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Anybody know whatever happened to that hoard of 52 1909VDB Matte Proof Lincolns?

WingedLiberty1957WingedLiberty1957 Posts: 2,992 ✭✭✭✭✭
I know that the hoard of 52 (or was it 53 ???) coins was listed on ebay for a while with a starting bid of $1,000,000 (which was actually bargain priced) and nobody bid. It included that monster PR67+RB that sold on Heritage a year earlier for close to $300,000 as I recall ... This photo was by BluCCPhotos ...

image


Comments

  • illini420illini420 Posts: 11,466 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The ebay listing starting at $1,000,000 wasn't a real price as there was a hidden reserve. The seller had no intention of selling at that price.
  • keyman64keyman64 Posts: 15,521 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Such a pretty coin and great photos by Todd!
    "If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64
    Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners. :smile:
  • DollarAfterDollarDollarAfterDollar Posts: 3,215 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Abe never looked that good in person!!!


    Not that I would know, but I've been told.
    If you do what you always did, you get what you always got.
  • WingedLiberty1957WingedLiberty1957 Posts: 2,992 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I always thought that the smart way to sell that hoard, was to cross the entire lot to PCGS and get some beautiful TrueView photos of each one, Then dribble them out one at a time in some of the good auction venues over a several year period. But that's just me.
  • TopographicOceansTopographicOceans Posts: 6,535 ✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: WingedLiberty1957
    I always thought that the smart way to sell that hoard, was to cross the entire lot to PCGS and get some beautiful TrueView photos of each one, Then dribble them out one at a time in some of the good auction venues over a several year period. But that's just me.

    "Steve" the guy arranging the sale posted over on the Registry forum a year of so ago.
    He didn't want to sell them individually but as one lot.
    Probably because the supply would have brought the prices down.
  • DCWDCW Posts: 7,567 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think the "smartest " way to sell the hoard would have been to keep quiet about its existence.
    Who wants to pay top dollar knowing that there is a roll out there waiting to hit the market? Seriously, I cannot understand this logic!

    Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
    "Coin collecting for outcasts..."

  • gripgrip Posts: 9,962 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: DCW
    I think the "smartest " way to sell the hoard would have been to keep quiet about its existence.
    Who wants to pay top dollar knowing that there is a roll out there waiting to hit the market? Seriously, I cannot understand this logic!



    This.
  • MonsterCoinzMonsterCoinz Posts: 1,518 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I heard from Angel Dee's that he was talking to some major auction houses about consigning them off.
    www.MonsterCoinz.com | My Toned Showcase

    Check out my iPhone app SlabReader!
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,685 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Such a mess!

    I'd love to have one for my type set, but with all of this foolishness, it's probably not going happen. There will be all sorts of bidding games and secret deals, and in the end everyone will lose including the guy who put this hoard together.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • oih82w8oih82w8 Posts: 12,518 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Same here, I would like to have one, but I have a feeling that this "hoard" will be tied up for some time into the future until the present owner(s) come to their senses.
    oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_aka...Dr. Defecto - Curator of RMO's

    BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore, Nickpatton, Namvet69,...
  • DoubleEagle59DoubleEagle59 Posts: 8,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: DCW
    I think the "smartest " way to sell the hoard would have been to keep quiet about its existence.
    Who wants to pay top dollar knowing that there is a roll out there waiting to hit the market? Seriously, I cannot understand this logic!


    Totally agree!!

    Same thing with that huge gold hoard found a few years ago on some guy's property next to a tree.

    Keep quiet about it and sell them individually!!

    "Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)

    "“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)

    "I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,313 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: DoubleEagle59

    Originally posted by: DCW

    I think the "smartest " way to sell the hoard would have been to keep quiet about its existence.

    Who wants to pay top dollar knowing that there is a roll out there waiting to hit the market? Seriously, I cannot understand this logic!




    Totally agree!!



    Same thing with that huge gold hoard found a few years ago on some guy's property next to a tree.



    Keep quiet about it and sell them individually!!







