Anybody know whatever happened to that hoard of 52 1909VDB Matte Proof Lincolns?
WingedLiberty1957
Posts: 2,992 ✭✭✭✭✭
I know that the hoard of 52 (or was it 53 ???) coins was listed on ebay for a while with a starting bid of $1,000,000 (which was actually bargain priced) and nobody bid. It included that monster PR67+RB that sold on Heritage a year earlier for close to $300,000 as I recall ... This photo was by BluCCPhotos ...
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Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
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Not that I would know, but I've been told.
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My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
I always thought that the smart way to sell that hoard, was to cross the entire lot to PCGS and get some beautiful TrueView photos of each one, Then dribble them out one at a time in some of the good auction venues over a several year period. But that's just me.
"Steve" the guy arranging the sale posted over on the Registry forum a year of so ago.
He didn't want to sell them individually but as one lot.
Probably because the supply would have brought the prices down.
Who wants to pay top dollar knowing that there is a roll out there waiting to hit the market? Seriously, I cannot understand this logic!
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
I think the "smartest " way to sell the hoard would have been to keep quiet about its existence.
Who wants to pay top dollar knowing that there is a roll out there waiting to hit the market? Seriously, I cannot understand this logic!
This.
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I'd love to have one for my type set, but with all of this foolishness, it's probably not going happen. There will be all sorts of bidding games and secret deals, and in the end everyone will lose including the guy who put this hoard together.
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I think the "smartest " way to sell the hoard would have been to keep quiet about its existence.
Who wants to pay top dollar knowing that there is a roll out there waiting to hit the market? Seriously, I cannot understand this logic!
Totally agree!!
Same thing with that huge gold hoard found a few years ago on some guy's property next to a tree.
Keep quiet about it and sell them individually!!
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
I think the "smartest " way to sell the hoard would have been to keep quiet about its existence.
Who wants to pay top dollar knowing that there is a roll out there waiting to hit the market? Seriously, I cannot understand this logic!
Totally agree!!
Same thing with that huge gold hoard found a few years ago on some guy's property next to a tree.
Keep quiet about it and sell them individually!!
The difference with that gold hoard, is that they hadn't been seen to the market since the 1800's, a totally fresh group of mostly choice mint state $10 and $20 gold coins. Fresh, fresh, fresh. Many of those coins were up to that point, very scarce dates. Most of us had never seen a single specimen of some of those dates, and now there were a dozen(s).
When those gold coins were eventually brought to a dealer for marketing, they were advertised around the world. They brought great prices and the majority sold out rather easily on Amazon and the dealer's website, despite their large numbers (over 1,000 coins iirc). I wouldn't have called their business model "keeping quiet" and "selling indvidually," particularly since it only took a few hours or days to sell off the best specimens. While they weren't sold to a single source, they effectively all sold at about the same time, as if they went to a multiple day auction. They were also once-graded coins with considerable potential for many of them to upgrade again. Some of those hoard coins increased the known number of specimens in the 62-64 grades by up to 10X what was previously graded. The fact that there were rolls of $20's hitting the markets for these better date "S" mint Libs, if anything, the market prices were generally higher than if this hoard had never shown up.
This 1909vdb MPL grouping is a put together hoard drawn from the market. Not a lot of freshness there unless the hoard was assembled more than 10-15 years ago. And probably not a lot of potential for those coins to grade higher, or I suspect the owner would have done it already.
I think the "smartest " way to sell the hoard would have been to keep quiet about its existence.
Who wants to pay top dollar knowing that there is a roll out there waiting to hit the market? Seriously, I cannot understand this logic!
Totally agree!!
Same thing with that huge gold hoard found a few years ago on some guy's property next to a tree.
Keep quiet about it and sell them individually!!
