Betcha you can't find one of these! An obscure commem rarity...

MrEureka

See if you can find another Pan-Pac half dollar with the same mintmark position. Check your collections, auction archives, whatever. Strange as it may seem, this appears to be an R-7 variety!

And for those of you who think it doesn't matter, try offering me one. You will be very pleased.

Boosibri

Cool!

oih82w8

Is it because it is counterfeit? The certification number does not show up in the database.



http://www.pcgs.com/cert/13895705



We're sorry. That PCGS Cert Number was not found in our database. Please double check the number and try again. To speak with PCGS Customer Service, call us at 1-800-447-8848.

Yorkshireman

In my opinion, that is the prettiest commemorative.

Eagleguy

To help illustrate Andy's point, here is one I used to own. You can see that the mint mark on mine is much closer to the date.

StrikeOutXXX

Pretty noticeable difference in position. Any reference to how many dies were made/used? 60k minted, 27k or so not melted, have to wonder what the breakdown was.

It's funny, they were originally not going to mintmark the Pan Pacs since they were all going to be made in San Francisco (At least that's what Philadelphia thought) - when San Fran received the first Dollar dies without them and protested, they sent back the dies already received and recalled the ones in transit and started adding the "S" to all the denominations in Philadelphia. They probably had to rush this, so the quality control may have been slightly lacking on positioning.

oih82w8

Originally posted by: StrikeOutXXX

Pretty noticeable difference in position. Any reference to how many dies were made/used? 60k minted, 27k or so not melted, have to wonder what the breakdown was.



It's funny, they were originally not going to mintmark the Pan Pacs since they were all going to be made in San Francisco (At least that's what Philadelphia thought) - when San Fran received the first Dollar dies without them and protested, they sent back the dies already received and recalled the ones in transit and started adding the "S" to all the denominations in Philadelphia. They probably had to rush this, so the quality control may have been slightly lacking on positioning.

Which could explain why my Pan-Pac Half has a RPM...quite a bit closer to the date as well.

mariner67

Had no idea....thanks for interesting post.
Day by day I learn here.

MrEureka

Off the top of my head, I'd guess that there are six mintmark positions known, including two different repunched mint marks.

As for the cert number, I'd guess that the coin was cracked out and the insert returned to PCGS. In any event, I've seen the coin and it is definitely real.

jesbroken

Did not know this, Andy. Thanks for the information. Beautful coin with any mintmark.

Is this coin close to the one you posted or not? Too close for me to tell with the small rims on your piece.

Thanks,

Jim

roadrunner

I scanned the first 100 specimens on Heritage archives going back to Dec 2014. Didn't see one. Though it's possible I missed one. Out of a mintage of 27,134 that's not many coins.



The "Eureka" specimen has the mm centered in the trough between the first two waves. The other mm shown in the preceding post seems to be a tad further to the right, though close. If you draw a line from the bottom of the right lower serif of the "P" in Pacific, through the tangent on the face of the leftmost wave, approx half the "s" should stick out to the left of that line. That doesn't seem to occur with Jesbroken's specimen.

ricko

I did not know about the different positions.... interesting. Cheers, RickO

DrPete

I find this interesting, as well. The OP coin does have right cheek toning on the little one's buttock.

Numis

Very interesting information. I have one Panama in my type set I built ten years ago.

Here are pics of the mm.

johnny9434

i didnt know either that there were different mm positions. what one does not learn here if ya stick around

TopographicOceans

Originally posted by: StrikeOutXXX
Pretty noticeable difference in position. Any reference to how many dies were made/used? 60k minted, 27k or so not melted, have to wonder what the breakdown was.

It's funny, they were originally not going to mintmark the Pan Pacs since they were all going to be made in San Francisco (At least that's what Philadelphia thought) - when San Fran received the first Dollar dies without them and protested, they sent back the dies already received and recalled the ones in transit and started adding the "S" to all the denominations in Philadelphia. They probably had to rush this, so the quality control may have been slightly lacking on positioning.

Cool info - and thread

MrEureka

I'm surprised that nobody has asked the obvious question:

How in the world can MrEureka possibly care about the mintmark positions on Pan-Pac half dollars?

Let's see if anyone can answer that question. And I'll give you two clues. First, there were two of these in the Floyd Starr collection. Second, the Chase Money Museum had one as well, which was later donated to the Smithsonian with the rest of their collection.

(CJ and the CoinLieutenant are disqualified!)

MrEureka

Originally posted by: jesbroken
Is this coin close to the one you posted or not? Too close for me to tell with the small rims on your piece.
Thanks,
Jim

The most obvious difference between the two mintmark positions is the distance between the S and the top of the 1.

dcarr

Is that mint mark position a special pattern or trial strike ?
The distance between the lettering and rim seems different and/or the rim is sharper.

