Legends Hot Topic
EastonCollection
Posts: 1,591 ✭✭✭✭✭
http://www.legendnumismatics.com/hot-topics/
I read with great interest Laura's fantastic article. I share her views 100% and I have been following that advice for years.
Everyone should read her article and follow her advice. After several years of following her advise has made coin collecting more enjoyable, rewarding, exciting and reduced much stress in my daily life.
Better yet, when folks view my coins, I am getting many more compliments than ever before.
Hats off to Laura for being so honest and writing about this topic.
I read with great interest Laura's fantastic article. I share her views 100% and I have been following that advice for years.
Everyone should read her article and follow her advice. After several years of following her advise has made coin collecting more enjoyable, rewarding, exciting and reduced much stress in my daily life.
Better yet, when folks view my coins, I am getting many more compliments than ever before.
Hats off to Laura for being so honest and writing about this topic.
Easton Collection
0
Comments
Latin American Collection
Some dealers that handle numerous client bids at auctions might not be able to give you the personal service you deserve. Just raising a paddle and executing a bid is probably not worth the 5-10%.
Auctions and retail dealerships can both be one way streets. Frankly, I've seen it far more often with dealers than auctions. Unless you consistently bring back some coins for offers from your dealers, you have no idea if they will fairly buy back those same coins. If all their customers wanted to sell their coins back they wanted have a fraction of the liquidity to buy them. The majority of coins sold by dealers to retail clients for top dollar are usually not wanted back. The dealer will just not be able to pay a fair premium to a knowledgeable collector. A larger and safer margin is buying cheaper from the more unknowledgeable and then moving it. Try it with some of your dealers. I've typically been quite shocked at the low-ball to complete lack of offers when I brought coins back to some of my dealers. It's a big reason why so many coins are just sent to auction. I can certainly list numerous higher level dealers that routinely love to buy back their coins. But, I would not call that the norm. You can only find out by trying.
You don't always have to pay the premium in down markets. In fact, there were incredible buys on great coins during the down markets of 1980-1982, 1987-1988, 1991-1998, and 2009-2011. It wasn't an issue of a lack of great coins here, but people running out of money to buy the coins that were available. Even by 1986-1987 you could still buy great coins at 30c on the dollar from the spring 1980 highs. The best coin I've ever owned was from Auction '86 where numerous great coins went reasonable/cheap. Great buys on great coins were still widely available at auction even in the 2002-2003 period...7 years after the market had bottomed. I don't think that in the next strong market down cycle that those same great buys at great prices won't present themselves again for the majority of great coins. While you may not be able to buy the finest knowns, and pop 1's or 2's on the cheap in down markets, the other 95% of the market will comply. Those building the top 1-3 REG sets operate on a different plane than 99.9% of the market.
I made the decision long ago to buy and sell ONLY PCGS CAC coins with collectors. I have NO regrets what so ever. I can also factually state that collectors who did that and have held their coins-are doing very well.
CAC only for collectors is an interesting business model. It certainly limits the chances of placing a low end/under-performing coin with a customer. Though one routinely has to pay a sizable premium (10-35%) for that added insurance. If all dealers embraced this model, the majority of the slabbed coin market would probably drop by another 25-40%.
Premiums are difficult to measure as well. I won't go to auction or a show and pay multiples over retail for any coin. However, i have paid 5 to 10% premium for a coin that has very high eye appeal coin. Many best coins that I buy are from dealers.
For example, I bought a 1819 Capped Bust quarter that's graded 64. Its not CAC'd as I have yet to send it there. I did pay a premium for this coin and anyone that I show this coin to absolutely loves it. Its a really special coin. Further, its a coin with a story. This coin was part of the Norweb cabinet and when offered back then, it indicated that it could could be a proof. Walter Breen was strongly disagreed that it wasn't a proof because proofs were not made before 1820. This coin looks deep mirror prooflike with great toning. The coin has a great pedigree and a story about it. All the makings of a great coin and that is what I believe Laura is suggesting by buying the best coin you can afford.
I disagree, YOU CAN DO IT YOURSELF.
I don't think the point is that you can't do it yourself, I think it is that your results will be much better if you do it with the help of a dealer strong in your area of interest.
I realised at work a while ago that I can't reach my aspirations without others. Coin collecting is no different.
Latin American Collection
I strongly disagree!!!!!
