The New Doily Census - 2016
DRUNNER
Posts: 3,843 ✭✭✭✭✭
First, let me acknowledge the large efforts by Billet7 to start the initial Doily Census, and even more importantly, Lakesammman's efforts to not only build upon those initial numbers, but also bring the Census up to current levels and provide a new format, expand upon the ease of use and other (upcoming) features. This is truly his work, and while others have bemoaned the lack of a current Census, Lakes stepped up and did all the critical 'grunt' work to allow us to have a viable resource. He will also be responsible for intermittent updates, on roughly a bi-weekly schedule.
Historically, the Doily was conceived so long ago that many of the principals at the time have slightly different recollections of slabbing duration, slabbing rate per day, and even the specifics of why the Doily came into being. This much we are sure of -- the Doily was a direct response to a potential counterfeiting threat of the Rattler (Green). PCGS undertook several security measures at the time. The first was the insert -- using the idea of a more complex background, similar to what appears on currency. The second was a sealed 'ring' around the Rattler holder, which of course created the dimensions currently known for all standard PCGS holders since that time. After a small amount of production time, it was determined the insert, while certainly enhancing security, did not provide the 'look' PCGS was seeking, and the Doily insert was changed to green (starting a series of 'OGH' holders, some of which are quite rare in their own right). That decision was made quite quickly, hence the overall rarity of the Doily in current numismatics. Although there are other aspects of the apocrypha, legends, and rumors surrounding the Doily, it is imperative we acknowledge that these are my personal observations after talking with PCGS principals and notable dealers, and much more detailed information will be forthcoming from Mr. Mike Sherman of PCGS, who, in time, will publish some slabbing history from PCGS itself.
The Doily Census reveals some interesting information beyond just the numbers. First, it shows the types of coins that were most often sent in for certification during a small slice of history. Morgan Dollars (especially in 65 and above) were popular and expensive, leading to a preponderance of that coin. The relative newness of certification in general led most people to not send in too many common coins (bullion, Kennedys, etc). Certification costs were just too high to slab common coins, and unless there was a profit incentive, many did not get sent in. The Census will also show those Doilies missing the outer ring. This phenomenon happened primarily as a result of impact, as in dropping on a cement bourse floor, which would crack off the security ring, sonically sealed together, but not sealed to the inner 'Rattler' section. The Doily remains, but it is sometimes confused as a different iteration due to the missing outer ring. The ultimate solution to this was the one-piece slab, which at the time was still several generations away.
As Doilies reappear from Gramp's safety deposit box, or the dusty back corner of a B & M shop of questionable cleanliness, we will have them added here. Feel free to post a picture if you are able, and if not, the coin type, date/MM combination, grade (and any grade modifiers -- PL, DMPL, etc.), and most importantly, the certification number. Since the beginnings of the Census, many intriguing coins have appeared, we have been able to gain a more complete picture of grading standards of the time, and attention has been paid to this growing aspect of certification, which revolutionized our hobby in 1986. Look forward to several other highlights to be added here in time.
Post away . . . let's keep the Census as accurate and up-to-date as possible! If you know of any holders that have been lost (recertification, destruction, etc.), inform us. If you have any questions at all, feel free to PM (Lakesammman or Drunner), or post. We'll be monitoring the thread routinely, and welcome all who have additions or questions. I will revise this first post with more Doily information, special or unique Doily coins, and any current sales or discoveries, and update history as it can be confirmed.
Remember our mantra . . . . . . . ." Collect the Plastic, NOT the coin!"
