I guess I'll take a 1978 cello box if available. Doug
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming 'WOW What a Ride!' Mark Frost
Originally posted by: MantlesMantra I'm sorry but this is simply not fair. I was informed by Dave that I'm SOOL and that he waited a bunch of seconds to do his reservation (surprise it went through "on time" and he's got a slot for a box he wanted).
If we had to wait a bunch of seconds before posting our requests that should have been in the instructions in order to keep things fair.
I think this break needs to be redone so everyone can be on the same fair playing field and that the ones in the know, who are also running this break, don't get an unfair advantage.
BRIEF REPLY HERE. FURTHER DISCUSSION OF THIS (IF REQUIRED) WILL BE MOVED INTO THE QUESTIONS AND COMMENTS THREAD
EVERYONE, including myself, is on as even a playing field as possible. I posted the rules about 7 hours early. Rule #2 is:
2) Only requests time-stamped AFTER 8:59:59PM EDT Sunday August 7, 2016 will be considered valid
Running these breaks is not easy. We have a limited amount of product and a lot of people that want it. We've been doing it for a number of years now, and pretty much have it down to a reasonably well-oiled machine.
Unfortunately we cant make everyone happy, even if everyone follows the published instructions to the letter. I feel for your situation. I'm running the break and I myself am "on the bubble" for my own request (which was the point of my comment about waiting the extra seconds since I didn't know exactly when 9PM would come on the CU forum versus my own PC), but the greatest lessons from the many break we have done here over the years have been:
1 - Make the rules as unambiguous as possible
2 - In case of unexpected issues, stick to the rules as written. Once a single exception is made it removes the impartiality that is so critical to getting this done smoothly.
In this case no one, myself included, had any advantage over anyone else. And as unambiguous as I can try to make the rules, it does not solve 100% of the cases for those who do not read them fully.
We must have an explicit start time when it is first-come-first-served. We did, with a way to police it so that NO ONE had an advantage. I'm sorry that you assumed that the CU server was perfectly synchronized to your own device.
The break will not be re-started because there was no tilting of the scales in favor of anyone in this instance.
Please add a 78 cello box. If Mike and Tim are doing it I might as well.
You convinced me to do it as well...
I am always happy to encourage a fellow unopened collector.
Regarding the time stamp issue, my first post was also time stamped 8:59, but I deleted it and reposted my request again at 9:00.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Originally posted by: MantlesMantra I'm sorry but this is simply not fair. I was informed by Dave that I'm SOOL and that he waited a bunch of seconds to do his reservation (surprise it went through "on time" and he's got a slot for a box he wanted).
If we had to wait a bunch of seconds before posting our requests that should have been in the instructions in order to keep things fair.
I think this break needs to be redone so everyone can be on the same fair playing field and that the ones in the know, who are also running this break, don't get an unfair advantage.
BRIEF REPLY HERE. FURTHER DISCUSSION OF THIS (IF REQUIRED) WILL BE MOVED INTO THE QUESTIONS AND COMMENTS THREAD
EVERYONE, including myself, is on as even a playing field as possible. I posted the rules about 7 hours early. Rule #2 is:
2) Only requests time-stamped AFTER 8:59:59PM EDT Sunday August 7, 2016 will be considered valid
Running these breaks is not easy. We have a limited amount of product and a lot of people that want it. We've been doing it for a number of years now, and pretty much have it down to a reasonably well-oiled machine.
Unfortunately we cant make everyone happy, even if everyone follows the published instructions to the letter. I feel for your situation. I'm running the break and I myself am "on the bubble" for my own request (which was the point of my comment about waiting the extra seconds since I didn't know exactly when 9PM would come on the CU forum versus my own PC), but the greatest lessons from the many break we have done here over the years have been:
1 - Make the rules as unambiguous as possible
2 - In case of unexpected issues, stick to the rules as written. Once a single exception is made it removes the impartiality that is so critical to getting this done smoothly.
In this case no one, myself included, had any advantage over anyone else. And as unambiguous as I can try to make the rules, it does not solve 100% of the cases for those who do not read them fully.
We must have an explicit start time when it is first-come-first-served. We did, with a way to police it so that NO ONE had an advantage. I'm sorry that you assumed that the CU server was perfectly synchronized to your own device.
The break will not be re-started because there was no tilting of the scales in favor of anyone in this instance.
IMO this is unacceptable. Especially since there will probably never be a group break again since this product is basically gone at this point.
If there was some special technique for posting a reply, like waiting a few seconds, then that should have been made public to everyone - not kept up your sleeve so you and others would be able to cut in line while those who went by the official world time got shafted.
So according to Grote we should just reply and delete and reply until the CU time appears "correct" and matches the world time. How is that reasonable? The break should be based on something everyone can watch and reply on, just like auctions on every site that does them, not based on some arbitrary technique that only some know about.
If you know the CU clock is off then you should also know that those whose time says 8:59 are actually the ones who posted at 9:00 just as your rules said should happen.
