Upgrades and Crossovers at shows?

Proofmorgan

Do any of you have any theory or first hand experience on trying to cross or upgrade a coin at a show vs. traditional mail in procedure? I would think when paying $125-$250 for the submission they may throw you a bone. What have you found?

stman

I would think when paying $125-$250 for the submission they may throw you a bone.

Of course, no doubt about it.

ricko

......they may throw you a bone.

???What is that??? Cheers, RickO

lkeigwin

In April, at the Vegas members-only show, I tried to cross a scarce 1812/1 large 8 bust half in an ANACS VF35 holder. Any grade. DNC. PCGS called it cleaned. Damn.



So a dealer-friend bought it, then cracked and submitted it raw. It upgraded to XF40 and sold immediately. Just like that...a $14k profit.



I'm not sure that proves anything but I wouldn't spend the money for a show walk-through unless there was a very good reason (not just a hope that the graders are more lenient).

Lance.

BustHalfBrian

Originally posted by: lkeigwin
In April, at the Vegas members-only show, I tried to cross a scarce 1812/1 large 8 bust half in an ANACS VF35 holder. Any grade. DNC. PCGS called it cleaned. Damn.

So a dealer-friend bought it, then cracked and submitted it raw. It upgraded to XF40 and sold immediately. Just like that...a $14k profit.

I'm not sure that proves anything but I wouldn't spend the money for a show walk-through unless there was a very good reason (not just a hope that the graders are more lenient).
Lance.

I remember that story. But who's to say it wouldn't have gotten the grade if you were the one who had tried it next...

I'm not saying that's what I think would happen, but it's certainly what PCGS wants you to think would happen.

jcping

In the old days, show walk thru slab serial numbers started with 5xxxxxx. I don't know how to read the show walk thru numbers these days (with 8-digit numbers). If you feel that you saw more over-graded high value coins serial number started with 5, then your theory is correct. If not, then show walk thru has no advantage; nevertheless, I bet most over-graded 5xxxxxx cons were re-holdered.

BillJones

From what I've seen "in show grading" is always expensive and often very conservative. As for you getting a worthless body bag and then having someone else get a "full grade," I personally understand you frustration.

Zoins

Some dealers used to use a gradeflation technique called slamming at shows. Not sure if it's still used by dealers these days.

TomB

Originally posted by: Proofmorgan

Do any of you have any theory or first hand experience on trying to cross or upgrade a coin at a show vs. traditional mail in procedure? I would think when paying $125-$250 for the submission they may throw you a bone. What have you found?

The cost is reflective of getting the coin back in-hand within a day (or a few days, depending upon grading tier) without having to pay postage and with the ability to market the piece at the show.

CoinZip

Originally posted by: lkeigwin

In April, at the Vegas members-only show, I tried to cross a scarce 1812/1 large 8 bust half in an ANACS VF35 holder. Any grade. DNC. PCGS called it cleaned. Damn.



So a dealer-friend bought it, then cracked and submitted it raw. It upgraded to XF40 and sold immediately. Just like that...a $14k profit.



I'm not sure that proves anything but I wouldn't spend the money for a show walk-through unless there was a very good reason (not just a hope that the graders are more lenient).

Lance.

Ouch ..

Bochiman

Originally posted by: Proofmorgan

I would think when paying $125-$250 for the submission they may throw you a bone. What have you found?

So, you would want them to compromise themselves over an extra $100-$200?

Their name/reputation is worth a bit more, imho.

coinkat

It does illustrate that grading has a subjective component.

oih82w8

Originally posted by: lkeigwin

In April, at the Vegas members-only show, I tried to cross a scarce 1812/1 large 8 bust half in an ANACS VF35 holder. Any grade. DNC. PCGS called it cleaned. Damn.



So a dealer-friend bought it, then cracked and submitted it raw. It upgraded to XF40 and sold immediately. Just like that...a $14k profit...



Lance.

Do you happen to know of the certification number (16820128 by chance?) and are there images avaliable for us to see?

ElmerFusterpuck

I've done that in the distant past and quickly realized I'd be better off dropping the coins at the show to be graded and sent back to me via USPS. Saves one way postage and way cheaper than show grading (where you get the grades during the show).

lkeigwin

Originally posted by: oih82w8

Originally posted by: lkeigwin

In April, at the Vegas members-only show, I tried to cross a scarce 1812/1 large 8 bust half in an ANACS VF35 holder. Any grade. DNC. PCGS called it cleaned. Damn.



So a dealer-friend bought it, then cracked and submitted it raw. It upgraded to XF40 and sold immediately. Just like that...a $14k profit...



Lance.

Do you happen to know of the certification number (16820128 by chance?) and are there images avaliable for us to see?

It was an ANCS 40 that ended up a PCGS 45. Sorry. Here's the coin.

Lance.

Boosibri

I don't think that there is any special consideration given to show grading.

hickoryridge

Originally posted by: ElmerFusterpuck
I've done that in the distant past and quickly realized I'd be better off dropping the coins at the show to be graded and sent back to me via USPS. Saves one way postage and way cheaper than show grading (where you get the grades during the show).