Drunner
Historically, the Doily was conceived so long ago that many of the principals at the time have slightly different recollections of slabbing duration, slabbing rate per day, and even the specifics of why the Doily came into being. This much we are sure of -- the Doily was a direct response to a potential counterfeiting threat of the Rattler (Green). PCGS undertook several security measures at the time. The first was the insert -- using the idea of a more complex background, similar to what appears on currency. The second was a sealed 'ring' around the Rattler holder, which of course created the dimensions currently known for all standard PCGS holders since that time. After a small amount of production time, it was determined the insert, while certainly enhancing security, did not provide the 'look' PCGS was seeking, and the Doily insert was changed to green (starting a series of 'OGH' holders, some of which are quite rare in their own right). That decision was made quite quickly, hence the overall rarity of the Doily in current numismatics. Although there are other aspects of the apocrypha, legends, and rumors surrounding the Doily, it is imperative we acknowledge that these are my personal observations after talking with PCGS principals and notable dealers, and much more detailed information will be forthcoming from Mr. Mike Sherman of PCGS, who, in time, will publish some slabbing history from PCGS itself.
The Doily Census reveals some interesting information beyond just the numbers. First, it shows the types of coins that were most often sent in for certification during a small slice of history. Morgan Dollars (especially in 65 and above) were popular and expensive, leading to a preponderance of that coin. The relative newness of certification in general led most people to not send in too many common coins (bullion, Kennedys, etc). Certification costs were just too high to slab common coins, and unless there was a profit incentive, many did not get sent in. The Census will also show those Doilies missing the outer ring. This phenomenon happened primarily as a result of impact, as in dropping on a cement bourse floor, which would crack off the security ring, sonically sealed together, but not sealed to the inner 'Rattler' section. The Doily remains, but it is sometimes confused as a different iteration due to the missing outer ring. The ultimate solution to this was the one-piece slab, which at the time was still several generations away.
As Doilies reappear from Gramp's safety deposit box, or the dusty back corner of a B & M shop of questionable cleanliness, we will have them added here. Feel free to post a picture if you are able, and if not, the coin type, date/MM combination, grade (and any grade modifiers -- PL, DMPL, etc.), and most importantly, the certification number. Since the beginnings of the Census, many intriguing coins have appeared, we have been able to gain a more complete picture of grading standards of the time, and attention has been paid to this growing aspect of certification, which revolutionized our hobby in 1986. Look forward to several other highlights to be added here in time.
Post away . . . let's keep the Census as accurate and up-to-date as possible! If you know of any holders that have been lost (recertification, destruction, etc.), inform us. If you have any questions at all, feel free to PM (Lakesammman or Drunner), or post. We'll be monitoring the thread routinely, and welcome all who have additions or questions. I will revise this first post with more Doily information, special or unique Doily coins, and any current sales or discoveries, and update history as it can be confirmed.
Remember our mantra . . . . . . . ." Collect the Plastic, NOT the coin!"
Drunner
10
Comments
Welcome back Billet7 with a new handle (SimonW)! (See page 17).
Thanks to TheFinn for updating a spreadsheet and making it far more informative with the addition of grades, CAC status, etc. with the spread sheet now reflecting his efforts and posted for the 1st time tonight 7-3-18! TheFinn has obviously spent considerable time and effort on this project and it is very much appreciated! It's a work in progress and I apologize for any minor cut and paste mistakes. Would love to post w/o cutting and pasting - if anyone knows how, please let me know.
Updated through 2-7-24.
What follows is from Billet7's original thread, revised as needed.
Interesting Facts:
Currently the most valuable coin on the Doily Census is a 1800 H10C LIBERTY, V-2, LM-3, R.4, MS66 PCGS CAC coin that sold for $111,650 in 2015. The second place coin was a $10 piece with Wire Rim MS63, auctioned at Heritage 2010 August Boston, MA Signature & Platinum Night ANA Coin Auction #1143 for $46,000, no longer in a Doily.
The least valuable coin in a Doily holder is a proof Jefferson Nickel, 1964 PR65, valued at $4 by PCGS price guide.
Doily sample slabs seem to all have the same certification number, and they are all Roosevelt Dimes (so far.) The date range is 1958-1964.