I'm certain somewhere down the line someone would have become a little suspicious and raised the question, where are all these 1909 VDB proofs coming from? Or, better yet, 'golly gee.....a finest known 1866-S No Motto Double Eagle valued at close to $1 million has just hit the market, what's the story? As a buyer, I would be somewhat perturb to learn that I hadn't purchased the best coin from a seller when it becomes apparent that he had other coins I could have selected from. Is there something unethical about selling coins this way? I guess when I sell coins that I have upgraded in my collection, and I'm not really selling my best coin, is there anything wrong with that? I've always found it interesting when Teletrade was around how a certain date, say the 1949-D/S JN, would be up for sale, one per month for 10 months straight with very similar cert#'s. Me thinks if there's a relevant story behind a cache of coins that it would be better that it came out sooner than later because the cat always gets out of the bag and people are going to judge your reasons for trying to keep the hoard a secret and your attempts at trying to capitalize (max your profit) on a product in the market.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
- Ian
Owner/Founder GreatCollections
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TDN offered $500k for the lot.
It was certainly a strange marketing plan when they were being offered on eBay as a lot.
- Ian
The idea was, it was a collection. Pretty much like how I would like my set to stay together with the idea someone else could continue building it since the collection has many years invested in it. But sure, if that side of the equation gets overlooked, and it does, like, who really cares anyway when most buyers are building their own sets, coupled with the fact that most don't have the funds for acquiring an entire collection. But they do sell every so often.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
The idea was, it was a collection
Yeah, but... a collection implies that somebody else would want it as is or be trying to replicate it. I can see ONE example in an advanced Lincoln collection. But 53 is just a hoard.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
People have expressed the idea of putting together a buying group. I like the idea in general but then; How would the coins be distributed? I suppose people could put in for specific coins but even then I'm sure there would be conflicts. If somehow a group could be put together, money pledged, an offer made and accepted and everyone agreeable on the ultimate distribution, it would be a miracle of cooperation in the coin collecting community. In other words, "Fat Chance."
I also thought maybe 26 dealers could get together and get 2 coins each. There must be 25 dealers with 2 potential VDB customers each...then the thing could be done without causing a major disruption in the Matte Proof market. Maybe it would even stimulate interest again. That is another super long shot.
Whatever happens, it is definitely an unusual situation.
- Ian
Owner/Founder GreatCollections
GreatCollections Coin Auctions - Certified Coin Auctions Every Week - Rare Coins & Coin Values
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
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Assume the 5 riches, more hard core bargainers in the world all need a heart transplant, or they will die in 12 hours. None of them will accept dying, and will pay whatever it takes for a heart.
There are only 4 of the correct type in the world. How much is each heart worth?
Now assume, a 5th heart becomes available. The heart "owners" also have to sell immediately, and are hard core bargainers. What will the price per heart be, when both parties must buy / sell immediately?
Now assume a 6th heart becomes available. What is the new price per heart?
This group reminds me of the day AFTER Valentines Day, and you have 53 big red heart shaped artificial flower displays. Yeah, they can wait til next year, but do you really want to hang onto them?
I also thought maybe 26 dealers could get together and get 2 coins each. There must be 25 dealers with 2 potential VDB customers each...
These 25 dealers might share the same two potential customers
Has anyone ever created a hoard artificially (ie. not dug or shipwreck) and been successful marketing like this? I can't think of a single case.
Offering the whole deal as one lot is merely pushing the work in properly releasing them onto others.
I think the Kriesberg/Cohen distribution of the Beck hoard of 1856 FE cents was done properly. They put one example of the coin in each grade in the auction to set the prices and then wholesaled them to dealers at those prices. Prices didn't go down, they went up.
To market these coins successfully you would have to set the prices realistically and hold them there. No funny business in the releasing of them to favored people. Total transparency. If after a while some are still around, you can stop the release.
Before their dispersal, would the initial group of 1913 Liberty nickels been considered a hoard?
Jim Halperin of New England Rare Coin
Galleries started to buy up all the Proof
1942-P Silver Warnickels; the mintage
was relatively low (about 27K), and it
was the only Proof Silver Warnickel struck.
