Why are so Many 19th Century-Dated Gold Issues so Rare with Original Color and Choice Surfaces?

Boosibri

From Doug Winter. Brings some great perspective to the rare gold market and the origins of the surviving populations as we know them.



DWN Article

msch1man

Great article with a lot of good info!

Coinosaurus

On target as always.

PaleElf

Nice read

ElmerFusterpuck

I don't collect those series save for the stray type coin, but he is spot on. You could probably apply most of his logic to other 19th century coinage as well like the Seated series, large cents and others.

BillJones

I once saw a 1796 No Stars quarter eagle that was in an AU-50 holder was original and very nice. It was cracked out, cleaned and sent in for grading. The now cleaned coin, which looked awful, got an AU-58 grade which that coin is quite significant price wise.

There have been financial incentives for making coins bright and shiny.

TomB

I haven't read the article yet, but the answer I would give is-



"Money, and the chasing of it."

Boosibri

Originally posted by: TomB

I haven't read the article yet, but the answer I would give is-



"Money, and the chasing of it."

uhhh yep.

Yorkshireman

I really enjoyed that article too.



To whom was he referring that ruined so many coins? Dare someone say?

TopographicOceans

Need to look for 1988 PCGS gold

coinkat

Concerns surrounding the survival of original early no motto gold have been posted here dating back well over 10 years. Maybe its time for some of these threads to surface again. Suggestions were made then- no one listened or wanted to do anything to encourage the original surviving population then.

There is obviously less to save now... The article is nothing new or revolutionary. And nothing will change other than perhaps the finger pointing.

Weiss

So you bought a coin a few years back. Time to sell.

You paid $8k back then. Now you could sell that coin for $12k.

Or you can dip it, resubmit it, and it'll bring $20k on a bad day. Maybe $25k.

Now I would never dip it and sell it. I could never destroy that thin film of originality in pursuit of the almighty dollar.

I'm merely a custodian of these pieces that make up the fiber of our American history. I'd never even consider it. What's $10,000 to me when we're talking about our national identity?

...




But would you? And are you being sincere in your answer? What if it was a $30k windfall? Or $50,000?

It won't be your coin anymore. The second it leaves your hands it's someone else's problem. After all: It's what the market wants. It's what the dealers want. It's what the collectors want.

coinkat

The so-called market is not helped by those that think they know what it wants...

And I should stop there.

Gazes

Great article. For those who list pros and cons about cac --notice that Doug gives cac some credit for slowing down the ruining of original coins

Baley

Agree with everything in the article, except think the word "ruined", used twice,

is too strong a word, too absolute, for what happened to the coins.



It would be nice if original surfaces had been valued as highly then as they are now,

but the coins are worth less, not worthless.

topstuf

I've always wondered if there is a grading service that PREFERS scrubbed, washed out gold.

roadrunner

....It won't be your coin anymore. The second it leaves your hands it's someone else's problem. After all: It's what the market wants. It's what the dealers want. It's what the collectors want.

It's not what the "market" wants. The market is much larger than some arbitragers. The upgraders/crack out artists see the potential profit. And as long as they know that eventually a TPG will reward their efforts, they'll do it. This is a small percentage of the market.



I owned one of the most stunning O mint MS64 quarters of any date (this was an 1856-0). I felt it was very worthy of a 65 grade. 5 consecutive MS64's from both services and I threw in the towel. The coin was sold off and within a very short time ended up with an arbitrager. It found the dip and putty and became a "ruined" MS65 the "easy" way. Possibly the world's best MS64 1856-0 had disappeared from the market. No doubt this same scenario plays out in the 19th gold market as well.

DDR

I don't collect rare date gold, but this was an excellent, informative article. Thanks for posting.

scubafuel

Ruined is pretty harsh.
The question is, when "dirty" finally becomes worth as much more as "clean" was 15-20 years ago, how tough will it be for enterprising people to dirty up the gold attractively? My guess is that it won't be too tough, and not nearly as hard as silver, because gold doesn't really tone. As long as it hasn't been scrubbed or abraded, a gold coin really just needs a nice grimy layer reapplied.

10 years from now, instead of AT, we'll be debating AG (grime). And the numismatic wheel continues to turn...

jwitten

I haven't read the article yet, but gotta comment. They guy that bought a D mint gold a little while ago, asked yall about it, then decided to return it after everyone talked bad about it is now not able to return it. Someone on the board contacted the seller and convinced him the reputation of the coin was ruined, and he could not sell it for as much now. I do not think that is a good thing at all, and think the seller needs to honor the return. The guy on the board was just asking opinions, and those opinions helped him know to look for a different look. I think it is a shame someone convinced the seller to not honor his return policy, in my honest opinion.

jonruns

Great and timely article....a couple of questions from this newbie...

1. Are there certain grades that are most affected...it would seem to me the most financial gain would be had by getting coins that were 50 or higher up a couple of notches...that the lower collector grades would be less apt to be cracked out...

2. As the appreciation for coins with original surfaces continues to increase....do you think that CAC'd coins will be worth a greater premium that they currently are...and conversely will the value of high grade cleaned coins to be worth less...what about a rare date like the 1838-C $5 where almost all the high grade coins have been cleaned...will things reverse to the point where a 1838-C AU55 with original skin is worth more than a cleaned AU58??