The smallest coin on the census is an 1837 Half Dime submitted by Boiler78, then held by Lakesammman, now back in Boiler78's collection. Just about everyone else ties for the largest coin...a Morgan Dollar!
The earliest coin is a 1799 Draped bust dollar. The coin showed up on ebay then quickly made it's way to Coin Rarities Online...then on to some astute collector (I assume.) It was the only 18th century Doily until a VF35 1799 $1 appeared - no pictures of it available currently.
The most modern coin in a doily is a 1984 DDO Lincoln Cent, one of two error coins in the census, the other a 1972 DDO.
The most common coin type to be found in a doily holder is a Morgan Dollar.
The twenty cent piece is the only standard denomination not represented in the census (unless you include the $4 and $50 gold coins.)
Currently the largest collection (according to the census) of Doily holdered coins is BST member Drunner with Oreville, Bajjerfan and Silverchris as runners-up.
Esoteric items include a Mormon Gold $5 piece, and a 1868 large cent pattern.
There are 9 foreign coins listed, all Canadian.
Some Doily Holders are missing the outer-ring. It is rumored that many of the rings on these "damaged holders" were removed intentionally so that the doily holder would fit into the early "rattler style" boxes.
There is a curious sample slab that contains a "handcut" tag with rounded corners, the Doily design behind the coin/serial number instead of a white bar. This was discovered by Oreville, but more have surfaced on and off eBay, the number made estimated at around 10.
This is a two cent piece from my personal collection that is not on your list.
The Penny Lady®
One thing I notice that's missing that used to be on the old thread is the running count of how many of these are known... was nice see the totals quickly. Good work in trying to keep this list as current as possible
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
8191952
I can post pictures when I get back from the ANA show
My Ebay Store
Present and accounted for
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
.
CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
.
Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
.
More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
1964-D 10C MS64 5129.64/7000023
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore, Nickpatton, Namvet69,...
Have added the other 3 - will be checking regularly and updating the screen shots every 2 weeks or so, less often if new Doilies are few and far between.
Samples are left off since serial numbers are all the same - no way to accurately know the pops as a result. BUT, if you have an odd date sample, would love to see it!
Here's an image:
Joseph J. Singleton - First Superintendent of the U.S. Branch Mint in Dahlonega Georgia
Findley Ridge Collection
About Findley Ridge
My YouTube Channel
The full cert number is 09142618.
Here's my one and only:
The full cert number is 09142618.
wow, i sure do like the looks of this one. best wishes
Let's see those Doilies! Let's hear it for the work that has been done to preserve slabbing history !!!!
Lakes has already updated the above additions . . . . let's BRING IT ON !!!!!!!!
"Collect the plastic -- NOT the coin !"
My YouTube Channel
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.americanlegacycoins.com
You already have most of mine listed. The other two I have are as follows: 1881 S 6220804 and 1886 P 8185351 (missing outer holder).
Cheers,
Surf
ps. It would be kinda cool if there were totals associated with the list as well (maybe just by type and a composite total?). Thanks!
Howard
More than happy to add grades and other designations if people don't mind the "clutter" and the lack of information for the 600+ already in the spreadsheet.
Will be adding totals in the next iteration - so far Doilies make up .002% of the 31 million coins graded by PCGS (648 Doilies reported to date).
1882 CC Morgan Dollar MS 63 DMPL # 8190754. The construction of the doily list so far is an outstanding accomplishment and very helpful.
Howard
Always looking for tougher PSA 10's of Nolan Arenado, Alex Bregman, Mookie Betts, Francisco Lindor, and Mike Trout.
All Morgan Dollars
1878 7 tf Rev 79 MS 63 # 8180672
1878 S MS 63 DMPL # 8191936
1881 S MS 65 # 7349749
1881 S MS 65 # 7349751
1882 MS 63 # 8183264
1882 S MS 65 #8201989 (Gold CAC Sticker)
1882 S MS 66 # 3130068
1886 MS 64 # 8185351
1889 S MS 63 # 8201743
1896 P MS 62 # 7302987
1903 O MS 63 # 7305584
1921 P MS 64 # 8180229
Howard
You were busy but you seemed very nice, of course.