I believe he started buying them when they
were about $50-$60 per coin, and ran them
up to a few hundred dollars; NERG bought
many hundreds of them (at least), but I don't
know how they were then resold into the market.
Is there a complete list of grades and/or images somewhere?
Is there a complete list of grades and/or images somewhere?
I doubt it but that would be very cool!
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
Is there a complete list of grades and/or images somewhere?
I doubt it but that would be very cool!
There is PLENTY on the Set Registry forum as well as this forum about the 1909VDB MPL hoard. Just do a search! It is interesting to me that this thread is just two days old and we already have over 50 responses to a subject that the media (ie) CoinWorld and other numismatic venues never seem to mention. I believe it is a VERY interesting subject which needs to be resolved by getting these 53 coins back into the hobby. The fact that this thread appears on the Coin forum instead of the Set Registry forum DOES allow for more interested collectors to view the comments, BUT, like me, if I don't see the thread in the first twenty or thirty threads when I'm online, I may very well miss it. That's why I check the Set Registry forum periodically too. Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
PR62RD PCGS Only one graded HA 1/05:5501 $5,750
PR63RD #1 PCGS Pop 3, with a 63+RD. HA 5/10:309 $18,400
PR63RD #2 PCGS
PR64RD NGC
PR64RB #1 PCGS
PR64RB #2 PCGS
PR64RB #3 PCGS
PR64RB #4 PCGS
PR64RB #5 PCGS
PR64RB #6 PCGS
PR64RB #7 PCGS
PR64RB #8 PCGS
PR64RB #9 PCGS
PR64RB #10 PCGS
PR64RB #11 PCGS
PR64RB #12 PCGS
PR64BN #1 PCGS
PR64BN #2 PCGS
PR65RD #1 PCGS
PR65RD #2 NGC
PR65RD #3 PCGS
PR65RD #4 NGC
PR65RB #1 PCGS
PR65RB #2 PCGS
PR65RB #3 PCGS
PR65RB #4 PCGS
PR65RB #5 PCGS
PR65RB #6 PCGS
PR65RB #7 NGC
PR65RB #8 PCGS
PR65RB #9 PCGS
PR65RB #10 PCGS
PR65RB #11 PCGS
PR65RB #12 NGC
PR65RB #13 PCGS
PR65RB #14 PCGS
PR65RB #15 NGC
PR65RB #16 PCGS
PR65RB #17 PCGS
PR65RB #18 PCGS
PR65BN NGC
PR66RD #1 PCGS
PR66RD #2 NGC
PR66RD #3 NGC
PR66RD #4 NGC
PR66RB #1 PCGS
PR66RB #2 NGC
PR66RB #3 PCGS
PR66RB #4 PCGS
PR66RB #5 PCGS
PR66RB #6 PCGS
PR67RD ICG
PR67+RB #1 PCGS CAC-Gold 8/14:5536 $258,500
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
Cheers
Bob
Thanks for finding that Bob. That list is amazing. I wonder how much $ the owner put out in obtaining it all. (?)