I think the problem here is that your rules left out some very important details and that left many collectors, who didn't know the secret password like you David, at a disadvantage.
I appreciate the opportunity to take part in a group rip on CU, and I realize it's work to do it, but if you assume the responsibility then you should do it in a way that is fair. And when a problem turns up with the way you are doing things you shouldn't just say too bad that's just how it is, you should apologize for your mistake and then redo the the break so it is fair and so the rules are clearly explained at the start so everyone has a fair chance.
Not letting every collector have a fair shot when it comes to breaks like this is not good for the hobby.
I'm sorry but this is simply not fair. I was informed by Dave that I'm SOOL and that he waited a bunch of seconds to do his reservation (surprise it went through "on time" and he's got a slot for a box he wanted).
If we had to wait a bunch of seconds before posting our requests that should have been in the instructions in order to keep things fair.
I think this break needs to be redone so everyone can be on the same fair playing field and that the ones in the know, who are also running this break, don't get an unfair advantage.
BRIEF REPLY HERE. FURTHER DISCUSSION OF THIS (IF REQUIRED) WILL BE MOVED INTO THE QUESTIONS AND COMMENTS THREAD
EVERYONE, including myself, is on as even a playing field as possible. I posted the rules about 7 hours early. Rule #2 is:
2) Only requests time-stamped AFTER 8:59:59PM EDT Sunday August 7, 2016 will be considered valid
Running these breaks is not easy. We have a limited amount of product and a lot of people that want it. We've been doing it for a number of years now, and pretty much have it down to a reasonably well-oiled machine.
Unfortunately we cant make everyone happy, even if everyone follows the published instructions to the letter. I feel for your situation. I'm running the break and I myself am "on the bubble" for my own request (which was the point of my comment about waiting the extra seconds since I didn't know exactly when 9PM would come on the CU forum versus my own PC), but the greatest lessons from the many break we have done here over the years have been:
1 - Make the rules as unambiguous as possible
2 - In case of unexpected issues, stick to the rules as written. Once a single exception is made it removes the impartiality that is so critical to getting this done smoothly.
In this case no one, myself included, had any advantage over anyone else. And as unambiguous as I can try to make the rules, it does not solve 100% of the cases for those who do not read them fully.
We must have an explicit start time when it is first-come-first-served. We did, with a way to police it so that NO ONE had an advantage. I'm sorry that you assumed that the CU server was perfectly synchronized to your own device.
The break will not be re-started because there was no tilting of the scales in favor of anyone in this instance.
+1000. If you don't know what a word means, like timestamp, then look it up. There's always one. Thanks for putting this together Dave!
Actually baz518, what Dave should have written in the OP is what site to view the official time from and how many seconds to offset your reply by.
If eBay or any other places ran like this they'd run out of business. Similarly it's not good for breaks like this to be run in this loosy goosy manner.
No system is perfect, but improvements should always be welcome, as they should in this case.
Actually baz518, what Dave should have written in the OP is what site to view the official time from and how many seconds to offset your reply by.
If eBay or any other places ran like this they'd run out of business. Similarly it's not good for breaks like this to be run in this loosy goosy manner.
No system is perfect, but improvements should always be welcome, as they should in this case.
Stating an offset wouldn't solve the problem, computers can be set to any time you want. No way to ensure everyone is set at the same.
Looking to have some custom cuts or plain custom cards built? PM me.
Regarding a couple people bidding early. . .I don't have a dog in this fight, but thought I'd throw out a thought or two.
I just ran two tests on these boards 1) in the autograph section and 2) one on this board (I typed "tt").
In both instances I pulled up the World Clock on my i-phone and typed "tt" as soon as the clock struck a new minute.
In both instances, my bid showed up early on this thread. Therefore, I would agree there is a delay of 1-5 seconds. I know it must be under five seconds since I entered my bid for a 1977 was box at 8:00.05 last night and it was "OK".
So this small test, in my opinion, proves there is merit to being frustrated.
HOWEVER, I also feel it's the bidder's responsibility to review the accuracy of your bid (I believe cincy red legs was early, and then he re-bid). I recall another couple people did the same. . .
I know this break was set up with EVERY GOOD INTENTION POSSIBLE.
Actually baz518, what Dave should have written in the OP is what site to view the official time from and how many seconds to offset your reply by.
If eBay or any other places ran like this they'd run out of business. Similarly it's not good for breaks like this to be run in this loosy goosy manner.
No system is perfect, but improvements should always be welcome, as they should in this case.
No, that's not correct... timestamp is a relative term, timestamp is based on the time according to the system or process creating it. Since we're talking about a message board run by CU, the timestamp of a request would be the time CU records the message as being posted... again, no "official time" involved. I would love to see someone argue with eBay that you put in a final bid before an auction closed according to YOUR time, rather than THEIRS.
