 100s of coins to CAC and while mostly I agreed with the Jones view before I went through this process, after how much I learned about surfaces of coins from CAC determinations, I have changed my mind. The most important thing about coins with CAC approval is that they won't bean a coin that has been cleaned too much. Time and time again, when JA et al. reaches a verdit of NO PASS, the answer has come backed 'cleaned'. When JA retires and if CAC closes shop, it won't matter because folks will know what these beans stand for.
Best, SH
Correct if anything when JA retires and closes shop the spread between stickered and unstickerd coins could widen even more. Especially on gold.
Mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Since the percentage of approvals for MS65 and above Saints and other 5% levels tough to achieve, it is safe to assume that those coins would upgrade so offers should be very strong. So these are not "C" coins but just coins that are not solid "A" or above for grade. Greysheet bids in many cases are now CAC offers; so there you have a challenging math that creates more uncertainty on non-stickered coins.
Regarding your comment/question regarding what happens post JA---assuming I believe in his expertise now, I know the gold coins that he stickers now are solid for the grade and not "messed with". The coin will not change after JA is gone so in 5 or 10 or 20 years, regardless of what happens with CAC, I will know the coin I have is original and solid for the grade.