    The difference with that gold hoard, is that they hadn't been seen to the market since the 1800's, a totally fresh group of mostly choice mint state $10 and $20 gold coins. Fresh, fresh, fresh. Many of those coins were up to that point, very scarce dates. Most of us had never seen a single specimen of some of those dates, and now there were a dozen(s).



    When those gold coins were eventually brought to a dealer for marketing, they were advertised around the world. They brought great prices and the majority sold out rather easily on Amazon and the dealer's website, despite their large numbers (over 1,000 coins iirc). I wouldn't have called their business model "keeping quiet" and "selling indvidually," particularly since it only took a few hours or days to sell off the best specimens. While they weren't sold to a single source, they effectively all sold at about the same time, as if they went to a multiple day auction. They were also once-graded coins with considerable potential for many of them to upgrade again. Some of those hoard coins increased the known number of specimens in the 62-64 grades by up to 10X what was previously graded. The fact that there were rolls of $20's hitting the markets for these better date "S" mint Libs, if anything, the market prices were generally higher than if this hoard had never shown up.



    This 1909vdb MPL grouping is a put together hoard drawn from the market. Not a lot of freshness there unless the hoard was assembled more than 10-15 years ago. And probably not a lot of potential for those coins to grade higher, or I suspect the owner would have done it already.



    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • leothelyonleothelyon Posts: 8,476 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: DoubleEagle59
    Originally posted by: DCW
    I think the "smartest " way to sell the hoard would have been to keep quiet about its existence.
    Who wants to pay top dollar knowing that there is a roll out there waiting to hit the market? Seriously, I cannot understand this logic!


    Totally agree!!

    Same thing with that huge gold hoard found a few years ago on some guy's property next to a tree.

    Keep quiet about it and sell them individually!!



    I'm certain somewhere down the line someone would have become a little suspicious and raised the question, where are all these 1909 VDB proofs coming from? Or, better yet, 'golly gee.....a finest known 1866-S No Motto Double Eagle valued at close to $1 million has just hit the market, what's the story? As a buyer, I would be somewhat perturb to learn that I hadn't purchased the best coin from a seller when it becomes apparent that he had other coins I could have selected from. Is there something unethical about selling coins this way? I guess when I sell coins that I have upgraded in my collection, and I'm not really selling my best coin, is there anything wrong with that? I've always found it interesting when Teletrade was around how a certain date, say the 1949-D/S JN, would be up for sale, one per month for 10 months straight with very similar cert#'s. Me thinks if there's a relevant story behind a cache of coins that it would be better that it came out sooner than later because the cat always gets out of the bag and people are going to judge your reasons for trying to keep the hoard a secret and your attempts at trying to capitalize (max your profit) on a product in the market.


    Leo

    The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

    My Jefferson Nickel Collection

  • ianrussellianrussell Posts: 2,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It was certainly a strange marketing plan when they were being offered on eBay as a lot.

    - Ian
    Ian Russell
    Owner/Founder GreatCollections
    GreatCollections Coin Auctions - Certified Coin Auctions Every Week - Rare Coins & Coin Values
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    For anyone with good business acumen, the process was poorly thought out.....Cheers, RickO
  • leothelyonleothelyon Posts: 8,476 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: ianrussell
    It was certainly a strange marketing plan when they were being offered on eBay as a lot.

    - Ian


    The idea was, it was a collection. Pretty much like how I would like my set to stay together with the idea someone else could continue building it since the collection has many years invested in it. But sure, if that side of the equation gets overlooked, and it does, like, who really cares anyway when most buyers are building their own sets, coupled with the fact that most don't have the funds for acquiring an entire collection. But they do sell every so often.


    Leo

    The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

    My Jefferson Nickel Collection

  • BStrauss3BStrauss3 Posts: 3,645 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: leothelyon
    The idea was, it was a collection


    Yeah, but... a collection implies that somebody else would want it as is or be trying to replicate it. I can see ONE example in an advanced Lincoln collection. But 53 is just a hoard.

