My first really agitated customer. And I really don't like to let people down.
Jinx86
Posts: 3,710 ✭✭✭✭✭
Customer came in with a coin and its Anacs Photo-cert and a receipt showing he had bought it from us back in 1982. This Morgan Dollar has a $30K price jump from MS64 to 65 and of course the Photo-cert said 65/65. I had graded the coin a 64 before looking it up and was quite shocked at the price in 64 grade let alone the jump to 65. So I told him that the coin would need to be certified before I was willing to pay MS65 money for it and that I would even be willing to pay for the grading fees if he agrees to sell. At this point he gets quite irate and points at the cert and receipt and says,"but I bought it as a 65, you should be buying it as a 65." I tried to explain how grading standards had changed slightly since then but even a slight change can have a huge impact.
This coin was graded 65, 5 years before I was born. I thought I was doing the right thing by offering to get it graded, however he thought I was just trying to steal the coin from him at that point. Do older collectors just not trust young dealers?
Im 29 by the way.
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You should have printed out a Jinx86 cert that said it was 64
Or just direct him to the PCGS collectors club and have him submit it himself. For a $30k coin, the expense is a drop in the bucket.
Was it sold by someone else in your family/company ?
Have him provide the info to Heritage for an appraisal. That should make you look like a hero.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
You did nothing wrong as you can't please everyone.
He might be back after his does his tour of other B&M's.
He's flat out wrong, but should submit the coin for encapsulation. He might still be golden and this disagreement is unwarranted.
He bought it from your store at which time your establishment had it marked a 65 and the receipt proves it? Your store sold it to him as a 65?
He then returns to same store and now it is claimed to not be a 65 when he wants to sell it?
I can see where he is coming from if so.
Sad situation.
I am not following this well...bear with me..
He bought it from your store at which time your establishment had it marked a 65 and the receipt proves it? Your store sold it to him as a 65?
He then returns to same store and now it is claimed to not be a 65 when he wants to sell it?
I can see where he is coming from if so.
Sad situation.
never mind the THIRTY-FOUR YEAR gap from when he bought it to now?
edit to add. If you want to gamble on a $35K dollar coin that might only grade a 64 at today's standards(as I graded it).
I applaud you.
And we all know that 65 has shifted over the years....even if the buyer/seller may not. Chances are, that 64/65 spread in price did NOT exist to the same extreme in 1982?
If the same buyer brought it back in a week, or month, or maybe even a year....I agree that the shop should stand by the grade/price it was sold at. (Though, the longer the delay, the closer the buyback should creep toward wholesale vs. retail).
I agree with the OP's stance
Anyway, I don't think you're obligated to buy it back at the price he wants. And any "grade guarantee" -- real, implied, or imaginary -- expired long ago.
FWIW, it sounds like you handled it well. Better than I would've at my age (63).
Just Guessing: Is it an 1879 CC or 1894 Morgan?
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It's like if you went to a diamond store and bought one with GIA report stating the grade, but when you come back to the same store to sell it back you're told the GIA report used when you bought it is wrong now.
You'd think either you got ripped off when you bought it, or they're trying to rip you off now when you're trying to sell it.
When I was a kid I bought coins at the local shop and when I sold them back, not only did the buy/sell difference come into play - but the grade went down as well.
Just Guessing: Is it an 1879 CC or 1894 Morgan?
Wow good guess, not the date, but right series. Ive read these things were white-hot at that time period and investors were diving in blind.
Just Guessing: Is it an 1879 CC or 1894 Morgan?
Wow good guess, not the date, but right series. Ive read these things were white-hot at that time period and investors were diving in blind.
You stated it was a Morgan in the OP.
Choice Numismatics www.ChoiceCoin.com
CN eBay
All of my collection is in a safe deposit box!
Yeah, well have you ever tried Squatters Double IPA?
Although once a less than knowledgeable seller gets that big number in their headlights, there's probably no way the outcome will be good.
As a dealer you should have just given him the best price you were willing to pay for the coin as is and he could take it or leave it. No reason to defend your position
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
As a dealer you should have just given him the best price you were willing to pay for the coin as is and he could take it or leave it. No reason to defend your position
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
Just out of curiosity, did you tell him that the Anacs that issued the photo-cert isn't in business anymore?
Also, was the coin still sealed in the flip? Did Anacs use flips that didn't have PVC or did the coin have some PVC damage?