I heard the rumor about someone having a roll of VDB's a few years ago. I wouldn't be surprised if a good portion of them were acquired before the MPL price run up of 2007-09.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
PR62RD-----------$11,000
PR63RD #1-------$23,500
PR63RD #2-------$23,500
PR64RD-----------$23,500 ***
PR64RB #1-------$29,000
PR64RB #2-------$29,000
PR64RB #3-------$29,000
PR64RB #4-------$29,000
PR64RB #5-------$29,000
PR64RB #6-------$29,000
PR64RB #7-------$29,000
PR64RB #8-------$29,000
PR64RB #9-------$29,000
PR64RB #10------$29,000
PR64RB #11------$29,000
PR64RB #12------$29,000
PR64BN #1-------$23,500
PR64BN #2-------$23,500
PR65RD #1-------$55,000
PR65RD #2 ------$48,500 ***
PR65RD #3-------$55,000
PR65RD #4-------$48,500 ***
PR65RB #1-------$40,000
PR65RB #2-------$40,000
PR65RB #3-------$40,000
PR65RB #4-------$40,000
PR65RB #5-------$40,000
PR65RB #6-------$40,000
PR65RB #7-------$29,000***
PR65RB #8-------$40,000
PR65RB #9-------$40,000
PR65RB #10------$40,000
PR65RB #11------$40,000
PR65RB #12------$29,000***
PR65RB #13------$40,000
PR65RB #14------$40,000
PR65RB #15------$29,000***
PR65RB #16------$40,000
PR65RB #17------$40,000
PR65RB #18------$40,000
PR65BN ----------$23,500***
PR66RD #1-------$90,000
PR66RD #2-------$55,000***
PR66RD #3-------$55,000***
PR66RD #4-------$55,000***
PR66RB #1-------$69,000
PR66RB #2-------$40,000***
PR66RB #3-------$69,000
PR66RB #4-------$69,000
PR66RB #5-------$69,000
PR66RB #6-------$69,000
PR67RD ---------$150,000 ICG- Walter Childs Collection (Pedigree to US Mint)
PR67+RB--------$225,000 #1 PCGS CAC-Gold
John Story Jenks Collection & most recent Jonathan Watkins/McCullagh Collection
Thanks, Rick, The 11 NGC coins are identified by ***, and the ICG coin is the PR67RD. The other 41 coins are PCGS.
I've now added RETAIL pricing based on the PCGS current price guide. I've used one grade value LOWER for each of the 11 NGC coins. Of course, this number has no relevance to reality because RETAIL pricing represents the amount the SELLER would like to receive for the coins he wants to sell. And, the PCGS Price Guide values coins in the same grade with the same color designation at the same price. Obviously, each coin is different and commands a price based on its individual qualities. With that said, I'll save everyone the trouble of adding up the 53 coins by stating the price this calculation comes up with is $2,409.000.
Steve
-------------------------
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
Those prices are before 53 coins are on the market. Obviously prices were artificially driven upward by the market maker building the hoard
Of course they were!
Ive always wanted a 1909 vdb matte proof, but I would be absolutely beside myself if I paid up for one and then heard of this thread.
There is no way the price holds. Even if the hoard gets dispersed evenly in short order, I think this put a black mark on the 1909 vdb proof that most will not soon forget. Maybe it's unfair, but the spectre of this hoard seems to blow up the idea of this "rarity."
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Here is the list of the 53 coins in the hoard along with the PCGS price guide values at the time the coins were being offered for sale. Please see my comments at the end of this listing. Obviously, the "owner" of this hoard is a most unusual collector and acquired the majority of the hoard via auctions on EBAY, other auctions, private transactions, and purchases from certain MPL dealers during the years leading up to his decision to sell in 2014. The current status of this hoard is still a mystery, but I would not doubt that some in the numismatic community are more knowledgeable about it than I am.
