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Shill Bidding
TigersFan2
Posts: 1,442 ✭✭
I just got outbid on this auction in the final seconds. When I click on the high bidder link, it shows that 97% of the bidders bids are on auctions by GreatSouthernCoins. Shill bidding?
I love the 3 P's: PB&J, PBR and PCGS.
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Big higher next time. If you're bidding in these auctions, you have to accept whatever comes.
GSC does have a following so it isn't too surprising that an 80 FB bidder would bid on a particular seller like GSC.
GSC is rather well known (by those in the know) to sell problem coins so a newbie may think they are getting great deals and don't know yet that they've bought a pile of crap, so they keep going back.
The shill bidder actually had the 3 highest bids on the coin.
With 25 min to go the coin was only at $24.05. Then with 4 seconds left the high bidder entered their "snipe" bid, which was strong enough to beat you by $1.00. There's only one bid from them that I can see. And their bid could have been higher than the $31.05. The simplest option is to bid the most you'd want to pay to own the coin. If you lose, so be it.
Auction bids
This indicates a sniping program.
So the winner had already setup his snipe and probably wasn't even on his computer when the auction closed.
Member Id: 9***p( 80Feedback score is 50 to 99) US $31.05
Jan-29-16 18:39:15 PST
Member Id: 9***p( 80Feedback score is 50 to 99) US $31.05
Jan-29-16 18:39:15 PST
Member Id: 9***p( 80Feedback score is 50 to 99) US $31.05
Jan-29-16 18:39:15 PST
With 25 min to go the coin was only at $24.05. Then with 4 seconds left the high bidder entered their "snipe" bid, which was strong enough to beat you by $1.00. There's only one bid from them that I can see. And there bid could have been higher than the $31.05.
Auction bids
How did the bidder enter 3 bids simultaneously with 4 seconds to go?
It wasn't something I really wanted, but at the price it was at, it looked like a steal.
I see the 3 bids were all at the same time.
This indicates a sniping program.
So the winner had already setup his snipe and probably wasn't even on his computer when the auction closed.
Member Id: 9***p( 80Feedback score is 50 to 99) US $31.05
Jan-29-16 18:39:15 PST
Member Id: 9***p( 80Feedback score is 50 to 99) US $31.05
Jan-29-16 18:39:15 PST
Member Id: 9***p( 80Feedback score is 50 to 99) US $31.05
Jan-29-16 18:39:15 PST
The person actually entered 4 bids with 4 seconds to go. The $24.55 bid was also entered then and was below my $30.00 bid.
Whether a person starts the bidding at 3000 or bids it up to their reserve amount of 3000, what's the difference? I agree with ErrorsOnCoins. I used to get upset about "shill bidding" on eBay, but have developed a new perspective now.
Keep an open mind, or get financially repressed -Zoltan Pozsar
". . . report them all, let ebay sort them out."
I attempted to report the potential shill bidder, but after 10 minutes of searching, I never could find anywhere on the Ebay site to submit the report. By this time, I decided it wasn't worth the hassle.
Talk about getting hosed on both ends.
OINK
3-5 seconds before the close....never lost a coin I wanted and the price was, in almost all cases,
reasonable. I just refused to be in a bidding contest. Cheers, RickO
There are many grey area situations just like when coin auction houses execute bids on behalf of clients on items that they are auctioning. Ebay prohibited anyone who listed an item from bidding on it. That's how they defined "shill bidding". But what if you didn't own the item and wanted to bid on it for yourself or on behalf of a customer? If you don't own it, your bid shouldn't be excluded. The seller is bidding just like anyone else, as a legitimate buyer who will pay for the item. Ebay should allow sellers to set up an account just for this purpose, and fully disclose this to bidders.
Snipe bids were entered late in the auction on this item which is a poor way to shill bid but a good way to bid if you want to be the high bidder in the end. A shill bidder should enter his maximum bid early to allow plenty of time for it to be run up, if that is the intent.