    -----Burton
    ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
  • luckybucksluckybucks Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭
    That is one stunning coin.
  • deefree49deefree49 Posts: 282 ✭✭✭
    The hoard guy supposedly thought the 53 coins should get a premium because they were part of a large collection. To me that doesn't make sense. If anything, you usually get a discount for a group of coins. My opinion is that he should try to sell them individually. He'll do better and collectors who want them will be happier. I think they are probably worth somewhere between $1,750,000 and $2,000,000 totaled up in a realistic way.



    People have expressed the idea of putting together a buying group. I like the idea in general but then; How would the coins be distributed? I suppose people could put in for specific coins but even then I'm sure there would be conflicts. If somehow a group could be put together, money pledged, an offer made and accepted and everyone agreeable on the ultimate distribution, it would be a miracle of cooperation in the coin collecting community. In other words, "Fat Chance."



    I also thought maybe 26 dealers could get together and get 2 coins each. There must be 25 dealers with 2 potential VDB customers each...then the thing could be done without causing a major disruption in the Matte Proof market. Maybe it would even stimulate interest again. That is another super long shot.



    Whatever happens, it is definitely an unusual situation.
    Lincoln coin lover, especially Matte Proofs
  • ianrussellianrussell Posts: 2,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Agreed, that it's a hoard, not a collection.

    - Ian
    Ian Russell
    Owner/Founder GreatCollections
    GreatCollections Coin Auctions - Certified Coin Auctions Every Week - Rare Coins & Coin Values
  • coindeucecoindeuce Posts: 13,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I've seen a similar situation with an exonumia specialist, who has been hoarding Agricultural medals for decades. He has openly stated that he wants a buyer of the whole collection as one lot. Problem is, he has an egotistically optimistic valuation of the collection, which is an instant turnoff for any who have ever inquired about his long term goal. The collection will undoubtedly end up in his estate, where his children will battle over how to proceed without disregarding the decedents conditions set forth in a will. The lawyers assigned to the estate will be the only winners.

    "Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
    http://www.american-legacy-coins.com

  • mustangmanbobmustangmanbob Posts: 1,890 ✭✭✭✭✭
    To me, it is like a medical ethics example.

    Assume the 5 riches, more hard core bargainers in the world all need a heart transplant, or they will die in 12 hours. None of them will accept dying, and will pay whatever it takes for a heart.

    There are only 4 of the correct type in the world. How much is each heart worth?

    Now assume, a 5th heart becomes available. The heart "owners" also have to sell immediately, and are hard core bargainers. What will the price per heart be, when both parties must buy / sell immediately?

    Now assume a 6th heart becomes available. What is the new price per heart?

    This group reminds me of the day AFTER Valentines Day, and you have 53 big red heart shaped artificial flower displays. Yeah, they can wait til next year, but do you really want to hang onto them?

  • jcpingjcping Posts: 2,649 ✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: deefree49

    I also thought maybe 26 dealers could get together and get 2 coins each. There must be 25 dealers with 2 potential VDB customers each...


    These 25 dealers might share the same two potential customers image
    an SLQ and Ike dollars lover
  • CoinosaurusCoinosaurus Posts: 9,642 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Has anyone ever created a hoard artificially (ie. not dug or shipwreck) and been successful marketing like this? I can't think of a single case.
  • EagleEyeEagleEye Posts: 7,677 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: Coinosaurus

    Has anyone ever created a hoard artificially (ie. not dug or shipwreck) and been successful marketing like this? I can't think of a single case.




    Offering the whole deal as one lot is merely pushing the work in properly releasing them onto others.



    I think the Kriesberg/Cohen distribution of the Beck hoard of 1856 FE cents was done properly. They put one example of the coin in each grade in the auction to set the prices and then wholesaled them to dealers at those prices. Prices didn't go down, they went up.



    To market these coins successfully you would have to set the prices realistically and hold them there. No funny business in the releasing of them to favored people. Total transparency. If after a while some are still around, you can stop the release.