This

BillJones

Originally posted by: hickoryridge

Originally posted by: ElmerFusterpuck
I've done that in the distant past and quickly realized I'd be better off dropping the coins at the show to be graded and sent back to me via USPS. Saves one way postage and way cheaper than show grading (where you get the grades during the show).

This

This is good advice. Show grading is not worth it unless you need the coin at the show.

jerseycat101

Originally posted by: lkeigwin

Originally posted by: oih82w8

Originally posted by: lkeigwin
In April, at the Vegas members-only show, I tried to cross a scarce 1812/1 large 8 bust half in an ANACS VF35 holder. Any grade. DNC. PCGS called it cleaned. Damn.

So a dealer-friend bought it, then cracked and submitted it raw. It upgraded to XF40 and sold immediately. Just like that...a $14k profit...

Lance.

Do you happen to know of the certification number (16820128 by chance?) and are there images avaliable for us to see?

It was an ANCS 40 that ended up a PCGS 45. Sorry. Here's the coin.
Lance.

I can see why this coin was considered "cleaned" by at least one grader.

messydesk

A couple times, our host has had "risk free" crossovers at shows. Pay nothing unless it crosses, then you pay the show grading fee. If you only have one coin you'd like to try, the show fee with a non-zero probability of not having to pay it could make up for the round-trip shipping on top of the certainty of paying the grading fee whether it crosses or not.

Boosibri

Originally posted by: messydesk

A couple times, our host has had "risk free" crossovers at shows. Pay nothing unless it crosses, then you pay the show grading fee. If you only have one coin you'd like to try, the show fee with a non-zero probability of not having to pay it could make up for the round-trip shipping on top of the certainty of paying the grading fee whether it crosses or not.

I really wish that they would bring that crossover promo back.

georgiacop50

There are many experienced upgrade artiste's that swear by show grading.

messydesk

Originally posted by: georgiacop50

There are many experienced upgrade artiste's that swear by show grading.

Just as many swear at it.

BryceM

There is a line of thinking that goes something like this: The best graders are the ones who usually work the shows. The best graders are usually less conservative, and willing to go out on a limb to "make" a big coin. At a show, at least at first, the best graders are well-rested, in a new environment, and willing to "make things happen."



Some of this makes sense to me, and most of it is just conjecture. At the end of the day, the guy who can train himself to see coins like the pros and present really nice coins to the graders is the one who, over the course of thousands of coins, over many years, is most likely to win at the crackout/regrade/upgrade arbitrage game.

roadrunner

I had one particular finest known NGC MS67 (CAC) for the date worth approx $25K. Over a 9 year period it made 4 FUN shows trips on the $125 express line hoping for a cross...1 by someone else and 3 by me. 0/4. It's still the finest known, and meets current PCGS 67 standards per HRH (pop 0 in 67). Someday it will cross or upgrade to a 67+ when handled by the right person, at the right time. It's a $10K cross. Lesson learned....don't cross...but crack 'em.



ANACS 40 1812/1 CBH.....that's one you don't dare crack out.

leothelyon

Originally posted by: CoinZip

Originally posted by: lkeigwin
In April, at the Vegas members-only show, I tried to cross a scarce 1812/1 large 8 bust half in an ANACS VF35 holder. Any grade. DNC. PCGS called it cleaned. Damn.

So a dealer-friend bought it, then cracked and submitted it raw. It upgraded to XF40 and sold immediately. Just like that...a $14k profit.

I'm not sure that proves anything but I wouldn't spend the money for a show walk-through unless there was a very good reason (not just a hope that the graders are more lenient).
Lance.

Ouch ..

Well, it's a lot of hocus-pocus. I've seen enough over and undergraded coins. I leave it to those who have the patience, disposable funds.......and the time.


Leo

astrorat

Originally posted by: lkeigwin

Originally posted by: oih82w8

Originally posted by: lkeigwin
In April, at the Vegas members-only show, I tried to cross a scarce 1812/1 large 8 bust half in an ANACS VF35 holder. Any grade. DNC. PCGS called it cleaned. Damn.

So a dealer-friend bought it, then cracked and submitted it raw. It upgraded to XF40 and sold immediately. Just like that...a $14k profit...

Lance.

Do you happen to know of the certification number (16820128 by chance?) and are there images avaliable for us to see?

It was an ANCS 40 that ended up a PCGS 45. Sorry. Here's the coin.
Lance.

I think PCGS was correct the first time ... cleaned. It must have been given mercy "back at the shop" since it is such a rare and in-demand die marriage. Sorry you were not the recipient of the higher grade.

valente151

Originally posted by: BryceM
There is a line of thinking that goes something like this: The best graders are the ones who usually work the shows. The best graders are usually less conservative, and willing to go out on a limb to "make" a big coin. At a show, at least at first, the best graders are well-rested, in a new environment, and willing to "make things happen."

Some of this makes sense to me, and most of it is just conjecture. At the end of the day, the guy who can train himself to see coins like the pros and present really nice coins to the graders is the one who, over the course of thousands of coins, over many years, is most likely to win at the crackout/regrade/upgrade arbitrage game.

This is probably one of the wisest statements I've read on this forum regarding grading. Thats why you see so many of the top pops and high grades with show cert numbers. Not because they're looser, but because they're ballsier.

Barndog

my experience has been very favorable with submitting coins at shows with next day/same day grading. VERY favorable.