PR62RD-----------$11,000
PR63RD #1-------$23,500
PR63RD #2-------$23,500
PR64RD-----------$23,500 ***
PR64RB #1-------$29,000
PR64RB #2-------$29,000
PR64RB #3-------$29,000
PR64RB #4-------$29,000
PR64RB #5-------$29,000
PR64RB #6-------$29,000
PR64RB #7-------$29,000
PR64RB #8-------$29,000
PR64RB #9-------$29,000
PR64RB #10------$29,000
PR64RB #11------$29,000
PR64RB #12------$29,000
PR64BN #1-------$23,500
PR64BN #2-------$23,500
PR65RD #1-------$55,000
PR65RD #2 ------$48,500 ***
PR65RD #3-------$55,000
PR65RD #4-------$48,500 ***
PR65RB #1-------$40,000
PR65RB #2-------$40,000
PR65RB #3-------$40,000
PR65RB #4-------$40,000
PR65RB #5-------$40,000
PR65RB #6-------$40,000
PR65RB #7-------$29,000***
PR65RB #8-------$40,000
PR65RB #9-------$40,000
PR65RB #10------$40,000
PR65RB #11------$40,000
PR65RB #12------$29,000***
PR65RB #13------$40,000
PR65RB #14------$40,000
PR65RB #15------$29,000***
PR65RB #16------$40,000
PR65RB #17------$40,000
PR65RB #18------$40,000
PR65BN ----------$23,500***
PR66RD #1-------$90,000
PR66RD #2-------$55,000***
PR66RD #3-------$55,000***
PR66RD #4-------$55,000***
PR66RB #1-------$69,000
PR66RB #2-------$40,000***
PR66RB #3-------$69,000
PR66RB #4-------$69,000
PR66RB #5-------$69,000
PR66RB #6-------$69,000
PR67RD ---------$150,000 ICG- Walter Childs Collection (Pedigree to US Mint)
PR67+RB--------$225,000 #1 PCGS CAC-Gold
John Story Jenks Collection & most recent Jonathan Watkins/McCullagh Collection
Thanks, Rick, The 11 NGC coins are identified by ***, and the ICG coin is the PR67RD. The other 41 coins are PCGS.
I've now added RETAIL pricing based on the PCGS current price guide. I've used one grade value LOWER for each of the 11 NGC coins. Of course, this number has no relevance to reality because RETAIL pricing represents the amount the SELLER would like to receive for the coins he wants to sell. And, the PCGS Price Guide values coins in the same grade with the same color designation at the same price. Obviously, each coin is different and commands a price based on its individual qualities. With that said, I'll save everyone the trouble of adding up the 53 coins by stating the price this calculation comes up with is $2,409.000.
Steve
-------------------------
Amazing how this hoard compares to the total known population of PCGS graded 1909 VDB Matte Proof Lincolns ... 53 coins out of the 127 known is almost 1/2 the total known population. Of course not all of these are PCGS graded, some of NGC and others.
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My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
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Wasn't there a collector that was hoarding 1844 Dimes in all grades?
Yep. Here is one of the original threads from 2003 when all 612 were offered at a Heritage auction as one lot that went unsold. Not sure what happened after, answer might be in this or other old threads.
Also, as I recall a large hoard of 1856 gold dollars was offered as a lot that went unsold sometime in the last few years at a Goldberg's.
The 1844 hoard of dimes finally comes to market
"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Wasn't there a collector that was hoarding 1844 Dimes in all grades?
Yep. Here is one of the original threads from 2003 when all 612 were offered at a Heritage auction as one lot that went unsold. Not sure what happened after, answer might be in this or other old threads.
Also, as I recall a large hoard of 1856 gold dollars was offered as a lot that went unsold sometime in the last few years at a Goldberg's.
The 1844 hoard of dimes finally comes to market
It's neat to see some of the posters from "back in the day" threads who you don't hear from any more.
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Amazing how this hoard compares to the total known population of PCGS graded 1909 VDB Matte Proof Lincolns ... 53 coins out of the 127 known is almost 1/2 the total known population. Of course not all of these are PCGS graded, some of NGC and others.