Edits and additions:
--The 1839 Bust Half is a Reeded Edge . . . (obvious I guess) and was wondering if it should have a separate category (certainly not a big deal).
--We can add a 1933-D Lincoln in 65RD - 8185175m (missing outer ring)
--The 1964 Kennedy (7305609) is a proof.
--We can add an Arkansas (P) Commem in MS64 -- 7346683.
--The Washington-Carver Commem line is repeated.
--The Norfolk Commem serial is 8199473.
Just two additions . . most is simple bookkeeping.
Thanks . .
Drunner
picked up a 63-d 50c ms64 8187527 i may try to get a gold sticker on. with outer ring.
.
The lettered v. reeded edge is an important type differentiation - thanks for noting that!
All - is it important to call out the Proofs as different from the MS coins??
Corrections noted - thanks! Will be posted in the next iteration later this month.
The lettered v. reeded edge is an important type differentiation - thanks for noting that!
All - is it important to call out the Proofs as different from the MS coins??
my 2c.
since proofs seem to be the minority, it might not hurt to put *
* indicates prrof.
seems the least amount of work, if you do it.
you may even go on do do other notations.
**
***
.
There will be similar issues down the road, depending on how late in the day I do the post and how many Gin and Tonics have been consumed.
Please post pics to this thread that can be easily read. Is there a Doily in there somewhere?
Links to various and sundry sites create too much effort and will not be pursued.
Also my 1882 CC Morgan MS 63 DMPL (outer ring broken off) # 8190754, just got CAC certification yesterday. 27 years after slabbed. Love those Doily's and rattlers
Howard
Let me know if you see other sections that need updating.
Added totals of each type.
Revised Billet7's narrative that follows the census. If you see anything needing correction, LMK.
###!!##&&&&%%$$!!!!!
Great job on updated doily census thru 8/31/16. Just acquired 2nd doily Morgan Dollar. 1921 P MS63 #7303367.
My YouTube Channel
I noticed that in the old thread you posted to - it and other additions will be corrected in the next spreadsheet due at the end of the month.
I noticed the Doily Walker I posted on the old census is listed in this census as a Cleveland Half (SN 9142458). Does the Cleveland half with this serial number exist? Is there a photo of it that prompted the addition to this census? I hope I don't have a counterfeit!
I mentioned this a few posts ago. Since it's still in the PCGS database, it's reasonable to assume the Cleveland is still around somewhere. There was a discussion/explanation [IIRC in the old census thread] about a SNAFU whereby this mixup and some others occured. If it's not in the old thread, I have no idea how to go about searching this forum for it.
Bst transactions with: dimeman, oih82w8, mercurydimeguy, dunerlaw, Lakesammman, 2ltdjorn, MattTheRiley, dpvilla, drddm, CommemKing, Relaxn, Yorkshireman, Cucamongacoin, jtlee321, greencopper, coin22lover, coinfolio, lindedad, spummybum, Leeroybrown, flackthat, BryceM, Surfinxhi, VanHalen, astrorat, robkool, Wingsrule, PennyGuy, al410, Ilikecolor, Southcounty, Namvet69, Commemdude, oreville, Leebone
Bst transactions with: dimeman, oih82w8, mercurydimeguy, dunerlaw, Lakesammman, 2ltdjorn, MattTheRiley, dpvilla, drddm, CommemKing, Relaxn, Yorkshireman, Cucamongacoin, jtlee321, greencopper, coin22lover, coinfolio, lindedad, spummybum, Leeroybrown, flackthat, BryceM, Surfinxhi, VanHalen, astrorat, robkool, Wingsrule, PennyGuy, al410, Ilikecolor, Southcounty, Namvet69, Commemdude, oreville, Leebone