It's also possible, as COCollector suggested, that he's tried to sell it elsewhere and didn't get offers at an MS-65 price.
The collector may also be using a retail price guide, too.
Check out the Southern Gold Society
A. Clueless
B. Seeking only confirmation of what they are already firmly convinced of,
even irrationally so.
In either case, more often than not, a buyer is already up against the emotional strain on a seller of the "Four D's:
Death
Divorce
Disease
Distress(financial)
Sometimes a degree in psychology is more beneficial in this business than hobby related skills.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
The fact that he bought the coin from your firm gives him a reason (if only perceived) to be indignant. (Though it doesn't necessarily make him right.)
You see, it gives some weight to his "I bought it as a 65, you should be buying it as a 65" argument. I'm speaking only in terms of etiquette, mind you, not in any sense about the market realities.
He's just gotten a bit out of touch. It happens. Be kind and explain the 21st century way of things.
A little tact was called for here. Hopefully you didn't fall short in that, or end up with a guy who just had a meltdown and failed to listen any more after that exchange. (Did he storm off angrily?) I can see how this would be a delicate situation.
He had also probably put that money into the coin as an "investment", and may be more the investor type than the collector/hobbyist type, so of course he wouldn't be hip to all the trends.
Who knew in 1982 whether TPG plastic would mellow with age like certain fine wines, or turn to vinegar?
CG
I wasn't there (no one but you and that guy were there) so I don't know the answers to questions that I am thinking....
* Did he seem like a knowledgeable collector?
* Did he even know the price/value of a MS65 BEFORE you looked it up (reading between the lines, I would guess he didn't, or didn't mention it, and you looked it up and saw the value and told him)
* Did you just tell him "I grade it a 64 and won't pay MS65 money unless PCGS grades it that way for me"?
* Was there any discussion around TPGSs? ANACS (old and new) and PCGS, in particular?
* Was he familiar with current grading companies?
* Did he have other coins? Anything graded "recently"?
* You mentioned he had the "cert and receipt". So, how much did he pay for it, originally?
I'm not going to jump on you. I can bet that, in hindsight, it could have gone better if things were said differently, but that is hindsight.
I'm not going to jump on the other guy, or question his ethics, his intellect, "whether he is wrong or not", etc.
Best thing I have read in this thread so far was Pennyannie's final sentence saying you should have just offered your best price for the coin and not discussed all the reasoning.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
If that's not your policy, a lot of people would not want to do business with that safeguard lacking.
Sounds like you took over a family business, or took over an existing shop, keeping the store name. Don't you think there is either an express or implied warranty that whatever grade your store (including your predecessor) sells a coin for, that you will not dispute the grade at a later date?
If that's not your policy, a lot of people would not want to do business with that safeguard lacking.
Why should a dealer be obliged to pay 2016 PCGS price guide values for a 1982 ANACS graded coin 34(!) years after originally selling it.
The value in the guide is relative to the standards which PCGS holds.
I can understand why the collector might be emotional as they thought that they had some entitlement but to imply that the OP is at fault is ludicrous.
Latin American Collection
Latin American Collection
While I can understand the customer's emotional angst, I certainly can also sympathise with Jinx86 for the dose of vinegar he received. As a hotel clerk, I'm often in the crosshairs when somebody gets steamed over something totally outside my control or knowledge. It's all part of the daily grind of customer service. Don't let it drive you to too many drinks, Jinx. You'll get a nasty one now and then. It's inevitable, as anybody in business can tell you. And since you made it clear that you "really don't like to let people down" and that it bothered you, it shows your heart's in the right place, so no worries.
...offer a full refund at the 1982 receipt price and then send it in to PCGS yourself
My first thought as well. Otherwise like someone mentioned previously, send it in for him and go from there. He may be in for a rude awakening or a pleasant surprise.
"...roll the dice and take your chances."
Col. Nathan R. Jessup (Character)
A Few Good Men (1992)
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The buyer should accept the fact that grading services and standards have changed. If he can't then you might have a legal problem. You should win such a case easily, but it's still a pain to have to go though it. This is sort of like walking in with shares of the old General Motors, which went bankrupt, and expecting people to buy it at the price they paid. Markets change, no one can control that.
I don't remember that happening. It didn't happened on my watch, but I left there in the Summer of 1984.