And I'm sure improvements are welcome... but probably not on the fly, in the middle of a break that is being run fairly. I've also yet to see an improvement mentioned.
I'm not participating because I'm not an unopened collector. I have followed all of this from the beginning and I would like to say that I think Dave has done an outstanding job of stating the rules and getting it all organized.
Originally posted by: DCanfield I guess I'll take a 1978 cello box if available. Doug
Like father, like son.
Hi Doug.
Hi Mike. Yes, it's alive!
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming 'WOW What a Ride!' Mark Frost
As for MM, you should have looked at the timestamp of your request. If it was too early then you needed to submit another one. There was no special technique, there were simply people that actually paid attention to the timestamp of the request they posted. You chose not to do that which means the error was on your part not the organizer nor CU. The rules were fair, were posted and are being applied evenly which is good for the hobby.
Not that it means beans to anyone, but I noticed just recently that when I post, my clock on my computer is a minute ahead of the forum timestamp. Maybe within the past month. The time used to be synced correctly.
Originally posted by: travis t Not that it means beans to anyone, but I noticed just recently that when I post, my clock on my computer is a minute ahead of the forum timestamp. Maybe within the past month. The time used to be synced correctly.
Exactly.
There's an issue with the CU clock and that should be brought to light in the OPENING POST.
Forum member Drj had earlier posted about using a web site like http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/ (I think) to gauge times based on. And then if David (or someone else) knows there's a time sync issue then that should have been indicated from the start.
Everyone knows that one's own computer clock may not be correct (unless it's synced to a server that everyone uses) that's why it's important to have a common reference like http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/
I realize these breaks are a lot of work and I'm sure much of it goes smoothly. I commend David for his efforts but the opening phase of this needs improvement. Many members here have had issues with it and it would be better for the community if it's fixed.
Unfortunately, like with many situations it's the have's vs the have nots. Those in the know and with power get a head start.
Now my only option is purchasing the FASC on eBay that costs almost double what the '79 boxes went for here and that's just messed up.
No less than 6 people posted before the suggested time, so obviously, there's an issue. The only way to prevent them from posting would be to have a device in place to block them until the suggested time arrives. Unfortunately, that can't be done here.
I don't know how this gets remedied. But, it seems sad that someone should be penalized for having the right intention, but according to one single device in the world amongst so many, that person was too early.
There is no "issue" (known or unknown) with the CU clock. To assume one's own device provides the gospel truth is erroneous and naive.
In a first-come-first-served situation like this we need an easily verifiable method of establishing an unambiguous start time that cannot be influenced to anyone's advantage. Since none of us has any influence over the CU server, and since its hosts the message board we use, it is the logical choice.
The rules were publishing in advance and were clear. Timestamp had to be AFTER 8:59:59pm EDT or the request was not valid. If we start making exceptions for 8:59 then anyone who happened to get an 8:58 timestamp would be very justified in arguing that they deserve an exception too. Where does it end?
The error was yours. There is no place for any of us to check to know what time the cu forum clock is set to. And as for Travis t's comment, my laptop seems to be somewhere between 1-15 seconds ahead of the cu forum clocks. Yours is about a minute different. I am sure that each of us would report a difference in either side of whatever the clock actually says here. This isn't a synchronized military operation.
As I said in my initial reply, I sympathize with your situation but we stick to the published rules. Next time we will add the rather obvious and redundant MM warning that your device may not be in synch with the cu forum clock, so be sure that you don't submit an invalid request.
Dave, I think the point MM is making, and it's a valid one, is that there are central online clocks that can be referenced and are consistent worldwide no matter what computer or device you are on.
That and a little guidance as to the lag in the CU clock and you would make a lot of people a lot more happy.
I think your lack of understanding here might be what's rubbing some, like MM, the wrong way.
Originally posted by: doubledent Dave, I think the point MM is making, and it's a valid one, is that there are central online clocks that can be referenced and are consistent worldwide no matter what computer or device you are on.
That and a little guidance as to the lag in the CU clock and you would make a lot of people a lot more happy.
I think your lack of understanding here might be what's rubbing some, like MM, the wrong way.
I have stated more than once that I can sympathize with his situation. However, cu does not have central online clocking integrated into their message boards and we, as users, have very little control over the functionality they choose the provide. And as for blocking posts until a certain time is reached, that is not part of the functionality of the cu forum (nor should it be). We choose to use this board for this purpose and have to live within the capabilities it provides for us.
We've done many breaks here very successfully over the years. We've also had a few that left a bad taste in a majority of the community's mouths. The bad ones usually boiled down to 1 of 2 issues:
A) organized and started quickly so that many people did not even get a chance before everything was gone
organizers reserved priority for themselves so that less was available on first-come-first-served basis
The common denominator of both of these issues is that we have limited supply and excess demand.
If we interpreted the timestamp rule "loosely" then those who had 9:00 timestamps on their requests would be justified to complain that they followed the rules and were disadvantaged by those who have timestamps prior to 9:00 that were allowed to stand.