MrEureka

Originally posted by: dcarr
Is that mint mark position a special pattern or trial strike ?
The distance between the lettering and rim seems different and/or the rim is sharper.

I doubt there's anything different about the dies, except for the mintmark position. It's just that my coin - actually not mine, but the one I posted - was shot in a slab.

Bodin

Here's my only example. Show us the 6 known MM positions if you can.
This is neat!

****PHOTO CREDIT: TODD@BlueCC

Bodin

I was able to come up with 4 different placements on the mintmark.
*also:
MAJOR cuddos to Phil and the PCGS photo team.
Comps like this would not be possible without a consistency of every photograph taken and posted.

MrEureka

Bodin - Nice work! Your four plus my one makes five mintmark positions. Could be a sixth, or not. Frankly, I never tried to figure that out. I was more focused on just the one variety.

RichieURich

Originally posted by: MrEureka

I'm surprised that nobody has asked the obvious question:



How in the world can MrEureka possibly care about the mintmark positions on Pan-Pac half dollars?



Let's see if anyone can answer that question. And I'll give you two clues. First, there were two of these in the Floyd Starr collection. Second, the Chase Money Museum had one as well, which was later donated to the Smithsonian with the rest of their collection.



(CJ and the CoinLieutenant are disqualified!)

I'm going to guess that Mr Eureka believes these are either a pattern issue, or they are a presentation striking of some kind.

Bodin

Added low-res of your coin to the others

MrEureka

Originally posted by: RichieURich

Originally posted by: MrEureka
I'm surprised that nobody has asked the obvious question:

How in the world can MrEureka possibly care about the mintmark positions on Pan-Pac half dollars?

Let's see if anyone can answer that question. And I'll give you two clues. First, there were two of these in the Floyd Starr collection. Second, the Chase Money Museum had one as well, which was later donated to the Smithsonian with the rest of their collection.

(CJ and the CoinLieutenant are disqualified!)

I'm going to guess that Mr Eureka believes these are either a pattern issue, or they are a presentation striking of some kind.

Yes, I do think that they're a "presentation striking of some kind". All of the pieces from these dies are exceptionally well struck and have satiny PL surfaces. If more coins existed from these dies, or if any typically frosty pieces existed, I'd shrug my shoulders and say they're probably just "first strikes". But if they're truly R-7 - I've been looking for years and I know of 5-6 pieces - and they all have an unusual finish, it leads one to believe that they are something special.

Now, did anyone catch the significance of either of my "clues"??? One person locating 5-6 pieces would seem to indicate that the coins are not really that rare, unless you understand the significance of the two clues.

sparky64

Now, did anyone catch the significance of either of my "clues"???

MrEureka, you make me think too much.

I just want the answers.



Interesting thread.





Edit: Nice work Bodin.

They should make a character for you on NCIS as Abby's assistant.

StrikeOutXXX

You're killing me Andy. We need info! 8-)

Do you think it is one of the 30 for Assay?

Do you think it has to do with the dies that struck the 6 trial pieces in silver, 4in copper or 2 in gold in Philadelphia without the "S" mintmark - you think it was added later, but used the same dies?

Do you think it is a special version used in Zerbe's "Money of the World" exhibit (Which later became part of the Chase Manhattan Money Museum)?

Do you think these were part of the Copper display frame sets (10 coin sets) possibly given to dignitaries?

I don't think it has to do with the basic 4 or 5 coin sets, as this is one of Floyd Starr's pieces sold by Stacks in 2006, which doesn't seem to match:




BTW, here is the "Hills Bros" RPM - FS-502 in PCGS MS63 (Heritage Archives)


and an MS-68 S/S from Heritage Archives:

JJSingleton

Is this one? Looks pretty close to my old eyes.

roadrunner

That one shows the MM completely hidden behind the identifying line I mentioned. Not close enough.

CommemKing

I think mine looks like the same in the OP. Am I wrong?

oih82w8

I used to have a Pan-Pac Half that the mint mark looked like an inverted "2". May be PMD...or the top serif is just not as defined.

roadrunner

Originally posted by: CommemKing

I think mine looks like the same in the OP. Am I wrong?

That's not even close to the OP's mm position. Lots of attempts trying for a match....no winners yet.

MFH

Just thought I'd throw mine into the ring - no match, I'm afraid !

Justacommeman

Interesting thread......mark

Aegis3

Are you thinking it's perhaps a Philly mint striking?

EagleEye

Here is one on CoinFacts

Bodin

Yep, Rick, thats one!

Mr. Eureka, whats the rest of the story?