I believe if Ebay is interested in enforcing shill bidding, they have a lot more information available than the % of bids made against a particular seller. Ebay can likely see the IP addresses of the bidder and seller and can see if the two are working from the same place.
I have a coworker who helped a friend sell a family member's large stash of Morgan dollars on Ebay. But he wanted to buy some of the Morgan's himself but wanted to be open with the friend that he would be paying a fair market price. So he listed each of the Morgans on Ebay as auctions and with another account, he bid on the ones he wanted. Now according to Ebay's shill policy, he was violating the rules because he had inside knowledge about the coins having pre-sale possession of them and being able to see them, but the intent wasn't to push bids higher but to purchase the ones he wanted at an open, market price.
When I used to frequent ebay, I would place my initial bid.... then wait and launch a nuclear
3-5 seconds before the close....never lost a coin I wanted and the price was, in almost all cases,
reasonable. I just refused to be in a bidding contest. Cheers, RickO
I will do that when there's a coin I really, really want. But often I'm happy to place a lot of bids ahead of time at what I believe is below market prices and hope for the best. A few I do win. It's very time-consuming to wait around to place bids just before auctions end.
I just got outbid on this auction in the final seconds. When I click on the high bidder link, it shows that 97% of the bidders bids are on auctions by GreatSouthernCoins. Shill bidding?
You've mentioned a dealer against whom I've cautioned many of my clients. I'll just leave it at that.
On the web: http://www.earlyus.com
I just got outbid on this auction in the final seconds. When I click on the high bidder link, it shows that 97% of the bidders bids are on auctions by GreatSouthernCoins. Shill bidding?
You've mentioned a dealer against whom I've cautioned many of my clients. I'll just leave it at that.
Yes, I've heard many on here caution against buying raw coins from that dealer, but PCGS coins should be a safe purchase.
My first and last was a buffalo,24s me thinks it was...pitted thing hidden very well.
I suspect when sellers have created a shill account, the shill account is a temporary account with no loss if it gets suspended. The seller would then use the shill account to push legitimate bidders higher and if the shill account actually wins, then the shill account never pays. The seller files a complaint against the buyer for non-payment, Ebay fees are returned and the seller relists again. At least that's how I expect it to work.
I believe if Ebay is interested in enforcing shill bidding, they have a lot more information available than the % of bids made against a particular seller. Ebay can likely see the IP addresses of the bidder and seller and can see if the two are working from the same place.
I have a coworker who helped a friend sell a family member's large stash of Morgan dollars on Ebay. But he wanted to buy some of the Morgan's himself but wanted to be open with the friend that he would be paying a fair market price. So he listed each of the Morgans on Ebay as auctions and with another account, he bid on the ones he wanted. Now according to Ebay's shill policy, he was violating the rules because he had inside knowledge about the coins having pre-sale possession of them and being able to see them, but the intent wasn't to push bids higher but to purchase the ones he wanted at an open, market price.
First off, IF eBay really wanted to end shill bidding, they could - as so well stated above.
I've seen cases with smaller sellers (and they've been detailed on this board) where the offending sellers have been NARU'd for blatant and obvious shilling - but for large eBay fee generators like GSC, it just ain't never gonna happen - if it even is truly a shill and not one of their followers (who IMO are due for a rude awakening down the road if and when they go to sell their purchases).
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
He met a friend at a coffee shop and was showing him his eBay listings on his laptop.
The guy was interested in one, so he used MM's laptop to log in and bid.
Since the IP address logged into MM's account and the friends account who bid on MM's coin, eBay gave MM a 30 day suspension for shill bidding.
It wasn't a shill since the guy wanted to buy it, but eBay saw the same IP address interacting as the seller and a bidder they zapped MM with a suspension.
First off, IF eBay really wanted to end shill bidding, they could - as so well stated above.
I've seen cases with smaller sellers (and they've been detailed on this board) where the offending sellers have been NARU'd for blatant and obvious shilling - but for large eBay fee generators like GSC, it just ain't never gonna happen - if it even is truly a shill and not one of their followers (who IMO are due for a rude awakening down the road if and when they go to sell their purchases).