    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
  • cwtcwt Posts: 292 ✭✭✭
    Isn't there currently a hoard of Sacagawea dollar - Washington quarter mules?

    Before their dispersal, would the initial group of 1913 Liberty nickels been considered a hoard?
  • FredWeinbergFredWeinberg Posts: 5,913 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I remember that around 1975-76 or so,

    Jim Halperin of New England Rare Coin

    Galleries started to buy up all the Proof

    1942-P Silver Warnickels; the mintage

    was relatively low (about 27K), and it

    was the only Proof Silver Warnickel struck.



    I believe he started buying them when they

    were about $50-$60 per coin, and ran them

    up to a few hundred dollars; NERG bought

    many hundreds of them (at least), but I don't

    know how they were then resold into the market.



    Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 50+ Year PNG Member.A full-time numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022.
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  • Wabbit2313Wabbit2313 Posts: 7,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Is there a complete list of grades and/or images somewhere?
  • keyman64keyman64 Posts: 15,521 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: Wabbit2313



    Is there a complete list of grades and/or images somewhere?




    I doubt it but that would be very cool!
    "If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64
    Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners. :smile:
  • SteveSteve Posts: 3,312 ✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: keyman64

    Originally posted by: Wabbit2313



    Is there a complete list of grades and/or images somewhere?




    I doubt it but that would be very cool!




    There is PLENTY on the Set Registry forum as well as this forum about the 1909VDB MPL hoard. Just do a search! It is interesting to me that this thread is just two days old and we already have over 50 responses to a subject that the media (ie) CoinWorld and other numismatic venues never seem to mention. I believe it is a VERY interesting subject which needs to be resolved by getting these 53 coins back into the hobby. The fact that this thread appears on the Coin forum instead of the Set Registry forum DOES allow for more interested collectors to view the comments, BUT, like me, if I don't see the thread in the first twenty or thirty threads when I'm online, I may very well miss it. That's why I check the Set Registry forum periodically too. Steveimage



  • robecrobec Posts: 6,810 ✭✭✭✭✭
    compiled by EagleEye





    PR62RD PCGS Only one graded HA 1/05:5501 $5,750

    PR63RD #1 PCGS Pop 3, with a 63+RD. HA 5/10:309 $18,400

    PR63RD #2 PCGS

    PR64RD NGC

    PR64RB #1 PCGS

    PR64RB #2 PCGS

    PR64RB #3 PCGS

    PR64RB #4 PCGS

    PR64RB #5 PCGS

    PR64RB #6 PCGS

    PR64RB #7 PCGS

    PR64RB #8 PCGS

    PR64RB #9 PCGS

    PR64RB #10 PCGS

    PR64RB #11 PCGS

    PR64RB #12 PCGS

    PR64BN #1 PCGS

    PR64BN #2 PCGS

    PR65RD #1 PCGS

    PR65RD #2 NGC

    PR65RD #3 PCGS

    PR65RD #4 NGC

    PR65RB #1 PCGS

    PR65RB #2 PCGS

    PR65RB #3 PCGS

    PR65RB #4 PCGS

    PR65RB #5 PCGS

    PR65RB #6 PCGS

    PR65RB #7 NGC

    PR65RB #8 PCGS

    PR65RB #9 PCGS

    PR65RB #10 PCGS

    PR65RB #11 PCGS

    PR65RB #12 NGC

    PR65RB #13 PCGS

    PR65RB #14 PCGS

    PR65RB #15 NGC

    PR65RB #16 PCGS

    PR65RB #17 PCGS

    PR65RB #18 PCGS

    PR65BN NGC

    PR66RD #1 PCGS

    PR66RD #2 NGC

    PR66RD #3 NGC

    PR66RD #4 NGC

    PR66RB #1 PCGS

    PR66RB #2 NGC

    PR66RB #3 PCGS

    PR66RB #4 PCGS

    PR66RB #5 PCGS

    PR66RB #6 PCGS

    PR67RD ICG

    PR67+RB #1 PCGS CAC-Gold 8/14:5536 $258,500

  • deefree49deefree49 Posts: 282 ✭✭✭
    Thanks for finding that Bob. That list is amazing. I wonder how much $ the owner put out in obtaining it all. (?)
    Lincoln coin lover, especially Matte Proofs
  • OuthaulOuthaul Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Only an idiot announces they have a hoard of rare coins like that. Don't be a schmuck and tell the world you've got them. Sell them one at a time facrissake!