We also cannot control the speed at which peoples' internet service responds. Does that mean we should put done warning into the rules about possible latency, or is it reasonable to assume that everyone understands that this is something that none of us control and just have to live with?
If someone wants to come up with a way that we can easily bring in an outside timestamp from a central clocking site and include it with our posts I am all for it. As long as it doesn't make the process significantly more cumbersome nor require additional support from CU I think our community would be supportive
I think MM already told you how to fix things and you should listen. I would also vote for redoing the break with the clearer rules so everyone can be happy.
Shouldn't this discussion be moved to the other thread? All I will say is read fergie's (Robb)post above. That's all that needs to be said. All that needed to be applied to follow the rules is common sense.
Originally posted by: travis t No less than 6 people posted before the suggested time, so obviously, there's an issue. The only way to prevent them from posting would be to have a device in place to block them until the suggested time arrives. Unfortunately, that can't be done here.
I don't know how this gets remedied. But, it seems sad that someone should be penalized for having the right intention, but according to one single device in the world amongst so many, that person was too early.
I appreciate the support Travis. The way this gets remedied is exactly as it would in any other situation where the instructions were incomplete or something else is wrong, it's restarted.
Doubledent, thank you too. I guess what also gets me is that this was really the only way I could afford to purchase one of these boxes. So I did my best to signup first. Sucks that because I didn't know about the CU lag that I get penalized. And to add insult to injury the OP gets his box and I doesn't even put me in the 4th position spot even though I reposted after 9 PM during the "correct" time. Hopefully, at least this will be fixed (I did PM him about it but got no response).
Oh well, guess this poor collector is out of luck. You all enjoy your packs and boxes, the chances of a break like this happening again are probably zero.
I think MM already told you how to fix things and you should listen. I would also vote for redoing the break with the clearer rules so everyone can be happy.
Thanks.
I appreciate Dave putting this together and it requires a ton of work to do one of these. If a few people are going to complain about time stamps and being unfair and asking for a redo that is their prerogative. When people like Dave don't coordinate these any more and people wonder why that will be his prerogative. This is a perk and not a right, so stamping ones feet and holding your breath like a kid outside of Toys R Us is not going to help - no matter how many times you keep asking.
FYI - I don't have a box or pack request in so don't have a dog in the fight as of now, so I have nothing to benefit. This was just like the 1980's case break where some got dinged boxes and some were pristine - it is unfortunate but it happens. If that is the worst thing going on for you I would say you were pretty fortunate.
That's a great price on the 79 Rack Box FASC. Awesome piece to own. Any photo of the condition of the case they came out of? Would hate to see another 1980 Topps Box FASC fiasco.
Kiss me once, shame on you. Kiss me twice.....let's party.
Are these boxes getting the BBCE serial number sticker? If so, it would be nice to know who got which serial number, and if the box shows up for auction relatively quickly, to block that flipper from any potential future group breaks.
For all the new guys that don't know me, I ran the group breaks for 2+ years and for a while we had them on a monthly basis until the prices skyrocked to the point where it wasn't feasible. We had a few issues but nothing that didn't get handled. We had I know one or maybe two people that always complained (not pointing the finger at you MM). Overall, when Mike ran the breaks then me then Dave, 99.9% of the people had no issue. There will be more group breaks........there always will be. Just now, it's not as frequent as it used to be.
Concerning the time stamp/date stamp/hanging chad or whatever you want to call it. It's a learning lesson. I don't remember that happening before but it may have. From now on, just post a 15 seconds afterward and if it shows up as early, copy what you want and post again.
Trust me, this is a lot of work. When I ran them I reserved what I wanted just like everybody else. There were times I didn't get something I wanted because I got beat out i.e 76 cello box with stars showing on front that sold out in ELEVEN SECONDS (still a record).
MM - I would just lick your wounds and wait for the next break AND there will be another one where you will have a chance to get a box. I know you are disappointed but there are two ways to handle it. You can just accept it and let it go or you can complain how it's not fair and there is some back room deal going on (trust me, I have heard the same thing and I promise you there isn't). I prefer the first.
Now, enough talking and let's sell this thing out.
Mark, there are others who have spoken up who had issue with this and it's easily remedied. As for future breaks like this I'm afraid I don't share your optimism seeing how little there is left out there.
Aside from the timing issue Dave also didn't put me down to be, at least 4th, in line for the box. If you look at the replies my second reply came after 9 PM but before the person who is currently at #4.
So like most of us, you sit in front of the cpu for 10 minutes watching the clock, knowing you need to wait til 6. Your want list is typed and at the stroke of 6 you submit. I tend to reread my posts one they hit, especially on something like this. A few extra seconds to take note, as Tim did, saves a lot of headache. Then once you did notice you PM Dave, instead of just setting a new request. Only later do you update the thread. Maybe lost 10-15 minutes.