Your results will be way better if you do it yourself.
I have heard so many stories of people buying the best from the so called best dealers and being completely underwater.
She does well at that once I can understand the "Laura Latin"
I strongly disagree!!!!!
Your results will be way better if you do it yourself.
I have heard so many stories of people buying the best from the so called best dealers and being completely underwater.
How can I have better results on coins which I never even had the chance to acquire?
I have had one dealer help me assemble my 1842 $5 Transitional varieties set. He offered to me before all others the 1842-D $5 Large Date in P55 CAC, the only CAC example other than a VF at the time.
Recently I asked a dealer who I enjoy working with to help me find an MS Pillar dollar for my type set. He found me an amazing example which I would have never have had a chance to have acquired without him.
Maybe you are speaking about error coins and that could be different. I find that the partnership is so important in this hobby.
Latin American Collection
I will say I had a very difficult time making it past the first sentence- insert U.S. before coins and then the sentence reads as I suspect she intended it to read. At least with that revision, it helps. There also comes a point when taking a higher road in terms of addressing collectors needs to make it back into her writing style.
edited to add with in the first sentence
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I am never shocked but couldn't agree more with RR. And I don't always agree with this poster.
This is fine, just know this going in sometimes. But yes there are certain dealers that love to have their coins back with a nice offer. All my opinion and experiences.
Try it with some of your dealers. I've typically been quite shocked at the low-ball to complete lack of offers when I brought coins back to some of my dealers. It's a big reason why so many coins are just sent to auction. I can certainly list numerous higher level dealers that routinely love to buy back their coins. But, I would not call that the norm. You can only find out by trying.
I am never shocked but couldn't agree more with RR. And I don't always agree with this poster.
This is fine, just know this going in sometimes. But yes there are certain dealers that love to have their coins back with a nice offer. All my opinion and experiences.
There was a thread a while back titled something like "Dealers That Buy Back Strong" where members listed their experiences with dealers that had good buy back policies.
Eye appeal and quality for a grade is very subjective - so if i like a coin and you don't it doesn't matter that you don't like the coin. However, if a coin has the WOW factor to me there is a great chance that it will WOW others and not everyone.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Sounds like to build a truly great collection, it really helps to be flush with cash and willing to spend a lot of it on coins
Not necessarily true - if you define a great set to be all high grade coins - then money helps alot. On the other hand, if you are looking for a great set a capped bust dimes in fine condition that all have high eye appeal and quality then you can assembly a date set for under $8k. This includes the 1822 and 1809 in fine 15.
Sounds like to build a truly great collection, it really helps to be flush with cash and willing to spend a lot of it on coins
Not necessarily true - if you define a great set to be all high grade coins - then money helps alot. On the other hand, if you are looking for a great set a capped bust dimes in fine condition that all have high eye appeal and quality then you can assembly a date set for under $8k. This includes the 1822 and 1809 in fine 15.
Would a set in fine condition qualify as a great set with respect to the Hot Topics articles? Laura often mentions the number of top registry sets she's helped build which imply high grade. Also, going through the Legend inventory, there appear to only be 5 non-MS coins at the moment.
My impression from the Hot Topics articles is that great implies generally high graded condition.
Sounds like to build a truly great collection, it really helps to be flush with cash and willing to spend a lot of it on coins
Not necessarily true - if you define a great set to be all high grade coins - then money helps alot. On the other hand, if you are looking for a great set a capped bust dimes in fine condition that all have high eye appeal and quality then you can assembly a date set for under $8k. This includes the 1822 and 1809 in fine 15.
Would a set in fine condition qualify as a great set with respect to the Hot Topics articles? Laura often mentions the number of top registry sets she's helped build which imply high grade. Also, going through the Legend inventory, there appear to only be 5 non-MS coins at the moment.
My impression from the Hot Topics articles is that great implies generally high graded condition.
It's a self serving article. She's not saying a great set, she's saying the BEST set.
Its not necessary to have big ticket coins to enjoy the hobby. In my view it all adds up. Don't let yourself get buried in coins you paid all the money for, especially big ticket ones (that is a huge mistake!). Seller Hype is fine for its entertainment value (or modeling how you want to market your retail material) but ignore it. Keep tabs of what the coins you buy are bringing in ebay, GC auctions, etc. What are they averaging based on TPG Market Value? Keep a spreadsheet of watches and how they do.