3. At this point...what percentage of old gold coins do you think have been sent to CAC?


And since we need a picture for this thread...just got this one in the mail today from DW:


[URL=http://s1219.photobucket.com/user/jonruns/media/1861s_5_P10_CAC_zpspmeacodh.jpg.html][/URL]

HandH

Very good article by Doug. While the subject might not be anything new or revolutionary, it certainly is a reminder of our responsibility as custodians of the few remaining original skinned gold coins that are so important to our history.

Weiss

I've mentioned how I lucked into NOT cleaning this piece before I sent it ATS.

Bot it raw from my dealer moments after it came in. I didn't know the series, didn't understand the scarcity of C or D mint gold, and was just barely aware of the Original Surfaces movement™.

For some reason, I decided to send this piece in without dipping, acetone, or even a wash of water. Was hoping it would come back straight graded. My jaw hit the floor when I got the grade...

HandH

Nice 61-S half eagle, jonruns.

ranshdow

Originally posted by: scubafuel

The question is, when "dirty" finally becomes worth as much more as "clean" was 15-20 years ago, how tough will it be for enterprising people to dirty up the gold attractively? My guess is that it won't be too tough, and not nearly as hard as silver, because gold doesn't really tone. As long as it hasn't been scrubbed or abraded, a gold coin really just needs a nice grimy layer reapplied.

It's already happening. There are a couple of looks, I call one the "chewing tobacco rub" look, and the other the "bootblack" look, that raise a flag with me. Unfortunately, I do not have pictures to share, but I can describe. IMO, S-mint quarter eagles are notorious for these.

The chewing tobacco look can include tan to brown crust somewhat unevenly distributed at the interfaces of the fields and devices, and can also include slick, shiny brown application to areas of the devices with a hit or scratch beneath. Use your judgement. If it looks a little too uneven or the gunk looks too well placed to be true, it might be too good to be true.

The bootblack or black wax look is a little more obvious. It tends to be very unevenly embedded in areas of the devices with fine detail, like the shield lines on the reverse of gold eagles, and tends to be shiny. Even dull material, if unevenly applied, is suspicious.

Natural patina tends to have both a surprising evenness and balance across the surface of the coin and tends to taper for quite a distance, IMO.

(I've edited this for clarity.)

oldlinecoins

Originally posted by: scubafuel

Ruined is pretty harsh.

The question is, when "dirty" finally becomes worth as much more as "clean" was 15-20 years ago, how tough will it be for enterprising people to dirty up the gold attractively? My guess is that it won't be too tough, and not nearly as hard as silver, because gold doesn't really tone. As long as it hasn't been scrubbed or abraded, a gold coin really just needs a nice grimy layer reapplied.



10 years from now, instead of AT, we'll be debating AG (grime). And the numismatic wheel continues to turn...

Luckily, I don't think this will be the case. I think that's the beauty a lot of people see in original coins. Once the original patina is gone it is gone for good.

ricko

Interesting article... and I believe 'artificial griming' is already being applied in the gold coin arena..I am a fan of dirty gold (actually, I like all gold...my favorite coin material)..and for me, it has become a challenge to evaluate the surface of gold coins. I do not sell coins, but I do buy them. Much like I devoted years to studying artificial tarnish, I have now (for the last two years) been interested in the griming of the gold. At some point, I will post a bit on what I have found.

Cheers, RickO

JJSingleton

I can't really find anything to dispute in this article.



And Weiss, that's a fine looking 51-C Dollar. Glad you didn't dip it.

OnlyGoldIsMoney

Excellent article.

Here is one that escaped the dippers.

Gazes

Originally posted by: OnlyGoldIsMoney

Excellent article.



Here is one that escaped the dippers.

Great collection you have. Have you decided only to collect coins that get stickered ?

OnlyGoldIsMoney

Originally posted by: Gazes

Originally posted by: OnlyGoldIsMoney
Excellent article.

Here is one that escaped the dippers.

Great collection you have. Have you decided only to collect coins that get stickered ?

Thanks Gazes. Yes, my goal is all PCGS/CAC.

Boosibri

A few unmeasured with coins

Analyst

Doug Winter in the article cited by BoosiBri: "The rise of third-party grading ca. 1986-1987 had a tremendous impact on all facets of the rare coin market; many good, some not-so-good. The graders who were hired were nearly all world-class but most of them had a background in big, shiny coins such as Walking Liberty half dollars, Morgan and Peace dollars, and St. Gaudens double eagles. With few exceptions, many of these graders had literally never handled a Charlotte quarter eagle or a No Motto New Orleans eagle, and they had to learn how to grade these coins on the fly."

Although this is a brilliant and extremely important statement, it is unfair to JA. In the early days of NGC (and not today), deeply toned coins that were very much original tended to receive higher grades from NGC than the same coins would receive from PCGS. Nonetheless, Doug puts forth terrific points in this paragraph and in the whole article that is referenced in the top post.

PCGS turned to be far more successful than most coin business people ever imagined that it would be. At first, it seemed that the thrust, as Doug suggests, was to grade dipped Morgans, Walkers and Saints, most of which were eventually marketed to the general public, not to sophisticated coin collectors. As years passed, most sophisticated coin collectors became accepting of PCGS certified coins.

Even so, I really believe that most obviously dipped coins are marketed to the general public or to beginners. There is a cultural undercurrent of assigning high grades to artificially brightened coins than most of the same coins would receive if they were deeply toned. This trend was hardened by applying telemarketing style grading of common coins to rare coins cherished by advanced collectors.

How will Coin Collectors Interpret Certified Coin Grades in the Future?

Understanding Classic U.S. Coins and Building Excellent Coin Collections, Part 2: Dipped Coins

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