The one thing I do agree with, is that that post should have legitimized the first and put you 4th in line(or whatever).
As for redoing the break, I think that would simply penalize those that did follow rules to appease those few that didn't, or intended to, but didn't double check.
It's a bummer.
52-90 All Sports, Mostly Topps, Mostly HOF, and some assorted wax.
Originally posted by: dennis07 IF I would have been interested in an item I think after reading the 9:00 pm est time stamp rule I would have made a "practice" post somewhere on the forum to see how my time and the CU time synced up. If I would have lost out on something because I didn't follow the rules as posted I would beat myself up a little instead of taking it out on the poster of the rules. But maybe that's just me.
Comments
2-- 1978 topps cello packs
1---1978 Topps Rack pack
1---1979 Topps Rack pack
Thanks,
1 box of 1978 cello please.
Thanks, Joe
2 packs of 78 Cello
2 packs of 78 Racks
and one box of 78 Cello
Unopened Boxes, Packs, Cards, and Tickets
Just send me a PM or email me for discount off eBay pricing. Thanks
I'm sorry but this is simply not fair. I was informed by Dave that I'm SOOL and that he waited a bunch of seconds to do his reservation (surprise it went through "on time" and he's got a slot for a box he wanted).
If we had to wait a bunch of seconds before posting our requests that should have been in the instructions in order to keep things fair.
I think this break needs to be redone so everyone can be on the same fair playing field and that the ones in the know, who are also running this break, don't get an unfair advantage.
BRIEF REPLY HERE. FURTHER DISCUSSION OF THIS (IF REQUIRED) WILL BE MOVED INTO THE QUESTIONS AND COMMENTS THREAD
EVERYONE, including myself, is on as even a playing field as possible. I posted the rules about 7 hours early. Rule #2 is:
2) Only requests time-stamped AFTER 8:59:59PM EDT Sunday August 7, 2016 will be considered valid
Running these breaks is not easy. We have a limited amount of product and a lot of people that want it. We've been doing it for a number of years now, and pretty much have it down to a reasonably well-oiled machine.
Unfortunately we cant make everyone happy, even if everyone follows the published instructions to the letter. I feel for your situation. I'm running the break and I myself am "on the bubble" for my own request (which was the point of my comment about waiting the extra seconds since I didn't know exactly when 9PM would come on the CU forum versus my own PC), but the greatest lessons from the many break we have done here over the years have been:
1 - Make the rules as unambiguous as possible
2 - In case of unexpected issues, stick to the rules as written. Once a single exception is made it removes the impartiality that is so critical to getting this done smoothly.
In this case no one, myself included, had any advantage over anyone else. And as unambiguous as I can try to make the rules, it does not solve 100% of the cases for those who do not read them fully.
We must have an explicit start time when it is first-come-first-served. We did, with a way to police it so that NO ONE had an advantage. I'm sorry that you assumed that the CU server was perfectly synchronized to your own device.
The break will not be re-started because there was no tilting of the scales in favor of anyone in this instance.
Dave
I guess I'll take a 1978 cello box if available. Doug
Like father, like son.
Hi Doug.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
Please add a 78 cello box. If Mike and Tim are doing it I might as well.
You convinced me to do it as well...
Thanks
Chris
Please add a 78 cello box. If Mike and Tim are doing it I might as well.
You convinced me to do it as well...
I am always happy to encourage a fellow unopened collector.
Regarding the time stamp issue, my first post was also time stamped 8:59, but I deleted it and reposted my request again at 9:00.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Please add a 78 cello box. If Mike and Tim are doing it I might as well.
You convinced me to do it as well...
You're welcome.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
Please add a 78 cello box. If Mike and Tim are doing it I might as well.
You convinced me to do it as well...
You're welcome.
Well, if Mike, Tim, and Steve all did it...then I had to join the party
2 - 1979 Topps rack packs
Thank you!
Brian
Thanks.
Thanks.
I'm sorry but this is simply not fair. I was informed by Dave that I'm SOOL and that he waited a bunch of seconds to do his reservation (surprise it went through "on time" and he's got a slot for a box he wanted).
If we had to wait a bunch of seconds before posting our requests that should have been in the instructions in order to keep things fair.
I think this break needs to be redone so everyone can be on the same fair playing field and that the ones in the know, who are also running this break, don't get an unfair advantage.
BRIEF REPLY HERE. FURTHER DISCUSSION OF THIS (IF REQUIRED) WILL BE MOVED INTO THE QUESTIONS AND COMMENTS THREAD
EVERYONE, including myself, is on as even a playing field as possible. I posted the rules about 7 hours early. Rule #2 is:
2) Only requests time-stamped AFTER 8:59:59PM EDT Sunday August 7, 2016 will be considered valid
Running these breaks is not easy. We have a limited amount of product and a lot of people that want it. We've been doing it for a number of years now, and pretty much have it down to a reasonably well-oiled machine.