    Cheers

    Bob
  • robecrobec Posts: 6,810 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: deefree49

    Thanks for finding that Bob. That list is amazing. I wonder how much $ the owner put out in obtaining it all. (?)




    I heard the rumor about someone having a roll of VDB's a few years ago. I wouldn't be surprised if a good portion of them were acquired before the MPL price run up of 2007-09.
  • leothelyonleothelyon Posts: 8,476 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Me thinks the guy is 1. on some beach enjoying his money. 2. not in so much of a hurry to sell.


    Leo

    The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

    My Jefferson Nickel Collection

  • SteveSteve Posts: 3,312 ✭✭✭
    Here is the list of the 53 coins in the hoard along with the PCGS price guide values at the time the coins were being offered for sale. Please see my comments at the end of this listing. Obviously, the "owner" of this hoard is a most unusual collector and acquired the majority of the hoard via auctions on EBAY, other auctions, private transactions, and purchases from certain MPL dealers during the years leading up to his decision to sell in 2014. The current status of this hoard is still a mystery, but I would not doubt that some in the numismatic community are more knowledgeable about it than I am.



    PR62RD-----------$11,000

    PR63RD #1-------$23,500

    PR63RD #2-------$23,500

    PR64RD-----------$23,500 ***

    PR64RB #1-------$29,000

    PR64RB #2-------$29,000

    PR64RB #3-------$29,000

    PR64RB #4-------$29,000

    PR64RB #5-------$29,000

    PR64RB #6-------$29,000

    PR64RB #7-------$29,000

    PR64RB #8-------$29,000

    PR64RB #9-------$29,000

    PR64RB #10------$29,000

    PR64RB #11------$29,000

    PR64RB #12------$29,000

    PR64BN #1-------$23,500

    PR64BN #2-------$23,500

    PR65RD #1-------$55,000

    PR65RD #2 ------$48,500 ***

    PR65RD #3-------$55,000

    PR65RD #4-------$48,500 ***

    PR65RB #1-------$40,000

    PR65RB #2-------$40,000

    PR65RB #3-------$40,000

    PR65RB #4-------$40,000

    PR65RB #5-------$40,000

    PR65RB #6-------$40,000

    PR65RB #7-------$29,000***

    PR65RB #8-------$40,000

    PR65RB #9-------$40,000

    PR65RB #10------$40,000

    PR65RB #11------$40,000

    PR65RB #12------$29,000***

    PR65RB #13------$40,000

    PR65RB #14------$40,000

    PR65RB #15------$29,000***

    PR65RB #16------$40,000

    PR65RB #17------$40,000

    PR65RB #18------$40,000

    PR65BN ----------$23,500***

    PR66RD #1-------$90,000

    PR66RD #2-------$55,000***

    PR66RD #3-------$55,000***

    PR66RD #4-------$55,000***

    PR66RB #1-------$69,000

    PR66RB #2-------$40,000***

    PR66RB #3-------$69,000

    PR66RB #4-------$69,000

    PR66RB #5-------$69,000

    PR66RB #6-------$69,000

    PR67RD ---------$150,000 ICG- Walter Childs Collection (Pedigree to US Mint)

    PR67+RB--------$225,000 #1 PCGS CAC-Gold



    John Story Jenks Collection & most recent Jonathan Watkins/McCullagh Collection







    Thanks, Rick, The 11 NGC coins are identified by ***, and the ICG coin is the PR67RD. The other 41 coins are PCGS.