I tried to keep the grading the same year in and year out. In 1979, 1980 and the first quarter of 1981 the red-hot market was vastly overgrading coins because they could. People kept complaining that we were UNDERGRADING coins. Then the market crashed big time. Market grading puckered up tremendously, and the same people that had been complaining that we were UNDERGRADING now complained that we were OVERGRADING, but we hadn't changed, the market did.
When we graded that coin in 1982 the market said it was overgraded. However, with today's severe gradeflation the market today might easily grade it MS-65 or better. That's what happens when the market has flexible standards.
I would like to know more about your connection to the 1982 sale. Family business, or old business name, or what?
TD
I am not following this well...bear with me..
He bought it from your store at which time your establishment had it marked a 65 and the receipt proves it? Your store sold it to him as a 65?
He then returns to same store and now it is claimed to not be a 65 when he wants to sell it?
I can see where he is coming from if so.
Sad situation.
I would agree. And the story is only further enhanced by the fact that market grading standards were ridiculously tight across the board in 1982, even on Morgan dollars. It took a lot of coin to make a 65 grade. Dealers were buying MS65's at CDN bid prices, but the coins needed to be of nearly 67 quality. That was probably the tightest year of grading of the past 40 years. It sounds like this business in 1982 was selling this coin as meeting market MS65 grade and price. It doesn't matter than ANACS graded it 65 but it helps to confirm the owner's claim. Is there a lock-tight chain of custody on this coin from 1982 to 2016 including original invoices, etc? If the current owner is just some guy who bought the coin in the past few years then they can pound sand. But the original owner if they kept it since 1982, has some morale "rights" imo. The debate is just what are those "rights" and how personal integrity plays into. Ensure the receipt is not fake.
As far as ANACS being lax and having to give up the photo certs, that didn't happen until 1988 or 1989. I still recall my local shop submitting for photo certs in 1988 as the dealer didn't know how to grade high end uncs and still didn't trust NGC/PCGS. A deal of 2 dozen Gem 1854 large cents walked into the store and he had them all photo-certed. Most came back MS65 RED. I bought 6 of those coins, 3 MS65 REDS and some 65 RB's. I submitted those raw coins to NGC and they all came the ANACS grades. I can see a problem though over 30-35 years where the coins can't be positively identified to be the same ones in the coin cert photo.
The real issue here is if the coin was sold as a full MS65 gem and receiving the full MS65 market price in 1982.....and then saying it's no longer a MS65 in 2016. Prices crashed into 1982. Even really rare coins fell to 1/3 of their early 1980 highs. I'd have expected this story to be about buying a "gem" in the 1979-1980 mania blow off when 63's sold for 65 money. But, this was 1982 when stuff was nearly unsaleable and dealers didn't want to buy anything unless it was a rip.
Market grading standards did start to slip again from 1983-1986 which brought PCGS into existence. But, in 1982, "almost nothing" a collector owned was "gem MS65" when you brought it to a dealer for an offer. And in my mind, nearly everything bought from a quality dealer in MS65 for an MS65 price ought to qualify as a gem MS65 today. I only bought a couple coins in the market in summer of 1982, both were gem seated dimes. In 1988 they both graded NGC MS65. I only know of the whereabouts of one of them today, the 1858-0. That coin is graded PCGS MS66+. The raw coins I bought at auction from 1983-1986 from top major dealers like Whitlow and NPI all graded out the same or higher as the grade they sold it at. Today, nearly all of those coins are 1 point or more higher.
I can see a problem though over 30-35 years where the coins can't be positively identified to be the same ones in the coin cert photo.
OP has replied 4 times and never indicated this was a problem.
narrative, the situation was handled reasonably well.... and I do understand the ire of the
coin's owner.... While I am not a dealer, I have frequently had people come to me with coins
and request appraisal. Sometimes these were 'Grandpa's', and sometimes they were shopping
network coins...... either way, most had a preconceived notion of value (sometimes it was just
"This coin is old, therefore must be valuable."). Often, particularly in the case of TV sales, the
owner would become indignant. One such case resulted in the individual not speaking to me
again..... even after I showed him the Redbook. I agree with Coindeuce also, it may be a
circumstance of the 'four D's'. adding to the stress. I hope the owner returns so that the
case may be pursued further... Cheers, RickO
I can see a problem though over 30-35 years where the coins can't be positively identified to be the same ones in the coin cert photo.