First, no rude awakening down the road if it's a PCGS coin. I don't see how this GSC could be misrepresenting a PCGS coin as the holders are clearly photographed with the PCGS # visible. Only raw coins would there be a rude awakening (from what I've heard others caution).
Second, the same 97% bidder won a snipe on another of GSC's PCGS auctions today that I had earlier bid on. For me it was one of those auctions where I didn't care whether I won except if I had won it would have been a great bargain.
Thinking it over, there are 2 types of shilling. (1) Bid early to try to force earlier bidding. (2) Snipe at the end to keep from having to sell at a price deemed too low.
I wish it's possible to see the id of the possible GSC's shiller. It would be interesting to see who it as received feedback from and when the account was registered.
Perhaps it's not shilling but a man-crush.
7 or 8 years ago I proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that a certain big ebay seller was shilling almost verything he listed. The ebay rep whole heartly agreed,said it was a major violation of ebay policy and would be addressed. Nothing ever happened! Obviuosly ebay was more than happy to collect the fees on the coins he was selling sometimes 3 or 4 times before his shilling worked and the shill was out bid.
What do you guys think about a major national dealer consigning a coin to Heritage unreserved, Sells in the Heritage auction for 1/2 what he was trying to sell it for, and is now back forsale by said dealer?
7 or 8 years ago I proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that a certain big ebay seller was shilling almost verything he listed. The ebay rep whole heartly agreed,said it was a major violation of ebay policy and would be addressed. Nothing ever happened! Obviuosly ebay was more than happy to collect the fees on the coins he was selling sometimes 3 or 4 times before his shilling worked and the shill was out bid.
It was most likely a buyback by the dealer from the heritage auction.
Sunshine Rare Coins
sunshinecoins.com/store/c1/Featured_Products.html
Here is eBays 'official' policy on shill bidding -> http://pages.ebay.com/help/pol...ler-Shill-bidding.html
Shill bidding is a 'buying violation' and will be investigated they say.
It is interesting that there are now companies that will offer 'shill bidding' for a fee -> http://www.ecommercebytes.com/cab/abn/y06/m05/i31/s01
Yes, this was certainly one of EBay's prime tools when they enforced the shill bidding policy 10-15 years ago. They don't seem to pay attention to IP addresses these days.
Your friend's bids on those Morgan Dollars were certainly legitimate bids, not shill bids. Why should it make a difference which IP address was used to enter the bids?
https://sites.google.com/view/coins-for-sale/home
First off, IF eBay really wanted to end shill bidding, they could - as so well stated above.
I've seen cases with smaller sellers (and they've been detailed on this board) where the offending sellers have been NARU'd for blatant and obvious shilling - but for large eBay fee generators like GSC, it just ain't never gonna happen - if it even is truly a shill and not one of their followers (who IMO are due for a rude awakening down the road if and when they go to sell their purchases).
First, no rude awakening down the road if it's a PCGS coin. I don't see how this GSC could be misrepresenting a PCGS coin as the holders are clearly photographed with the PCGS # visible. Only raw coins would there be a rude awakening (from what I've heard others caution).
Second, the same 97% bidder won a snipe on another of GSC's PCGS auctions today that I had earlier bid on. For me it was one of those auctions where I didn't care whether I won except if I had won it would have been a great bargain.
Thinking it over, there are 2 types of shilling. (1) Bid early to try to force earlier bidding. (2) Snipe at the end to keep from having to sell at a price deemed too low.
I wish it's possible to see the id of the possible GSC's shiller. It would be interesting to see who it as received feedback from and when the account was registered.
Perhaps it's not shilling but a man-crush.
I was obviously speaking of purchasers of raw coins, however, it may be that their TPG coins might not be in the top 50% of quality for the given grade. Individual results may vary, of course.
I suspect that eBay went to hiding buyers' identities to protect themselves from being forced to examine behaviour like you have detailed - it is both expensive and time-consuming. This board used to have WAY more eBay threads back when you could easily identify bad actors.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
I was obviously speaking of purchasers of raw coins, however, it may be that their TPG coins might not be in the top 50% of quality for the given grade. Individual results may vary, of course.