    I've now added RETAIL pricing based on the PCGS current price guide. I've used one grade value LOWER for each of the 11 NGC coins. Of course, this number has no relevance to reality because RETAIL pricing represents the amount the SELLER would like to receive for the coins he wants to sell. And, the PCGS Price Guide values coins in the same grade with the same color designation at the same price. Obviously, each coin is different and commands a price based on its individual qualities. With that said, I'll save everyone the trouble of adding up the 53 coins by stating the price this calculation comes up with is $2,409.000.



    Steve image



    -------------------------
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,194 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Those prices are before 53 coins are on the market. Obviously prices were artificially driven upward by the market maker building the hoard
  • DCWDCW Posts: 7,567 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: tradedollarnut
    Those prices are before 53 coins are on the market. Obviously prices were artificially driven upward by the market maker building the hoard


    Of course they were!
    Ive always wanted a 1909 vdb matte proof, but I would be absolutely beside myself if I paid up for one and then heard of this thread.

    There is no way the price holds. Even if the hoard gets dispersed evenly in short order, I think this put a black mark on the 1909 vdb proof that most will not soon forget. Maybe it's unfair, but the spectre of this hoard seems to blow up the idea of this "rarity."

    Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
    "Coin collecting for outcasts..."

  • WingedLiberty1957WingedLiberty1957 Posts: 2,992 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: Steve
    Here is the list of the 53 coins in the hoard along with the PCGS price guide values at the time the coins were being offered for sale. Please see my comments at the end of this listing. Obviously, the "owner" of this hoard is a most unusual collector and acquired the majority of the hoard via auctions on EBAY, other auctions, private transactions, and purchases from certain MPL dealers during the years leading up to his decision to sell in 2014. The current status of this hoard is still a mystery, but I would not doubt that some in the numismatic community are more knowledgeable about it than I am.

    PR62RD-----------$11,000
    PR63RD #1-------$23,500
    PR63RD #2-------$23,500
    PR64RD-----------$23,500 ***
    PR64RB #1-------$29,000
    PR64RB #2-------$29,000
    PR64RB #3-------$29,000
    PR64RB #4-------$29,000
    PR64RB #5-------$29,000
    PR64RB #6-------$29,000
    PR64RB #7-------$29,000
    PR64RB #8-------$29,000
    PR64RB #9-------$29,000
    PR64RB #10------$29,000
    PR64RB #11------$29,000
    PR64RB #12------$29,000
    PR64BN #1-------$23,500
    PR64BN #2-------$23,500
    PR65RD #1-------$55,000
    PR65RD #2 ------$48,500 ***
    PR65RD #3-------$55,000
    PR65RD #4-------$48,500 ***
    PR65RB #1-------$40,000
    PR65RB #2-------$40,000
    PR65RB #3-------$40,000
    PR65RB #4-------$40,000
    PR65RB #5-------$40,000
    PR65RB #6-------$40,000
    PR65RB #7-------$29,000***
    PR65RB #8-------$40,000
    PR65RB #9-------$40,000
    PR65RB #10------$40,000
    PR65RB #11------$40,000
    PR65RB #12------$29,000***
    PR65RB #13------$40,000
    PR65RB #14------$40,000
    PR65RB #15------$29,000***
    PR65RB #16------$40,000
    PR65RB #17------$40,000
    PR65RB #18------$40,000
    PR65BN ----------$23,500***
    PR66RD #1-------$90,000
    PR66RD #2-------$55,000***
    PR66RD #3-------$55,000***
    PR66RD #4-------$55,000***
    PR66RB #1-------$69,000
    PR66RB #2-------$40,000***
    PR66RB #3-------$69,000
    PR66RB #4-------$69,000
    PR66RB #5-------$69,000
    PR66RB #6-------$69,000
    PR67RD ---------$150,000 ICG- Walter Childs Collection (Pedigree to US Mint)
    PR67+RB--------$225,000 #1 PCGS CAC-Gold

    John Story Jenks Collection & most recent Jonathan Watkins/McCullagh Collection



    Thanks, Rick, The 11 NGC coins are identified by ***, and the ICG coin is the PR67RD. The other 41 coins are PCGS.