Unfortunately we cant make everyone happy, even if everyone follows the published instructions to the letter. I feel for your situation. I'm running the break and I myself am "on the bubble" for my own request (which was the point of my comment about waiting the extra seconds since I didn't know exactly when 9PM would come on the CU forum versus my own PC), but the greatest lessons from the many break we have done here over the years have been:
1 - Make the rules as unambiguous as possible
2 - In case of unexpected issues, stick to the rules as written. Once a single exception is made it removes the impartiality that is so critical to getting this done smoothly.
In this case no one, myself included, had any advantage over anyone else. And as unambiguous as I can try to make the rules, it does not solve 100% of the cases for those who do not read them fully.
We must have an explicit start time when it is first-come-first-served. We did, with a way to police it so that NO ONE had an advantage. I'm sorry that you assumed that the CU server was perfectly synchronized to your own device.
The break will not be re-started because there was no tilting of the scales in favor of anyone in this instance.
IMO this is unacceptable. Especially since there will probably never be a group break again since this product is basically gone at this point.
If there was some special technique for posting a reply, like waiting a few seconds, then that should have been made public to everyone - not kept up your sleeve so you and others would be able to cut in line while those who went by the official world time got shafted.
So according to Grote we should just reply and delete and reply until the CU time appears "correct" and matches the world time. How is that reasonable? The break should be based on something everyone can watch and reply on, just like auctions on every site that does them, not based on some arbitrary technique that only some know about.
If you know the CU clock is off then you should also know that those whose time says 8:59 are actually the ones who posted at 9:00 just as your rules said should happen.
I think the problem here is that your rules left out some very important details and that left many collectors, who didn't know the secret password like you David, at a disadvantage.
I appreciate the opportunity to take part in a group rip on CU, and I realize it's work to do it, but if you assume the responsibility then you should do it in a way that is fair. And when a problem turns up with the way you are doing things you shouldn't just say too bad that's just how it is, you should apologize for your mistake and then redo the the break so it is fair and so the rules are clearly explained at the start so everyone has a fair chance.
Not letting every collector have a fair shot when it comes to breaks like this is not good for the hobby.
I'm sorry but this is simply not fair. I was informed by Dave that I'm SOOL and that he waited a bunch of seconds to do his reservation (surprise it went through "on time" and he's got a slot for a box he wanted).
If we had to wait a bunch of seconds before posting our requests that should have been in the instructions in order to keep things fair.
I think this break needs to be redone so everyone can be on the same fair playing field and that the ones in the know, who are also running this break, don't get an unfair advantage.
BRIEF REPLY HERE. FURTHER DISCUSSION OF THIS (IF REQUIRED) WILL BE MOVED INTO THE QUESTIONS AND COMMENTS THREAD
EVERYONE, including myself, is on as even a playing field as possible. I posted the rules about 7 hours early. Rule #2 is:
2) Only requests time-stamped AFTER 8:59:59PM EDT Sunday August 7, 2016 will be considered valid
Running these breaks is not easy. We have a limited amount of product and a lot of people that want it. We've been doing it for a number of years now, and pretty much have it down to a reasonably well-oiled machine.
Unfortunately we cant make everyone happy, even if everyone follows the published instructions to the letter. I feel for your situation. I'm running the break and I myself am "on the bubble" for my own request (which was the point of my comment about waiting the extra seconds since I didn't know exactly when 9PM would come on the CU forum versus my own PC), but the greatest lessons from the many break we have done here over the years have been:
1 - Make the rules as unambiguous as possible
2 - In case of unexpected issues, stick to the rules as written. Once a single exception is made it removes the impartiality that is so critical to getting this done smoothly.
In this case no one, myself included, had any advantage over anyone else. And as unambiguous as I can try to make the rules, it does not solve 100% of the cases for those who do not read them fully.
We must have an explicit start time when it is first-come-first-served. We did, with a way to police it so that NO ONE had an advantage. I'm sorry that you assumed that the CU server was perfectly synchronized to your own device.
The break will not be re-started because there was no tilting of the scales in favor of anyone in this instance.
+1000. If you don't know what a word means, like timestamp, then look it up. There's always one. Thanks for putting this together Dave!
1979 Rack Packs from a Sealed Case - $108.34/rack
Thanks,
David (LD_Ferg)
1985 Topps Football (starting in psa 8) - #9 - started 05/21/06
If eBay or any other places ran like this they'd run out of business. Similarly it's not good for breaks like this to be run in this loosy goosy manner.
No system is perfect, but improvements should always be welcome, as they should in this case.
Actually baz518, what Dave should have written in the OP is what site to view the official time from and how many seconds to offset your reply by.
If eBay or any other places ran like this they'd run out of business. Similarly it's not good for breaks like this to be run in this loosy goosy manner.
No system is perfect, but improvements should always be welcome, as they should in this case.
Stating an offset wouldn't solve the problem, computers can be set to any time you want. No way to ensure everyone is set at the same.