I suspect that eBay went to hiding buyers' identities to protect themselves from being forced to examine behaviour like you have detailed - it is both expensive and time-consuming. This board used to have WAY more eBay threads back when you could easily identify bad actors.
I think Ebay went to hiding buyers' identities because it encourages more buyers. Some buyers don't want their complete bidding history to be public. It's a privacy issue.
eBay will not allow shill bidders to be NPB (and give refunds) on wins for very long. If the winning shill seller pays the FVF then eBay is happy because they will get it again in a couple weeks when the item sells again. Shill bidding is probably cheaper than reserve auctions and show good bidding activity (which some people use in their searches).
The seller ultimately doesn't have to pay the FVF with his shill bidding if he's smart. Email accounts are easy to get for free from a multitude of sites. He simply needs to get a new one every few weeks, register it on Ebay and use it for shill bidding. I don't think a Paypal account is required to register on Ebay. Then when he does win his own auctions, he doesn't pay from the shill account then files a non-payment against the buyer and his FVF is refunded. Of course if he has too many non-payment high bidders with a feedback of 0, it would look suspicious.
I was obviously speaking of purchasers of raw coins, however, it may be that their TPG coins might not be in the top 50% of quality for the given grade. Individual results may vary, of course.
I suspect that eBay went to hiding buyers' identities to protect themselves from being forced to examine behaviour like you have detailed - it is both expensive and time-consuming. This board used to have WAY more eBay threads back when you could easily identify bad actors.
I think Ebay went to hiding buyers' identities because it encourages more buyers. Some buyers don't want their complete bidding history to be public. It's a privacy issue.
Yeah. Hang on to that one. 'Cause that's SOOO eBay
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
Another potential shill bidder
http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayI..._trksid=p2047675.l2565
I had bid on a gold coin yesterday that's being sold on Ebay. A low feedback buyer outbids me. Then an hour before the auction is to end, that low feedback bidder retracts his bid, making me the high bidder again. During the last 12 hours of an auction, only the seller can retract a bid. This low feedback bidder's history is 98% with this seller. I then wrote the seller and asked for my bid to also be retracted as I don't play these shill bidding games. I believe the shill bid was placed to try to entice me to place another bid. When I didn't, the seller had no choice but to retract this high bid. I looked at the seller's other auctions and this same bidder is on them also during the final day of bidding.
Am I just paranoid or does this sound like shill bidding? When the seller wrote me back after he cancelled my bid, he said he's new to Ebay and doesn't know what shill bidding is.
The auction
The fact that you contacted the guy and had him retract your bid should put him on notice. Now, whether he is concerned enough to change his practices is the $64,000 question.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
Different seller....
I had bid on a gold coin yesterday that's being sold on Ebay. A low feedback buyer outbids me. Then an hour before the auction is to end, that low feedback bidder retracts his bid, making me the high bidder again. During the last 12 hours of an auction, only the seller can retract a bid. This low feedback bidder's history is 98% with this seller. I then wrote the seller and asked for my bid to also be retracted as I don't play these shill bidding games. I believe the shill bid was placed to try to entice me to place another bid. When I didn't, the seller had no choice but to retract this high bid. I looked at the seller's other auctions and this same bidder is on them also during the final day of bidding.
Am I just paranoid or does this sound like shill bidding? When the seller wrote me back after he cancelled my bid, he said he's new to Ebay and doesn't know what shill bidding is.
The auction
So why did you decide your bid all of a sudden became more than you felt comfortable with, are you a shill for this seller?
So why did you decide your bid all of a sudden became more than you felt comfortable with, are you a shill for this seller?
At that point, it wasn't about $ and the coin, but the principle of bidding within an ethical environment with an ethical seller. I prefer the people I do business with to also share my level of ethics. I don't care for a seller trying to play games with me to try to entice me to bid higher.
Some were real, some were phish, but bottom line, ebay lost a lot of business because of it, and had people irate that they had been cheated in an off ebay deal, whilst cheating ebay, by a cheater.