StrikeOutXXX

Originally posted by: StrikeOutXXX
You're killing me Andy. We need info! 8-)

Do you think it is one of the 30 for Assay?

Do you think it has to do with the dies that struck the 6 trial pieces in silver, 4in copper or 2 in gold in Philadelphia without the "S" mintmark - you think it was added later, but used the same dies?

Do you think it is a special version used in Zerbe's "Money of the World" exhibit (Which later became part of the Chase Manhattan Money Museum)?

Do you think these were part of the Copper display frame sets (10 coin sets) possibly given to dignitaries?

I don't think it has to do with the basic 4 or 5 coin sets, as this is one of Floyd Starr's pieces sold by Stacks in 2006, which doesn't seem to match:

ANDY!!! Curiosity is killing the Cat 8-)

I asked RWB ATS about this and where at least I was thinking, his reply was:

"Info about the PPIE coins is in Renaissance of American Coinage 1909-1915.
Assay coins were all destroyed in 1916...largely because the coins were originally sold at a premium and the Mint did not want to then sell them to Assay Commission members for face value.

Zerbe was not trusted by the Treasury or SF Mint - no one made anything special for him, and assertions otherwise are completely false.

The sets in copper frames were assembled from available coins. They don't show anything special except most were kept in better shape than individual pieces.

Roger Burdette"

panexpoguy

Despite already owning two Pan Pac halves, I regularly search those listed on ebay on the off chance that an opportunity arises. A few nights back I was searching and came across this:
The image wasn't too flattering but I did note that it appeared to have been graded in a rattler originally and then reholdered at a later date. On the very small chance that it had an image or auction history, I put the cert# into the PCGS database. No auction history, but this came up:

I thought I recognized the image from this thread and decided that the MM placement met all of the diagnostics posted previously so I bought it as my third example. So, is it? And, based on the clues given, the fact that none of the three examples I have seen show the common 'ring toning' seen so often on these, the satiny proof like character of the surfaces and the example being in the Chase Money Museum collection, I am wondering if these were from a small number provided to Zerbe for some sort of display/marketing to support his sales of the coins?

Would be interested to hear more from Andy on his thoughts.

ColonelJessup

Perhaps Andy thinks the Loot and I know more than we realize. We both think his brilliance borders on the pathological,

A few years ago I had a grading student at Summer Seminar who was Assistant Curator of the National Numismatic Collection, so the three of us got to play in the back vaults for a day.

We lost our lunch ruing the unique and semi-FUBAR 1891 Barbers.
The Loot was marveling over the low grade 27-D $20 and some single digit Judds.
I was bemoaning a lot of messed up Lilly coins, especially but by no means limited to the matte proof gold,
MrEureka was studying the rims, reeds, edges and various other diagnostics of proof Large Size Bust Quarters. And the same attributes of strike, texture and overall fabric of first-off-the-die emissions of late-date Frankies and Roosies in a quest for possible specimens among the them. Pathological genius.

In pre-TPG days, I insisted that FB for Mercs was FSRB (Fully Split and Rounded Bands).
66 or better, I want a Pan-Pac with great lustre, accompanying color and a Fully Split and Rounded Tush..
Otherwise, that particular coin must lack a mintmark to gain my interest, or I'm out of my league.

Our Naval Person and Andy are likely discussing MMs on Swiss coins as I type.

Here's a good topic for The 19 Year Old Coin Dealer. A refresher thread with images on the six MM positions on 16-D Mercs.
Unless there are only five.

On that one, CaptHenway knows the answers but joins the Not Allowed to Respond Club.

kiyote

Hmm, is this what you're looking for?

panexpoguy

Perhaps Andy's position is that they are satin finish proofs

MrEureka

@kiyote said:

Hmm, is this what you're looking for?

We have a winner!

kiyote

@MrEureka said:

@kiyote said:

Hmm, is this what you're looking for?

We have a winner!

Oh, cool! I had an entire folder on my computer of Pan PAC half images I've saved over the years. Who knew it would one day come in handy?

291fifth

Interesting thread. I learned something new.

CaptHenway

@panexpoguy said:
Perhaps Andy's position is that they are satin finish proofs

Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding!

kiyote

Satin proofs? I know some exist but do we have any such authenticated by our gracious host as such to compare to?

This thread is so exciting. It's bringing out the coin nerd in me pretty hard!

MrEureka

@kiyote said:
Satin proofs? I know some exist but do we have any such authenticated by our gracious host as such to compare to?

To the best of my knowledge, none has been certified by either service. But the issue has been under study for years, and the day may come when these coins are recognized as something special.

MrEureka

TTT. Let's see if we can find more of these!

scubafuel

What about panexpoguy's coin above? Looks pretty close.