    I've now added RETAIL pricing based on the PCGS current price guide. I've used one grade value LOWER for each of the 11 NGC coins. Of course, this number has no relevance to reality because RETAIL pricing represents the amount the SELLER would like to receive for the coins he wants to sell. And, the PCGS Price Guide values coins in the same grade with the same color designation at the same price. Obviously, each coin is different and commands a price based on its individual qualities. With that said, I'll save everyone the trouble of adding up the 53 coins by stating the price this calculation comes up with is $2,409.000.

    Steve image

    -------------------------


    Amazing how this hoard compares to the total known population of PCGS graded 1909 VDB Matte Proof Lincolns ... 53 coins out of the 127 known is almost 1/2 the total known population. Of course not all of these are PCGS graded, some of NGC and others.

    image

  • ElcontadorElcontador Posts: 7,656 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think there were 20 1885 Liberty Nickels in PC 6 that came to market in the last year. That helped prices drop quite a bit (they have dropped quite a bit for the series in this grade).
    "Vou invadir o Nordeste,
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    "Sou Mangueira......."
  • StoogeStooge Posts: 4,673 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Wasn't there a collector that was hoarding 1844 Dimes in all grades?

    Later, Paul.
  • WinLoseWinWinLoseWin Posts: 1,655 ✭✭✭✭✭




    Originally posted by: Stooge



    Wasn't there a collector that was hoarding 1844 Dimes in all grades?








    Yep. Here is one of the original threads from 2003 when all 612 were offered at a Heritage auction as one lot that went unsold. Not sure what happened after, answer might be in this or other old threads.



    Also, as I recall a large hoard of 1856 gold dollars was offered as a lot that went unsold sometime in the last few years at a Goldberg's.





    The 1844 hoard of dimes finally comes to market





    "To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin

  • TopographicOceansTopographicOceans Posts: 6,535 ✭✭✭✭
    Maybe they're all owned by Type2 Hoard the keys.
  • oih82w8oih82w8 Posts: 12,518 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: WinLoseWin





    Originally posted by: Stooge



    Wasn't there a collector that was hoarding 1844 Dimes in all grades?








    Yep. Here is one of the original threads from 2003 when all 612 were offered at a Heritage auction as one lot that went unsold. Not sure what happened after, answer might be in this or other old threads.



    Also, as I recall a large hoard of 1856 gold dollars was offered as a lot that went unsold sometime in the last few years at a Goldberg's.





    The 1844 hoard of dimes finally comes to market







    It's neat to see some of the posters from "back in the day" threads who you don't hear from any more.

    oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_aka...Dr. Defecto - Curator of RMO's

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  • SteveSteve Posts: 3,312 ✭✭✭




    Amazing how this hoard compares to the total known population of PCGS graded 1909 VDB Matte Proof Lincolns ... 53 coins out of the 127 known is almost 1/2 the total known population. Of course not all of these are PCGS graded, some of NGC and others.