1. Once you've been out bid, you're OUT. Your previous bid is not binding should the higher bidder back out. Should a seller cancel a higher bid, you have no legal obligation to purchase the item. It's the law.
2. You may cancel your bid until the hammer falls. While feepay doesn't let bidders do this. A seller that refuses to honor a timely request has no legal foundation upon which to force a sale.
3. A seller has a legal right in a reserved auction with disclosure to bid their items up to the reserved amount. A "reserve" auction does NOT mean a dollar amount, and may include other conditions. In announced "Absolute", or "No Reserve" auction, the auctioneer (usually the seller on feepay) can not knowingly accept a bid from themselves or an agent. Them doing so gives you a specific remedy under the UCC to void the sale, or take the item at the last good faith bid.
Now, a word about feepay's policies: They do not comport with the UCC which governs all types of auctions. Ebay's only recourse for not abiding by their rules is to kick you off of their site. You have no civil legal exposure to feepay or a seller when following the law.
Different seller....
I had bid on a gold coin yesterday that's being sold on Ebay. A low feedback buyer outbids me. Then an hour before the auction is to end, that low feedback bidder retracts his bid, making me the high bidder again. During the last 12 hours of an auction, only the seller can retract a bid. This low feedback bidder's history is 98% with this seller. I then wrote the seller and asked for my bid to also be retracted as I don't play these shill bidding games. I believe the shill bid was placed to try to entice me to place another bid. When I didn't, the seller had no choice but to retract this high bid. I looked at the seller's other auctions and this same bidder is on them also during the final day of bidding.
Am I just paranoid or does this sound like shill bidding? When the seller wrote me back after he cancelled my bid, he said he's new to Ebay and doesn't know what shill bidding is.
The auction
I actually won this auction, so thank you for being paranoid and removing your bid!
Different seller....
I had bid on a gold coin yesterday that's being sold on Ebay. A low feedback buyer outbids me. Then an hour before the auction is to end, that low feedback bidder retracts his bid, making me the high bidder again. During the last 12 hours of an auction, only the seller can retract a bid. This low feedback bidder's history is 98% with this seller. I then wrote the seller and asked for my bid to also be retracted as I don't play these shill bidding games. I believe the shill bid was placed to try to entice me to place another bid. When I didn't, the seller had no choice but to retract this high bid. I looked at the seller's other auctions and this same bidder is on them also during the final day of bidding.
Am I just paranoid or does this sound like shill bidding? When the seller wrote me back after he cancelled my bid, he said he's new to Ebay and doesn't know what shill bidding is.
The auction
I actually won this auction, so thank you for being paranoid and removing your bid!
Glad you got it and are happy.
Some things about bidding and feepay, er, Ebay policies:
1. Once you've been out bid, you're OUT. Your previous bid is not binding should the higher bidder back out. Should a seller cancel a higher bid, you have no legal obligation to purchase the item. It's the law.
2. You may cancel your bid until the hammer falls. While feepay doesn't let bidders do this. A seller that refuses to honor a timely request has no legal foundation upon which to force a sale.
3. A seller has a legal right in a reserved auction with disclosure to bid their items up to the reserved amount. A "reserve" auction does NOT mean a dollar amount, and may include other conditions. In announced "Absolute", or "No Reserve" auction, the auctioneer (usually the seller on feepay) can not knowingly accept a bid from themselves or an agent. Them doing so gives you a specific remedy under the UCC to void the sale, or take the item at the last good faith bid.
Now, a word about feepay's policies: They do not comport with the UCC which governs all types of auctions. Ebay's only recourse for not abiding by their rules is to kick you off of their site. You have no civil legal exposure to feepay or a seller when following the law.
I think your understanding of Ebay policies is wrong.
1. If a higher bidder backs out and you become the high bidder again, you are obligated to purchase.
2. You may only cancel your bid if there are 12 or more hours remaining in an auction. To cancel with under 12 hours remaining, it's necessary to write the seller and have the seller cancel your bid.