OP has replied 4 times and never indicated this was a problem.
True. But, it's a possible concern for others with photo certs or even those who might start printing them up with modern techniques and back tracking to the original dealers.
When I took some common gem commems I had bought from my local shop in the 1977-1979 run back to that guy in mid-1980, he flat out refused to make an offer of any sort. He just said "I have no customers for them."...lol. I took that as a "yes" that they were probably over-graded, at least in his mind. It was a lot tougher to sell gem stuff after April 1980. In any case, I stopped visiting that dealer after that incident. Maybe if the Jinx's guy came back in 1989 to sell that Morgan back it would have been in enough time. The prices of better date 64 and higher Morgans were insane. They must have made a lot of money on paper from 1982-1989.
My general point was that in buying from a true quality dealer in 1982 with a photo-cert to back you up, your odds of succeeding by 2016 should have been fairly high. Now, this doesn't apply to 80-90% of B&M's at that time or most national retailers who ran 1/2 to 2 page ads in Coin World at the time. Your odds of success buying from those guys in 1982 still would have been poor. My local B&M shops were generally shysters or didn't know what they were doing (ie everything was gem to them).
I think one solution might be to not offer to buy back the coin at all. Let him sell it elsewhere and be angry with someone else when it comes back (quite possibly in a bodybag). You just don't know how that coin was stored and handled since 1982 (it's not in plastic, right?). It might be an MS64 now, for all you can say. Most dealers do not guarantee that they will buy back a coin after 34 years. That sale is older than you are!!!
HRH still has a lot of DHRC sealed flips running around from the 1982-1986 era. One could bring those back to him and see what kind of response you would get. The OP hasn't indicated that this coin turned green with PVC or became ugly with dark mottled toning. He graded it MS64. In the rare date Morgan dollar market I would think that a MS64 of today is worth a LOT more than a MS65 from 1982. Anyone have a 1982 Redbook?
One thing that has changed since 1982 in Morgan dollar grading is the spreads between 64 and 65 grades on coins that have a fine line between acceptable central detail. Coins like 80-0 and 81-0 Morgans were probably more easily called MS65 in 1982 based on gem surfaces and a slight weakness in over the ear and eagle breast detail. The spread may not have been big enough to raise a ruckus. These days, that won't typically fly and the spreads are huge. For a prodigal son coin returned home to the shop after 33 years, I'd be inclined to do everything possible, possibly including grading fees. You may only get one shot at this. How often do you get to lose a 30 year customer other than their passing?
The deeper question for me is how many of my own coins could be subject to this same scenario if I (or my heirs) decide to liquidate in 20-30 years? One more reason to stay away from B or C coins in grades above the price jump.
the coin on the cert was most definitely the coin in question. The marks on the cheek were nice and clear. It was graded 1981, sold to him in 82, and brought in to sell back to us yesterday. Coin now shows PVC and slight toning from not being sealed/stored correctly.
Thank you everyone for your imput, positive and negative, it helps to see both sides. Ill let everyone know what happens a week from now.
This thread has really taken off over night. He did leave our shop on good terms. I shook his hand and told him I want to make it right. The original seller of the coin(owner of the shop) will be in town next week and they will be meeting up. I would like to be present for this, but will have to see.
the coin on the cert was most definitely the coin in question. The marks on the cheek were nice and clear. It was graded 1981, sold to him in 82, and brought in to sell back to us yesterday. Coin now shows PVC and slight toning from not being sealed/stored correctly.
Thank you everyone for your imput, positive and negative, it helps to see both sides. Ill let everyone know what happens a week from now.
I think that you handled the situation properly, and I am glad that the customer will be meeting with the original shop owner soon. Hopefully he can exhibit proper customer relations as you did originally. Sometimes these situations can turn ugly with one wrong statement.
If I were faced with this same situation in my store, I would have stated that the coin would likely realize the best price in a major auction; the coin would be graded by PCGS or NGC and then professionally photographed, cataloged and marketed by a major auction firm. The collectors and dealers would then establish the TRUE market value in 2016. I would offer to handle the grading/consignment tasks, or simply provide the customer with contact information of the auction house(s) if he decided he wanted to do it himself.
The point is that if I, as a shop owner, bought a coin like that OTC, I would likely send it to auction immediately. By offering that route to your customer, he can see that you are not trying to take advantage, but rather putting him on a straight-line path to the best end result.