Commissions
Check out my Facebook page
thanks for arranging!
Balco758 (Steve)
I just ran two tests on these boards 1) in the autograph section and 2) one on this board (I typed "tt").
In both instances I pulled up the World Clock on my i-phone and typed "tt" as soon as the clock struck a new minute.
In both instances, my bid showed up early on this thread. Therefore, I would agree there is a delay of 1-5 seconds. I know it must be under five seconds since I entered my bid for a 1977 was box at 8:00.05 last night and it was "OK".
So this small test, in my opinion, proves there is merit to being frustrated.
HOWEVER, I also feel it's the bidder's responsibility to review the accuracy of your bid (I believe cincy red legs was early, and then he re-bid). I recall another couple people did the same. . .
I know this break was set up with EVERY GOOD INTENTION POSSIBLE.
Actually baz518, what Dave should have written in the OP is what site to view the official time from and how many seconds to offset your reply by.
If eBay or any other places ran like this they'd run out of business. Similarly it's not good for breaks like this to be run in this loosy goosy manner.
No system is perfect, but improvements should always be welcome, as they should in this case.
No, that's not correct... timestamp is a relative term, timestamp is based on the time according to the system or process creating it. Since we're talking about a message board run by CU, the timestamp of a request would be the time CU records the message as being posted... again, no "official time" involved. I would love to see someone argue with eBay that you put in a final bid before an auction closed according to YOUR time, rather than THEIRS.
And I'm sure improvements are welcome... but probably not on the fly, in the middle of a break that is being run fairly. I've also yet to see an improvement mentioned.
I guess I'll take a 1978 cello box if available. Doug
Like father, like son.
Hi Doug.
Hi Mike. Yes, it's alive!
(2) 1978 rack packs
(2) 1979 rack packs
As for MM, you should have looked at the timestamp of your request. If it was too early then you needed to submit another one. There was no special technique, there were simply people that actually paid attention to the timestamp of the request they posted. You chose not to do that which means the error was on your part not the organizer nor CU. The rules were fair, were posted and are being applied evenly which is good for the hobby.
Robb
Not that it means beans to anyone, but I noticed just recently that when I post, my clock on my computer is a minute ahead of the forum timestamp. Maybe within the past month. The time used to be synced correctly.
Exactly.
There's an issue with the CU clock and that should be brought to light in the OPENING POST.
Forum member Drj had earlier posted about using a web site like http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/ (I think) to gauge times based on. And then if David (or someone else) knows there's a time sync issue then that should have been indicated from the start.
Everyone knows that one's own computer clock may not be correct (unless it's synced to a server that everyone uses) that's why it's important to have a common reference like http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/
I realize these breaks are a lot
of work and I'm sure much of it goes smoothly. I commend David for his efforts but the opening phase of this needs improvement. Many members here have had issues with it and it would be better for the community if it's fixed.
Unfortunately, like with many situations it's the have's vs the have nots. Those in the know and with power get a head start.
Now my only option is purchasing the FASC on eBay that costs almost double what the '79 boxes went for here and that's just messed up.
I don't know how this gets remedied. But, it seems sad that someone should be penalized for having the right intention, but according to one single device in the world amongst so many, that person was too early.
I'd like:
1 1979 Rack Box
2 1977 Wax Packs
2 1978 Rack Packs
2 1978 Cello Packs
2 1979 Rack Packs (with holders)
Thanks for setting this up!
In a first-come-first-served situation like this we need an easily verifiable method of establishing an unambiguous start time that cannot be influenced to anyone's advantage. Since none of us has any influence over the CU server, and since its hosts the message board we use, it is the logical choice.
The rules were publishing in advance and were clear. Timestamp had to be AFTER 8:59:59pm EDT or the request was not valid. If we start making exceptions for 8:59 then anyone who happened to get an 8:58 timestamp would be very justified in arguing that they deserve an exception too. Where does it end?
The error was yours. There is no place for any of us to check to know what time the cu forum clock is set to. And as for Travis t's comment, my laptop seems to be somewhere between 1-15 seconds ahead of the cu forum clocks. Yours is about a minute different. I am sure that each of us would report a difference in either side of whatever the clock actually says here. This isn't a synchronized military operation.
As I said in my initial reply, I sympathize with your situation but we stick to the published rules. Next time we will add the rather obvious and redundant MM warning that your device may not be in synch with the cu forum clock, so be sure that you don't submit an invalid request.
Dave
That and a little guidance as to the lag in the CU clock and you would make a lot of people a lot more happy.
I think your lack of understanding here might be what's rubbing some, like MM, the wrong way.
Dave, I think the point MM is making, and it's a valid one, is that there are central online clocks that can be referenced and are consistent worldwide no matter what computer or device you are on.
That and a little guidance as to the lag in the CU clock and you would make a lot of people a lot more happy.
I think your lack of understanding here might be what's rubbing some, like MM, the wrong way.