    image







    David,

    Besides the 127 that PCGS has graded since 1986, NGC has graded 56 and ANACS has graded 23. Also ICG has graded 6 including 1 in the "hoard" since they started a few years ago. That makes a total of 212 graded by the top four known third party grading services. If you believe that in order to sell a 1909VDB MPL as a TRUE matte proof it needs to be in one of the above holders, then we can reasonably determine how many exist. Let's start with the 6 ICG graded coins. Our "hoarder" aquired the Childs example which was in an ICG holder graded PR67RD. That coin has been pedigreed to a purchase made by Walter Childs directly from the US Mint. I believe it to be the only 1909VDB MPL still in a ICG holder. ANACS has not holdered a 1909VDB MPL in many years. Their reported total of 23 has remained constant on their population reports since I started keeping track in 2007. It is probable that no more than 5 still remain in ANACS holders with the remaining 18 having been "crossed" to either PCGS or NGC. My example is one of those that was crossed by me. NGC's "census" has stood at about 56 for a couple of years. Included in that number are 2 PF68RB's that have been identified as being two submissions of the same coin! The famous John Story Jenks coin was in the NGC PF68RB holder when Jonathan Watkins won it at auction for the McCullagh collection and got it "crossed" to PCGS as a PR67RB+. That coin was then sold to the "hoarder" at the ANA World's Fair of Money auction in August, 2014. Between PCGS and NGC there have been a number of crack-outs and resubmissions to the respective grading services for the purpose to receive higher grades. Additionally, there have been a number of crossovers. Very few of these transactions have resulted in reduced populations reported by the grading services. Based on all of the above, I believe there are no more than 150 examples of the 1909VDB MPL now in existence INCLUDING the hoarder's 53 examples.Steveimage
  • deefree49deefree49 Posts: 282 ✭✭✭
    Steve, I know you have given this the full measure of your analysis and careful thought and deliberation. You also have been sincerely immersed in this subject and the VDB survival problem for years now. Because of this, I am trusting your conclusions and believe you are very close to the truth of the actual survival rate.



    I haven't been into this nearly as long as you but I have given it a lot of considerable thought. Just from the experiences I've had with my small collection and single VDB proof, just from that small sample alone, I've found 36% of them double counted. The holders they were in years ago were never cancelled out.



    I haven't been able to search out every auction and sale to look for matches to my coins. This 36% is just from the major auctions referenced through Coin Facts and the searchable auctions there. Not every one of those had pictures available either, so there easily could be other examples from the Coin Facts auction listings alone. I am not that experienced at recognizing markers on coins either, especially when looking at the coins in different lighting and through different imaging equipment. Even among the ones I did find, if it wasn't for the number on the holder matching in different auctions, I wouldn't know it was the same coin because it looked so different in different images.



    My 1915 and 1916, now in PCGS holders, still exist under NGC numbers. My 1909 has 2 PCGS numbers that both are current. So all those are double counted. The VDB must have been cracked out and resubmitted because it still exists under 2 different PCGS numbers. How many of my other coins have other numbers too that are still current? Knowing what I've learned in the last few months and paying attention to things people say, I would venture a guess that up to 50% of the proofs graded higher than 65 have 2 current numbers and some may have even more. Applying this to the total number of VDB proofs, Steve's numbers make very good sense.



    Finally, I believe because the actual number of surviving proofs, (not just the VDB) is really about equal to the PCGS total without adding in the other TPG companies. This gives roughly the following:

    1909: 530

    VDB: 127

    1910: 466

    1911: 450

    1912: 454

    1913: 586

    1914: 398

    1915: 323

    1916: 217



    Numbers are pretty certain on the mintage totals for 1914 and 1915. Using existing survivor numbers and the mintage numbers for those years, I believe approximately the following number of coins were actually released to collectors:



    1909: 1600

    VDB: 400

    1910: 1500

    1911: 1450

    1912: 1450

    1913: 1800

    1914: 1300

    1915: 1000

    1916: 700



    These are of course, estimates. Yet if we extrapolate the two known years, 1914 and 1915, the numbers in my estimate work out to be close. The mintage numbers that have been reported over the last 100 years have changed time and time again for every year but 1914 and 1915. I don't think those numbers are reliable at all. Even archives from the mint could be fudged. What was put in those books could be mistakes or even inflated numbers to give the appearance of being "busy". It would not be the first time a government agency did something along those lines. I believe it makes much more sense to count from what we know. Survival numbers are from now and could even be corrected if collectors had the will to report all their holdings to some person or persons who wanted to tally them. Non existent numbers of holders could be finally retired and double counted (and triple counted) coins could be finally corrected. While that likely won't happen, if people who have matte proofs would check past auctions and see if they find their coins in older holders, they could check those numbers to see if they were retired. The sample of multiple counted coins could be expanded and we'd have a better true count of the actual number of surviving coins.



    As far as the hoard goes, well we do know he has 53 VDB proofs. That is not in dispute!

    Lincoln coin lover, especially Matte Proofs

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