David,
Besides the 127 that PCGS has graded since 1986, NGC has graded 56 and ANACS has graded 23. Also ICG has graded 6 including 1 in the "hoard" since they started a few years ago. That makes a total of 212 graded by the top four known third party grading services. If you believe that in order to sell a 1909VDB MPL as a TRUE matte proof it needs to be in one of the above holders, then we can reasonably determine how many exist. Let's start with the 6 ICG graded coins. Our "hoarder" aquired the Childs example which was in an ICG holder graded PR67RD. That coin has been pedigreed to a purchase made by Walter Childs directly from the US Mint. I believe it to be the only 1909VDB MPL still in a ICG holder. ANACS has not holdered a 1909VDB MPL in many years. Their reported total of 23 has remained constant on their population reports since I started keeping track in 2007. It is probable that no more than 5 still remain in ANACS holders with the remaining 18 having been "crossed" to either PCGS or NGC. My example is one of those that was crossed by me. NGC's "census" has stood at about 56 for a couple of years. Included in that number are 2 PF68RB's that have been identified as being two submissions of the same coin! The famous John Story Jenks coin was in the NGC PF68RB holder when Jonathan Watkins won it at auction for the McCullagh collection and got it "crossed" to PCGS as a PR67RB+. That coin was then sold to the "hoarder" at the ANA World's Fair of Money auction in August, 2014. Between PCGS and NGC there have been a number of crack-outs and resubmissions to the respective grading services for the purpose to receive higher grades. Additionally, there have been a number of crossovers. Very few of these transactions have resulted in reduced populations reported by the grading services. Based on all of the above, I believe there are no more than 150 examples of the 1909VDB MPL now in existence INCLUDING the hoarder's 53 examples.Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
I haven't been into this nearly as long as you but I have given it a lot of considerable thought. Just from the experiences I've had with my small collection and single VDB proof, just from that small sample alone, I've found 36% of them double counted. The holders they were in years ago were never cancelled out.
I haven't been able to search out every auction and sale to look for matches to my coins. This 36% is just from the major auctions referenced through Coin Facts and the searchable auctions there. Not every one of those had pictures available either, so there easily could be other examples from the Coin Facts auction listings alone. I am not that experienced at recognizing markers on coins either, especially when looking at the coins in different lighting and through different imaging equipment. Even among the ones I did find, if it wasn't for the number on the holder matching in different auctions, I wouldn't know it was the same coin because it looked so different in different images.
My 1915 and 1916, now in PCGS holders, still exist under NGC numbers. My 1909 has 2 PCGS numbers that both are current. So all those are double counted. The VDB must have been cracked out and resubmitted because it still exists under 2 different PCGS numbers. How many of my other coins have other numbers too that are still current? Knowing what I've learned in the last few months and paying attention to things people say, I would venture a guess that up to 50% of the proofs graded higher than 65 have 2 current numbers and some may have even more. Applying this to the total number of VDB proofs, Steve's numbers make very good sense.
Finally, I believe because the actual number of surviving proofs, (not just the VDB) is really about equal to the PCGS total without adding in the other TPG companies. This gives roughly the following:
1909: 530
VDB: 127
1910: 466
1911: 450
1912: 454
1913: 586
1914: 398
1915: 323
1916: 217
Numbers are pretty certain on the mintage totals for 1914 and 1915. Using existing survivor numbers and the mintage numbers for those years, I believe approximately the following number of coins were actually released to collectors:
1909: 1600
VDB: 400
1910: 1500
1911: 1450
1912: 1450
1913: 1800
1914: 1300
1915: 1000
1916: 700
These are of course, estimates. Yet if we extrapolate the two known years, 1914 and 1915, the numbers in my estimate work out to be close. The mintage numbers that have been reported over the last 100 years have changed time and time again for every year but 1914 and 1915. I don't think those numbers are reliable at all. Even archives from the mint could be fudged. What was put in those books could be mistakes or even inflated numbers to give the appearance of being "busy". It would not be the first time a government agency did something along those lines. I believe it makes much more sense to count from what we know. Survival numbers are from now and could even be corrected if collectors had the will to report all their holdings to some person or persons who wanted to tally them. Non existent numbers of holders could be finally retired and double counted (and triple counted) coins could be finally corrected. While that likely won't happen, if people who have matte proofs would check past auctions and see if they find their coins in older holders, they could check those numbers to see if they were retired. The sample of multiple counted coins could be expanded and we'd have a better true count of the actual number of surviving coins.
As far as the hoard goes, well we do know he has 53 VDB proofs. That is not in dispute!