Strongly Disagree - Do it yourself. Its your hobby, your investment. Attend shows, take tables at shows, bid on ebay, Great Collections, etc. Learn how to look at coins. Go for the deal! Ask yourself - What can I sell this coin for from my table at a show and does this deal allow me room to make a decent profit now? Study your coins in PCGS Coin Facts........Lean how to look at coins and how to grade.
Its not necessary to have big ticket coins to enjoy the hobby. In my view it all adds up.
Sounds like it really helps to have loads of free time and energy and be willing to spend it on coins!
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Sounds like it really helps to have loads of free time and energy and be willing to spend it on coins!
Not everyone is born with a silver spoon.
I have plenty of time and energy to search.
I have a handful of dealers (5 or so) that I like and have worked with and have a good historical relationship with. I check their sites often but that is as far as I'll go---they don't actively search for me nor do they know my wants.
This cuts out the middleman and keeps me from paying some ridiculous premiums to certain dealers who did dealer to dealer trades, so that everyone is making a ton of money but me.
I also don't want dealers to feel pressured to find me coins and then offer me overpriced mediocre coins just to fill my slots and for them to make money.
I also don't like the way that she has, once again, taken sarcastic shots at us as 'chat room self-promoters', when some of us are quite knowledgeable just as some dealers can be knowledgeable, while other are not.
Also, no dealer can know my tastes as well as I do---not even close.
I do agree that the market is cyclical and holding long term is always better.
And yes, I agree that major auctions can certainly run you up, unnecessarily, and buying from a dealer CAN many times be a better alternative but not always.
Finally, I agree that a good 66 can be a lot better than a meh 68 and I would never hesitate to purchase such a coin. I'd never buy a 68, in any event, as that is at the point of diminishing returns for me---insignificant difference in quality and ENORMOUS difference in price.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Laura selling Laura.
She does well at that once I can understand the "Laura Latin"
This.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Certainly it helps to have some good dealer relationships, if nothing else but to learn from them, and perhaps occasionally acquire a coin.
And yes a dealer's time needs to be valued, and they are entitled to make money.
But to me, collecting is the thrill of the hunt. I would find it quite boring to send a want list to a couple top dealers and write them a check
every few months as a coin dribbles in. But perhaps in the trophy arena, this may be integral part of collecting.
However, while there are dealers I may like, and others I despise its all about the deal and what I am getting out of it. I have a list of dealers and auction houses I like on my business mgt tab. However these are usually bullion or auctions which I win at a percentage of what I think I can sell it for allowing me positive P&L.
One needs to take their investing seriously whether coins or otherwise and spend lots of time. In the final analysis its the individual investors job to take responsibility.
Buy what you like but recognize when it comes time to sell you will be judged by the market.
If you are very particular and/or not super versed in what distinguishes good catskin from bad catskin, searching for the very best and rarest of catskins, or happen to be very impatient and/or lazy, then getting a good catskin dealer with a wide network of suppliers and a luxury reputation is a good idea. In fact it is a necessity.
If however you are patient and willing to simply buy nice catskins that come up from local shops, you are willing to develop good relationships with other catskin collectors and you are willing to have what amounts to a conglomeration of nice catskins in multiple conditions, then you can do it on your own.
siliconvalleycoins.com
Yep, feel free to go it alone. It often comes at a steep price. For what it's worth I've made money on every single Legend coin I've sold.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
While my best coins have undoubtably come to me via trusted dealers, I like to keep my options open and pick up good coins wherever I can find them.
Sounds like it really helps to have loads of free time and energy and be willing to spend it on coins!
Not everyone is born with a silver spoon.
This is non sense. I literally didn't have two nickels to rub together until I was 35. I'm extremely prudent with every purchase I make. Sometimes paying more upfront is the best money spent.
It's no secret that Legend is one of my go to dealers as well as CRO and a few others. The great thing about forging relationships is that when you need something or something special comes up they will reach out to you. For example JK literally just reached out to me on a Libertas related item that he knows I collect. It's a hard item to get and not necessary expensive. I would have not found this on my own.
I love how when something doesn't fit their prose the class warefare card is dropped. That's crappy.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
]My take on the article was how to be a profitable dealer at collector expense. Built a large expensive collection and maybe I will cut you some slack, little fish thanks for the money
Says the landlord who takes every opportunity to tell us how many units or acres he has. Are you a non for profit?