I have stated more than once that I can sympathize with his situation. However, cu does not have central online clocking integrated into their message boards and we, as users, have very little control over the functionality they choose the provide. And as for blocking posts until a certain time is reached, that is not part of the functionality of the cu forum (nor should it be). We choose to use this board for this purpose and have to live within the capabilities it provides for us.
We've done many breaks here very successfully over the years. We've also had a few that left a bad taste in a majority of the community's mouths. The bad ones usually boiled down to 1 of 2 issues:
A) organized and started quickly so that many people did not even get a chance before everything was gone
The common denominator of both of these issues is that we have limited supply and excess demand.
If we interpreted the timestamp rule "loosely" then those who had 9:00 timestamps on their requests would be justified to complain that they followed the rules and were disadvantaged by those who have timestamps prior to 9:00 that were allowed to stand.
We also cannot control the speed at which peoples' internet service responds. Does that mean we should put done warning into the rules about possible latency, or is it reasonable to assume that everyone understands that this is something that none of us control and just have to live with?
If someone wants to come up with a way that we can easily bring in an outside timestamp from a central clocking site and include it with our posts I am all for it. As long as it doesn't make the process significantly more cumbersome nor require additional support from CU I think our community would be supportive
Dave
I think MM already told you how to fix things and you should listen. I would also vote for redoing the break with the clearer rules so everyone can be happy.
Thanks.
All I will say is read fergie's (Robb)post above. That's all that needs to be said.
All that needed to be applied to follow the rules is common sense.
No less than 6 people posted before the suggested time, so obviously, there's an issue. The only way to prevent them from posting would be to have a device in place to block them until the suggested time arrives. Unfortunately, that can't be done here.
I don't know how this gets remedied. But, it seems sad that someone should be penalized for having the right intention, but according to one single device in the world amongst so many, that person was too early.
I appreciate the support Travis. The way this gets remedied is exactly as it would in any other situation where the instructions were incomplete or something else is wrong, it's restarted.
Doubledent, thank you too. I guess what also gets me is that this was really the only way I could afford to purchase one of these boxes. So I did my best to signup first. Sucks that because I didn't know about the CU lag that I get penalized. And to add insult to injury the OP gets his box and I doesn't even put me in the 4th position spot even though I reposted after 9 PM during the "correct" time. Hopefully, at least this will be fixed (I did PM him about it but got no response).
Oh well, guess this poor collector is out of luck. You all enjoy your packs and boxes, the chances of a break like this happening again are probably zero.
Dave,
I think MM already told you how to fix things and you should listen. I would also vote for redoing the break with the clearer rules so everyone can be happy.
Thanks.
I appreciate Dave putting this together and it requires a ton of work to do one of these. If a few people are going to complain about time stamps and being unfair and asking for a redo that is their prerogative. When people like Dave don't coordinate these any more and people wonder why that will be his prerogative. This is a perk and not a right, so stamping ones feet and holding your breath like a kid outside of Toys R Us is not going to help - no matter how many times you keep asking.
FYI - I don't have a box or pack request in so don't have a dog in the fight as of now, so I have nothing to benefit. This was just like the 1980's case break where some got dinged boxes and some were pristine - it is unfortunate but it happens. If that is the worst thing going on for you I would say you were pretty fortunate.
KC
Kiss me twice.....let's party.
1 1978 Rack
Please and Thank You !
Concerning the time stamp/date stamp/hanging chad or whatever you want to call it. It's a learning lesson. I don't remember that happening before but it may have. From now on, just post a 15 seconds afterward and if it shows up as early, copy what you want and post again.
Trust me, this is a lot of work. When I ran them I reserved what I wanted just like everybody else. There were times I didn't get something I wanted because I got beat out i.e 76 cello box with stars showing on front that sold out in ELEVEN SECONDS (still a record).
MM - I would just lick your wounds and wait for the next break AND there will be another one where you will have a chance to get a box. I know you are disappointed but there are two ways to handle it. You can just accept it and let it go or you can complain how it's not fair and there is some back room deal going on (trust me, I have heard the same thing and I promise you there isn't). I prefer the first.
Now, enough talking and let's sell this thing out.
Mark
T206 Set - 300/524
Aside from the timing issue Dave also didn't put me down to be, at least 4th, in line for the box. If you look at the replies my second reply came after 9 PM but before the person who is currently at #4.
What's up with that?
The one thing I do agree with, is that that post should have legitimized the first and put you 4th in line(or whatever).
As for redoing the break, I think that would simply penalize those that did follow rules to appease those few that didn't, or intended to, but didn't double check.
It's a bummer.
IF I would have been interested in an item I think after reading the 9:00 pm est time stamp rule I would have made a "practice" post somewhere on the forum to see how my time and the CU
time synced up. If I would have lost out on something because I didn't follow the rules as posted I would beat myself up a little instead of taking it out on the poster of the rules. But maybe that's just me.
^^This