There is a word for this.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Great article?? No.
To your comment Mark that you have always made money on Legend coins, I think that is commendable. It says good things about you as a collector and Laura as a dealer. But oftentimes we forget that market conditions, holding time and the broader economy is mostly responsible. Timing is everything and in the last 20-30 years, those in Laura's target audience, namely people like you and I, have done very well while many others have suffered.
Trees don't grow to the stratosphere and all exponential functions become unsustainable parabolas in the long run. This market is long in the tooth and the natives are restless. This latest weakness will likely not be long term low, although new highs are very possible before that happens.
John
siliconvalleycoins.com
I just hate friends getting hammered because they aren't English majors or maybe someone has an ax to grind. There is a lot of that. I personally know of nice things Laura has done for people ( non coin related) . Some for people she doesn't even like---- because it was the right thing to do. That speaks volumes to her character.
Anyways, thank you for the response
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
To the original post/subject:
i think that our two collections show that either path is a path that can lead towards success. You have primarily used dealers and yours shows it has focus with patience and multiple eyes looking for only the best.
I have primarily pieced mine together with little direction over a period of time opportunistically. All of my coins are quite wonderful, but it will take much much longer to be a "collection" as opposed to a "conglomeration".
John
siliconvalleycoins.com
I am sure that there are other dealers that couldn't care whether this collector put a nice collection or not together.
But Laura's points about - developing a good relationship with a dealer, don't always go for registry points, don't overpay for coins in auction, don't be shy about paying a premium for a coin that's going to enhance your collection and hold your coin for a long term is just good advise. Is this hot topic looking for a sale, I don't believe so but it is saying follow her advise, put a nice collection together and enjoy the ride - and maybe good things will come in the end. .
Am I the only one that walks a coin show and feels like the reason the coins still offered for sale is not because a collector hasn't come by that needs it, but that they have problems for the grade and or are priced too high? They surely would have been bought and repriced by another dealer long before I got there. Surely a shadow market exists. Maybe that why it's good to have a bird dog looking for things for you.
I don't build "date sets" anymore for several reasons, but am looking for exceptional type coins. Still looking for "the one" large cent in 65 or a "one for the ages" bust half, that will represent my entire bust half collection for example. Saving and firing my gunpowder at once for something great a few times a year. That's what gets me off in coins anymore. That and a recent circ CAM bust half in VF for 65 bucks can bring some joy. Maybe a dealer will remember me by my wallet, but hopefully by the gracious, kind and enjoyable dealing. Either way, setting up a network isn't in my gameplay right now. Way too many coins out there than my money will cover, so I'm just happy to get a break from my job now and then and pop for something cool that makes it seem worth it all.
HOWEVER, from time to time, I do find coins offered by the great dealers including Laura who has been so honest with me in advising me once in a while that her CAC stickered coin (usually a less expensive coin) is NOT right for me because she knows how tough I am with the coins I buy.
Perhaps my experience has been that I have a relatively sharp eye for grading. Not everyone is a sharp grader and I did not know for sure until I submitted my 1000 plus slabbed coins to CAC and well over 90% were stickered.
I thought Laura's advice was sound and actually not controversial being that it was just her opinion but a good one.
There is nothing wrong with building relationships with dealers who know their stuff and to ocasionally work exclusively with them on certain coins that are difficult to find.
This being said, it is hard to argue with the thrill of the hunt which contradicts the thrill of the dealer finding the coin for you.
No doubt. However, it's worth adding that if a good relationship with a dealer is a good thing, a good relationship with many dealers is even better. Not just because you'll get more great coins, but because you'll learn more and have more fun.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Laura's points about - developing a good relationship with a dealer, don't always go for registry points, don't overpay for coins in auction, don't be shy about paying a premium for a coin that's going to enhance your collection and hold your coin for a long term is just good advise.
No doubt. However, it's worth adding that if a good relationship with a dealer is a good thing, a good relationship with many dealers is even better. Not just because you'll get more great coins, but because you'll learn more and have more fun.
I have a favorite dealer for world coins and a favorite dealer for US coins. ??
Edited to say I don't have the time to hunt for coins all day so indeed I appreciate very
much working with selected dealers.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Great marketing!
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"Sou Mangueira......."
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